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A call for empathy – please be nice to us

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Lime

Member
For all the people who are tired of political discussions or who can’t wait to just talk about the games or who is even happy that those “SJWs and their political correctness” will disappear or who've hated people's existence on GAF, I have to tell you how I and tons of other people feel about this topic and how difficult it is to simply exist in these spaces.

Although games are great entertainment, it is also really troubling to be in this culture and here online. It can be very painful, it can hurt, it causes stress to simply exist online. When people say “I would like to see myself/others more in video games” or "I just want to play without getting called a slur", they are not trying to be combative or making stuff up out of thin air. They are talking from their own experience of rarely being seen, of being harassed online, of not being able to play multiplayer because of their identity. Imagine how it must feel to constantly being told by the people who make the games you love that you don’t exist. And if you do, you exist as the sexually pleasurable object for straight men to enjoy or as the exotic other to invade. And when you share your lived experiences and your feelings, you are met with hostility (slurs and personal attacks), with denial (“I don’t see racism, so it doesn’t exist”), with silencing (“I just want to talk about games, stop bringing politics into this”). Imagine how this must feel – to be made to feel like you are less of a person than others, and when you simply ask to be recognized for your humanity, you are met with scorn and hate.

“Stop bringing politics into this!” you might say. Like you, we also “just want to play video games”, but it is impossible to use video games as escapism for some – the same sexism and racism and transphobia and homophobia people encounter in everyday life, is the same we see in video games. We are still not the center, we are still not real characters, we are still not agents, we are just objects and side-characters who exist to help the one who already fills up so much of our everyday media. Imagine after a day where you’ve been underpaid compared to your male colleagues, where you’ve been sexually harassed by your male boss, where you’ve been called the n-word by some random person on the street, where you’ve been navigating all these white spaces in everyday life only to come home to another game with the exact same shit. Games are not an escape from reality for many, it’s the reflection and reproduction of the same oppression many face everyday.

So when we ask “can we please have more diversity in the games industry and in the games themselves?”, we are not trying to attack anyone. We are trying to share our own experiences and how it makes us feel. It is really, really hard to ignore, as it’s not like we would want to spend our limited time on earth to talk about these things.

So please. Please listen to us. It hurts us so much not to be listened to. Not to be believed. To be silenced. It hurts even more when we are attacked, harassed, threatened, and marginalized. You cannot just stand on the sideline, while we are getting terrorized for years on end. You cannot be buddies and hang out with people who spend their time stalking, harassing, and threatening us. We are actual human beings. We have lives, friends, families, feelings, thoughts. We just want to be happy. It hurts us a lot when we are met with such hostility and harassment and stalking. Why do you think we can be so angry sometimes? It’s because we are met with so much terror on us that it is almost impossible to exist and live in peace.

I’ve been harassed and threatened for being on Neogaf for almost 4 years now. Death threats, personal attacks, stalking, etc. I’ve seen people call me slurs and make fun of me. And it hurts me. A lot. I don’t want to cause pain on anyone or make anyone feel bad - if anyone ever had any problem with me, they could just contact me and tell me what they thought I should correct - I'm very open towards constructive criticism. When you say that games should just be games and we will harass and threaten you until you shut up about your experience and ignore all the testimonies and academic research on oppression in video games culture, you tell me that mine and other people’s pain is acceptable as long as you can remain comfortable. It hurts, because it’s like there is a disconnect between you and us where we are not seen as equally human and worthy of respect as yourself.

So please, next time you encounter a topic or subject where you think it’s too political and you wish these people would shut up – please, please, please consider the feelings and the experiences that others have. Please just try to listen to us. Please don't attack or harm us. It hurts a lot to be treated like this. And it hurts to be harassed and threatened. We are human beings just like you and we just want to be happy. And if you do not want to listen, at least just leave us alone.
 
Thank you. I want to talk videogames... And discuss every aspect of them. Including the ugly aspects, like this. I want to see videogames that mimic the diversity of real life, and that tell me stories of people I'll never be like.
 

Razmos

Member
Here here. It's so rare to find gaming related places on the internet where I'm not constantly seeing casual homophobia, racism, sexism.

It was what I loved about the gaming community without the shit I hate about the gaming community.

Shame That what has happened has pushed all these good people away and brought all the mouth breathers out of the woodwork
 

HariKari

Member
Shame That what has happened has pushed all these good people away and brought all the mouth breathers out of the woodwork

They were always there to some degree. They'll be dealt with in time. Right now things are in flux so people leaping into the power vacuum is to be expected.
 
Great thread. I fully agree, it's been really depressing to see basic human decency being treated as being an extremist in some parts over the last week.

Great to read you thoughts and I know I won't be scilened in trying to achieve similar goals.
 

Ultimadrago

Member
I would take this response more seriously if I didn't see you as a primary catalyst for aggravating innocent posters and a reason places like Gaming were unwelcoming in recent times. I have no problem being nice to good posters. I also don't have an issue with those being stern with posters that attempt to derail and insult neutral posters that are discussing on the forums.

Death threats and the like are never excusable, of course. Aside from that, I hope GAF does a greater job pushing against hostile posters that feel they can overtake any discussion and change topics at their whim. We'll see how mutual this respect is going forward.
 

Razmos

Member
They were always there to some degree. They'll be dealt with in time. Right now things are in flux so people leaping into the power vacuum is to be expected.
Yeah I always knew that the moderation (as harsh as people might think it was) was the only thing keeping these people away, it was a rarity to see them.

I hope you are right, but I'm worried about the next influx of Juniors
 

Wireframe

Member
I was never against political discussion, provided it was a *discussion* and not immediately shutting down any opposing views with the clearly leftist bias this board had in the past.
 

Lone Wolf

Member
I'm not staying because of many reasons. I've been threatened and harassed for too long and too much to remain here and I won't put up with it any longer. I can't bear it anymore.
You are a professional victim that lies and exaggerates to get sympathy. Your place of residence changes based on how much of a victim you want to be that day. Good riddance.
 
I was never against political discussion, provided it was a *discussion* and not immediately shutting down any opposing views with the clearly leftist bias this board had in the past.
What is your opposing view to the clearly leftist OP? "I don't believe you put up with harassment all around society"? "I don't believe you are being missrepresented?" "I don't care about your feelings"? or "I don't think you are a real person"?
There is no opposing view to this that isn't either ignorant or devoid of human decency or both.
 

Mahadev

Member
Lime, since you're very respectful in your post I'll try to be as respectful as possible too but I'll have to mention some hard truths also. People like you are the reason we can't have nice things, you were constantly word policing and derailing every discussion with your agenda.

It has become less about diversity nowadays and more about forcing your ideology to others and shoving identity in every issue, especially gaming. It's not a discussion, it's a demand, that's the problem.

As for being stalked and receiving death threats outside the forum it's fucking awful, no argument from me there. Your behavior in this forum though looked more like bullying and less like reasonable discussion about the issues you care about. Maybe if you really want to convince people you actually engage in discussion instead of treating them awfully and then hoping for the mods to ban them.
 

bremon

Member
Trying to imagine a life where posting on a forum can represent a challenge that’s too much to bear. Trying to get empathize, but...Jesus.
 

Lone Wolf

Member
What is your opposing view to the clearly leftist OP? "I don't believe you put up with harassment all around society"? "I don't believe you are being missrepresented?" "I don't care about your feelings"? or "I don't think you are a real person"?
There is no opposing view to this that isn't either ignorant or devoid of human decency or both.
The problem was you had to believe 100% or you were branded as literally Hitler.
 

HariKari

Member
I'm not staying because of many reasons. I've been threatened and harassed for too long and too much to remain here and I won't put up with it any longer.

I think you're doing the causes you're clearly passionate about a great disservice by not staying and engaging with people. But you know your own tolerance for catching flak much better than I do so I can only wish you well.
Stay frosty, Mechwarrior.
 
It would have helped if this was written without the passive aggressive condescending tone. Since it wasn't, yeah, no thank you.
 

Shifty1897

Member
So please, next time you encounter a topic or subject where you think it’s too political and you wish these people would shut up – please, please, please consider the feelings and the experiences that others have. Please just try to listen to us. Please don't attack or harm us. It hurts a lot to be treated like this. And it hurts to be harassed and threatened. We are human beings just like you and we just want to be happy. And if you do not want to listen, at least just leave us alone.

You've got to be joking.

LiberalGAF doxxes, jeers and harasses centrists and right leaning users, labeling them and lumping them into a neat little pile you called racist, sexist, GamerGaters, and white supremacist, and as soon as the climate changes you ask for empathy?

I tend to avoid political discussions on GAF ever since I got called every name in the book for revealing I voted for Gary Johnson, so you won't here anything from me, but I have no empathy for you. This is digital karma and respect goes both ways.
 

Trey

Member
Lovely statement. Even more, many of these people denying minority voices and dismissing their pleas with "keep politics out of this" themselves have demands and expectations from the purveyors of this hobby. They want better graphics, great deals, better hardware, more content, no lootboxes, more single player games, etc. That is fundamentally no different than a woman wanting to see better representation of her gender, or LGBT gamers not wanting to be used as a punchline. These are honest desires from your fellow gamers, and are just as legitimate as your own.

And if you want to call yourself a decent person, that requires understanding situations and sensibilities that are not your own, as Lime so loquaciously outlined. Because the bottom line is this: minorites in gaming having better representation, not being harrassed, and having a voice takes nothing away from any one else's gaming experience.

Gaming could be so much more than it currently is, let's not stand in the way of that goal.
 
Lime, since you're respectful I'll try to be as respectful as possible too but I'll have to mention some hard truths also. People like you are the reason we can't have nice things, you were constantly word policing and derailing every discussion with your agenda.

It has become less about diversity nowadays and more about forcing your ideology to others and shoving identity in every issue, especially gaming. It's not a discussion, it's a demand, that's the problem.

As for being stalked and receiving death threats outside the forum it's fucking awful, no argument from me there. Your behavior in this forum though looked more like bullying and less like reasonable discussion about the issues you care about. Maybe if you really want to convince people you actually engage in discussion instead of treating them awfully and then hoping for the mods to ban them.
The new NeoGAF in one post.

"Sure you feel scared and marginalized and have received death threats, but your tone is too demanding. We simply want to have a reasonable discussion about whether you should feel safe and welcome in gaming. If you could maybe tone down your cry for help, we'd be willing to discuss whether you are, in fact, the real bully here."

You people are hopeless.
 
Lime this is the best thread you've ever created! I have often disagreed with your sentiments in various threads but I also recognize that I have sometimes lacked empathy towards these issues. I am committed to being a better poster here and to hopefully help bring this community back to its feet.

To those I may have offended or hurt unknowingly I am truly sorry and I hope to represent myself better going forward.

We've got this GAF!
 
I was never against political discussion, provided it was a *discussion* and not immediately shutting down any opposing views with the clearly leftist bias this board had in the past.

This. It was never about a discussion, it was always about picking out who had wrong opinions and dogpiling. I mean, think about the back and forth NeoGAF had on the ACLU. Greatest thing in the world when they were fighting Trump's travel ban, gotta donate to them. Supporting free speech, including the free speech of people they disagree with and the board does a 180 and people start calling for them to be shut down.

From a gaming perspective, yes, more diversity is needed. But the suggestions that emanated from this board in regards to diversity are far and away the laziest and arguably the most damaging suggestions you can come up with. They were rooted in race swapping white characters, gender swapping male characters, making straight characters gay/bi (or lord that Geralt thread), etc. Its lazy and uncreative. If someone's race, gender, or sexual identity is core to their life experiences then trying to shoehorn them into established characters is dumb.
 
The problem was you had to believe 100% or you were branded as literally Hitler.
Remember that guy who stole a propaganda poster in DPRK, was caught and died of botulism in a North Korean prison? The time I was banned came from that, because I said he was a dumb rich white kid acting like the laws (Totalitarian or not) of different countries didn't apply to him because of his privilege, and that he'd probably be returned to the US. He died shortly after my post and I was banned 15 days for a "Tasteless and racist post".
The mod was right, and many criticised my comment.
My point is, your point is bullshit. Nobody was ever compared to Hitler here unless they were a Nazi, and normally, yes, you should believe the personal stories marginalized people tell, or you'll be a part of their problems.
 

Mahadev

Member
The new NeoGAF in one post.

"Sure you feel scared and marginalized and have received death threats, but your tone is too demanding. We simply want to have a reasonable discussion about whether you should feel safe and welcome in gaming. If you could maybe tone down your cry for help, we'd be willing to discuss whether you are, in fact, the real bully here."

You people are hopeless.


If asking for people not to be bullies is the new neoGAF then I'm glad I'm here. And what the hell does safety has to do with it? How on earth is that kind of behavior even a solution to "feeling safe and welcome in gaming"? You think Lime or anyone else is gonna convince the gaming community of anything that way?
 

HStallion

Now what's the next step in your master plan?
Haha so many people in this thread complained about the aggressive one sided nature of discourse and things like dog piles and are now looking more than a little foolish.
 

Lone Wolf

Member
Remember that guy who stole a propaganda poster in DPRK, was caught and died of botulism in a North Korean prison? The time I was banned came from that, because I said he was a dumb rich white kid acting like the laws (Totalitarian or not) of different countries didn't apply to him because of his privilege, and that he'd probably be returned to the US. He died shortly after my post and I was banned 15 days for a "Tasteless and racist post".
The mod was right, and many criticised my comment.
My point is, your point is bullshit. Nobody was ever compared to Hitler here unless they were a Nazi, and normally, yes, you should believe the personal stories marginalized people tell, or you'll be a part of their problems.
No one here has to be forced to believe anyone else based on what’s written on a gaming board. Unfortunately having that opinion was enough to label someone a Nazi. I couldn’t even tell you the definition of Nazi anymore based on who is being labeled one.
As for your banning, i don’t really disagree with what you said.
 

Croatoan

They/Them A-10 Warthog
It comes down to the golden rule. Treat others as you wish to be treated.

I have no problem with characters being whatever the developers want them to be. Whether that be a minority action hero, a bald white space marine, or a half naked warrior princess. Its their game and their vision after all.

That doesn't mean we can't be critical of design, or concept, and yes that includes the race and sexual orientation of the character. That said, the discussion around this should remain civil and not turn into a "witch hunt", or some sort of outrage where we try and get an artist fired or developer blacklisted. That is the stuff I would love to see stopped.

In my view a black woman in a Tankini is as valid a character design as Kratos. We can debate the decision to show skin or not till the cows come home, but in the end it is art, decided on by the developer.

I guess what I am getting at, is I would love to see discussion here remain friendly. For example, some people think characters like Cammy are cool, and hot, and powerful, others think she is objectification. Thats perfectly fine, but we need to learn to agree to disagree and not demonize each other.
 
I always thought Mumei did an incredible job of arguing his case on heated subjects. He was eloquent, presented a lot of supporting evidence (links), and was respectful to the people he disagreed with. It's hard to make people change. They need time and space to do it even if deep-down they know they're wrong. Shouting people down on the internet seems to only harden their views, at least in the short term.
 
The new NeoGAF in one post.

"Sure you feel scared and marginalized and have received death threats, but your tone is too demanding. We simply want to have a reasonable discussion about whether you should feel safe and welcome in gaming. If you could maybe tone down your cry for help, we'd be willing to discuss whether you are, in fact, the real bully here."

You people are hopeless.

Nonsensical straw man like this is a very good representation of the old NeoGAF. You'd have people dogpiling the guy you quoted and he would probably be too banned to call you out on this bullshit, so you'd feel like you won the discussion even though your argument makes no fucking sense.

That's why you guys feel safe in a heavily moderated echo chamber. Not because it's "humanly decent" or respectful or anything like that, but because it's easy to beat opposing views.
 
Well put and I agree. I mean sure, I am a white male from a predominantly white country so I can't say I know what it feels like to be in a minority, but I've had enough shit to deal with in my life to know what it feels like when you're very humanity is put to trial. You get tired and angry, or worse, you start to believe it yourself. In any case it can be devastating.

While I might not always see eye to eye with everyone, I always try not to offend anyone. I mean, why would I? Deliberately trying to offend somebody is just childish.

I do also believe in open discussion, yes, even the nasty subjects, but that's just me. I like challenging conversation even if it goes against my core beliefs and it doesn't mean I condone those beliefs, quite the contrary. But I also realize there is a time and place for that. And if a community deems certain subjects out of acceptable topics, I can understand that and live with it. That is why I didn't continue taking part in certain discussions after joining, know your audience and all that. I'll have to say though, I was proven wrong in a certain topic and I'm not too pig headed not to accept it.

Anyway, great post. And you'll have no hate from me at least.
 

Kimawolf

Member
Sorry you experienced so much pain Lime. We didn't agree some of the times but I enjoyed your posts. I hope you find happiness wherever you end up.
 
OP, I don't know you, I only know your username. I'm sorry you've had to tolerate abuse, and it's sad that in this day and age, we can't accept people that are different from us. As always, diversity is a good thing, and I feel that losing it is a net loss for discourse. I wish you well wherever you go.

I have a similar request, a call for rational discourse from those who may disagree with you on some part of whatever conversation you're attempting. People who disagree with some small part of your argument aren't Hilters. Empathy goes both ways. If they're advocating for your death, then yeah, you're probably not going to have meaningful conversation and move on, report them, block them, whatever. However, there are a few users here who would like nothing more than to discuss these issues. Without bullying, name calling, and blanket "there's no opposite side of this discussion that doesn't make you Hilter jr.", or "if you don't see things exactly my way, 100%, you MUST be a nazi".

Lime, since you're very respectful in your post I'll try to be as respectful as possible too but I'll have to mention some hard truths also. People like you are the reason we can't have nice things, you were constantly word policing and derailing every discussion with your agenda.

It has become less about diversity nowadays and more about forcing your ideology to others and shoving identity in every issue, especially gaming. It's not a discussion, it's a demand, that's the problem.

As for being stalked and receiving death threats outside the forum it's fucking awful, no argument from me there. Your behavior in this forum though looked more like bullying and less like reasonable discussion about the issues you care about. Maybe if you really want to convince people you actually engage in discussion instead of treating them awfully and then hoping for the mods to ban them.

The problem was you had to believe 100% or you were branded as literally Hitler.


Both of these posts fantastic.

The new NeoGAF in one post.

"Sure you feel scared and marginalized and have received death threats, but your tone is too demanding. We simply want to have a reasonable discussion about whether you should feel safe and welcome in gaming. If you could maybe tone down your cry for help, we'd be willing to discuss whether you are, in fact, the real bully here."

You people are hopeless.
This is not how you facilitate discussion (and kinda the problem some are trying to highlight).
 
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