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George Kamitani responds to Kotaku

The imagery should not matter in itself (whether it fits x or y template, trope), but the interpretations (i.e. the alienation, in this case) people have should.


Agreed, and it is hard to come up with a comparable interpretation for a male design.

The best I can come up with as a thought experiment is something like:

640px-1159296146_hitsugaya_wallpaper.jpg



Imagine this as the standard male design in games and media. Maybe give players the option to dress him up in a variety of fashionable clothes and generally treat him like a toy.

If too many games start to use that style, men would probably get annoyed.

Of course, it still wouldn't illustrate the problem women have with certain overused character designs and lack of variety, because it doesn't have the same real world issues to go with it.
 

cicero

Member
Ugh, don't play that card. Nobody is trying to stop you from voicing your opinion, they're just trying to stop you from posting a load of irrelevant bullshit over and over again, as much for your own sake as for the sake of the thread.
That you didn't like or agree with it doesn't make what I said irrelevant. It was relevant to my position or the responses I was responding to.
 

Riposte

Member
Agreed, and it is hard to come up with a comparable interpretation for a male design.

The best I can come up with as a thought experiment is something like:

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090808113859/dragonball/images/thumb/4/4a/1159296146_hitsugaya_wallpaper.jpg/640px-1159296146_hitsugaya_wallpaper.jpg[img]


Imagine this as the standard male design in games and media. Maybe give players the option to dress him up in a variety of fashionable clothes and generally treat him like a toy.

If too many games start to use that style, men would probably get annoyed.

Of course, it still wouldn't illustrate the problem women have with certain overused character designs and lack of variety, because it doesn't have the same real world issues to go with it.[/QUOTE]

You don't need to go with an extreme hypothetical. Just look at the reaction to Raiden, Tidus, and Vaan.
 

frequency

Member
Well it's complicated. First of all the features that we consider sexual on women are quite obvious and the conventional fashions throughout history (even the so called "conservative" ones) have accentuated these features. It's not really the same with men because they haven't been sexualized to the degree of women in plenty of cultures. A lot of people have thought a man merely being shirtless is enough but much of the representations portray a musclehead that's not particularly appealing to the opposite gender but a manifestation of power and strength. The best example of this would be Kratos, not particularly sexy at all just over the top hypermasculinity. Someone a bit closer to what it would be is Dante from DMC but even that's not a completely good example.

Hmm. I think we may have misunderstood each other.

I guess everyone is different so it's hard to say what is sexualised. Which I guess is one big reason for disagreements in this (and other) threads.

My question of equally appealing to both gender preferences is that we don't have enough of sexualised males. I'm not saying topless and tight clothing is automatically sexual. Just like breast size isn't necessarily a measure of sexuality. There are other aspects of design. So yes, I agree Kratos is not what I would consider sexy.

But this I would:
Dante is the closest I can think of as well (at least from mainstream western titles).

And I would guess a large number of male players would be uncomfortable if a large number of male characters were designed similarly to these men. And I was thinking maybe that is a decent example for male players to try to relate to female players who are uncomfortable with certain designs.

I'm sorry if I'm not properly describing my perspective of male sexuality.

Note: Also, I know the split isn't male vs female. There are males and females on both sides. It's just easiest to talk about it this way.
 
Hmm. I think we may have misunderstood each other.

I guess everyone is different so it's hard to say what is sexualised. Which I guess is one big reason for disagreements in this (and other) threads.

My question of equally appealing to both gender preferences is that we don't have enough of sexualised males. I'm not saying topless and tight clothing is automatically sexual. Just like breast size isn't necessarily a measure of sexuality. There are other aspects of design. So yes, I agree Kratos is not what I would consider sexy.

But this I would:


And I would guess a large number of male players would be uncomfortable with a large number of male characters were designed similarly to these men. And I was thinking maybe that is a decent example for male players to try to relate to female players who are uncomfortable with certain designs.

I'm sorry if I'm not properly describing my perspective of male sexuality.

Note: Also, I know the split isn't male vs female. There are males and females on both sides. It's just easiest to talk about it this way.

Some women find those guys to be sexy, I just don't. But I can see where your coming from. And I mostly agree.
 

Wereroku

Member
Those are some very feminized men. Is that a big fashion thing now? I wouldn't feel uncomfortable playing a char like that because its a game not a representation of myself but I have pretty decent self esteem which has a profound effect on self image issues.
 
You don't need to go with an extreme hypothetical. Just look at the reaction to Raiden, Tidus, and Vaan.

TBH those characters aren't liked because their personalities suck. Raiden in MGS2 was really whiny and his problems with Rose made you wish Snake just choked them both out. Though Raiden is pretty badass in MGR and he still has a pretty boy face, just dressed up in cybernetics. Tidus is just awkward and Vaan...what the hell is Vaan suppose to do? You could say Balthier is a handsome (reminded me of a James Bond-ish kind of persona) and people liked him.
 
Is this the same tri-dwarf image as the one posted in this thread?

What is gay about that image? They look like wrestlers.

But I agree that simply making something "gay" doesn't mean you are implying harm.
It looks to me like they're giving each other backrubs. Whether the image itself is inherently homoerotic or not, the message of, "If you don't like the sorceress and boobs, maybe scantily-clad males are more your fancy" seems like a pretty blatant gay joke to me. Just not a homophobic joke or a joke with any hate or negativity directed at homosexuality in and of itself, i.e. not something for anyone to get hot and bothered over.

If they were having a discussion, it would be a puerile non-point, but I took it more as a puerile "Well fuck you too, buddy!" in response to the more seriously problematic Kotaku article directed at him. Not defending it or championing it, just saying I don't think it was homophobic or worth any serious mention from anyone, especially not another article on Kotaku.
 

Infinite

Member
Those are some very feminized men. Is that a big fashion thing now? I wouldn't feel uncomfortable playing a char like that because its a game not a representation of myself but I have pretty decent self esteem which has a profound effect on self image issues.

Those are male Japanese idols. I think those particular images are from photobooks. And I mean like I play FF games so I guess I don't have that problem you're talking about
 
Edit: I replied to most of cicero's point but realized this does nothing but further derail the discussion, so I deleted the whole post. Carry on.
 
Your "apology" was worded like this:
"First, I should make it clear that I do not actually believe that Kamitani is a 14-year-old boy, and I apologize for the insult. My point should have been clearer."
It was the twelveth paragraph (third page) of an article titled "The Real Problem With That Controversial, Sexy Video Game Sorceress [UPDATE]" where paragraphs three to eight explained the offensive "homophobic" joke Kamitani played at your expense.

I hope you'll excuse me if I'm not exactly sensing much regret or shame behind your actions, and certainly not from offending Kamitani.

THIS. So much THIS.

What's worse is that the guy then comes onto this thread, links to a bunch of Kotaku stories, essentially asking for hits on his site, all under the auspices of "See, we do good journalism too!" I honestly don't understand why Kotaku isn't banned from GAF at this point, considering how notorious they are for baiting game creators in the hopes of creating news stories.

And Jschreier has a BA in writing...not even journalism. So it's not surprising he doesn't really understand journalistic ethics, all he knows about is ways to turn a buck on his blog.
 
I honestly don't understand why Kotaku isn't banned from GAF at this point, considering how notorious they are for baiting game creators in the hopes of creating news stories.

I personally can only hope they already have one foot on the grave, so to speak. But I'm afraid too many people like them for this to happen, perhaps?

But this I would:

Dante is the closest I can think of as well (at least from mainstream western titles).

And I would guess a large number of male players would be uncomfortable if a large number of male characters were designed similarly to these men. And I was thinking maybe that is a decent example for male players to try to relate to female players who are uncomfortable with certain designs.

I'm sorry if I'm not properly describing my perspective of male sexuality.

Don't apologize; it's almost impossible to find a paralel to the female sexualization situation in the male case. There's actually a few videogame characters that look mostly like that, mostly from Japanese games (which ironically tend to care for female gamers quite a lot more than western games). Mainstream games, even:
I'm all for having lots more characters like these. I'm all for giving some visual candy to women. I got my first GF interested in Final Fantasy thanks to Cloud and Sephiroth. :D

But even saturating games with shirtless ephebes is just not a good analogy; and I guess precisely the fact that I (and probably most males) would be OK with this, is the best proof of that. There is a lot more social and cultural baggage, a lot more implications and consequences about women sexualization, at least in today's society, which is of course exacerbated by the fact that it is just so much more common.

As a side note, I kind of feel silly talking about something that doesn't affect me, or at least not nearly as directly, as it does women in this thread, so please feel free to share your thoughts. I'm not even sure us guys are contributing much more than nonsense, misconceptions and other background noise, in fact. :/

Edit: I just had a strange though. Dante is entirely shirtless during the first stage of DMC3, then he changes to this, which he wears during the entire game:
The strange thing is, while at first it felt a bit weird, after that it actually felt kind of empowering. Here's a dude who doesn't give two fucks about what other people, including players, think. He likes to and can show off, in more senses than one. Perhaps this is the best paralelism with women that love playing as Bayonetta (which, I'll admit, felt kind of similar)?
 
Jason how do you feel about Jessica Rabbit, just out of curiosity?

I think her proportions are exaggerated in a non altogether dissimilar fashion from the Sorceress, and she was in a kids movie (not sure what this game will be rated but I'm guess T for teen at least.) And her boobs jiggled and there was a fair amount of sexual innuendo about her.
 
What. That is not Dante from Devil May Cry. That's from 3: Dante's Awakening.

This is what he looks like in the first game.

Anime version.

Gah, yes, of course. That's what I meant, it was a typo. I even had a paragraph compring him to the previous (technically future) Dantes, but deleted it because it sounded corny. >_< DMC3 is my favorite action game of all time, tied with Bayonetta!
 

AlucardGV

Banned
Those are some very feminized men. Is that a big fashion thing now? I wouldn't feel uncomfortable playing a char like that because its a game not a representation of myself but I have pretty decent self esteem which has a profound effect on self image issues.
Those are male Japanese idols. I think those particular images are from photobooks. And I mean like I play FF games so I guess I don't have that problem you're talking about

looks like japanese version of bieber and one direction.
 

Zoe

Member
Those are male Japanese idols. I think those particular images are from photobooks. And I mean like I play FF games so I guess I don't have that problem you're talking about

To be clear, all idols from their specific agency are marketed like that. Other rival agencies don't really adhere to that image, but Johnny's Entertainment (unfairly) dominates the industry.
 

frequency

Member
As a side note, I kind of feel silly talking about something that doesn't affect me, or at least not nearly as directly, as it does women in this thread, so please feel free to share your thoughts. I'm not even sure us guys are contributing much more than nonsense, misconceptions and other background noise, in fact. :/
Everyone can talk about anything. As long as people are receptive of opinions other than their own, especially if they do not have direct knowledge of the specific subject. It only bothers me when people who would have no idea tell me that my experiences are wrong because they just don't agree with it even if they have no direct experience themselves.

But these discussions really do require involvement from all sides.

looks like japanese version of bieber and one direction.
I'm not familiar with western idols but I would assume it would be the equivalent.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyrnuygDS1k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lS27QjVJIAY

Here's an english one (cheating a little, not really H!S!J!):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPwJiHG4hzk

I'm getting off topic but I would talk about Hey! Say! JUMP! any opportunity I can.


Anyway, there are a lot of scenes or art where a female character is directly sexy-posing for the viewer or winking at the viewer or whatever. But that is not true of male characters. Like, would it be acceptable in the current gaming community if there was a lot more of this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmfaQFh-tvo) kind of thing?

So if people truly believe sexuality should stay, then it means the sexualisation of men should dramatically increase. Right now women are just more sexualised than men and so that imbalance can be attributed to sexism by some people. It's probably because most developers are straight men and probably aren't comfortable sexualising men (or don't even know how to). I'm not sure how that can be fixed.
 

Tellaerin

Member
So if people truly believe sexuality should stay, then it means the sexualisation of men should dramatically increase. Right now women are just more sexualised than men and so that imbalance can be attributed to sexism by some people. It's probably because most developers are straight men and probably aren't comfortable sexualising men (or don't even know how to). I'm not sure how that can be fixed.

The solution's simple. We need to get more women and gay males into game design positions, and publishers need to greenlight characters/games that target these audiences. The hard part is actually implementing that.
 
Everyone can talk about anything. As long as people are receptive of opinions other than their own, especially if they do not have direct knowledge of the specific subject. It only bothers me when people who would have no idea tell me that my experiences are wrong because they just don't agree with it even if they have no direct experience themselves.

And it has even happened in this thread, yeah. Spanish people have a saying: "la ignorancia es atrevida" (ignorance is bold).

Anyway, there are a lot of scenes or art where a female character is directly sexy-posing for the viewer or winking at the viewer or whatever. But that is not true of male characters. Like, would it be acceptable in the current gaming community if there was a lot more of this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmfaQFh-tvo) kind of thing?

I wouldn't have any problem with something like that (BTW, Gackt is awesome), and some DMC games have Dante (the player's projection) do similar stuff (for an hypothetic female/gay audience, not necessarily the player), which is actually kind of cool. There's a couple of times in DMC4 when I found it forced and embarrassing, but mostly for the insanely cheesy/juvenile dialog that I think anyone would find pretty sad too:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNYeNz4nHaM
Then again, DMC4 sexed up like crazy all of their characters, including Lady, one of my favorite DMC characters who was given the standard "raise cup by two sizes, open zipper to half body" treatment from 3 to 4, and reduced from one of the most interesting and nuanced DMC characters to pretty much a wallflower. They even gave her shades to hide one of her most striking and defining features, heterochromia. :/

So if people truly believe sexuality should stay,

Well, that's part of the discussion, really. I don't think anything is decided (nor, probably, will ever be) about whether sexualization is a good tool to use, or a crutch. I myself have no opinion either way yet. This is not the same as sexuality, by the way, which I do think is a healthy component of many well-written characters and stories.

I rather think it's more like people have given up on the industry ever dialing down by itself the rampant sexualization of women (since demand will always be there), and, rather than advocate censorship (which is almost by definition always evil), they wish to balance the scales by adding male sexualization, which is all but nonexistent currently. I can't help but think it's only fair, and worst case scenario, if some males do truly find it offensive, perhaps this will help them rethink about the whole subject at large.

then it means the sexualisation of men should dramatically increase. Right now women are just more sexualised than men and so that imbalance can be attributed to sexism by some people. It's probably because most developers are straight men and probably aren't comfortable sexualising men (or don't even know how to). I'm not sure how that can be fixed.

I actually think the problem is more with the publishers than developers, which I address below. This is also why I think self-publishing, the indie scene, Kickstarter and such might end up being great factors to at least start changing several of these issues.

The solution's simple. We need to get more women and gay males into game design positions, and publishers need to greenlight characters/games that target these audiences. The hard part is actually implementing that.

Completely agreed; also, games that truly target both audiences (not a "default male" audience like it is now). And there IS stuff we can do. We can start by supporting games with a large percentage of women in the design team. The one game I've played most and loved from summer 2012 is Guild Wars 2, and at least their lead lore designer, as well as several other designers, are female:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXORsebPy80
Unsurprisingly, Guild Wars 2 is rather egalitarian for an MMO, with default female bodies being pretty "normal", a much smaller than usual percentage of armors being more revealing on females than males, and the ability to make guys that don't look like Conan rejects (here's my two humans):
There are more games designed by women. If I remember correctly one of the key people that designed Portal was a woman, and lo and behold, the main character is a strong, independent, non-sexualized woman who's not the love interest of anyone (even if arguably her gender is mostly irrelevant to the game's plot).
Also, get the word out. Each time someone says that games are targetted at males because that's what sells, remind them that 47% of all games are female!
 
I rather think it's more like people have given up on the industry ever dialing down by itself the rampant sexualization of women (since demand will always be there), and, rather than advocate censorship (which is almost by definition always evil), they wish to balance the scales by adding male sexualization, which is all but nonexistent currently. I can't help but think it's only fair, and worst case scenario, if some males do truly find it offensive, perhaps this will help them rethink about the whole subject at large.

This is how I feel, if a game wants to feature sexuality, regardless of writing quality, it needs to be equitable with it's exposed skin. If men in thongs with exposed chests feel out of place in your game, do not put the ladies in the same outfit. I dislike a non-nuanced opposition to revealing outfits because it implies the body or clothing itself and my enjoyment of it is whats wrong (at least thats how I read it).
Gaming is escapism and that should always have room for sexuality where appropriate (Dead Space 3, seriously, wtf).
 

JordanN

Banned
So if people truly believe sexuality should stay, then it means the sexualisation of men should dramatically increase.
To me, it was never about just sexuality. In fact, just leaving alone sexuality doesn't actually fix the situation at hand (i.e women in games).

Instead, it was people just attacking character designs and nothing else.

I think it all comes down to reception. Developers need to know sexualized character isn't always the way to go or what the market wants.

Now, having disapproval is a good start. What went wrong is when "games journalism" turned it into an all out attack on an artist by branding them something they're not (without good evidence).

Something like "big boobs seriously? Do we need more of this in games?" would have been an appropriate response instead of "BIG BOOBS? WHAT ARE YOU? A 14 YEAR OLD? YOU MUST ALSO USE DRAWINGS TO HATE WOMEN TOO. LOL".
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
This is how I feel, if a game wants to feature sexuality, regardless of writing quality, it needs to be equitable with it's exposed skin. If men in thongs with exposed chests feel out of place in your game, do not put the ladies in the same outfit.

Shouldn't some games be able to target one gender demographic or another? I don't see why something should strive for "unisex" appeal unless it is supposed to be massively mainstream family entertainment.
 
Shouldn't some games be able to target one gender demographic or another? I don't see why something should strive for "unisex" appeal unless it is supposed to be massively mainstream family entertainment.

I gave a more nuanced opinion in the mysogyny thread, but yes I also agree with what you're saying, so long as it's honest about who it's catering to. Scarlet Blade may be a joke of a free to play mmo with it's beyond silly characters, but at least it's honest with it's advertising. They cater to people who want ladies with big jugs, and let you know upfront.

If a game is trying to be inclusive (mass market), like a big budget MMO (Rift, WoW, etc), then it's unfair to treat the sexes differently, in my opinion.
 
AAK over in OT had a thread about this: http://neuroscienceoflife.com/2013/04/22/the-male-brains-response-to-sexualized-women/

It's an interesting read about how sexualised women are perceived by the male brain. And if it is accurate, discounts many of the arguments supporting sexualisation as empowerment or whatever.

Of course one study is just one study. But it's interesting.

Seems kind of common sense. Sexualization can be personal empowerment, "I feel good about my body I want to flaunt it" but not "I've got a great body so everyone will respect my mind." Guys will be guys when looking at exposed skin. Although that study could be useful for a dev trying to write a strong female character, if they expose their cleavage like Dead Space did, it will likely be detrimental to the character. Reason I liked the new Lara design. The skin they did expose became cut and scarred, reminded me how much she had been through rather than how hot she was.
 
Shouldn't some games be able to target one gender demographic or another? I don't see why something should strive for "unisex" appeal unless it is supposed to be massively mainstream family entertainment.

Of course games should have the freedom to do what they want, but as a general rule, I'm not convinced about the inherent goodness of targetting one gender. I understand the theory, but I simply disagree that it is the path to better entertainment and art; I don't think it's what designers should strive for.

In my opinion, this further unnecesarily divides the gaming population, exaggerating the differences between genders. Time and again it has been demonstrated that if a game is good, it will often appeal to both genders. OK, I may be editorializing a bit, since I dislike FPSs, driving games and sport games :D. But even so, it seems to me that gender-specific pandering is a crutch. It does not lead to better, more groundbreaking games.

There is another part that I deeply dislike about this concept, and that is that I don't want to replace the image of guys playing videogames in one room while girls do other things in another, with the reality of men playing one game in one room and women playing an entirely different game in another. I want all of us to play together; playing is a very strong form of communication and if these threads have told us anything, is that you can't have too much inter-gender communication.

For all the evils that MMOs may have brought to the world, one can't deny that bringing together gamers of both genders is one of the positives.

AAK over in OT had a thread about this: http://neuroscienceoflife.com/2013/04/22/the-male-brains-response-to-sexualized-women/

It's an interesting read about how sexualised women are perceived by the male brain. And if it is accurate, discounts many of the arguments supporting sexualisation as empowerment or whatever.

Of course one study is just one study. But it's interesting.

Oh god, whoever though that a gray font over a gray background is a good idea should be shot. :S The article is interesting, and confirms what I guess everyone pretty much thought, but seems incomplete (it implies that a similar study had been also made regarding dehumanization of men images by women, but fails to report any result either way).
 

AkuMifune

Banned

Great video. Agreed the Elf is an example of good design, and shows that it takes more talent to draw sexy while being limited (how talented Kamitani can be). Also a great point that when the discussion dies, we don't learn anything.

Unfortunately I don't think the discussion he wants to have can be had around this game, with loaded opinions on all sides before the opening gun has even sounded.

So on that note we'll be having the roundtable in the large GAF conference room at 8, in person. Don't bring anything sharp, please. I've volunteered to bring the scotch and a few blunts to be passed around, respectfully.

Wish we could do that.
 
In Japan, these illustration requests can even be as specific as something like female characters in swimwear. In these requests as well, the Dwarf was nowhere to be seen.
.

I do find it disburbing how Japanese artists feel obliged to have to provide illustrations of all of their female (and maybe male?) characters in bathing suits. Or in various stages of undress regardless of character design. Large-breasted characters are fine, but this kind of promotional material is pure exploitation.

Kamitani seems like a nice guy though. He handled it about as well as anyone could after being dismissed as a 14 year old.
 
Great video. Agreed the Elf is an example of good design, and shows that it takes more talent to draw sexy while being limited (how talented Kamitani can be). Also a great point that when the discussion dies, we don't learn anything.

Oddly enough, while I personally don't like the Sorceress as much as the Elf, I don't think the Sorceress is a "bad" or even "worse" character design. Both designs had entirely different objectives, and I think both were accomplished well, much like the Dwarf and Wizard both succeed as well. Kamitani is an amazing artist; he's not prone to bad or even mediocre designs.

Unfortunately I don't think the discussion he wants to have can be had around this game, with loaded opinions on all sides before the opening gun has even sounded.

We've actually had a bit of it over here for a while, actually. I just realized that if it wasn't Kamitani and VanillaWare being attacked, I might actually be one of the ones 100% convinced of their viewpoints. The unique combination of a subject that usually has me in arms (sexism), with a company I would be in arms to defend (Vanillaware), has allowed (forced!) me to reevaluate, reconsider and think carefully about a lot of things in order to be able to reconcile both points of view without falling into cognitive dissonance. This is a really awesome thing, in the end. :)
 
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