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Eurogamer: NX = portable w/ carts, detachable controllers, Tegra, TV Out, no BC, Sept

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Baleoce

Member
How are they even going to approach internal storage and digital libraries with this? External drives don't seem a valid option this time around. Is all of the internal storage going to be on the handheld part of the device? If so, what will the maximum size be? Or will there be some kind of data exchange feature between the handheld and the dock?
 

Lucifon

Junior Member
How are they even going to approach internal storage and digital libraries with this? External drives don't seem a valid option this time around. Is all of the internal storage going to be on the handheld part of the device? If so, what will the maximum size be? Or will there be some kind of data exchange feature between the handheld and the dock?
Sd cards? 3ds uses them. Microsd in this case potentially, even smaller and plenty of tablets / phones use them.

That's assuming game file sizes aren't as big as current consoles though.
 
I did it for you quickly

NXPortable.jpg


Wuold be the size of a Vita when buttons out, smaller when slided in i guess.

No more Slid pads

Come up with some low profile sticks that actually work

Vita got damn close and has decent sticks
 

fernoca

Member
I do have moticed across this and other forums, that many disappointed and even pissed off at cartridges, are thinking of Nintendo 64 32MB vs. 650MB PSone discs.

Not aware of SD cards and other forms of solid state drives that can hold more, have faster speeds and not recquire installations compared to Bluray discs.
 
Blu Rays in a portable device sounds great though

I got a cheap, og PSP a few months ago to play Crisis Core and the whirring noises it makes freak me out. I'm always worried I'm going to get bumped while playing and scratch the disc, or something. Now imagine that with something even bigger. Cartridges on a handheld is the way to go. Better performance, more convenient, not oversized... less nerve-wracking.
 

tebunker

Banned
I tried looking up any info on the x2 and it seems barely nonexistent apart from a very small amount of info for something which may not even end up being the x2 for consumers products. Seems odd for this to be in a March console doesn't it? Especially considering Nintendo have never really been at the forefront of their internal hardware.
Yup odds are it is a custom buld that incorporates a lot of Nvidias advanced tech they've developed over the last few years. So not quite an X1 and maybe closer to an Xbox One.


Again though price and how stuff runs in handheld cs potential docked mode.
 

ZeroX03

Banned
See, this is what ya'll dont understand. The same teams that made all the Pokemon games are gonna keep making Pokemon on the NX. Gamefreak is barely a 100 employees cranking these games out every couple of years.

The next "HD Pokemon" is gonna look a lot like this.. It will not look like the Witcher or Ni Ni Kuni or whatever fantasy "Mainline Console Pokemon" ya'll dreamed of

I'm not going to pretend it'll look mind blowing, but some of those Pokemon models at higher res with good aliasing would look lovely. Oh and a solid fucking frame rate.
 

Neiteio

Member
240p isn't HD. But if you make sun and moon scale to 720p it would look as a completely different game.
I think Sun and Moon-style art direction would look pretty nice in 720p HD with anti-aliasing, high-res textures, texture filtering, improved lighting, etc.
 
Hm, but what would be the point of cartridges?

Read:

Well, it's a handheld, so it's not feasible to put a giant disc drive in it.
- Disc drives take up a lot of space and they're fragile. Not something you'd want in a portable system
- Cartridge is much faster than cheap Blu-Ray disc drives or Nintendo's proprietary Optical Disc
- Cartridge is not anywhere near as limited by space or cost as it used to be
Cartridges
-Hardware lacks moving parts (smaller, durability)
-Smaller size too
-Can be up to 2-4 times the size if discs
-No forced installations
-You can save data on them
If you mean "what's the point behind cartridges", then they are physically smaller, faster, infinitely more durable and don't require a huge, battery-sapping optical drive to operate.
 

Ogodei

Member
Finally caught up.

Power/Size/Price/Battery Life are the four variables (in that order of importance) that will determine whether this is a success or a disaster:

Power: needs to at least look like 1st gen X1/PS4 games at the lower resolution (similar to how Vita wasn't actually as strong as PS3 but if you squinted down to Vita's resolution the difference was negligible). This is also important for being in the porting loop. Obviously there will be a difference in quality but they can't have a Wii situation where the NX version (when there is one) is obviously a completely different game.

Size: this is where the detachable shoulders weirdness comes in. Ergonomics are going to be a huge consideration and we can't really speculate until we see it and some journos get it in their hands.

Price: The big question here is whether there are multiple forms (handheld only and handheld/dock, or handheld/dock only) to make things more accessible to the consumer or not.

Battery Life: People's expectations have been lowered on this one over the years but an outlier in either direction (outstanding/abysmal battery life) could help or hurt them here.
 

Pachael

Member

The Nvidia Shield is Android based so I could see a situation where future Nintendo/DeNA/other Android mobile games will be ported / recompiled to work with NX - use the MyNintendo account to link cloud saves and everything so you can Miitomo on the phone or on the NX big screen (they need to cater for landscape first, but why not)

Other Android games I'm not so sure since IAPs etc. would need to go through Google, wouldn't they.
 

wenis

Registered for GAF on September 11, 2001.
Whew, this... This is not the direction I wanted. Gunna wait a good year after release to see what happens to this thing. My WiiU will hold me over.
 
See, this is what ya'll dont understand. The same teams that made all the Pokemon games are gonna keep making Pokemon on the NX. Gamefreak is barely a 100 employees cranking these games out every couple of years.

The next "HD Pokemon" is gonna look a lot like this.. It will not look like the Witcher or Ni Ni Kuni or whatever fantasy "Mainline Console Pokemon" ya'll dreamed of

But this is a new engine that would actually scale to HD pretty well IMO.
 
240p isn't HD. But if you make sun and moon scale to 720p it would look as a completely different game.

I'm just saying anyone expecting the next Pokemon to look even remotely like this or some current gen shit is in for a rude awakening. Its gon be the same squad at Gamefreak making the same handheld style games they always do, just with a little extra sheen to it.
 

Neiteio

Member
I agree to your first part, I think we are saying the same thing. But to call me archaic when that's how tech industries work is seriously insulting. Nvidia trumped AMD in the past, and it took AMD a long wise to finally make a product that people wanted. And it something that does compete price/performance wise with the other company.

So why can't Nintendo take their heads out of their ass make the company changes that other companies make over time when they fuck up, and make a splash in the console ring?

How is capitalizing on a failing brand such as Xbox being archaic? If anything chasing the mobile rush is something that has shown it's very short lived with 18% stock decline they had.

Building a long lasting audience is what they should be doing not chasing casual audiences who are not the same repeaters as core gamers. So they are making a device essentially that is competing in two/three different facets?

Mobile/Apple devices, home consoles, dedicated handhelds.

I guess if they want to just be like wii and sell the device and in a few years forget about meaningful long lasting software and services.


If this is what the NX is it A) is a change like you are asking for and B) not really chasing any mobile rush, as Nintendo are still planning dedicated mobile apps for that.

Capitalizing on "the failing Xbox brand" is archaic and foolish because it ignores why the Xbox brand is "failing" in the first place and assumes that Nintendo can just step in with zero brand recognition or cache with that audience and get people to drop their PCs, Playstations and Xboxes because...they're Nintendo? Like do they just snap their fingers? That's what I find archaic. Nintendo can't compete in that market. It's like expecting Blackberry to release an OS in 2016 and magically compete with Apple and Android. It seems to me that you (and others) think the only way for Nintendo to be successful is as a traditional console company and that simply doesn't jive with reality. People are stuck in this really narrow vision of things, like there has to be 3 hardware companies at all times, and you have to have third party support and you have to have first party exclusives and you have to have a traditional controller and if you fail you have to go third party because that's what Sega did and if you aren't doing those things you are fucking up because that's just the way things have always been!
 

Feep

Banned
Few claimed that the Surface tablet was a halfassed laptop. The Surface Pro was always shown as a souped up tablet. The claim that it's a half assed tablet and a half assed laptop is more associated with the Surface book.
Literally almost every single review of the two originals brought up this argument. Seriously.
 
Is Nintendo really expecting that people want to play mobile games on their TV? Cause I rather use my phone for that if I want mobile games at all. And I bet I am not the only one. That is not going to be enough reason to get one, is it? Handheld games on your TV sounds cool if the resolution is on point.

But I'm wondering, didn't Ninty at one point say developers would be able to easily port their games to their new system? Because they didn't want to make the same mistake again? I do recall that. That would mean the device that improves the NX could be reality.
 

jj984jj

He's a pretty swell guy in my books anyway.
Oh wow, I never thought Nintendo would actually do a hybrid. Even if the underlying hardware was the same I still thought they'd try to sell two separate SKUs to the masses to keep the value difference between a home console and portable. I'm really curious to see how Nintendo will sell this idea. It seems like an even more insurmountable task than even selling the Wii U. Can they even sell games for more than $40?
 

Enduin

No bald cap? Lies!
I did it for you quickly

NXPortable.jpg


Wuold be the size of a Vita when buttons out, smaller when slided in i guess.

I could live with this, but definitely needs D-Pad though.

Screen, et all, would be crazy tiny when the controllers are detached. Not a whole lot of space in there for everything, like a decent battery.
 
So y'all think they'll sell the handheld by itself for around $250-300 and if the home dock actually does give it a small boost in performance, sell it separately for $100?
 

Jubenhimer

Member
He also said:

IWATA: Last year we also started a project to integrate the architecture for our future platforms.

What we mean by integrating platforms is not integrating handhelds devices and home consoles to make only one machine.

What we are aiming at is to integrate the architecture to form a common basis for software development so that we can make software assets more transferrable, and operating systems and their build-in applications more portable, regardless of form factor or performance of each platform. They will also work to avoid software lineup shortages or software development delays which tend to happen just after the launch of new hardware

Exactly. This is why I have a hard time believing this because it completely goes against what has already been laid out. It doesn't add up, and no "credible" website is going to convince me otherwise.
 
Rösti;211456173 said:
With this talk about cartridges/cards, feel free to take a look at Nintendo files patent application for stationary game console without optical disk again. Can perhaps be used for comparisons, mock-ups.

They never actually call it a console, iirc. And it can transfer hdd data over different speeds/ connection types. the way I see it it could describe the same device that fits the SCD patent when using the information resources angle rather than the processing power angle. Download stuff via your home connection onto stationary HDD fridge instead of worrying about limited mobile storage.
 

Thraktor

Member
Regarding all the questions about cartridges, here are excerpts from two posts I made about the matter recently enough:

Modern mask-ROM based game cards (as we're hardly talking about N64 style cartridges here) would have the following advantages:

- Considerably higher sequential read speeds than discs, and matching (or potentially exceeding) HDD sequential reads
- Several orders of magnitude higher non-sequential read speeds than either discs or HDDs
- Capacity at least matching BD-ROM, probably exceeding BD-XL in the long run
- Game card slot is a far cheaper component than a Blu-Ray drive
- Removing the disc drive means a much smaller console, which reduces logistical costs considerably
- Removing the disc drive means removing the most common point of failure in the console, reducing warranty cost
- Games can be run directly off the game card, without mandatory installs
- No mandatory installs means no need for a large capacity hard-drive, and a lower-capacity, but faster, pool of flash memory can be used instead
- No HDD means a smaller console, and further reduced logistical costs
- No HDD means removing the second most common point of failure, so more reduced warranty costs
- If both home console and handheld share the same library, customer confusion is reduced considerably if they use the same game media
- If both home console and handheld share the same library, logistical costs and inventory risk are heavily reduced by shipping a single version of the game rather than two separate versions

Based on the trajectory of game card capacity from DS and 3DS, 128GB cards should be technically feasible in 2017 (although, presumably, most or all games would ship on much smaller cards). From a technological perspective, game cards are superior to discs in every single way. The only negative against them is the cost of the media itself, but unless someone here works for Nintendo or Macronix, none of us have the slightest idea what that cost would be, and it's entirely possible that the positives above (including substantial savings on the console itself) could make it a sensible financial decision, even accounting for a need to part-subsidise the cards for third parties.

[...] how fast would the game cards be?

From my reading of it (and I'll admit a complete lack of expertise in this area), the answer seems to be "pretty much as Nintendo wants (or is willing to pay for)." Nintendo don't use flash memory in their game cards, but rather use ROM (or more specifically a custom variant of Macronix XtraROM). ROM behaves quite differently to NAND flash, because unlike NAND, where all data comes through a controller chip, which has to handle wear levelling, block management, caching, etc, when you read data off a ROM game card you're pulling data directly off the ROM chip itself. This makes ROM speed a pretty simple calculation based on the speed of the chip and the interface to the chip (much like RAM).

Macronix's 45nm XtraROM can currently achieve a read cycle time of 25ns (or 40MHz), and, going by past trends, we could expect their upcoming 32nm XtraROM to hit around 16ns (or 62.5MHz), which is what would almost certainly be used if Nintendo were to go the game card route with NX. On a 16-bit parallel interface, that would give Nintendo 125MB/s sequential reads, and although it's tricky to estimate IOPS values (strictly speaking they're only OPS on ROM), the RAM-like interface and low access latency means you should be able to get close to peak read speeds with random access patterns. For 4K random reads (a typical measure) you'd be looking at possibly 25,000 IOPS.

If they switched to a serial interface, the bandwidth could push up much higher. With 32-bit reads over an 8-bit, 250MHz serial interface they could get 250MB/s sequential reads and potentially 50,000 IOPS. Even 64-bit reads over a 500MHz interface, giving 500MB/s sequential and 100,000 IOPS would probably be technically possible if Nintendo wanted it. Moving to higher speed interfaces would certainly add to the cost, but only by a fairly small amount, and the matter will largely be a question of what Nintendo feels is enough. Given that a 16-bit parallel interface places the game cards firmly above PS4 and XBO's internal HDDs in terms of performance, that may well be enough for Nintendo.
 
The hardware that runs the games would need the cartridge. Your phone would simply be the screen.
This seems really foolish imo. If the phone is just being a screen and not doing any processing it's a waste, but if it is doing processing that's too reliant on the phone. The Sony XPeria Play NX Adaptor? NX controller lighting adapter edition? Please have a smartphone of these dimensions to play any of the games? Would you have to buy a special adaptor to plug your specific phone into the dock?

Makes no sense at all.
 

jstripes

Banned
Is Nintendo really expecting that people want to play mobile games on their TV? Cause I rather use my phone for that if I want mobile games at all. And I bet I am not the only one. That is not going to be enough reason to get one, is it? Handheld games on your TV sounds cool if the resolution is on point.

But I'm wondering, didn't Ninty at one point say developers would be able to easily port their games to their new system? Because they didn't want to make the same mistake again? I do recall that. That would mean the device that improves the NX could be reality.

This is more like being able to play console games on mobile. Development will be focused on one platform rather than two.
 

Baleoce

Member
Sd cards? 3ds uses them. Microsd in this case potentially, even smaller and plenty of tablets / phones use them.

That's assuming game file sizes aren't as big as current consoles though.

I don't think game install sizes will be too dissimilar. Monster Hunter 3 Ultimate was a pretty hefty install size on the Wii U.
 

JackHerer

Member
Kinda conflicted about this.

I'll certainly buy it to play Pokemon but as a home console this doesn't excite me and as a handheld I worry it will be too bulky and awkward. The full on hybrid idea seems like a huge gamble for them. 3rd party support will probably be worse than Wii U.

Nintendo worrying about copycats on this doesn't make much sense... Who's going to copy this?
 
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