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Halo |OT5| Believe, Again

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BigShow36

Member
Agreed.

If you've spent years of your life arguing these points and nothing's changed, you can also just move on to another series (not dismissing the validity of your criticisms, just sayin'. Plenty of fish in the sea.)

Not really. Halo was unique for the console, which is what I prefer to play on. It stood head and shoulders above every other console game when it came to skill-based gameplay, and it was incredibly popular to boot. You don't find that combination anywhere else on consoles.


Let me be explicitly clear. If you make a long angry post about a thing you are passionate about, that is just fine.

If you make a long raging, rude, mean spritied, venom-packed post intended to reach the makers of whatever game you're mad about, you are WASTING YOUR TIME. Because for every angry rage complaint, there are dozens of reasonable versions of those complaints, and for every thing you think you're definitely correct about but that, gosh darn it, those jerks just refuse to listen, there's probably a good reason it isn't so.

Also think about the reality of the things you're mad about. We have one poster in this very thread, who literally believes that graphics are a waste of time and that the game should be reduced to simple, lit geometry. He may even have a point, but we cannot sell that game, and therefore we cannot get funding or resources to build it.

But anger and rudeness are ALWAYS wrong when you are talking about a video game. If you want to be angry about something on the internet, go be angry about poverty or injustice.

I'm wasting my time regardless; nice or not, someone on a forum telling the developer that they're doing it poorly isn't going to get much heed. Why should I further waste my time mincing words when directly attacking the heart of the issue is more beneficial? I'm not here to make people I disagree with feel better about their poor decisions.


Also, remember when you banned me from Bungie because my huge thread about balance was getting too much credence from forum goers? Good times.
 

heckfu

Banned
Let me be explicitly clear. If you make a long angry post about a thing you are passionate about, that is just fine.

If you make a long raging, rude, mean spritied, venom-packed post intended to reach the makers of whatever game you're mad about, you are WASTING YOUR TIME. Because for every angry rage complaint, there are dozens of reasonable, better phrased and often more insightful versions of those complaints, and for every thing you think you're definitely correct about but that, gosh darn it, those jerks just refuse to listen, there's probably a good reason it isn't so.

Also think about the reality of the things you're mad about. We have one poster in this very thread, who literally believes that graphics are a waste of time and that the game should be reduced to simple, lit geometry. He may even have a point, but we cannot sell that game, and therefore we cannot get funding or resources to build it.



But anger and rudeness are ALWAYS wrong when you are talking about a video game. If you want to be angry about something on the internet, go be angry about poverty or injustice.

I think the government is very poor about injustice. Or that injustice is for poor people. BITCHES.



Did I do it right?
 
Im still catching up on this thread from being back from my vacation.. Im only 46 pages behind yet.. =P


But, uh, just saw the aming side thread about Sp Ops and also noticed that expertzone mentioned a total of 10 new weapons and 2 new vehicles? That seems a bit low tbh, especially with all the talk of the UNSC reverse engineering covenant and forerunner tech.. mix that with the Prometheans and I really felt we would see more new. On top of that, I swear there was an interview around or after Halo fest that said there would be more new weapons in Halo 4 than returning.. I guess that changed?

As for 2 new vehicles, I suppose the "Mammoth" is one, or does that count as a returning (elephant)... Another candidate would be that smaller white Mech thing... Still, 2 new vehicles feels just a tad low.
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
I'm wasting my time regardless; nice or not, someone on a forum telling the developer that they're doing it poorly isn't going to get much heed.

You're incorrect. We cannot, as developers, make the game you want, because you're a subset of a larger audience. But any good developer who takes the craft seriously will constantly be striving for ways to make every aspect of the game better. And sometimes ideas, or nodes of ideas, or general groundswells of opinion, do come from having a broad and balanced understanding of what the different categories of players want. Sometimes it IS possible to create bridges between those elements, but nobody is going to waste their time plowing through venom and assumption and frankly, a kind of hyperfocused entitlement, to get to good ideas, when there are plenty of good ideas - often the same ideas - better and more clearly stated.

We couldn't have an employee function who behaved like that.

Also, remember when you banned me from Bungie because my huge thread about balance was getting too much credence from forum goers? Good times.

No, I sure don't. I didn't ban many people at all. When I did, there was usually a good reason. Like rudeness. It's a private space, and we are entitled to moderate the tone of discourse. I can tell you with 100% certainty that I have NEVER banned anyone for dissent, nor popularity. Ever.
 

Akai__

Member
Let me be explicitly clear. If you make a long angry post about a thing you are passionate about, that is just fine.

If you make a long raging, rude, mean spritied, venom-packed post intended to reach the makers of whatever game you're mad about, you are WASTING YOUR TIME. Because for every angry rage complaint, there are dozens of reasonable, better phrased and often more insightful versions of those complaints, and for every thing you think you're definitely correct about but that, gosh darn it, those jerks just refuse to listen, there's probably a good reason it isn't so.

Also think about the reality of the things you're mad about. We have one poster in this very thread, who literally believes that graphics are a waste of time and that the game should be reduced to simple, lit geometry. He may even have a point, but we cannot sell that game, and therefore we cannot get funding or resources to build it.



But anger and rudeness are ALWAYS wrong when you are talking about a video game. If you want to be angry about something on the internet, go be angry about poverty or injustice.

You are the man, I wanted to talk.^^

Is Halo 4 going to be a multilingual game? Like, can we switch the language in the game or is Halo 4 so big, that this content didn't fit on the disc?

Would be glad, if you could answer that.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
Not really. Halo was unique for the console, which is what I prefer to play on. It stood head and shoulders above every other console game when it came to skill-based gameplay, and it was incredibly popular to boot. You don't find that combination anywhere else on consoles.

But if it's not the game you want to play, and hasn't been for years... I feel like it's time to cut your losses and move on or accept what is.

Look at it from my perspective. I'm a story guy, and the massive retcons of Reach were, to me, a stab in the back--coming from a franchise that had set itself apart from most others by having its expanded universe also considered canon as opposed to fan-fic throwaways (as was often the case with 90s Trek novels.)

As much as a lot of the Halo 4 campaign seems like great steps forward, I'm also upset with the lack of visual continuity, which to me undercuts the realism of the universe and effectiveness of the story.

But I can either accept it, or leave it. No one's forcing me to love Halo unconditionally forever more.
 

heckfu

Banned
But if it's not the game you want to play, and hasn't been for years... I feel like it's time to cut your losses and move on or accept what is.

Look at it from my perspective. I'm a story guy, and the massive retcons of Reach were, to me, a stab in the back--coming from a franchise that had set itself apart from most others by having its expanded universe also considered canon as opposed to fan-fic throwaways (as was often the case with 90s Trek novels.)

As much as a lot of the Halo 4 campaign seems like great steps forward, I'm also upset with the lack of visual continuity, which to me undercuts the realism of the universe and effectiveness of the story.

But I can either accept it, or leave it. No one's forcing me to love Halo unconditionally forever more.

you have no idea what they're doing to you at this very second...trust no one...
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
You are the man, I wanted to talk.^^

Is Halo 4 going to be a multilingual game? Like, can we switch the language in the game or is Halo 4 so big, that this content didn't fit on the disc?

Would be glad, if you could answer that.

Game will be localized in the normal suite of languages. Come at me Brazil Portuguese vs Portugal Portuguese!
 

BigShow36

Member
You're incorrect. We cannot, as developers, make the game you want, because you're a subset of a larger audience. But any good developer who takes the craft seriously will constantly be striving for ways to make every aspect of the game better. And sometimes ideas, or nodes of ideas, or general groundswells of opinion, do come from having a broad and balanced understanding of what the different categories of players want. Sometimes it IS possible to create bridges between those elements, but nobody is going to waste their time plowing through venom and assumption and frankly, a kind of hyperfocused entitlement, to get to good ideas, when there are plenty of good ideas - often the same ideas - better and more clearly stated.

We couldn't have an employee function who behaved like that.

You're assuming that my interpretation of how the game could/should be created never takes into account the broad spectrum of players. That's false. I know where I stand and how meaningful I am in the big picture, but that doesn't mean my understanding of the game is limited to that as well.

No, I sure don't. I didn't ban many people at all. When I did, there was usually a good reason. Like rudeness. It's a private space, and we are entitled to moderate the tone of discourse. I can tell you with 100% certainty that I have NEVER banned anyone for dissent, nor popularity. Ever.

Oh, don't take that as me being angry or bitter. I think it's pretty humorous, and it was probably a good thing because it got me to stop posting there for a while. I think you mean well and I hold no ill-will towards you for it.


But I can either accept it, or leave it. No one's forcing me to love Halo unconditionally forever more.

I love what Halo used to be and what it could be; I love it's potential. But you're right, no one is forcing me to play Halo, and I don't; I don't like what it's become. I've started playing Reach again just to get back into it for this GAF tournament, but other than that, I stopped playing Halo2/3/Reach well before their "lifespan" was through.
 
You're incorrect. We cannot, as developers, make the game you want, because you're a subset of a larger audience. But any good developer who takes the craft seriously will constantly be striving for ways to make every aspect of the game better. And sometimes ideas, or nodes of ideas, or general groundswells of opinion, do come from having a broad and balanced understanding of what the different categories of players want. Sometimes it IS possible to create bridges between those elements, but nobody is going to waste their time plowing through venom and assumption and frankly, a kind of hyperfocused entitlement, to get to good ideas, when there are plenty of good ideas - often the same ideas - better and more clearly stated.

We couldn't have an employee function who behaved like that.

Yeah well you suck and if there aren't ponies in halo 4 your an idiot because rideable ponies in a halo game would be the best thing ever. If it doesn't happen your a idiot and 343 will be a garunteed laughing stock.

No but really I agree with a LOT of the 'negative' posters have to say, for the sake of decency I wish it was all done in a civil tone i also wish it was handled better because I'm sick of the way that all discussion generated is about the tone of posts and how something was said, rather than the content of what was said which is more interesting. Unfortunately polite posts probably wouldn't generate a discussion because they won't attract attention on the Internet.

Fudsch I think the thing Is people have high hopes for halo, and are pretty invested in the series as it has been a mainstay for 10 years, If people dont like future iterations of course they will move on, but I thin the point is they don't want to.
 

CyReN

Member
I agree with Frank post, and glad they listen to the constructive criticism.

Cursed Lemon also shouldn't have made his rant almost an hour long.

No one wants to sit through that.

There is text form (shorter than the video complete text)

What I'm going to do here is to try to build a game from the ground up using the simplest principles possible, and eventually relate it to various Halo titles. I'm going to explain everything in excruciating detail. The aim of this exercise is not to push my opinion on what constitutes a competitive game, but rather to explain what the vast majority of people in this community fail to understand, which is that for every option that is tweaked, everything else in the game is affected. There also seems to be an outstanding lack of consensus as to the fundamental ideology of game design, which goes much farther than merely FPS games. To begin, let’s break all competitive video games down into their core components.


  • Risk and reward – This is the simplest concept to grasp, which is that if a player chooses to execute a maneuver that is especially powerful or effective, it should come at greater risk to the player. This can be accomplished one of two ways. The first way is to either give the maneuver a long cooldown period, or otherwise endanger/harm the player if misfired. The second way is to make the maneuver especially difficult to perform, so that it is not an ideal approach in the general flow of the game. This principle applies regardless of whether you are speaking in terms of methods of attack, or other situational scenarios.
  • Balance – All players must start on even ground (or in a loadout scenario, different but equal ground), and rely on their personal merit to gain the upper hand, wherein they will be rewarded and granted an advantage, in which case the opposing team must work that much harder to reclaim control. The environment and tools must be designed in a manner that makes gaining the advantage significantly desirable, creating an objective-based scenario, while at the same time avoids a runaway situation that prevents the losing team from ever regaining a foothold.
  • Skill ceiling – At no point should the upper limit of individual or team performance be approached, there must always be room to excel. This means molding the mechanics of the game to ensure that it allows superior players to punish their opponents in almost all instances in which they are performing correctly. This will encourage strategy as well as advocate personal skill. There should also be a multitude of options given to each player, so maintaining a presence over the entire environment for either player is nearly impossible.
  • Teamwork/skill ratio – A game should not covet either teamwork or skill above the other. If both aspects are desired and encouraged to be shown, there should be equal amounts “lone-wolfing” and equal amounts team participation. “Teamwork” in this scenario shall be the cooperation of two players in-game to accomplish a certain objective that requires both of them to be focused on the same task and coordinate themselves based on the status of the other teammate, as well as having two or more players working on isolated responsibilities. There should be value and significance in one-on-one encounters, and at the same time strength in numbers and overall team coherency.

With that said, there are certain rules that should be followed when forging the basic mechanics of a game.


  • Do not fix something by indirectly altering something else. Every alteration has far-reaching consequences, and when you choose to alter a different variable in order to fix one you feel is broken, you create unseen issues that cannot be resolved until they are thoroughly explored and tested, rendering the previous exposition of known problems pointless. Known issues are determined within a defined environment and if you isolate them and fix them on their own, then the environment remains unchanged, only the problem is resolved. It is also much easier to predict further issues when you can tangibly compare one visible variable to the rest of the engine.
  • When considering features, ask yourself, “what skill does this cater to?” Skill sets are perhaps defined as reflexes, precision, awareness, and creativity. When you are considering changing/adding something, invest time into figuring whether this alteration will reward a base skill set, and avoid adding things solely for aesthetic value. Analyze every interaction and limitation of the game, and explore whether or not these things can be changed to better enable a player or team to show true talent, but avoid changes that upset the balance of the game.
  • Minimize randomness. Randomness is the antithesis of everything that is competitive, and every attempt to eliminate it from the game is beneficial. If randomness is present, it must be heavily controlled. A player should be given the opportunity to enact precise, responsive control over himself and any interactive part of his environment, and his in-game executions should be consistent to his input. Remove things that are consistent but make no rational sense. Do not overload the game with avenues of attack, to the point that it is completely impossible for the other player to guard at least somewhat effectively or predict his opponent's movement.
  • Prioritize your mechanics based around the most common occurrences in the game. Barring any rare instances that prove to be game-breaking, you should mold the functions of your environment to ensure that the most common exchanges between players are the most consistent of all.

These are the bare fundamental rules of all games, virtual or otherwise, regardless of genre. If we accept that the point of a game or competition is to observe the superior winning out over the inferior by virtue of sheer skill, then to ignore any one of these rules is contrary to all good sense. They must be obeyed in order for a functional game to be created. With that settled, let’s get a little bit specific. Let’s talk about what makes FPS work, their general characteristics, objectives, and in-game advantages. Let’s also discuss what is favorable and unfavorable as far as conscious design is concerned.


  • Base mobility – The defining aspect of any FPS is how you get around, including pure player speed, amount of three-dimensional mobility, and input reaction time. A functional system would involve exceptionally tight response to changes in direction, a brisk base movement pace that allows players to re-enter the action at reasonable intervals, considerable gravity to avoid "floatiness," and ideally a streamlined manner of moving in all dimensions.
  • Health system – As has been demonstrated over the years, there are a few ways of implementing health, such as Halo’s rechargeable shields concept. A working health system is one that should punish players for taking damage and force them to seek out powerups to restore their hit points, so as not to create a scenario in which a defeated player's damage becomes meaningless.
  • Weapon variety – A staple characteristic of the FPS genre is that you have weapons that vary in effectiveness and application. Weapons in an FPS should have differing functionality and power to promote gameplay variety and possible player specialization, and should generally avoid overlapping with other weapons in range and function. The melee system is especially important, and should be treated as a rare and situationally-oriented alternative to the player's firearms.
  • Map design – Whether designing maps around player abilities or vice versa, maps must be crafted with utmost care. Maps should be designed to guide players in a cyclical pattern, but avoid bottlenecks and "no man's land." There should be clear lanes of fire in some areas, but care should be taken to avoid overemphasis on maps that encourage pot-shots. Each room or area in a map should have multiple access points, and powerups should be spread across all map sections.
  • Aiming system - The mechanics behind firing your gun and tracking your opponents on-screen. This shall possibly include aim assist, bullet magnetism, aim acceleration/deceleration, bloom, recoil, and the visible HUD. Aiming is the most basic form of skill in an FPS, so the system itself should be responsive and solid-feeling, with as little assistance granted by the game as is practical. A suggested ratio of a "perfect" kill (e.g. three shot kill in H1) might be one out of every 10 direct encounters.
  • Spawn system – A properly designed spawn system is crucial to the overall balance of a shooter, as it is one of the main aspects when considering options for a losing team to recover. Spawn systems should never spawn players in areas that put them at either a large advantage or disadvantage. The spawn system should have some small amount of predictability and be controllable to an extent if it is to be utilized in a skillful way, but remain random enough that it is not a damning factor for one team in the course of a match.
  • Custom items/powerups/status effects/etc. – Depending on the particular design of a game, these sort of things can be used to add depth and variety. Powerups should compliment player abilities, and should ALWAYS encourage aggressive play, but remain at a reasonable level of power so as to be able to be neutralized should they be utilized in a careless way.
With that, we can come full circle and start talking Halo. I beg your pardon if I reiterate a lot of what has been said in my previous rants, but a lot of things are worth stating over again, given the seeming ineptitude of the audience I’m delivering this to. Halo is what could be called a “medium-pace” FPS, which is something that was definitely unique at the time of its release, and may still be, depending on your opinion. When you talk about what constitutes balance in an FPS, the speed of the game is often the biggest determining factor, though you must evaluate this in hindsight because it is a number of interwoven characteristics that determine a game’s speed.

It is important to differentiate between different types of shooters, because some modes of play will work if a game designer is intentionally trying to promote a certain style of combat. It seems to me that this only tends to be a problem when game designers attempt to install any amount of realism into their game. Let it be said that realism is almost always a hindrance and distraction to real skill, though it is important to note when this is significant. For example, it is entirely realistic that a rocket launcher would take some amount of time to reload (though not entirely realistic that someone can do it while running at full speed) – this is a good thing. It plays to the concept of risk & reward as well as a balance between power and vulnerability. An example of realism clouding the picture, on the other hand, would be bloom. Bloom is a characteristic of shooting games that is implemented solely to mimic real life limitations, but the fact of the matter is that bloom doesn’t cater to a skill. If the controller was violently churning in your hands as you attempted to fire on your opponent, then maybe that would be a case for its validity, but as it stands, bloom is a frustratingly needless feature in games with built spread already built in. But, I digress.

Consider that a 16-shot BR and sniper-start gametypes are both incredibly competitive, so to speak. A 16-shot BR would necessitate the strictest teamwork and the utmost focus on power items, but it would eliminate lone-wolfing and cause the power items to be extremely unbalanced. Sniper starts (or a weapon with sniper-like power and characteristics) would require incredible individual prowess, however it would eliminate the real effectiveness of power items and would also mostly abolish teamshooting. Furthermore, both scenarios, in their upset state, would cause the game to slow to a crawl by eliminating incentive to move, promoting clustering, and producing an altogether unfavorable game environment. Please note that these are hyperboles, so don’t read too much into them.

For example, let’s look at squad-based shooters like Rainbow Six or Call of Duty. You’ll note that except for the initial position-jockeying, these games are fairly slow. Why is this? To answer this question, we must consider a few different factors about the game that define it, and how they interact with and affect each other as well.


  • Kill times – As is the general rule with squad shooters, almost every weapon is a power weapon. If you get shot, you are dead, as most of these games afford a player a very slim reservoir of health for the sake of realism. This has the obvious consequence of taking risk & reward to an extreme.
  • Weapon characteristics – As squad shooters model themselves after realistic weaponry, you are going to be a very effective killing machine. Your incentive is to stay still due to the bloom, which will grant you a particularly long range of fire, so you are encouraged to stay in the shadows and either pick people off from a distance or surprise them as they try to move.
  • Map design – The maps are usually large, complex, and littered with copious amounts of clutter as well as tight spaces. In addition to creating a wealth of hiding spots and hidden avenues of attack, most of the weapons have a very favorable range, which creates a large “no-man’s land” scenario in which you can’t traverse open areas, and in which you really can’t move anywhere without an extreme amount of caution.

So, you pretty much get the point by now. Squad shooters are slow. What about games like Quake and Unreal?


  • Kill times – To contrast completely, arena shooter kill times are very slow, which ironically leads to quick gameplay in their case. There is generally a weapon "tier" system, but even the most powerful guns rarely kill in one hit, if that (or, they take a while to charge). This creates a scenario in which battles are specifically won by both aiming and outmaneuvering - made possible because arena shooters are based around rapid character movement - and are thus sometimes long and drawn out exchanges with daring acrobatics, as well as replenished health.
  • Weapon characteristics – As previously stated, the weapons follow a more or less linear scale of power, rarely deviating too far from the normal course of the Doom-style caste system. Since the battles become longer, it is obviously of little use to attempt to ambush somebody, so the games revolve around cycling and protection of certain power items.
  • Map design – The map design is of little consequence most of the time, but arena shooters generally feature medium-sized Colosseum-style maps that don't have "power positions" so much as they have common battle grounds, which are usually near powerups. Often the maps have zero clutter and each room has many access points.

This gives a general idea of how FPS games can be paced, and will hopefully enlighten some people on the fact that differently-paced games must be structured differently.

So with all of these guidelines laid, what should a properly balanced shooter behave like? What sort of signs should we see in-game that clue us in to whether or not a shooter is designed correctly?


  • Even teamwork-to-skill ratio - In a shooter with ideal design, there should be perceivably equal parts communication and coordination with teammates as individual responsibility and performance.
  • Strength off spawn or readily available powerups - If a game provides limited access to power items, then the game should afford a freshly spawning player with the inherent firepower to take down an opposing player in control of the map. A good indicator of this is the ability of one player to take out multiple opposing players of full strength, if he executes correctly and skillfully. If the player shall spawn weak, then the map shall be littered with available pickups. Due to the long duration and penalizing nature of death and spawns in Halo, a player must have a fair chance to wreak certain havoc on every spawning opportunity.
  • Additive adaptation vs. subtractive adaptation - A shooter shall owe its skillfulness to a synergy of many different factors requiring a certain division of focus on the part of the player. It shall not derive its difficulty from the removal of avenues by which a player can demonstrate reflexive or cognitive prowess, thus constraining his ability to perform, for the main proponent of game-changing plays is creativity, which cannot be exercised when only a small number of avenues of attack exist.
  • Absence of stalemates - A balanced shooter will demonstrate an acute lack of standstills that are not directly caused by overt team cautiousness. That is to say, there will be no qualities in the game that inherently discourage smart yet aggressive playstyles, and in no situation will a team assume an unfair amount of control over either the map or the power items that prevents the opposing team from being able to engage effectively and leaving as little as possible to chance. This will also be promoted by a game that encourages cycling and has many different points of objective.
  • Counterbalancing vs. reward - The abilities and features granted to a player off their immediate spawn should be counterbalanced, which is to say that they are abilities with both positives and negatives. This is in direct contrast to items/weapons/etc. that are acquired externally, which should grant the player an uninhibited reward for displaying superior skill and map control.
So with all that said, why don't we run over some "practice problems" like we used to do in elementary school math books? The points given have been somewhat abstract, and you may be left wondering, "gosh Lemon, what you say makes sense, but how and to what do I apply it?" Which is a perfectly valid question. Consider the following:

1. If the given maps for a Halo game follow the archetypal "wide-open" design that has been prominent since H2, and kill times are long, what effect is sprint going to have on the game?

As much as you people didn't want to hear this at the time (and you all did NOT want to hear this at the time), sprint negatively effects the game balance, especially in objective gametypes. You all simply took that for granted because you think that since you run faster, the game is somehow faster. It isn't; believe me, I enjoy being able to get from point A to point B in a jiffy, but the entire point of this post was SYNERGY OF VARIABLES. What is the problem that has plagued Halo ever since the first game? Overemphasis on teamshot. What happens when you give players the ability to reenter combat THAT much faster after they respawn? Think about it for a moment, and please try to move beyond the "it would be boring to watch, otherwise" misgivings you all seem to have.

2. What purpose does bloom serve in Halo?

Zilch. Now we all know that bloom is annoying in its own right, but what is the actual functional irrelevancy of it? Bloom is meant to be a unique characteristic of the gun you are holding. It is supposed to differentiate between different types of guns and give players a choice for preference or ability. There's only one problem, though - everyone starts with the DMR. There IS no differentiation. If there was a second possible starting weapon that had a larger bloom and more powerful rounds (or the inverse), then bloom would have a purpose. But there isn't, and it doesn't.

3. It is difficult to avoid being killed by grenades. Should we alter the fuse time or the running speed?

I have to tell you, you all pissed me off to no end with this argument when Reach first came out. Once again, we revisit one of the fundamental principles I have given to you - fix problems in a way that is considerate to the big picture. You might be saying, "huh Lemon, but surely altering the grenade fuses is the most minimalist way of dealing with the problem," and you'd be right. However, Reach is plagued with problems - and the grenade blast radius is not one of them. Do you know why the absurdly long fuse for H1 nades was permissible? Because they were friggin' mini-nukes. You lengthen the grenade fuse in Reach, you nerf grenades beyond repair. And as it happens, base movement in Reach is sluggish overall. Thus, if you want to avoid grenades, increase movement speed.

4. Sanctuary could be described as one of the "wide-open" maps that are advised against. Why is it a desirable competitive map?

Sanctuary is designed in such a way that it does not encourage camping power positions and sniping, by virtue of a decent amount of cover in its open areas and one important factor, which is that it is not a map that was forged in the spirit of "skirting the rafters with your back to a wall and aiming into the center." Sanctuary is cut in half and the center section is walled off so that the action is naturally guided towards the more complex areas, but it also avoids being a bottleneck nightmare by containing many avenues of attack.

5. Are single-shot weapons more skillful than burst weapons?

In a word, no. Frankly, I don't know where this ridiculous idea came from, and the people who propagate it are utter idiots. Undoubtedly, their skewed perception on this subject comes from the BR vs. DMR/pistol debates, as they point this out as a somehow "self-evident" example of single-shot weapons being superior. If we look back, one of our core skill sets for FPS games was "precision." Now you tell me, does it take more skill to hold a target for five shots, or for twelve shots? That, if anything, should be self-evident. Do not confuse absurd amounts of aim assist, a large spread, and bad netcode as being a flaw of some kind in burst weapons. Think of the CE pistol as being a nine-shot weapon, instead of three - the range, accuracy, and kill time are all intact. Do you have the skill to hit nine shots?

Hopefully what I am telling you people is starting to make sense here.
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
343, please put button mapping Halo 4.

<3 u

I mean, I know you know this, but you realize what button mapping would do to the test parameters of a sandbox game with lots of animation dependencies, right? It would take 100 years to strip out glitches, button combos, errors, etc, etc.
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
You're assuming that my interpretation of how the game could/should be created never takes into account the broad spectrum of players. That's false. I know where I stand and how meaningful I am in the big picture, but that doesn't mean my understanding of the game is limited to that as well.



Oh, don't take that as me being angry or bitter. I think it's pretty humorous, and it was probably a good thing because it got me to stop posting there for a while. I think you mean well and I hold no ill-will towards you for it.




I love what Halo used to be and what it could be; I love it's potential. But you're right, no one is forcing me to play Halo, and I don't; I don't like what it's become. I've started playing Reach again just to get back into it for this GAF tournament, but other than that, I stopped playing Halo2/3/Reach well before their "lifespan" was through.


Sorry - I was talking about angry feedback, generally - not you in particular, or even Cursed Lemon.
 
Game will be localized in the normal suite of languages. Come at me Brazil Portuguese vs Portugal Portuguese!
I remember when Microsoft shipped Halo 2 dubbed for Latins/Mexicans to Spain, shit was scary and awkward to listen lol

Thanks god they did a great job with the later games.
 
I like how they used the big MechaKyleJ talking about how IMMERSIVE the game is. Fuck how well it plays, the shit is like...it's like I'm there, bro
 

Overdoziz

Banned
I mean, I know you know this, but you realize what button mapping would do to the test parameters of a sandbox game with lots of animation dependencies, right? It would take 100 years to strip out glitches, button combos, errors, etc, etc.
Well, you better start testing then!
 

Akai__

Member
Cursed Lemon also shouldn't have made his rant almost an hour long.

No one wants to sit through that.

True. I clicked on the video, saw the length and closed it.

I remember when Microsoft shipped Halo 2 dubbed for Latins/Mexicans to Spain, shit was scary and awkward to listen lol

Thanks god they did a great job with the later games.

I didn't like the german synchros for all Halo games either, in my opinion they are horible. :p
 

Tawpgun

Member
I agree with Frank post, and glad they listen to the constructive criticism.



There is text form (shorter than the video complete text)

Dude that's still long as hell. If I was him, I'd make some sort of blog, or maybe a youtube video every few days. Make it like 2-3 minutes long and focus on ONE point.

I have an idea for The Halo Council. Have a diverse panel. If I were to assemble one it would look something like


An MLG Pro
A kyle/juices/Over/ someone who likes playing the game to win, but doesn't really play MLG too much.
An average, don't care really, player. Got plenty of these on GAF. Someone who would play competetive 4 v 4 Arena and then play action sack the next game.
A casual, almost strictly customs/plays for fun regardless of win/loss etc.
Maybe even someone who really doesn't like MLG and the competetive community.

Walshy
Kyle
Heckfu
Louis Wu
Greenskull

Something along those lines. Seems like the Halo Council knows how to fix competitive Halo, but not Halo as whole. It's be interesting to hear differing opinions.
 

BigShow36

Member
Sorry - I was talking about angry feedback, generally - not you in particular, or even Cursed Lemon.

There's no need to be sorry.

Angry feedback is not exclusive to one group of players. You guys get angry feedback from all sides and from all different groups. I would argue that most of the well-thought out and diplomatic, "nice," feedback has come from the competitive community, yet they're the one's who seem to get further and further alienated from the franchise.
 

Amazing Mic

Neo Member
It's one video, regardless of tone it has a lot of great points, I don't think his voice should be the big reason people dislike a video (which it really seems.) That's a shame imo.

I did think it had some very good points, some ideas I never heard of before that sounded very interesting. If Lemon's video "succeeded" and some of those changes were implemented in a future game- fantastic. I did not dislike the ideas- I disliked the video because it won't deliver the intended message.

Frankie elaborated very well on why the delivery doesn't work (and it holds true in may different professional arenas). Rudeness aside, when you spend so much time spewing about how Reach sucks, why H3 sucks, why this/that/whatever sucks so terribly bad it doesn't deserve to exist- frankly, your argument holds less weight because everything gets clouded. Many of the things he commented on are imperfect, but they are not heaping piles of garbage as suggested. It is a shame, but that does matter.

**Otherwise, I enjoy the site and your efforts. Best of luck.
 

CyReN

Member
Dude that's still long as hell. If I was him, I'd make some sort of blog, or maybe a youtube video every few days. Make it like 2-3 minutes long and focus on ONE point.

I have an idea for The Halo Council. Have a diverse panel. If I were to assemble one it would look something like


An MLG Pro
A kyle/juices/Over/ someone who likes playing the game to win, but doesn't really play MLG too much.
An average, don't care really, player. Got plenty of these on GAF. Someone who would play competetive 4 v 4 Arena and then play action sack the next game.
A casual, almost strictly customs/plays for fun regardless of win/loss etc.
Maybe even someone who really doesn't like MLG and the competetive community.

Walshy
Kyle
Heckfu
Louis Wu
Greenskull

Something along those lines. Seems like the Halo Council knows how to fix competitive Halo, but not Halo as whole. It's be interesting to hear differing opinions.

Green Skull and Louis Wu have declined in the past, but I wouldn't be against the idea. Honestly at this point though we might as well wait until after everyone played the game post launch to really break the game down. Even the people that have played the game, have played such a small fraction of it (and the game could still change from their playtest).

There is a lot of passion from the competitive community though no doubt, Halo 4 will make or break the entire MLG/Competitive community as a whole.
 

heckfu

Banned
Dude that's still long as hell. If I was him, I'd make some sort of blog, or maybe a youtube video every few days. Make it like 2-3 minutes long and focus on ONE point.

I have an idea for The Halo Council. Have a diverse panel. If I were to assemble one it would look something like


An MLG Pro
A kyle/juices/Over/ someone who likes playing the game to win, but doesn't really play MLG too much.
An average, don't care really, player. Got plenty of these on GAF. Someone who would play competetive 4 v 4 Arena and then play action sack the next game.
A casual, almost strictly customs/plays for fun regardless of win/loss etc.
Maybe even someone who really doesn't like MLG and the competetive community.

Walshy
Kyle
Heckfu
Louis Wu
Greenskull

Something along those lines. Seems like the Halo Council knows how to fix competitive Halo, but not Halo as whole. It's be interesting to hear differing opinions.

I think I appreciate that?
 
Dunno if Frankie could answer this but I'll try lol:

In the most recent Q&A you guys said you're adding some interesting variety to MP to make for the lack of elites/invasion... whatever.

Is Spartan Ops included into the MP experience or were you talking about Infinity?

Having Promethean Knights running around with armor abilities sticking out of their asses is just too suspicious.
 

daedalius

Member
I'm wasting my time regardless; nice or not, someone on a forum telling the developer that they're doing it poorly isn't going to get much heed. Why should I further waste my time mincing words when directly attacking the heart of the issue is more beneficial? I'm not here to make people I disagree with feel better about their poor decisions.

You're not good at this.

If constructing a well reasoned argument is a 'waste of your time', then no one is going to listen to or care about what you have to say.

Dude that's still long as hell. If I was him, I'd make some sort of blog, or maybe a youtube video every few days. Make it like 2-3 minutes long and focus on ONE point.

I have an idea for The Halo Council. Have a diverse panel. If I were to assemble one it would look something like


An MLG Pro
A kyle/juices/Over/ someone who likes playing the game to win, but doesn't really play MLG too much.
An average, don't care really, player. Got plenty of these on GAF. Someone who would play competetive 4 v 4 Arena and then play action sack the next game.
A casual, almost strictly customs/plays for fun regardless of win/loss etc.
Maybe even someone who really doesn't like MLG and the competetive community.

Walshy
Kyle
Heckfu
Louis Wu
Greenskull

Something along those lines. Seems like the Halo Council knows how to fix competitive Halo, but not Halo as whole. It's be interesting to hear differing opinions.

This would certainly be an entertaining listen; but I'd rather listen to Over's glorious accent over Kyle ;)
 

BigShow36

Member
You're not good at this.

If constructing a well reasoned argument is a 'waste of your time', then no one is going to listen to or care about what you have to say.

I've already done that, several times. I'm actually quite good at it when I care to be. I no longer care to be because its a waste of time.
 

Risen

Member
Green Skull and Louis Wu have declined in the past, but I wouldn't be against the idea. Honestly at this point though we might as well wait until after everyone played the game post launch to really break the game down. Even the people that have played the game, have played such a small fraction of it (and the game could still change from their playtest).

There is a lot of passion from the competitive community though no doubt, Halo 4 will make or break the entire MLG/Competitive community as a whole.


I like the idea... even if those folks wouldn't be inclined to take part, I think it would be good to have a panel of folks discuss gaming/Halo in general that are primarily different types of players. I think it would be good for THC and competitive halo in general.
 

Tashi

343i Lead Esports Producer
Am I the guy who said that the game should ship with completely stripped down graphics? :p

Risen I've been using a shitty cell phone mic to play with. Shit hurts my ear so bad. I hope this glue works. I don't really have a clamp though so the glue can really bond. I might have some binder clips though lol. Btw, I'll be on in less than an hour if anyone wants to play.
 

daedalius

Member
I've already done that, several times. I'm actually quite good at it when I care to be. I no longer care to be because its a waste of time.

Perhaps, but they usually laced with venom like your usual forum posts, so a lot of your message gets lost.

Maybe I should have said: well-reasoned and not laced with venom
 

CyReN

Member
Risen I've been using a shitty cell phone mic to play with. Shit hurts my ear so bad. I hope this glue works. I don't really have a clamp though so the glue can really bond. I might have some binder clips though lol. Btw, I'll be on in less than an hour if anyone wants to play.

Sold my 350's to a local btw:(

and FootballGAF - Portugal: 2 | Spain: 1
 

Tunavi

Banned
Breaking news: Actual look at a Promethean vehicle

zmPPw.jpg


fffffffffffffuuuuuuuu you got me so bad
 
Been mulling over Halo 4 MP.

Sprint kills my boner. I'd take the text and remove Sprint if I could.
But since I can't, it'd be really really nice if that text in the middle was optional.
I'd love to hear why that can't happen.
 
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