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"The Last Night" (Milkshake Duck incarnate) E3 Trailer [XBO/Win10/Steam 2018]

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S

Snowman Prophet of Doom

Member
nynt9 said:
Considering the developer tweeted:

"Our game will take place in a cyberpunk world where modern feminism won, instead of egalitarianism. #gamergate #notyourshield"

yes, sounds pretty explicitly against those things.
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It depends. Are there no aspects of modern feminism - whether it's rhetoric, political tactics, philosophy, or what have you - that could possibly be extrapolated as having potentially dystopic qualities if spread across the entirety of society?
 
S

sqwarlock

Member
Monarch said:
I guess I've found where our vision differ. I think that reviewing art and what they condone/support is important. It does not mean that I agree with said art when they present things I don't support. And trust me, I can see where you're coming from, since I'm regularly victim of racism. But I find it important to review and deconstruct art form whatever their message are.
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Man, I don't know. There are some pieces of art that I'd never be able to review. If someone made a movie that showed a dystopian society because the Civil Rights Act passed, I'd write it off as gutter trash immediately. But maybe that's just me and my inability to "start a discourse, you know, really listen to what the other side has to say".
 
H

HP_Wuvcraft

Banned
Well, I feel kinda shitty, I shouldn't, but I do. I informed one of my friends of Tim's bullshit, and after a lengthy conversation, he now told me that he no longer wants to push Tim's stuff.

I'm proud of him, but I also feel a bit dirty for ruining a friendship.
 
V

Vigilant Gambit

Member
Snowman Prophet of Doom said:
It depends. Are there no aspects of modern feminism - whether it's rhetoric, political tactics, philosophy, or what have you - that could possibly be extrapolated as having potentially dystopic qualities if spread across the entirety of society?
Click to expand...

Why is the developer's viewpoint being at all considered as potentially legitimate?

Why do we have to keep regarding every point of view as okay to have? It's not okay.
 
A

Alucrid

Banned
Snowman Prophet of Doom said:
It depends. Are there no aspects of modern feminism - whether it's rhetoric, political tactics, philosophy, or what have you - that could possibly be extrapolated as having potentially dystopic qualities if spread across the entirety of society?
Click to expand...

are those aspects exclusive to whatever "modern feminism" is that it demands it be singled out as such?
 
X

xxracerxx

Don't worry, I'll vouch for them.
HP_Wuvcraft said:
Well, I feel kinda shitty, I shouldn't, but I do. I informed one of my friends of Tim's bullshit, and after a lengthy conversation, he now told me that he no longer wants to push Tim's stuff.

I'm proud of him, but I also feel a bit dirty for ruining a friendship.
Click to expand...

Wait, your friendship with your friend is over or their friendship with Tim is over?
 
E

Easy_D

never left the stone age
Snowman Prophet of Doom said:
It depends. Are there no aspects of modern feminism - whether it's rhetoric, political tactics, philosophy, or what have you - that could possibly be extrapolated as having potentially dystopic qualities if spread across the entirety of society?
Click to expand...

Idk, feminism at its core is just "let women have the same rights/pay/etc as men", don't see how that could be seen as dystopian no matter how you look at it.
 
T

theCalamity

Member
Monarch said:
I guess I've found where our vision differ. I think that reviewing art and what they condone/support is important. It does not mean that I agree with said art when they present things I don't support. And trust me, I can see where you're coming from, since I'm regularly victim of racism. But I find it important to review and deconstruct art form whatever their message might be.
Click to expand...
No one is saying that you can not do it, but most aren't going to follow your example. No one has to do that and not everyone finds it important to review problematic media. They are free to disregard it. They are free to hope it fails.
 
N

nynt9

Member
Snowman Prophet of Doom said:
It depends. Are there no aspects of modern feminism - whether it's rhetoric, political tactics, philosophy, or what have you - that could possibly be extrapolated as having potentially dystopic qualities if spread across the entirety of society?
Click to expand...

When the tweet literally says #gamergate, when the dude has tweeted some nasty stuff and still follows and likes tweets from gamergate figureheads, trying to develop a charitable reading of the anti-feminist premise of the game is, uh, something.
 
M

Monarch

Banned
xxracerxx said:
Why is this the line and not supporting a movement of targeted harassment?
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Fhtagn said:
It's about how feminism winning causes a dystopia, so yes, automatically anti-feminist.

And gamergate = harassment. Anyone saying otherwise has the facts wrong or is gaslighting you.
Click to expand...

To be fair to the both of you, I'm just vaguely informed on the GamerGate events. If you have an objective summary of all it, I'm all ears (and it doesn't mean that I don't believe you when you say the GamerGate movement harrassed women).
 
S

Snowman Prophet of Doom

Member
aeolist said:
i just can't imagine anything interesting or thought-provoking coming from someone with a perspective like this. do you think a game dealing with race relations being made by a white supremacist would have anything meaningful to say, or would it more likely end up just being a bunch of bigoted garbage?
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I mean, Wagner was a virulent anti-Semite and made some of the all-time great orchestral music. It's not as though having poor or even harmful political views precludes one from having something to offer, in terms of artistic skill or creative vision, that other people can creatively, experientially, or spiritually benefit from in some capacity.
 
N

nynt9

Member
Monarch said:
To be fair to the both of you, I'm just vaguely informed on the GamerGate events. If you have an objective summary of all it, I'm all ears (and it doesn't mean that I don't believe you when you say the GamerGate movement harrassed women).
Click to expand...

You can google it for yourself. People have been banned before for "I never knew gamergate was bad! I'm just trying to figure it all out!" concern trolling. You're a grown person, you can use the internet to understand things.

Snowman Prophet of Doom said:
I mean, Wagner was a virulent anti-Semite and made some of the all-time great orchestral music. It's not as though having poor or even harmful political views precludes one from having something to offer, in terms of artistic skill or creative vision, that other people can creatively, experientially, or spiritually benefit from in some capacity.
Click to expand...

But, again, Wagner didn't embed his harmful views directly and plainly into the premise of his work, so I don't know why you're circling the wagons with this point.
 
A

Aurongel

Member
Easy_D said:
Idk, feminism at its core is just "let women have the same rights/pay/etc as men", don't see how that could be seen as dystopian no matter how you look at it.
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Its dystopian if you're of the belief that deviation from established gender roles is sinful, which many opponents of feminism assert. The dystopia angle here stems from the creator's persecution complex.

When you're accustomed to privilege and have never lived life as an underclass then visions of true equality look like... Well... The world this game depicts.
 
B

BronsonLee

Member
Monarch said:
To be fair to the both of you, I'm just vaguely informed on the GamerGate events. If you have an objective summary of all it, I'm all ears (and it doesn't mean that I don't believe you when you say the GamerGate movement harrassed women).
Click to expand...

Do your own research goon, this isn't Wikipedia
 
F

FyreWulff

Member
Monarch said:
To be fair to the both of you, I'm just vaguely informed on the GamerGate events. If you have an objective summary of all it, I'm all ears (and it doesn't mean that I don't believe you when you say the GamerGate movement harrassed women).
Click to expand...

And there it is
 
J

jack_package_200

Banned
Snowman Prophet of Doom said:
I mean, Wagner was a virulent anti-Semite and made some of the all-time great orchestral music. It's not as though having poor or even harmful political views precludes one from having something to offer, in terms of artistic skill or creative vision, that other people can creatively, experientially, or spiritually benefit from in some capacity.
Click to expand...

Except the anti-semetism isn't an integral part of Wagner's music like Soret's politics in The Last Night
 
F

Fjordson

Member
Snowman Prophet of Doom said:
Do you think this game is going to be against those things?
Click to expand...
I mean, yeah. Going by the sorts of things these guys support and certain past tweets it sounds like a shitty anti-feminism story.

Obviously the final game could be different, but going by what we know right now it's not looking too hot.

Snowman Prophet of Doom said:
I mean, Wagner was a virulent anti-Semite and made some of the all-time great orchestral music. It's not as though having poor or even harmful political views precludes one from having something to offer, in terms of artistic skill or creative vision, that other people can creatively, experientially, or spiritually benefit from in some capacity.
Click to expand...
If Wagner had made cinematic platformer video games with narratives about Jews turning the world into a dystopia I wouldn't have bought those either.
 
R

Relaxed Muscle

Member
Snowman Prophet of Doom said:
I mean, Wagner was a virulent anti-Semite and made some of the all-time great orchestral music. It's not as though having poor or even harmful political views precludes one from having something to offer, in terms of artistic skill or creative vision, that other people can creatively, experientially, or spiritually benefit from in some capacity.
Click to expand...

Was there any actual anti-semite statement in Wagner's music? I don't know, I'm asking, but from what I can tell, it isn't the case.

The dev in this case is letting his anti-feminist (sexist) ideas, impregante his work.
 
S

Simon Belmont

Banned
Snowman Prophet of Doom said:
I mean, Wagner was a virulent anti-Semite and made some of the all-time great orchestral music. It's not as though having poor or even harmful political views precludes one from having something to offer, in terms of artistic skill or creative vision, that other people can creatively, experientially, or spiritually benefit from in some capacity.
Click to expand...

He's also one of the people who is very very closely associated with National Socialism, and it absolutely informs the way both contemporary historians and contemporary musicians look at him. I'm not sure Wagner is a great example for you to pick at there.
 
A

aeolist

Banned
Snowman Prophet of Doom said:
I mean, Wagner was a virulent anti-Semite and made some of the all-time great orchestral music. It's not as though having poor or even harmful political views precludes one from having something to offer, in terms of artistic skill or creative vision, that other people can creatively, experientially, or spiritually benefit from in some capacity.
Click to expand...
wagner didn't make art about jews being subhuman
 
E

Easy_D

never left the stone age
Aurongel said:
Its dystopian if you're of the belief that deviation from established gender roles is sinful, which many opponents of feminism assert. The dystopia angle here stems from the creator's persecution complex.

When you're accustomed to privilege and have never lived life as an underclass then visions of true equality look like... Well... The world this game depicts.
Click to expand...

That's what I'm so confused about, people act as if feminism means dragging men down in the mud or some shit, but it's all about raising women up instead, everyone gets the best shit. People just don't seem to get that at times.
 
T

theCalamity

Member
Monarch said:
To be fair to the both of you, I'm just vaguely informed on the GamerGate events. If you have an objective summary of all it, I'm all ears (and it doesn't mean that I don't believe you when you say the GamerGate movement harrassed women).
Click to expand...
Basically, a woman who made a game about depression broke up with her boyfriend who was also a game developer. This drew the ire of thebless savory side of the internet and began to harass this woman and other women using rape and death threats all under the guise of "ethics in game journalism". I'm missing some stuff but that's the gist of it.
 
M

Monarch

Banned
Vigilant Gambit said:
Why is the developer's viewpoint being at all considered as potentially legitimate?

Why do we have to keep regarding every point of view as okay to have? It's not okay.
Click to expand...

It's a kind of claustrophobic way of thinking but to each his own I presume ?

theCalamity said:
No one is saying that you can not do it, but most aren't going to follow your example. No one has to do that and not everyone finds it important to review problematic media. They are free to disregard it. They are free to hope it fails.
Click to expand...

That we agree even though I'm not particulary fond of the logic at play.
 
B

brianmcdoogle

Member
Monarch said:
To be fair to the both of you, I'm just vaguely informed on the GamerGate events. If you have an objective summary of all it, I'm all ears (and it doesn't mean that I don't believe you when you say the GamerGate movement harrassed women).
Click to expand...
So you've been arguing from ignorance and twisting yourself to waste everyone's time? Cool.
 
Alebrije

Alebrije

Member
People calling this thread a witch hunt is silly.

Is good to know that if you buy this game where your money will go.

No one will judge if you buy or like he game.

Thread on a forum is not witch hunt , if most of media were now reporting this yep it could be.
 
F

FlutterPuffs

Member
theCalamity said:
Basically, a woman who made a game about depression broke up with her boyfriend who was also a game developer. This drew the ire of thebless savory side of the internet and began to harass this woman and other women using rape and death threats all under the guise of "ethics in game journalism". I'm missing some stuff but that's the gist of it.
Click to expand...
It came to a point where a number of female game devs, and Phil Fish, got out of the gaming industry entirely.
 
C

cartographer

Member
I'm just asking questions. I'm a neutral here. I don't know really about any of this but I definitely don't like harassment. I'm not sure about what GG is so could you inform me? Don't really find myself on either side.
 
SaniOYOYOY

SaniOYOYOY

Member
Monarch said:
To be fair to the both of you, I'm just vaguely informed on the GamerGate events. If you have an objective summary of all it, I'm all ears (and it doesn't mean that I don't believe you when you say the GamerGate movement harrassed women).
Click to expand...

cartographer said:
I'm just asking questions. I'm a neutral here. I don't know really about any of this but I definitely don't like harassment. I'm not sure about what GG is so could you inform me? Don't really find myself on either side.
Click to expand...



Idk, in my opinion gamergate is too messy to be called an organized movement. their hastagers probably dont even understand fully, like some of them just join to bash people around, some just for the keks, and some genuinely want a reassessment of the gaming journalism

one of those thing that you need to look for it yourself
 
S

Snowman Prophet of Doom

Member
Fenderputty said:
What aspects are you thinking of?
Click to expand...

idk, I'd say the brouhaha at Evergreen State University of late demonstrate how contemporary social justice activism can get driven to extremes. I also have problems with the critical theory/gender studies "Gender is entirely arbitrary, socially constructed, and performative, with no correlation to underlying sexual biology whatsoever, and also here's my vaguely poststructuralistic hot take on why that seemingly innocuous thing someone said is actually a perfect embodiment of their privilege and internalized ____-ism/-phobia", which seem to be somewhat what this guy takes issue with, although hitching your horse to the harassment machine that was GamerGate sure looks bad for him.
 
L

Lynx_7

Member
Damn this looks amaz- *reads thread*


giphy.gif


On the bright side, today I learned a new thing: milkshake duck.
 
M

Monarch

Banned
nynt9 said:
You can google it for yourself. People have been banned before for "I never knew gamergate was bad! I'm just trying to figure it all out!" concern trolling. You're a grown person, you can use the internet to understand things.



But, again, Wagner didn't embed his harmful views directly and plainly into the premise of his work, so I don't know why you're circling the wagons with this point.
Click to expand...

BronsonLee said:
Do your own research goon, this isn't Wikipedia
Click to expand...

FyreWulff said:
And there it is
Click to expand...

brianmcdoogle said:
So you've been arguing from ignorance and twisting yourself to waste everyone's time? Cool.
Click to expand...

Whoops ! To be more precise, I do know what the movement entails as a whole, not just the details of all of it. Chill !
 
G

Gleethor

Member
Snowman Prophet of Doom said:
It depends. Are there no aspects of modern feminism - whether it's rhetoric, political tactics, philosophy, or what have you - that could possibly be extrapolated as having potentially dystopic qualities if spread across the entirety of society?
Click to expand...
Depends. If by modern feminism you mean modern feminism, nah not really. If by modern feminism you mean "a dumb thing one person said on twitter once that I took as representative of the entire movement because I already had a skewed view on said movement" then yeah that shit can be extrapolated, sure.
 
S

Snowman Prophet of Doom

Member
aeolist said:
wagner didn't make art about jews being subhuman
Click to expand...

Yeah, but my point is that a work of art having a shitty, disagreeable, or even harmful worldview does not necessarily imply it will have no aesthetic value whatsoever. Hell, some historians DO interpret Wagner in light of his antisemitism, but that doesn't make the work, itself, any less grand.
 
T

theCalamity

Member
Snowman Prophet of Doom said:
Yeah, but my point is that a work of art having a shitty, disagreeable, or even harmful worldview does not necessarily imply it will have no aesthetic value whatsoever. Hell, some historians DO interpret Wagner in light of his antisemitism, but that doesn't make the work, itself, any less grand.
Click to expand...
But is his work literally about killing all of the Jews?
 
R

Relaxed Muscle

Member
Snowman Prophet of Doom said:
Yeah, but my point is that a work of art having a shitty, disagreeable, or even harmful worldview does not necessarily imply it will have no aesthetic value whatsoever. Hell, some historians DO interpret Wagner in light of his antisemitism, but that doesn't make the work, itself, any less grand.
Click to expand...

One thing is the interpretation of his music, through his antisemitism, another thing is political sexist propaganda masked as art like in this case.
 
M

Makonero

Member
Snowman Prophet of Doom said:
Yeah, but my point is that a work of art having a shitty, disagreeable, or even harmful worldview does not necessarily imply it will have no aesthetic value whatsoever. Hell, some historians DO interpret Wagner in light of his antisemitism, but that doesn't make the work, itself, any less grand.
Click to expand...

Mein Kampf is a literary work. Does that mean it's worthy of artistic examination? If you bought it and the money went to it's creator, would you support it?

Sometimes the thing a creator creates directly depicts what that creator believes. Art isn't some kind of catch-all excuse to do whatever you want with no consequences.
 
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