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Will Final Fantasy VII's Re-introduction (Remake) Be Praised For Diversity)?

SOLDIER

Member
As you may well know, there are a lot of discussions and criticisms for more diverse representations in today's videogames, such as more female leads, minority leads, female minorities, etc.

This has led to some criticism over Final Fantasy XV, which is sticking with an all-male party, while the few female representations showcased so far have led to further debates:

ffxv-176808.jpg


How FFXV turns out in the end is a whole other story, as I wanted to make this thread to analyze the next major release from the company: the highly anticipated remake to Final Fantasy VII:

final-fantasy-7-cast.jpg


Obviously, FFVII already has countless fans who have played the original ad nauseam that are already looking forward to the Remake. The question, instead, is how will a modernized FFVII appear to a new generation of gamers who have never played the original and/or are only vaguely aware of it?

Frankly, I can't help but find the timing of the FFVII Remake to be an interesting one, as the main cast of characters can potentially gain newfound appreciation and acclaim for their diversity. Let's take a look at a few examples:

1. Barret: A black male party member in a JRPG. Amazingly (and almost depressingly), this is every bit as unique a concept now as it was back in 1997. There have been a couple of other candidates in the past (such as Sazh in FFXIII), but what makes Barret stand out is just how important he is to the main story: the iconic opening mission that has Cloud and company bomb a reactor was entirely orchestrated by Barret as the leader of AVALANCHE. He also has an ongoing backstory that is one of the most mature and heart-breaking ever seen in Final Fantasy, if not RPGs period. While it is true that he was originally localized to speak in a then-stereotypical manner, we can assume the Remake will scale down on this considerably.

2. The Ladies: Two of the most iconic videogame heroines of all time (and also Yuffie, who is terrific and criminally underappreciated in her own right), Tifa and Aerith both play major roles in FFVII's story, and both bring something unique to the table. For one thing, their contrasting designs should satisfy both kinds of players: those who want a modestly dressed heroine, and those who don't mind a little bit of sex appeal so long as it's handled in a reasonable non-Cindy approach. Regardless of which one is your favorite, both Tifa and Aerith take up the main heroine role and have a big influence in the development of the main character Cloud. Though there are a few unfortunate sequences from the original game that plague both girls at various points in the story, there is the hope and expectation that the Remake will alter/remove said moments in order to allow both of these great heroines shine for a new audience.

3. Subversion of Tropes: Another thing that makes the FFVII cast so fondly remembered is the way they defy your expectations, rising above their character designs and base personalities. Barret isn't just a lumbering, almost comic relief character, he has his own personal demons and a drive to make the world a better place for his daugher, even if he has to resort to abhorrent methods to achieve that peace. Tifa isn't just a super-attractive bar owner who pines for the male lead, she's also a capable fighter who reflects deeply on her own character flaws and whether the group is doing more harm than good for the planet. Also, she tends to rescue herself out of most situations, rarely becoming a damsel in distress. Aerith, despite appearing to be a more modest and innocent heroine, is frequently more open about sharing her thoughts and often acts impulsively for the sake of her own wants. And finally there's Cloud, the poster boy for jaded spiky-haired bad-ass characters, but is in fact a deeply troubled introvert who tries to play a role that hides his true insecurities (and mental instability).

4. Non-human leads: You also have a talking cat/dog creature and a robot cat riding on top of another robot cat. Remember when JRPGs had unique and wacky party members?

What do you think? Will the re-release of FFVII for a modern audience gain newfound praise and admiration for its progressive cast? Can Square manage to handle these characters without resorting to some of their old ill-conceived representations?
 
I don't think it'll be praised since it's a remake and these characters have existed for nearly 20 years but it will be refreshing to have a such a diverse casting coming off of FFXV for many players.
 
So we have racial stereotype Barret and titty mc tittersdaughter Tifa. Plus some white guys and girls. Yeah, I don't really think so.

At least there's a traitorous cat

I agree though tha Yuffie is awesome. Best FF7 girl
 
So we have racial stereotype Barrett and titty mc tittersdaughter Tifa. Plus some white guys and girls. Yeah, I don't really think so.

At least there's a traitorous cat

Was expecting this comment and largely agree. However, I hope both those characters are expanded on and better fleshed out this time round.
 
It depends on how well they handle the writing and localization, quality voice acting (and direction!).

Barrett was pretty fucking embarrassing, even in 1997. If they can make him look less like he was written by a Japanese guy whose experience with black people was seeing the A-Team once, it'll be a huge improvement.
 

Cru Jones

Member
I think Barret was handled terribly. You address it in your post, but kind of dismiss it under the assumption that they'll remove the stereotypes. I'd like to believe that'll happen, but I'm not holding my breath.

IMO, Final Fantasy 6 has a much stronger female lead than any of the women in 7.
 

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
Barret acted like a damn clown a lot of the time in the original game, like how Japanese folk imagined 90s black people to look and act like. It didn't help that the localization was very terrible and generally did a lot of stupid decisions some remember fondly but i just shake my head at.

I'm looking forward to seeing a new spin on his character in particular. The others i think will be done justice already.
 

SOLDIER

Member
It depends on how well they handle the writing and localization, quality voice acting (and direction!).

Barrett was pretty fucking embarrassing, even in 1997. If they can make him look less like he was written by a Japanese guy whose experience with black people was seeing the A-Team once, it'll be a huge improvement.

Keep in mind the ebonics-style dialog for Barret was the result of NA's localization, not the original.

I would also argue that even that version of Barret was handled better than Sazh in FFXIII, who was mostly "I'm too old for this shit" comic relief and criminally, depressingly forgotten by the third game.
 

Platy

Member
If they change the fact that Barret is basicaly the last black man alive in the world of FF7 and is not treated in a good way, change how the cutscenes treat Tifa, the rape insinuations of aerith and red13 and the transphobic/homophobic clusterfuck of the honey inn quest... MAYBE ?

Also, Yuffie is a secret character that will probably be only avaliable in the later episodes
 

Aurongel

Member
I don't trust them to get Barret's dialogue right, even with almost 20 years of retrospective to work with. Even Atlus struggles in the writing department when it comes to minority characters from time to time.

If you're expecting a Japanese dev to suddenly become a torch carrier for progressivism then you're going to be sorely disappointed.
 

Burbeting

Banned
Reflecting on the Tropes vs Women episode earlier, all of the women have very similar body types in this art picture. Only separating difference is that they have different sized boobs, really. On the other hand, the men have much more variety, from somewhat slender Cloud to big and muscular Barret.
 

Mesoian

Member
No.

It might be celebrated as a return to form, but FF, in general, has largely been inclusive, which is why FF15 is so strange.

Plus there are about 2 dozen Sidney-esque bombshells in FF7 that are going to have to be tiptoed around. The Honeybee minigame is going to be.....interesting.
 
Uhm FF7 didnt exist since yesterday and i wouldnt call it a posterchild of diversity just because 1 character of the group is black because other FF games have also female and non-humans.

So No.
 

Platy

Member
Also, we don't know about preorder costumes and we all know it will have them and they will NOT be praised for "diversity"
 

SOLDIER

Member
So we have racial stereotype Barret and titty mc tittersdaughter Tifa. Plus some white guys and girls. Yeah, I don't really think so.

At least there's a traitorous cat

I agree though tha Yuffie is awesome. Best FF7 girl

It's mostly interpretation for the other characters, but Yuffie at least would count as Asian given her hometown (the last name is also a dead giveaway).

Barret's mannerisms felt less like "this is what Japan thinks black people act like" and more like "this is the strong and angry man in the party", which was a role given to previous characters like Sabin or Cid from FFIV (and let's not forget FFVII's Cid, who is an even louder and angrier party member). Barret having anger issues isn't necessarily a stereotype in itself.

And Tifa's chest only came to notice during the FMVs (which I've ranted about several times). It's not like the game would constantly pander by showcasing her curves in various camera angles.

That still didn't stop the original from having some gross sequences surrounding all three ladies, including the fact that at different points in the story they are all threatened with rape. There's also the bit with Cloud rummaging Tifa's draw to steal her panties.

I think it's safe to say most of that won't be returning in the Remake.
 

anaron

Member
If they change the fact that Barret is basicaly the last black man alive in the world of FF7 and is not treated in a good way, change how the cutscenes treat Tifa, the rape insinuations of aerith and red13 and the transphobic/homophobic clusterfuck of the honey inn quest... MAYBE ?

uh what

Evil scientist wanting to breed sole surviving specifies is clearly presented as fucked up in the game.

And how is the honeybee segment transphobic?
 

Mesoian

Member
Also, we don't know about preorder costumes and we all know it will have them and they will NOT be praised for "diversity"

To be honest, I'd be shocked if those costumes went beyond "FF7: Advent Children Outfits, Crisis Core Outfits".

It will be both the minimal effort and not what we want at the same time. We won't be getting Bikini Tifa. Gotta save that shit for the Golden Saucer.

Remember the Golden Saucer guys?

This remake is gonna be INTERESTING.

And how is the honeybee segment transphobic?

There are ways of doing the gag of Cloud dressing up as a woman and looking better than his female compatriots to the point where a local mob boss and pimp tries to rape him and have it be funny.

I don't trust Square to know how to do that.

I mean out of 7 playable human characters, only one of them isn't white, so

it's better than XV but eh

To be fair, one of them is as close to a native American as you can read about in books.

He's also a dog.

Take that as you will.
 
Are the same guys in charge who couldn't mentally reconcile that Europeans wanted female party members with the feedback they got that XV's Cindy was over-sexualized?

Then no.
 
Uh, I wouldn't go nuts with your Barret assumptions. I do hope they'll retranslate from scratch, but we'll see.

Also, it's depressing just looking at how great the artwork was and realising they're going to make it into some bland crisis-core style rubbish for the remake.
 

Platy

Member
And Tifa's chest only came to notice during the FMVs (which I've ranted about several times). It's not like the game would constantly pander by showcasing her curves in various camera angles.

...because they could not

0ZLsOyC.png


But they already shown that the remake will have the FMV models being used everywhere so ....
 

wtd2009

Member
I think Barret was handled terribly. You address it in your post, but kind of dismiss it under the assumption that they'll remove the stereotypes. I'd like to believe that'll happen, but I'm not holding my breath.

IMO, Final Fantasy 6 has a much stronger female lead than any of the women in 7.
If we take how they presented him in the trailer I think it's fair to expect that they have made some major adjustments. I guess, for me, question is whether they can find some middle ground that seems relevant while still honoring the original character concept to some extent. I don't think they'll be able to satisfy everyone, but it seems clear at least to me that they have made it a priority.

Agreed about ff6 leads. Though I still think there is a lot to work with between yuffie, aerith, and Tifa.

Don't let me down, SE.
 

SOLDIER

Member
We won't be getting Bikini Tifa.

I'd honestly be surprised if we didn't get Bikini Tifa.

Not that that's a bad thing, as long as she isn't the exclusive poster child for the game's fanservice. A summer outfit for Cloud would absolutely sell just as much.

It would be nice if the Remake finally addressed the often-ignored debate of whether Tifa has a scar hiding under her cleavage:

800px-DF_Tifa.jpg
 
Since I've never played a JRPG with all-male cast I'm not bothered by this choice.
In FFX2 we had an all-female cast to play with, and despite all the critics I loved the game. I don't see the gender of the protagonists limiting my enjoyment, I just hope the game is good.
 

Ray Down

Banned
Uh, I wouldn't go nuts with your Barret assumptions. I do hope they'll retranslate from scratch, but we'll see.

Also, it's depressing just looking at how great the artwork was and realising they're going to make it into some bland crisis-core style rubbish for the remake.

Can't wait till everyone favorite character from that game to be shoe horned in!
 

anaron

Member
Uh, I wouldn't go nuts with your Barret assumptions. I do hope they'll retranslate from scratch, but we'll see.

Also, it's depressing just looking at how great the artwork was and realising they're going to make it into some bland crisis-core style rubbish for the remake.
The original style is so perfect.

whatever, it will help seperate things further from the great original to the ugliness of the now.
 

SOLDIER

Member
Are the same guys in charge who couldn't mentally reconcile that Europeans wanted female party members with the feedback they got that XV's Cindy was over-sexualized?

Then no.

It's not, actually.

So far the only carryover from the FFXV team is Roberto Ferrari, who designed Cindy.

Yeah, I know, not entirely encouraging, but so far he seems to be doing it right judging by Jessie.

FFVIIR_Jessie.jpg
 

Vlaphor

Member
I've said this before, but if they want to do Barrett better, then do him as a character you could see Michael Jai White playing.

I've also said that Tifa should be be fanservicey as possible, but she should also have her Advent Children costume as an option as well.
 

Mesoian

Member
No....absolutely not. Go back and play FFVII.

The sad thing about the point of the OP is that in 2016, having playable female characters is enough for most people. That's the end all be all of diversity. FF15 isn't diverse because it MIGHT not have playable women, but all other FF's are EXTREMELY diverse because they do, to the point where they should be put on a pedestal.

Meanwhile, when black people were in a RPG that wasn't ultra realistic, there would usually be some sort of mammy stereotypes being used to differentiate. Kiros in FF8 was the first black character who didn't immediately scream "GIANT BLACK 70's STEREOTYPE HERE!!!" that I can actively think of in my mind.

So no, FF games aren't bastions of diversity because you can play as a woman in them. It's just for a lot of people, female inclusion is their last stand because when you get that, your argument is made and you can stop.
 
I'm interested to see whether the transvestite/Honey Bee Inn quest is in the game. Doesn't it get implied Cloud has sex with men at least twice in that segment?
 

Platy

Member
And how is the honeybee segment transphobic?

The entire sequence is played as a joke about how demeaning is for cloud to do this, every single person who gives him a piece of the disguise is portrait as a weirdo, if you do the extra details you are selected which leads to : Don tried to rape him and a after that a "look, it was a dude all along" which .... is one of the worst transphobic cliches ever made (see Ace Ventura/Family Guy).

There are ways which this entire scene can work on a non offensive level, but I don't trust japanese game developers to do it considering how japan STILL sees homosexuality, transexuality and women.
 
Umm, no?

I'm still excited for FFVII remake like millions of others, and most of us never really thought hard about this subject. I read the whole first post, and the idea behind this topic is still weird.

There are people here who can reply with some deeper posts, at least.
 
No. No, I really don't. I don't think people who get onto game devs for diversity issues even have their own standards in place for what is "diverse enough" for them.
 

Psxphile

Member
I'm interested to see whether the transvestite/Honey Bee Inn quest is in the game. Doesn't it get implied Cloud has sex with men at least twice in that segment?

Honey Bee Inn was such a confusing mess, it's hard to determine just what the hell was happening during those segments. But I never came away with "they had sex/an orgy".
 

Corpekata

Banned
I feel like not even the OP is convinced by the points in the OP. It reads like you were trying to fill a word count for an essay. Half your "subversion of tropes" section is basically "Character has character arc."

I love the game and will play the remake, but this is silly.
 
2. The Ladies: Two of the most iconic videogame heroines of all time (and also Yuffie, who is terrific and criminally underappreciated in her own right), Tifa and Aerith both play major roles in FFVII's story, and both bring something unique to the table. For one thing, their contrasting designs should satisfy both kinds of players: those who want a modestly dressed heroine, and those who don't mind a little bit of sex appeal so long as it's handled in a reasonable non-Cindy approach. Regardless of which one is your favorite, both Tifa and Aerith take up the main heroine role and have a big influence in the development of the main character Cloud. Though there are a few unfortunate sequences from the original game that plague both girls at various points in the story, there is the hope and expectation that the Remake will alter/remove said moments in order to allow both of these great heroines shine for a new audience.


Isn't the bold exactly what a lot of people complain about with female characters in games? That is, the characters themselves having no growth of their own and serving only as some sort of catalyst for growth in the lead character, which is almost always male?

Regardless, I'm going to echo the sentiment that a remake of an old game like this isn't going to be scrutinized that heavily for things like diversity.
 

Ferr986

Member
To be fair, Barret didn't talk like that in the spanish version. He had regular dialogue.

I'm interested to see whether the transvestite/Honey Bee Inn quest is in the game. Doesn't it get implied Cloud has sex with men at least twice in that segment?

Nope. Weird dialogue and even weirder translation, but there's no rape and sex or anything like that.
 

Sakujou

Banned
i have to disagree. i remember when sazh was introduced a lot of people( i think white supreme self proclaimed hardcore ff fans) called out that sazh has to get out of ff13. pretty shocking, to see people freak out over one character in final fantasy. and sazh wasnt the first black character in the series.

i dont care about the cast of characters, since japanese games are always a bit goofy, which i like. as long as the game is good, i dont care, if i play a transsexual, a gay or a handicapped person.

japanese games have a nice approach to that. i dont see our society or in this context videogamers nowadays being that grown up to deal with this.


why was it easier in the 90s to have something like this, than.... TODAY?
 
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