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[alphaNoid]

And, you know, do some damn QA on the hardware before shipping it.

I have zero faith in MS as a hardware company, due to the endless reliability issues with the 360. The next 12 months or so will be interesting, with the Surface and Xbox3, to see if they have learned costly lessons from the past and can start producing top tier hardware. The more complex they make the design of the next Xbox, the more chance of another hardware fiasco.

360 has been nearly flawless since mid 2008, and the red ring issues were well alerted to MS long before its launch. It was a calculated move to get a year jump on Sony to change the face of the console market and it worked. Retro-actively they extended all those RROD warranties to 3 years and covered most if not all people who had issues. In the end, Sony is in shambles (for many reasons) and the 360 has gained monumental ground in market share in just 2 generations. Calculated move.. with risks that paid off.

Hardware wise, they are pretty rock solid .. minus the launch of the 360.. which they knew all about in advance. But as a consumer you have the right to be concerned, but just know that they are a good hardware manufacturer just not the best, since software is their forte. I think looking to Surface is a valid ideal ... so we'll see how that goes.

 

[jetsetfluken]

If hardware stability of the launch consoles is something that threatens whether or not they will be packed with the best GPU/CPU/etc, then so be it. Let it be a little unstable at first (of course, to a minor degree). It will be fixed in the next SKU. After this extended 8 year generation, we better be getting the best possible.

Can you think of why 1080p might be the upper resolution limit for console games?

Of course, because there are no higher resolution mass consumer televisions currently available. But that isn't permanent. These consoles will be around for possibly 8-10 years, going from the length of this generation. They certainly will have the power to stick around.

4K games obviously won't be available out of the box, but it'll be relieving to see the resolution capacity there and available for the future. Even if it's just the dashboard that's 4K at first, it'll be great to see.

 

[goomba]

These sort of rumors and FUD will get even worse once wii u comes out.

Anyone remember Sony underplaying xbox 360 ? "Xbox 1.5" " next generation starts when we say so" etc.

 

[eso76]

4K is definitely something I want from these, even if adoption rate of the consumer won't arise until a few years. Same happened with 1080p.

i really really doubt 4k will have an adoption rate similar to 1080p during next gen consoles life cycles.

 

[jetsetfluken]

i really really doubt 4k will have an adoption rate similar to 1080p during next gen consoles life cycles.

I didn't say 4K adoption rate will be the same as 1080p adoption rate, but technology evolves. Televisions haven't done anything new in resolution on a mass-consumer availability basis in many years, the previous strides were 3D (which is still far from being perfected) and the "Smart TV" gimmick, which big TV companies are using right now.

And taking raw IQ into account, the late 2000's flagship Pioneer KURO's are still being used as a measuring stick by many, which has only recently been usurped somewhat by the newer Panasonic's (which are built with KURO as a baseline and engineered by some key ex-Pioneer staff!). So the point there is that the TV industry is eager to see 4K get consumer launch so that more strides can be made even in IQ.

To me I see the television industry relative the the game industry at the moment, where this is the "calm before the storm" waiting period. Both industries are stalling out the "same old" while they wait for release period of the next stride.

TV's "calm" will be a little longer than the game industry sees the next big consoles, but 4K will definitely be available as part of flagship sets sooner than later, with lowering prices and inclusion on lower end models a little after...all tying in during the next game console's lifetime.

 

[aegies]

I think we here something from both Sony and Microsoft at GDC next year with full unveiling at E3. I think Microsoft launches first worldwide in the Fall. I think Sony might have a staggered launch (Japan first followed by Europe and US).

Sooner than that, is what I've heard. But I'm not sure how reliable the source is.

 

[Router]

I'm interested to see what they end up with. People always cry out that there's no way they could possibly be using "technology x" because its too new and expensive. Yet we are looking at hardware that will last a long time and be high profile.

Bring on the VGAs.

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

I'm not liking the 1080p/30 and 720p/60 talk.
720p/60 is something that exists in many finer tuned games this generation, you're telling me with the rumored power of the next Xbox (as an example system), these are the best milestones developers are being told to shoot for?

How about 2160/30 instead guys? Alright, maybe too far in the future. Maybe the first slew of games are only shooting for those rumored resolution/fps milestones.

4K is definitely something I want from these, even if adoption rate of the consumer won't arise until a few years. Same happened with 1080p.

No, 1080p is plenty and 4K won't be a factor next gen, at least not for games. I would rather see improvements in areas other than resolution.

 

[Goldmund]

Resolution isn't much of a concern to me; it's mostly a question of distance from the TV. The frame rate should improve first.

 

[Douche McBaggins The 3rd]

I see 4k support as a huge waste of time and money. We had 480i/p for fifty years. 720/1080p hasn't even been standardized for ten years proper yet. Also most of those people hoping for 4k don't realize that most people don't want to update their tv every few years. I recall tvs being one of those appliance purchases where people didn't buy another one until the tv broke down. That's anywhere from 6-20 years depending on how long that set lasts. I'm not in a hurry to pay another 1-2 grand minimum for a tv I just bought a month ago. Most people don't want to be told their tv is worthless either. Television programming feels that way too when almost all television content is at 720p or maybe 1080i. I have never seen a television show at 1080p yet.

Plus I'd rather see 1080p maximized at a stable 60fps with effects then a janky 4k picture that reminds me of N64's frame rates.

Bleh.

 

[AzaK]

If those specs are true, even I would buy it.....to replace my heatpump.

 

[ekim]

http://www.geekwire.com/2012/microsofts-boosts-security-xbox-hq-advance-hardware/

The company notified employees this week that it will be implementing new physical security measures — limiting employee access at four key Xbox and Interactive Entertainment Business buildings to ensure confidentiality of upcoming products.

Under the new policy, only employees and vendors in Microsoft’s Interactive Entertainment Business or assigned to the buildings will have open access. Other employees and vendors who need to enter the buildings for business reasons will need to go through an online registration process or register at the buildings as visitors, escorted by another employee with access to the buildings. The changes don’t impact the Commons area in the middle of the Xbox campus.

It's getting serious.

 

[Bgamer90]

Oh snap. It's coming.

 

[MikeHaggar]

I see 4k support as a huge waste of time and money. We had 480i/p for fifty years. 720/1080p hasn't even been standardized for ten years proper yet. Also most of those people hoping for 4k don't realize that most people don't want to update their tv every few years. I recall tvs being one of those appliance purchases where people didn't buy another one until the tv broke down. That's anywhere from 6-20 years depending on how long that set lasts. I'm not in a hurry to pay another 1-2 grand minimum for a tv I just bought a month ago. Most people don't want to be told their tv is worthless either. Television programming feels that way too when almost all television content is at 720p or maybe 1080i. I have never seen a television show at 1080p yet.

Plus I'd rather see 1080p maximized at a stable 60fps with effects then a janky 4k picture that reminds me of N64's frame rates.

Bleh.

regardless of how powerful consoles become we will most likely never see a standard of 60fps across all or even most games. developers are always going to use the increase in power to push their graphics forward--many times at the expense of frame rate. it's an arms race and developers are never going to call a 'truce' so that the end user can have 60fps in all of their games.

plus, the average consumer cannot tell the difference between 60fps and 30fps or even understand exactly what the frame rate is and how it affects their experience.

 

[AzaK]

That rumor is hilarious. If Nintendo ended up with a 7XXX series GPU MS and Sony suddenly using an 8XXX series wouldn't make the Nintendo console seem obsolete at all.

Im guessing this guy took the E6760 thing and ran with it.

He took something, and it wasn't a hardware rumour.

 

[manzo]

No, 1080p is plenty and 4K won't be a factor next gen, at least not for games. I would rather see improvements in areas other than resolution.

There might be a hardware level scaling support to 4K, but we will not see anything outside Xbox Live Arcade that will render above 1080p.

He took something, and it wasn't a hardware rumour.

He took his wildest fanboy dreams and made a livejournal post out of it.

 

[Sid]

What does Wii U have to do with this?

I meant what would be the point of investing heavily in the graphical power of a console if the games can't look substantially better than the current gen? and if they don't then that would be even worse for the wiiu,just saying.

 

[-SD-]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=38041471&postcount=457

I knew GAF would deliver.

 

[amstradcpc]

Do you imagine Xbox 720 launch with something similar to Oculus Rift?. It would have no competence... An instant winner.

 

[ekim]

They have the "holodeck" thingy.
http://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/microsoft-xbox-720-patent/

 

[Canis lupus]

Do you imagine Xbox 720 launch with something similar to Oculus Rift?. It would have no competence... An instant winner.

And how much will such an extra accessory cost.

 

[DieH@rd]

People still comment on "16 core" gpu like it was real, even though we know MS abandoned that IBM hw.

 

[DCharlie]

am i missing something here?

surely 4k (outside of video playback) is just a (native/output) option that developers can chose in exactly the same way that they would chose to go with 720/1080p?

you take the hit in performance along with the choice and whilst the chances of native res 4k games of any major complexity are small, the choices are there.

The GPU supporting 4K does NOT mean that every game has to jump to be native 4K res - it's simply an option in the same way that , if someone wanted to, they could do the same on a PC.

4K roll out has already started in TK by the way - it's not going to gather significant steam for 3 years which would still be relatively young in the next gens life cycle but -media- support for that format is pretty much a given for the Sony machine at least -especially- if the cards have the umph they are expected to. Again - this doesn't mean games en masse will be 4K native - that's not going to happen.

p.s. in a world where developers chose 720p/30fps with the suggested power that the machines have - the games are going to look absolutely WTF-ish.

 

[nhlducks35]

Why kid yourselves guys? We all know that next gen will be 720P and 30FPS.

 

[mrklaw]

We didn't care when colour tv didn't change for 30 years - why the assumption that we how need bigger better faster TV sets and infrastructure every 5 years?

 

[Proelite]

People still comment on "16 core" gpu like it was real, even though we know MS abandoned that IBM hw.

2 x quad core Xeon chips = 16 logical cpus.

You can sort of see where the misconception comes from.

 

[DCharlie]

We didn't care when colour tv didn't change for 30 years - why the assumption that we how need bigger better faster TV sets and infrastructure every 5 years?

"we" don't - listed companies that somehow have to show year-on-year profit do. The 1080P market is already starting to dry up with sets reaching extremely low prices - the TV manufacturers need something that lets them slam reset and offer something that ups the price.


That said - 4K Projector? Oh my - hold me, wallet, for i fear i will cast you into the firey pit.

 

[Mascot]

Wait... what?
People are using 'next gen' and '30fps' in the same sentence?
If Durango isn't locked 60fps as a minimum spec I will be fucking incandescent with rage.

 

[ll_l_x_l_ll]

"we" don't - listed companies that somehow have to show year-on-year profit do. The 1080P market is already starting to dry up with sets reaching extremely low prices - the TV manufacturers need something that lets them slam reset and offer something that ups the price.


That said - 4K Projector? Oh my - hold me, wallet, for i fear i will cast you into the firey pit.

problem about TVs is you don't throw your old one unless its very old. like a tube TV or something

but if you have a 40 inch LCD that has full HD.

why would i throw that to 4k ?

i didnt see one in person so i dont know how " good " it look compared to full HD.

but i also don't see many people spending lots of $ on a TVs right now. too much money to waste.

when we used to have the old Tube TVs, we needed to change to LCD/ Plasma.

but i dont see us " or at least me " in need to change my LCD to another LCD with higher rez. to me its not that important.

even for a gaming side, i highly doubt many games will support that. and if there is any, it will be stuff like arcade games or 2D games that are not " really " amazing looking game to begin with.

 

[ekim]

Wait... what?
People are using 'next gen' and '30fps' in the same sentence?
If Durango isn't locked 60fps as a minimum spec I will be fucking incandescent with rage.

It has been said multiple times - devs will always choose "better" graphics over more fps.
I would imagine that games running at 1080p/60fps will basically have the same graphical fidelity like current gen games.

 

[ll_l_x_l_ll]

Wait... what?
People are using 'next gen' and '30fps' in the same sentence?
If Durango isn't locked 60fps as a minimum spec I will be fucking incandescent with rage.

if you are looking at current gen graphics with 60fps = you got that
if you are looking at next gen graphics = most likely you wont in most of the games.


better graphics card doesn't mean lock 60 fps if they are going to max the video capabilities with better graphics / animation etc

 

[Sid]

It has been said multiple times - devs will always choose "better" graphics over more fps.
I would imagine that games running at 1080p/60fps will basically have the same graphical fidelity like current gen games.

I think for sports,fighting games etc. you'll get 1080p @ 60fps and 720p @ 30fps for the others.

 

[Canis lupus]

Why kid yourselves guys? We all know that next gen will be 720P and 30FPS.

Some people really underestimate the next consoles.

 

[ekim]

I think for sports,fighting games etc. you'll get 1080p @ 60fps and 720l @ 30fps for the others.

We already have 60fps @720p this gen for these genres. So I bet on that.

 

[Sid]

We already have 60fps @720p this gen for these genres. So I bet on that.

Not for the fighting games like tekken though as they are still sub hd.

 

[jbug617]

http://www.geekwire.com/2012/microsofts-boosts-security-xbox-hq-advance-hardware/





It's getting serious.

Should be a new thread.

 

[ekim]

Should be a new thread.

I defer to you

 

[jeff_rigby]

RE: http://www.geekwire.com/2012/microso...ance-hardware/

I defer to you

I copied your post to the PS4 thread. From two "leaks" the PS4 and Xbox 720 share the same core Silicon. If one is getting Beta platforms with final chipset then the same applies to the other.

 

[RoboPlato]

Why kid yourselves guys? We all know that next gen will be 720P and 30FPS.

The resolution jump from 720p to 1080p is in line with most resolution jumps between generations (2.25x), aside from the extra large one from last gen to this one (3.5x). That combined with the extra time between hardware gens for tech to mature I think 1080p is a going to be a good deal more common than native 720p this gen. 60fps will probably only be a little bit more common, but still the exception, not the rule.

1080p with some AF, SMAA, and a steady 30fps with no tearing should be a resonably attainable goal for next gen.

I also suspect many 60fps games to be 720p and 3D modes to be as well.

 

[ekim]

Afair there are a lot of physics engines that require the game to run at a maximum of 30fps.

 

[Mascot]

It has been said multiple times - devs will always choose "better" graphics over more fps.
I would imagine that games running at 1080p/60fps will basically have the same graphical fidelity like current gen games.

What, even with the rumoured colossal power of these next-gen machines? Holy fuck, if we are in for another generation of gorgeous slide-shows then I'd hardly call that progress. How a game moves is so much more important than how it looks on the back of the box. All that graphical fidelity blurs into a foggy mush at 30fps anyway. I'd like MS & Sony to dictate a minimum locked 60fps frame rate standard to keep devs reigned in, stop them getting carried away with themselves.

But I'm one of those unlucky people who can instantly tell the difference between 30fps and 60fps. Maybe I need to masturbate more.

 

[ekim]

What, even with the rumoured colossal power of these next-gen machines? Holy fuck, if we are in for another generation of gorgeous slide-shows then I'd hardly call that progress. How a game moves is so much more important than how it looks on the back of the box. All that graphical fidelity blurs into a foggy mush at 30fps anyway. I'd like MS & Sony to dictate a minimum locked 60fps frame rate standard to keep devs reigned in, stop them getting carried away with themselves.

But I'm one of those unlucky people who can instantly tell the difference between 30fps and 60fps. Maybe I need to masturbate more.

I'm totally with you but if I set my expectations rather low the surprise may be higher in the end.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

Next gen games at 720p / 30 fps should be what graphic enthusiasts want, because then they can increase the resolution and fps on their PC.

What, even with the rumoured colossal power of these next-gen machines? Holy fuck, if we are in for another generation of gorgeous slide-shows then I'd hardly call that progress. How a game moves is so much more important than how it looks on the back of the box. All that graphical fidelity blurs into a foggy mush at 30fps anyway. I'd like MS & Sony to dictate a minimum locked 60fps frame rate standard to keep devs reigned in, stop them getting carried away with themselves.

But I'm one of those unlucky people who can instantly tell the difference between 30fps and 60fps. Maybe I need to masturbate more.

Again, resolution and framerate has not much to do with hardware power. It is a design choice. You can have a game with 1080p and 60fps on the PS3 right now. But it won't look as good as a game with 720p / 30fps. It will be the same on the PS4. And nothing "blurs" at this framerate, just take a look at movies: they run mostly at 24 fps!

The resolution jump from 720p to 1080p is in line with most resolution jumps between generations (2.25x), aside from the extra large one from last gen to this one (3.5x). That combined with the extra time between hardware gens for tech to mature I think 1080p is a going to be a good deal more common than native 720p this gen. 60fps will probably only be a little bit more common, but still the exception, not the rule.

1080p with some AF, SMAA, and a steady 30fps with no tearing should be a resonably attainable goal for next gen.

I also suspect many 60fps games to be 720p and 3D modes to be as well.

So you think developers should sacrifice hardware power to a 2,25x increase on pixels, which most people won't notice, because they either have still a 720p TV, don't have the right distance to their TV, or just don't care/notice, instead of putting more and better effects on the screen? I am sorry, but if you want high resolutions and high framerates, PC is the answer.

 

[Mascot]

Again, resolution and framerate has not much to do with hardware power. It is a design choice. You can have a game with 1080p and 60fps on the PS3 right now. But it won't look as good as a game with 720p / 30fps. It will be the same on the PS4. And nothing "blurs" at this framerate, just take a look at movies: they run mostly at 24 fps!

Won't "look as good"? Won't look as detailed, maybe. But games have moving graphics, and (for me) all that detail, clarity, fidelity etc is instantly lost at 30fps, especially on fast-moving objects.

And you didn't REALLY just play the old 24fps movie card did you? Oh my. You did.

 

[JimmyRustler]

Again, resolution and framerate has not much to do with hardware power. It is a design choice. You can have a game with 1080p and 60fps on the PS3 right now. But it won't look as good as a game with 720p / 30fps. It will be the same on the PS4. And nothing "blurs" at this framerate, just take a look at movies: they run mostly at 24 fps!

Rage looks better than most shooters (on consoles) but runs at a constant 60 fps. Jus' saying.

 

[F#A#Oo]

What, even with the rumoured colossal power of these next-gen machines? Holy fuck, if we are in for another generation of gorgeous slide-shows then I'd hardly call that progress. How a game moves is so much more important than how it looks on the back of the box. All that graphical fidelity blurs into a foggy mush at 30fps anyway. I'd like MS & Sony to dictate a minimum locked 60fps frame rate standard to keep devs reigned in, stop them getting carried away with themselves.

But I'm one of those unlucky people who can instantly tell the difference between 30fps and 60fps. Maybe I need to masturbate more.

Yes. Yes. Yes! I'd love it!

 

[EvB]

Rage looks better than most shooters (on consoles) but runs at a constant 60 fps. Jus' saying.

Rage also has next to no real time lighting or shadowing. It also dynamically lowers the resolution in order to maintain the frame rate.
It's like a giant 3D painting you can walk around inside and not interact with physically.

I'm not being down on rage, it pulls some incredible tricks , but its not to be placed on a pedestal for its beauty as it really is skin deep.

 

[fritolay]

Can you think of why 1080p might be the upper resolution limit for console games?

Most TV's are 1080p max

 

[DICKS AHOY]

Is there anyway short of getting a computer engineering degree you can teach yourself all these graphic and console terms so it's easier to follow these sort of threads? I always love it when it's rumour time for consoles yet 'leaked' specs almost always mean nothing to me beyond basic stuff like RAM and which 3rd party companies are supplying parts.

I guess it'd also help me plan out how to save up and rebuild my gaming PC for when next-gen rolls around in advance.

 

[RoboPlato]

So you think developers should sacrifice hardware power to a 2,25x increase on pixels, which most people won't notice, because they either have still a 720p TV, don't have the right distance to their TV, or just don't care/notice, instead of putting more and better effects on the screen? I am sorry, but if you want high resolutions and high framerates, PC is the answer.

I'm just saying that 1080p is definitely going to be feasible. I'm 100% positive that not all games will be that, but it won't be as difficult to achieve as 720p this gen. Plus, there are several other benefits I didn't mention before.

There's the "Full HD" marketing term that they'll be able to use and mant people know what that means. It'll get a lot of people to upgrade even if they don't know what exactly that entails.

I also don't think that at 720p many next gen effects will be obvious. Stuff like high quality motion blur and DoF will be more apparent at a higher resolution.

The absolute biggest reason I want 1080p though is smaller HUDs. A higher resolution will allow them to get across the same info in a smaller size.