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MaLDo · Oct 1, 2012

KageMaru said:
While I agree with you that framerate should be considered part of the graphical makeup, the issue here is you can't show off 60fps in PR screenshots.

If you are proud enough of your console, you can include a console FRAPS as app and you can show pr screenshots with the yellow 60. A new level on console marketing wars.

clutch.as.it.gets. · Oct 1, 2012

If true, i will leave the xbox camp and join the playstation family.

Raistlin · Oct 1, 2012

amstradcpc said:
Do you imagine Xbox 720 launch with something similar to Oculus Rift?. It would have no competence... An instant winner.

ahahahahahaha

Donnie · Oct 1, 2012

Perkel said:
Looks like people don't remember that consoles in 2005 and 2006 delivered CPU way above what was back then in retail channel.

Cell alone was something amazing and for few years ubeaten by any proccesor for PC.

But one thing is clear it will be miles faster than Wii U and with low API it will be unbeaten by PC in 1-2 years.

These are my responses to each respective paragraph:

No they didn't

No it wasn't

You're going to be very disappointed.

ekim · Oct 1, 2012

Donnie said:
These are my responses to each respective paragraph:

No they didn't

No it wasn't

You're going to be very disappointed.

I have to disagree. He is talking about affordable consumer pc hardware. In that case, he is totally right.

danwarb · Oct 1, 2012

Donnie said:
These are my responses to each respective paragraph:

No they didn't

No it wasn't

You're going to be very disappointed.

Right. Cell was the bottleneck for a while because hardly anyone had time to use it as intended.

amstradcpc · Oct 1, 2012

Raistlin said:
ahahahahahaha

Ok, competition... Or i wanted to mean too demand to be able to fab it?

Durante · Oct 1, 2012

Donnie said:
No it wasn't

Cell absolutely was an amazing performer when it launched. It's still pretty competitive in terms of FLOPS/Watt, even though it's positively ancient at this point.

Donnie · Oct 1, 2012

ekim said:
I have to disagree. He is talking about affordable consumer pc hardware. In that case, he is totally right.

If you want to measure the number of flops you can calculate on Xenon maybe, otherwise no. CELL was a monster for floating point calculations as well and great for easily paralleled code, in that way it was impressive. But even a core2duo would smoke either Xenon or CELL as a general purpose CPU and is much easier to get good performance. People tend to look at Xenon being 3.2Ghz and 3 cores and think, well no PC hardware had that, yeah but the cores used in those lower clocked PC CPU's were far superior.

eunao · Oct 1, 2012

If the next Xbox has 16 cores and they say the next playstation will be more powerful... I honestly don't want to know what that is. I really hope the RAM is up to par with the CPU otherwise it won't matter how many cores you have.

ekim · Oct 1, 2012

Donnie said:
If you want to measure the number of flops you can calculate on Xenon maybe, otherwise no. CELL was impressive in some ways but again only for very easily paralleled code and floating point calculations. A core2duo would smoke either Xenon or CELL as a general purpose CPU and is much easier to get good performance. People tend to look at Xenon being 3.2Ghz and 3 cores and think, well no PC hardware had that, yeah but the cores used in those lower clocked CPU's were far superior.

I'm talking about the dedicated use in terms of gaming, especially given the set of intrinsics (vmx128) and other "on-the-metal" optimizations for the xenon. The PS3's cell architecture also still shows its muscles if someone is able to use it's potential.

Donnie · Oct 1, 2012

eunao said:
If the next Xbox has 16 cores and they say the next playstation will be more powerful... I honestly don't want to know what that is. I really hope the RAM is up to par with the CPU otherwise it won't matter how many cores you have.

16 ARM11 cores at 100Mhz.

Just kidding but you get the point

Proelite · Oct 1, 2012

eunao said:
If the next Xbox has 16 cores and they say the next playstation will be more powerful... I honestly don't want to know what that is. I really hope the RAM is up to par with the CPU otherwise it won't matter how many cores you have.

The next Xbox doesn't necessarily have 16 cores. They're basing on the fact that the alpha kits are powered by two intel Xeon quadcores, which would show up as 16 logical cpus in Dxdiag.

AzaK · Oct 1, 2012

manzo said:
He took his wildest fanboy dreams and made a livejournal post out of it.

I was thinking more along the lines of LSD mixed with Magic Mushrooms, but yours will do

Mascot said:
Wait... what?
People are using 'next gen' and '30fps' in the same sentence?
If Durango isn't locked 60fps as a minimum spec I will be fucking incandescent with rage.

If this happens, can you post a photograph?

Mr.Green said:
Who cares about consumers? They're after the Master Race. We spend that kind of money on video cards alone

I tend to agree with you in a way. I can see MS going high end expensive (for a console) and having two SKU's. One at full retail that gaming nutters would form out for and another subsidised as to hide the cost. The latter would get it's value for average consumers from the all-in-one settop box features.

Donnie · Oct 1, 2012

ekim said:
I'm talking about the dedicated use in terms of gaming, especially given the set of intrinsics (vmx128) and other "on-the-metal" optimizations for the xenon. The PS3's cell architecture also still shows its muscles if someone is able to use it's potential.

While both CPU's you mentioned certainly had some positive gaming optimisations a lot of the things removed in comparison to most modern CPU's were very negative for any form of processing (lack of out of order execution, poor caches). CELL as a server CPU was very impressive on release and even for a couple of years after that, as a gaming CPU I just don't think it was well suited to it. I'm sure an Intel Core 2 Quad core would still show its muscle today in a console, better in a lot of ways than either Xenon or CELL and certainly not way behind.

ekim · Oct 1, 2012

Donnie said:
While both CPU's you mentioned certainly had some positive gaming optimisations a lot of the things removed in comparison to most modern CPU's were very negative for any form of processing (lack of out of order execution, poor caches). CELL as a server CPU was very impressive on release and even for a couple of years after that, as a gaming CPU I just don't think it was well suited to it. I'm sure an Intel Core 2 Quad core would still show its muscle today in a console, better in a lot of ways than either Xenon or CELL and certainly not way behind.

Hm. Can't argue with the cache issue. I'm not that techy after all so I guess you're right in the end.

charsace · Oct 1, 2012

Proelite said:
The next Xbox doesn't necessarily have 16 cores. They're basing on the fact that the alpha kits are powered by two intel Xeon quadcores, which would show up as 16 logical cpus in Dxdiag.

Does that mean the cpu will be as good as that in the xbox3? Because the 360 is better than what was in the first xbox dev kits.

capslock · Oct 1, 2012

Yeah, but how many bits is it?

Chittagong · Oct 1, 2012

On a completely different note, I think that it's pretty much a given now that next generation consoles will do native 1080P rendering as default.

Sharp just announced that 1080P mobile phone screens are hitting mass production, and most certainly Sony and Microsoft will not suffer the public embarrassment of their next generation consoles being seen (by the uninformed public) as "inferior" to mobile phones visuals:

http://www.engadget.com/2012/10/01/sharp-lcd-panel-type-5/?utm_source=engadget&utm_medium=twitter

ekim · Oct 1, 2012

1080p phone screens? Why?

Donnie · Oct 1, 2012

Chittagong said:
On a completely different note, I think that it's pretty much a given now that next generation consoles will do native 1080P rendering as default.

Sharp just announced that 1080P mobile phone screens are hitting mass production, and most certainly Sony and Microsoft will not suffer the public embarrassment of their next generation consoles being seen (by the uninformed public) as "inferior" to mobile phones visuals:

http://www.engadget.com/2012/10/01/sharp-lcd-panel-type-5/?utm_source=engadget&utm_medium=twitter

They may want them displayed at 1080p for that reason, but I doubt many will be rendered at 1080p. Mobile phone games won't be rendered at 1080p either no matter what the screen resolution (well unless its a 2d platformer or something).

Cake Boss · Oct 1, 2012

Mascot said:
Didn't Sony also originally say this about the PS3?

No you got it wrong, it was 120fps.

KageMaru · Oct 1, 2012

charsace said:
Does that mean the cpu will be as good as that in the xbox3? Because the 360 is better than what was in the first xbox dev kits.

Ironically I found out today, and should have known for a while, that outside of floating point ops, the final CPU in the 360 is actually worse than the G5 in the alpha kits. Though the GPU was better.

Donnie · Oct 1, 2012

KageMaru said:
Ironically I found out today, and should have known for a while, that outside of floating point ops, the final CPU in the 360 is actually worse than the G5 in the alpha kits. Though the GPU was better.

Well rumour has it that Xenon turned out a poorer CPU than MS was expecting, but how true that is I'm not sure.

Just remember various comments about MS expecting out of order execution and 3.6Ghz.

Mik_Pad · Oct 1, 2012

aegies said:
Sooner than that, is what I've heard. But I'm not sure how reliable the source is.

Sooner for whom MS or Sony??

KageMaru · Oct 1, 2012

Donnie said:
Well rumour has it that Xenon turned out a poorer CPU than MS was expecting, but how true that is I'm not sure.

Just remember various comments about MS expecting out of order execution and 3.6Ghz.

Yeah I don't think that's much of a rumor =P. As you said, MS wanted an OoO 3.5(maybe .6?)Ghz CPU but IBM couldn't produce it and likely offered the Cell PPU as an alternative design. In terms of floating point ops, the current CPU is better, but the G5 in the alpha kits were much faster at general purpose computing.

Doffen · Oct 2, 2012

I'm not sure if this has been posted before. This is just vaguely connected to the next Xbox, but if you visit www.e3expo.com you will see some interesting new slogans for E3 2013.

"This is the year"

"This is the E3 you won't want to miss"

"It's what's next now"

Take a look

Meelow · Oct 2, 2012

Doffen said:
I'm not sure if this has been posted before. This is just vaguely connected to the next Xbox, but if you visit www.e3expo.com you will see some interesting new slogans for E3 2013.

"This is the year"

"This is the E3 you won't want to miss"

"It's what's next now"

Take a look

Where does it say this?

Edit: Nevermind.

Edit 2: Next E3 will probably be huge, Xbox 720 and PS4 announcements, with a huge Nintendo E3 conference unveiling Retro's, Miyamoto, Nintendo EAD, Bayonetta 2, possible Super Smash Bros and Zelda Wii U trailers, third party games, etc.

jetsetfluken · Oct 2, 2012

Douche McBaggins The 3rd said:
I see 4k support as a huge waste of time and money. We had 480i/p for fifty years. 720/1080p hasn't even been standardized for ten years proper yet. Also most of those people hoping for 4k don't realize that most people don't want to update their tv every few years. I recall tvs being one of those appliance purchases where people didn't buy another one until the tv broke down. That's anywhere from 6-20 years depending on how long that set lasts. I'm not in a hurry to pay another 1-2 grand minimum for a tv I just bought a month ago. Most people don't want to be told their tv is worthless either. Television programming feels that way too when almost all television content is at 720p or maybe 1080i. I have never seen a television show at 1080p yet.

Plus I'd rather see 1080p maximized at a stable 60fps with effects then a janky 4k picture that reminds me of N64's frame rates.

Bleh.

Yes, let's hold back technology because the mainstream consumer is apathetic.

CLEEK · Oct 2, 2012

All the 4K talk for next gen is really jumping the gun. I think 4K support will be like native 1080p support this gen. Only a handful of titles will manage it.

This upcoming gen will just see 1080p cemented as the default display resolution. Despite being 7 years into the HD generation, HDTV uptake still isn't ubiquitous amongst core gamers, let alone the wider population. Bare in mind that it was only a couple of years ago that Epic Games stated that more than half of Gears players, played it in SD. And these stats would just be from online 360s. I'm sure a bigger percentage of offline 360s would be SD too.

TV broadcasters have invested heavily in the workflow to produce and deliver 720p/1080i HD programming, so I can't see them making much of a push to 4K. Certainly not until 4K TVs are widespread, but that won't happen until there are 4K sources to view. So a real chicken & egg situation. Sony has a vested interested in pushing 4K though, as their doomed TV division has invested significantly into the tech. I can't see much motivation for MS to aim for 4K, as they have little to gain from it.

Bsigg12 · Oct 2, 2012

Doffen said:
I'm not sure if this has been posted before. This is just vaguely connected to the next Xbox, but if you visit www.e3expo.com you will see some interesting new slogans for E3 2013.

"This is the year"

"This is the E3 you won't want to miss"

"It's what's next now"

Take a look

Pretty excited now. I'll be there as the regional rep for Microsoft in my area so hopefully its a crazy ass show.

SapientWolf · Oct 2, 2012

jetsetfluken said:
Yes, let's hold back technology because the mainstream consumer is apathetic.

No, move technology in a direction that is the most beneficial to the experience. Or at least let people choose for themselves. Because 4k and 60fps are mutually exclusive on current HDMI standards.

NervousXtian · Oct 2, 2012

jetsetfluken said:
Yes, let's hold back technology because the mainstream consumer is apathetic.

Apathetic? No.

They don't want to keep forking out big money over and over again just because tech moves on... fuck the dude is right.. 1080p isn't even standard yet.. could give a fuck about 4k for another 5 years or so.

ekim · Oct 2, 2012

Microsoft patent US2012242810

Three-Dimensional (3D) Imaging Based on MotionParallax

Techniques and technologies are described herein for motion parallax three-dimensional (3D) imaging. Such techniques and technologies do not require special glasses, virtual reality helmets, or other user-attachable devices. More particularly, some of the described motion parallax 3D imaging techniques and technologies generate sequential images, including motion parallax depictions of various scenes derived from clues in views obtained of or created for the displayed scene.

So this means, they can do 3D without glasses on a common non-3D tv?

AlStrong · Oct 2, 2012

ekim · Oct 2, 2012

I know there are autostereoscopic displays using this tech like the 3DS but why would MS hand in a patent for this?

Graphics Horse · Oct 2, 2012

ekim said:
I know there are autostereoscopic displays using this tech like the 3DS but why would MS hand in a patent for this?

Because it's something they work on.
http://phys.org/news195657981.html

ekim said:
So this means, they can do 3D without glasses on a common non-3D tv?

I'm not going to pretend I know patent-speak but I don't think this has anything to do with common TVs, but rather 3D TVs which don't require glasses.(and track eyeballs)

enzo_gt · Oct 2, 2012

Doffen said:
I'm not sure if this has been posted before. This is just vaguely connected to the next Xbox, but if you visit www.e3expo.com you will see some interesting new slogans for E3 2013.

"This is the year"

"This is the E3 you won't want to miss"

"It's what's next now"

Take a look

STOCK AMBIGUOUS PR QUOTE HYPE

specialguy · Oct 2, 2012

Doffen said:
I'm not sure if this has been posted before. This is just vaguely connected to the next Xbox, but if you visit www.e3expo.com you will see some interesting new slogans for E3 2013.

"This is the year"

"This is the E3 you won't want to miss"

"It's what's next now"

Take a look

yup. biggest e3 of my lifetime i think. two next gen consoles likely to be debuted for the first time.

can you even imagine the gfx comparisons alone? "wow, that PS4 game crapped all over Halo 4.5!" "No way dude, the textures on Gears 5 are insane!"

Assuming both have coming out parties at e3 13, which I'm 95% sure of.

2005 e3 just had xbox and 2006 just PS3 and Wii (which I didn't care about anyway), so those werent as big. Plus the internet hype universe just seems bigger now altogether.

REMEMBER CITADEL · Oct 2, 2012

specialguy said:
Assuming both have coming out parties at e3 13, which I'm 95% sure of.

2005 e3 just had xbox and 2006 just PS3 and Wii (which I didn't care about anyway), so those werent as big.

E3 2005 had both the 360 and PS3, although in PS3's case it was mostly a bunch of pie in the sky dreams.

manzo · Oct 2, 2012

I think it's a nice idea now to have a look at KageMaru's old post from b3d:

Scalable patent and insider(?) info

So basically, if current rumors were ALL true; there would be different versions of the 720. Let's pretend both models would be realistically something like this:

1. Basic model

2 teraflops GPU
4 GB RAM

2. Pro model

4 teraflops GPU
6 GB RAM

(original "insider" info stated 5TF/4GB and 7TF/6GB, but those are pretty insane numbers to be real)

Would this kind of model system segregate the userbase? Or everything would be coded to work on both versions, but with additional texture detail, better resolution etc. on the "pro" model?

jeff_rigby · Oct 2, 2012

manzo said:
I think it's a nice idea now to have a look at KageMaru's old post from b3d:

Scalable patent and insider(?) info

So basically, if current rumors were ALL true; there would be different versions of the 720. Let's pretend both models would be realistically something like this:

1. Basic model

2 teraflops GPU
4 GB RAM

2. Pro model

4 teraflops GPU
6 GB RAM

(original "insider" info stated 5TF/4GB and 7TF/6GB, but those are pretty insane numbers to be real)

Would this kind of model system segregate the userbase? Or everything would be coded to work on both versions, but with additional texture detail, better resolution etc. on the "pro" model?

5t, 8t, 4G, 6G... 5 Tuners 4 Gigs Ram and 8 Tuners 6 Gigs of Ram. Remember the leaked Xbox 720 powerpoint had tuners and would work as a Cable DVR box and they have multiple tuners. It would be too expensive to have two different silicon cores but memory and accessories outside the core can be different.

Plinko · Oct 2, 2012

manzo said:
I think it's a nice idea now to have a look at KageMaru's old post from b3d:

Scalable patent and insider(?) info

So basically, if current rumors were ALL true; there would be different versions of the 720. Let's pretend both models would be realistically something like this:

1. Basic model

2 teraflops GPU
4 GB RAM

2. Pro model

4 teraflops GPU
6 GB RAM

(original "insider" info stated 5TF/4GB and 7TF/6GB, but those are pretty insane numbers to be real)

Would this kind of model system segregate the userbase? Or everything would be coded to work on both versions, but with additional texture detail, better resolution etc. on the "pro" model?

Yes. This would be a horrible idea.

Brimstone · Oct 2, 2012

ekim said:
I know there are autostereoscopic displays using this tech like the 3DS but why would MS hand in a patent for this?

Microsoft acquired 3d display patents awhile back from a Cambridge scientist named Dr Adrian Travis.

It's not every day that Microsoft buys your latest invention, but that's what happened to Dr Adrian Travis, a Cambridge academic. His idea for thin, wedge-shaped light guides has been snapped up by the computer industry colossus to drive a whole new way of interfacing with computers. The new light-guides can project and image light at the same time, enabling a host of products to improve the human-computer interface.

http://www.raeng.org.uk/news/releases/shownews.htm?NewsID=454

Remember the rumors of an Apple TV...a Microsoft TV seems like one possibility.

subversus · Oct 2, 2012

Plinko said:
Yes. This would be a horrible idea.

no it wouldn't (for MS)

people with lesser model will play at lower res, IQ and framerate, that is all.

Donnie · Oct 2, 2012

KageMaru said:
Yeah I don't think that's much of a rumor =P. As you said, MS wanted an OoO 3.5(maybe .6?)Ghz CPU but IBM couldn't produce it and likely offered the Cell PPU as an alternative design. In terms of floating point ops, the current CPU is better, but the G5 in the alpha kits were much faster at general purpose computing.

Yeah I think I remember hearing it quite a few times. But unless I see something from a really solid source I still like to call it a rumour. Glad to see I wasn't imagining it though.

manzo · Oct 2, 2012

Plinko said:
Yes. This would be a horrible idea.

Why would this be a bad idea? All Gaffers would buy the "pro" version anyway. If the families and casuals would go with the ghetto version, how would it affect the "real gamers", since you would always the the best version?

bgassassin · Oct 2, 2012

Donnie said:
Yeah I think I remember hearing it quite a few times. But unless I see something from a really solid source I still like to call it a rumour. Glad to see I wasn't imagining it though.

It came from a book about the development of the 360.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0977784215/?tag=neogaf0e-20

Plinko · Oct 2, 2012

manzo said:
Why would this be a bad idea? All Gaffers would buy the "pro" version anyway. If the families and casuals would go with the ghetto version, how would it affect the "real gamers", since you would always the the best version?

Because eventually you'll get to a point where you've got games requiring the better system. At that point, you've got an opportunity for total confusion with Average Joe Consumer.

thuway · Oct 2, 2012

manzo said:
Why would this be a bad idea? All Gaffers would buy the "pro" version anyway. If the families and casuals would go with the ghetto version, how would it affect the "real gamers", since you would always the the best version?

Console games are programmed to the metal. This requires significant manpower and team work. If Microsoft introduced multiple SKUs with variable fidelity, it would increase said cost for title. It would throw a wrench into a very complicated system.

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