Yautja_Warrior
Member
980 Ti is close to a 1070 but a 1080 has a fair bit more power, nothing mind blowing though, all 3 are solid GPU's.
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[Digital Foundry] New Scorpio Spec Leak: ESRAM Gone, GPU Features Revealed
- Thread starter Hoo-doo
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980 Ti is close to a 1070 but a 1080 has a fair bit more power, nothing mind blowing though, all 3 are solid GPU's.
Because the games are being built around Xbox One/PS4 specs as the base & using a new CPU would mostly be wasted resources. even if it's a CPU that's powerful enough to allow 30fps games to be played at 60fps that will be mostly wasted when the games are already targeting 60fps. but that was me just thinking about the normal games I forgot about the fact that Scorpio will also be for VR games so maybe it will be worth it for MS to go with a new CPU.
SenjutsuSage
Banned
I still think the fact that Xbox One has that weird OS setup with the hypervisor that allows some abstraction from the base hardware might help make up for that fact, but I'm speculating. Then there's the whole UWP aspect, which I think plays a big role also.
Windows, UWP and that hypervisor setup on Xbox One will all be beneficial in some fashion to Scorpio is my belief.
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
At E3 Phil Spencer said concerning the Scorpio, ”When we started looking at Scorpio," he says, ”we asked the partners, ‘in order to build a true high-fidelity 4K game, what capabilities do you need?' That's what we designed Scorpio around. It's kind of like a [GeForce GTX] 980 card on the PC. I get the capability that I need as a developer to deliver a high-fidelity 4K game."
The 980ti is about 25% more powerful than a 980 on average from what I've seen. I'm all for powerful hardware, but let's remember loss-leading is a thing of the past. Although, I have a RX480, and it seems strange to me that they'd be running Polaris at 1300MHz+ in a console form-factor while Sony had to downclock to 911MHz.
The 980ti is about 25% more powerful than a 980 on average from what I've seen. I'm all for powerful hardware, but let's remember loss-leading is a thing of the past. Although, I have a RX480, and it seems strange to me that they'd be running Polaris at 1300MHz+ in a console form-factor while Sony had to downclock to 911MHz.
Dee Dah Dave
Member
They are probably running Vega at ~1000MHz with more CU's than the RX480. It's unlikely a console would be running at those high clocks like you see on PC GPU's.
https://forum.beyond3d.com/posts/1944136/. This is the link to the quote in question.
SenjutsuSage
Banned
Vega is much improved architecturally over Polaris. It is capable of clock speeds as high as 1500-1600MHz.
All they need to do is lower the number of CUs and just up the clock to like 1100/1200 depending on how they want to achieve it. They can also go for lower clocks with more CUs, but I think it's better they go with less CUs and pour on the clock speed.
Nice, he thinks Scorpio matches 980 TI pretty well even if it uses Polaris, and I think it's almost guaranteed to use Vega. So if Polaris, at best it matches 980Ti. If it's Vega, I'd say at best, it beats 980 Ti.
I'm more in line with this post https://forum.beyond3d.com/posts/1944183/
I just don't see how Vega could be that much more efficient than Polaris
Same with a 6TF Polaris GPU matching a 980 Ti, don't see how that's possible
980 Ti performance in a console would rock though
https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/...ssion-scorpio-4pro.57982/page-62#post-1944136
Came up as the first search result
SenjutsuSage
Banned
http://www.anandtech.com/show/11002/the-amd-vega-gpu-architecture-teaser/3
And this is just one important aspect. There are other things as well. Vega is likely much more efficient as compared to Polaris.
Well sebbbi is a dev (a really clever one at that), while the other guy is not. Either way we will see what Scorpio will deliver.
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
The 980ti is roughly 40% more powerful than a rx480. No way Polaris gets to that level.
A 1300MHz Polaris gpu with increased mem bandwidth and vram is more in line with the 980 performance Phil Mentioned.
A 1300MHz Polaris gpu with increased mem bandwidth and vram is more in line with the 980 performance Phil Mentioned.
I am not exactly sure why some keep equating the rx480 with a 6tf gpu. For one thing the rx480 is a 5.5tf gpu, for another it only has 32rops while Scorpio will almost assuredly have 64rops , and bandwidth of around 224gb/s compared to 320gb/s. They are not really comparable.
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
At standard boost speed of 1266MHz Polaris is 5.8TFLOPS. MS stated Scorpio is 6TFLOPS, this could include a Jag CPU, or mean mean Polaris at 1300MHz(5.99TFLOPS).
Not to rain on anybody's parade, but this could be a PS4Pro running Polaris at stock speeds with some memory optimizations and more VRAM.
Coming from the "avatar-like graphics" of the Xbox One, I'm not so fast to assume full Vega/Zen array. That would be great, but nothing is guaranteed.
OdysseusVA
Banned
Jaguar it is
Any 480 that works as intended is almost 6tf. Most custom 480s run at 1300mhz+ and are 6 tflops. More rops is irrelevant for performance when we know the tflops. If Scorpio uses Polaris and is 6Tflops it won't ever match a 980 TI.
I have no interest in the debate of zen or no zen, and You mentioned boost clock, its standard closk and boost clock are not the same thing. Also consoles are not desktop parts, so for one thing, they are not going to take the rx480 and stick it in a console. The gpu in the PS4P, despite similarities to the rx480 does not make it the same.The fact that they have the same amount of CUs is by the way. MS will most definitely not use the same gpu only clocked so high. Its a console and therefore heat dissipation and power management are going to be the dictating factors in the size of the gpu.
Actually rops are most assuredly an important performance metric. Why don't you stick a 16rops to a 4tf card and target 4k, let see what happens. The rx480 is handicapped to some extent by the decision to pair it up with 32rops instead of 64. Check the reviews of the 480 at 4k and see how it performs relative to the 390x.
Again, big difference in memory bandwidth and it won't be using Polaris. It will be using Vega, which has more efficiency than Polaris in just about every stage of the pipeline and represents the biggest architecture advancement AMD has had in a long time. Also, ROPs are very important, not sure what you're talking about there.
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
I'm kinda like "no sh!t" to most of what you say. What's your point? I mentioned specifically that I have a RX 480 and that I have doubts of them running Polaris at 1300MHz to achieve their 6tf.
My comments have been aimed at the idea it will match a 980ti. Also, reminding that a standard rx480 is 5.8tf, AiB boost is commonly 1330MHz. 5.8tf+OC Jag CPU is 6tf. Any Vega enhancements could be limited to memory configuration.
This could be a turd.
godhandiscen
There are millions of whiny 5-year olds on Earth, and I AM THEIR KING.
Kids don't remember Poker Face.
I'd been hearing about turd power for years, thought it was all theoretical up till now. Will be interesting to see how it works out.
Yes, your post was a turd. Glad you at least admitted it.
ROP boundedness doesn't really change much with resolution.
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
Already implented in Xbox One with it's "dual layer gpu" and "Avatar-like graphics".
SenjutsuSage
Banned
Exactly, people are making a big mistake comparing RX480 with the GPU that will be in Scorpio. They will almost assuredly be in two very different classes.
Dee Dah Dave
Member
Wait for Build...lol
GDC might bring some news, maybe.
GDC might bring some news, maybe.
Proelite
Member
If you're expecting Polaris, you're setting yourself up for disappointment. Raise your expectations.
How many levels in depth of concern trolling is this thread in.
SenjutsuSage
Banned
There's no way Scorpio's GPU won't be a full on Vega chip. You can pretty much dismiss any such thought right now. It's going to have all Vega enhancements except HBM2.
dr_rus
Member
Why are we comparing a console APU to a 980Ti already? This comparison makes so little sense that the next one is to compare Scorpio to sliced bread. For starters, it'll soon be a year since 980Ti went off production and it'll be 1,5 years of that by the time of Scorpio's launch.
CassidyIzABeast
Member
Its Vega. Else they would have dropped a R9 480X in the box and launched last holiday.
SenjutsuSage
Banned
So? And it will still be a beast of a card by any standard even when Scorpio launches. And it's being compared to the 980 Ti because it's the GPU it's most likely to perform equivalent to. And separately, it's just a really damn nice performance threshold for Scorpio's GPU to be able to meet if they can pull it off.
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
I believe it will be Vega. In response to the idea that it could be as powerful as a 980ti I was simply saying that it could be Polaris with superior memory bandwidth.
Go back and read. I say that it would be strange that ms would use a Polaris at 1300MHz, but later theorized it could be 1266MHz core paired with a jag for their 6tf.
Remember the Switch Pascal hope thread? MS has bungled hardware before, right? $100 more for 30-40% less power.
---
Phil said it's like GTX 980, not the 25% more powerful 980ti.
What could be Polaris with superior memory bandwidth? Vega? We already know the details of Vega, and that's not the case (there are far more improvements to the architecture than just increased memory bandwidth) so I'm not really sure what you're saying.
It's already been confirmed and was actually part of the leaked document that this thread was started based on, that the Scorpio GPU would be 6 TF, not the whole system combining GPU + CPU like you're implying is a possibility. Not to mention they couldn't get an overclocked desktop chip in a console due to the thermal requirements of a console.
MS has bungled hardware before? What's your point? So we should make random predictions that have no evidence so we can fit into a vague narrative based on one (maybe two to be generous) perceived mistakes that are being conflated to support the idea of MS being generally incompetent when it comes to making hardware decisions. Not to mention that we're talking about a company/organization, not a person. Companies change due to the people working for them changing. In this case, the leadership has literally changed (in addition to the team in charge of hardware) since the incidents you speak of. Also, the $100 was for the Kinect, which then got unbundled in response to consumers not wanting it.
Valkerionseven
Member
But but... teraflops! If you say that this many times in press releases your system has to be amazing right!
Seriously about what I expected to happen. I am curious to see the size of the physical console though.
Seriously about what I expected to happen. I am curious to see the size of the physical console though.
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
My point was that we shouldn't make random predictions that the Scorpio will be 25% more powerful than Phil Spencer said.
I believe it will be Vega. Just reminding people to temper expectations.
Jaguar Victory
Member
Your posts are kind of confusing is the problem. We know it can't be Polaris because there is no Polaris at 6TF in the thermal envelope desired. That means more than likely it will be a Vega GPU downclocked.
From what we know it's 6TF with 320gb/s memory which is awfully a lot like the 980ti. It wouldn't be surprising to get similar results from it on Vega architecture. Essentially 4K30 gaming with the usual sports and racing coming in at 4K60.
And those benches are all on Ultra or Very High for the 980ti btw.
Sorry for long text but someone posted this on a website. Could be bogus but who knows.
FUCKS SAKE GUYS THIS JAGUAR TALK IS NONSENSE OK ITS ALREADY BEEN GUARANTEED JAGUAR IS OFF THE TABLE AS XBOX SCORPIO IS USING ZEN PERIOD.....
SR5 RYZEN CPU @ 2.8ghz 8 cores 8 threads
AMD VEGA CUSTOM GPU @ 977 MHZ 6.2 teraflops, 12gb GDDR5x RAM 320gb per second bandwidth, WILL RUN ALL GAMES AT PC ULTRA QUALITY EQUIVALENT NATIVE 4K 60fps period.........
Listen I have absolute 100% inside factual information from a very close acquaintance of mine who has been working with an official Xbox Scorpio dev kit which his development team received from Microsoft back in November 2016. The developer is from a major 1st party studio and the information he has provided me is 100% accurate. The developer confirmed that the 343 industries developer who a few weeks ago publicly stated how the Xbox Scorpio was far more beefier than originally expected was absolutely correct as the console wasn't downgraded at all but rather the exact opposite. The Xbox Scorpio is using a brand new completely custom console only specific architecture that's using an all new rendering method which allows for an ultra efficient almost ZERO LATENCY communication between the system CPU & GPU which allows for a nearly 60% higher graphical rendering performance when compared to what's currently available on Pc graphics cards and or current game consoles. The new architecture essentially allows for the Xbox Scorpio to take 6 teraflops worth of GPU compute power and render that 6 teraflops at 60% higher than the exact same Pc graphics card in a Pc which means that the Xbox Scorpio 6 teraflops of GPU COMPUTE POWER IS EQUIVALENT TO a 9.6 teraflop Pc graphics card. The new custom architecture was developed in collaboration between Microsoft & AMD designed specifically for Xbox Scorpio and the new communication method IS 100% fully patented from Microsoft specifically for the Xbox Scorpio. The way in which Microsoft was able to develop and patent this new custom architecture was because Microsoft funded nearly 40% of the research n development costs associated with ZEN/VEGA in exchange for not jus the ability to develop and patent this brand new custom console only architecture communication method specifically for Xbox Scorpio only but in addition Microsoft also in return was able to secure an extremely cost efficient price on the new Xbox Scorpio chipsets from AMD WHICH ARE ABSOLUTELY 100% ZEN/VEGA based chipsets. The CPU inside the Xbox Scorpio is an 8 CORE RYZEN SUMMIT RIDGE R5 CPU @ 2.8ghz, and the graphics chip inside Xbox Scorpio is a custom designed AMD VEGA GPU 6.2 teraflop GPU @ 970mhz. The Xbox Scorpio is also using 12gb of gddr5x memory with 320gb per second memory bandwidth. Those specs are the exact specs and exact hardware that's currently used inside the Xbox Scorpio dev kits as they are all using early engineering samples of both the RYZEN CPU & VEGA GPU. I was also informed that currently right now developers have numerous games that are currently up and running on the Xbox Scorpio dev kits. The games that I was told so far which are being tested n benchmarked that are currently running NATIVE 4K 60fps on Xbox Scorpio dev kits are as follows.......
DOOM 4K 60fps (Pc ultra equivalent)
BATTLEFIELD 4K 60fps (Pc ultra equivalent)
HALO 5 (4K 60fps Xbox One equivalent)
WITCHER 3 (4K 60fps Pc ultra equivalent)
FALLOUT 4 (4K 60fps Pc ultra equivalent)
Those games are all currently running at NATIVE 4K on the Xbox Scorpio dev kits, and while they're definitely more games being tested n benchmarked internally by different development teams I was told that the ones I listed above are the only games that my sources own personal development team has seen 1st hand running NATIVE 4K 60fps.
I was informed that the reason 343 industries developer came out and publicly expressed the fact that Xbox Scorpio was far beefier than originally expected isn't because the hardware itself is beefier or upgraded but BECAUSE DEVELOPERS HAS ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA THAT MICROSOFT & AMD had developed a brand new custom architecture that's console specific for XBOX SCORPIO which is why so far apparently the system is running NATIVE 4K 60fps at the Pc ultra setting equivalent without even putting the hardware under full load where essentially Xbox Scorpio dev kits are rendering these games at NATIVE 4K 60fps with a lot of wiggle room as the hardware isn't being pushed anywhere near its full capabilities as the new architecture is the biggest jump in graphical rendering power efficiency since the Xbox 360 launched with a custom and Radeon GPU which had the first ever unified memory architecture that wasn't available on Pc graphics cards at the time which is why when Xbox 360 launched there wasn't a Pc graphics card on the market that could compete with Xbox 360 for nearly 18 months until Pc graphics cards started to adopt the new unified graphics architecture at which point that's when Pc caught back up and surpassed consoles. I was told that this time around Pc graphics cards won't be able to adopt this new architecture AS MICROSOFT HAS FULLY PATENTED THIS NEW ARCHITECTURE AS XBOX SCORPIO CONSOLE SPECIFIC which means neither Pc nor PlayStation will be able to use and or develop graphics chipsets using this new architecture as it's fully custom and designed specifically for Xbox Scorpio.
FUCKS SAKE GUYS THIS JAGUAR TALK IS NONSENSE OK ITS ALREADY BEEN GUARANTEED JAGUAR IS OFF THE TABLE AS XBOX SCORPIO IS USING ZEN PERIOD.....
SR5 RYZEN CPU @ 2.8ghz 8 cores 8 threads
AMD VEGA CUSTOM GPU @ 977 MHZ 6.2 teraflops, 12gb GDDR5x RAM 320gb per second bandwidth, WILL RUN ALL GAMES AT PC ULTRA QUALITY EQUIVALENT NATIVE 4K 60fps period.........
Listen I have absolute 100% inside factual information from a very close acquaintance of mine who has been working with an official Xbox Scorpio dev kit which his development team received from Microsoft back in November 2016. The developer is from a major 1st party studio and the information he has provided me is 100% accurate. The developer confirmed that the 343 industries developer who a few weeks ago publicly stated how the Xbox Scorpio was far more beefier than originally expected was absolutely correct as the console wasn't downgraded at all but rather the exact opposite. The Xbox Scorpio is using a brand new completely custom console only specific architecture that's using an all new rendering method which allows for an ultra efficient almost ZERO LATENCY communication between the system CPU & GPU which allows for a nearly 60% higher graphical rendering performance when compared to what's currently available on Pc graphics cards and or current game consoles. The new architecture essentially allows for the Xbox Scorpio to take 6 teraflops worth of GPU compute power and render that 6 teraflops at 60% higher than the exact same Pc graphics card in a Pc which means that the Xbox Scorpio 6 teraflops of GPU COMPUTE POWER IS EQUIVALENT TO a 9.6 teraflop Pc graphics card. The new custom architecture was developed in collaboration between Microsoft & AMD designed specifically for Xbox Scorpio and the new communication method IS 100% fully patented from Microsoft specifically for the Xbox Scorpio. The way in which Microsoft was able to develop and patent this new custom architecture was because Microsoft funded nearly 40% of the research n development costs associated with ZEN/VEGA in exchange for not jus the ability to develop and patent this brand new custom console only architecture communication method specifically for Xbox Scorpio only but in addition Microsoft also in return was able to secure an extremely cost efficient price on the new Xbox Scorpio chipsets from AMD WHICH ARE ABSOLUTELY 100% ZEN/VEGA based chipsets. The CPU inside the Xbox Scorpio is an 8 CORE RYZEN SUMMIT RIDGE R5 CPU @ 2.8ghz, and the graphics chip inside Xbox Scorpio is a custom designed AMD VEGA GPU 6.2 teraflop GPU @ 970mhz. The Xbox Scorpio is also using 12gb of gddr5x memory with 320gb per second memory bandwidth. Those specs are the exact specs and exact hardware that's currently used inside the Xbox Scorpio dev kits as they are all using early engineering samples of both the RYZEN CPU & VEGA GPU. I was also informed that currently right now developers have numerous games that are currently up and running on the Xbox Scorpio dev kits. The games that I was told so far which are being tested n benchmarked that are currently running NATIVE 4K 60fps on Xbox Scorpio dev kits are as follows.......
DOOM 4K 60fps (Pc ultra equivalent)
BATTLEFIELD 4K 60fps (Pc ultra equivalent)
HALO 5 (4K 60fps Xbox One equivalent)
WITCHER 3 (4K 60fps Pc ultra equivalent)
FALLOUT 4 (4K 60fps Pc ultra equivalent)
Those games are all currently running at NATIVE 4K on the Xbox Scorpio dev kits, and while they're definitely more games being tested n benchmarked internally by different development teams I was told that the ones I listed above are the only games that my sources own personal development team has seen 1st hand running NATIVE 4K 60fps.
I was informed that the reason 343 industries developer came out and publicly expressed the fact that Xbox Scorpio was far beefier than originally expected isn't because the hardware itself is beefier or upgraded but BECAUSE DEVELOPERS HAS ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA THAT MICROSOFT & AMD had developed a brand new custom architecture that's console specific for XBOX SCORPIO which is why so far apparently the system is running NATIVE 4K 60fps at the Pc ultra setting equivalent without even putting the hardware under full load where essentially Xbox Scorpio dev kits are rendering these games at NATIVE 4K 60fps with a lot of wiggle room as the hardware isn't being pushed anywhere near its full capabilities as the new architecture is the biggest jump in graphical rendering power efficiency since the Xbox 360 launched with a custom and Radeon GPU which had the first ever unified memory architecture that wasn't available on Pc graphics cards at the time which is why when Xbox 360 launched there wasn't a Pc graphics card on the market that could compete with Xbox 360 for nearly 18 months until Pc graphics cards started to adopt the new unified graphics architecture at which point that's when Pc caught back up and surpassed consoles. I was told that this time around Pc graphics cards won't be able to adopt this new architecture AS MICROSOFT HAS FULLY PATENTED THIS NEW ARCHITECTURE AS XBOX SCORPIO CONSOLE SPECIFIC which means neither Pc nor PlayStation will be able to use and or develop graphics chipsets using this new architecture as it's fully custom and designed specifically for Xbox Scorpio.
Pretty sure people are making those predictions based on the specs and the likely fact that it will be Vega, since it really can't be Polaris at the released specs and meet the thermal requirements of a console.
When we started looking at Scorpio, he says, we asked the partners, in order to build a true high-fidelity 4K game, what capabilities do you need? Thats what we designed Scorpio around. Its kind of like a [GeForce GTX] 980 card on the PC. I get the capability that I need as a developer to deliver a high-fidelity 4K game.
He really clearly stated there that it would be exactly like the GTX 980, I see what you mean. You're right, we should definitely temper our expectations based on that quote. Just curious, if he was thinking of the GTX 980 TI, would you have expected him to say "kind of like a 980 TI card" there?
I get what you're saying, nobody knows what is going to be in this thing, and sure it could be underwhelming to some if they're expecting GTX 980 TI level performance as it's possible that won't be the case. However, the people you've been criticizing are using scientific reasoning to make their predictions while you seem to be stuck on some vague quotes. You don't see the difference?
Will the Thrill
Banned
Yep, I don't think I'll have the urge to upgrade for quite awhile. Scorpio getting around that power would be pretty impressive to see
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
Sure, I understand where they're coming from. I can show you quotes from around *edit* Sept. when I said it would feature Zen/Vega, and that PS4Pro was using 2016 tech and Scorpio will be using 2017 tech.
I triggered on the idea it makes sense to be more 25% more powerful than a 980, but the idea it could be weaker was off the table. Not my intention to be a dick. Hopefully they will understand and let it slide.
http://wccftech.com/xbox-scorpio-amd-ryzen-vega/
Lol could any of that be possible though? Meaning the components?
Probably fud but thought it was interesting as we actually cant rule anything out unless we hear it from the horses mouth.
OdysseusVA
Banned
i get all my inside info from wccftech
Samurai G0SU
Member
I thought ppl said gdrr5x isnt possible at 320gbs?? Like its too low
For a second there, I thought I was on Reddit.
This reads like fanboy B.S. And I've seen no evidence of patent filings.
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