Jmanunknown
Member
That is a bad idea remember Microsoft had a problem with people's xbox live accounts getting stolen for about and a year and half possibly two years. This type of system could lead to a lot of head aches for consumers.
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MCV: Retail sources talk used Xbox One games, £35 for used game in UK [U2: Eurogamer]
- Thread starter gofreak
- Start date
That is a bad idea remember Microsoft had a problem with people's xbox live accounts getting stolen for about and a year and half possibly two years. This type of system could lead to a lot of head aches for consumers.
U n i o n 0015
Member
The only way to win is not to play the game.
I really hope Sony is not going down this needlessly complicated path because I'll just bow out of next-generation entirely. I'll vote with my dollars.
I really hope Sony is not going down this needlessly complicated path because I'll just bow out of next-generation entirely. I'll vote with my dollars.
Castle Doctrine
Member
Love how Microsoft weaseled their way in to get a totally undeserved cut of a used game sale.
I hope Sony doesn't also have a convoluted mess of a used game system like this. If they don't they should market that fact extensively, and in a sane world consumers will reward them for it.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Why does MS get a cut?
Consoles are around 3%. Games are 20%. Accessories vary. Marketing dollars are based on how much the retailer orders and then deferred of of future invoices(DFI for short) Usually its 1-2%. May not seem like a lot, but losing Microsoft means also losing all of the products sold that would work on the system. This includes all of the marketing money from the third parties and more importantly mindshare. If I own both systems, am I going to a store where I can only buy a game for one or do I go to another store where everything is available. All of this leads to money.
So not only would your live account be compromised but so would all your games. So it makes it even more a target for account thieves.
Various Artists
Banned
I'm sure someone said this a out update 2 but ill mention it anyways.
The company accepting the used game will pass off the cost to the Customer. In fact they may use it for increased profits. For instance. Say someone is trading in COD Ghost Dogs for Xbone. GameStop rep says well we have to pay an $8 fee to have this repurposed so we can only offer $22 of trade in credit instead of $30. Now they resell it at $50 instead of $45 and say we had to pay $8 to repurpose this disc so we can't sell for cheaper!
The company accepting the used game will pass off the cost to the Customer. In fact they may use it for increased profits. For instance. Say someone is trading in COD Ghost Dogs for Xbone. GameStop rep says well we have to pay an $8 fee to have this repurposed so we can only offer $22 of trade in credit instead of $30. Now they resell it at $50 instead of $45 and say we had to pay $8 to repurpose this disc so we can't sell for cheaper!
It's the same as Microsoft receiving a cut for a newly purchased game. That's the point of this system, to potentially regain revenue lost to used games.
BlastProcessing
Member
So this is how game collecting dies.
Anyone who had their money on overreaching corporate hubris, congratulations!
Anyone who had their money on overreaching corporate hubris, congratulations!
Principate
Saint Titanfall
This is a point, clearly Microsoft and publishers have thought about this scenario shouldn't they?
Even EA's online passes are preferable to this. This is far worse.
At least with them the consumer could resell/give their game to whoever they wanted...and choose whether to use the online pass or not to ensure they kept the value high....and the buyer could choose to play it offline or buy a new pass if the old one was used.
You've got no choice with this method.
robertsan21
Member
Just dont support this kind of thinking. It´s anti consumer bullshit! Be smart and dont accept it!
Sony better go the other way around and they will have my money!
Sony better go the other way around and they will have my money!
Incendiary
Banned
I think this is what I'm most worried about. The process might sound good on paper, but there's a whole bunch of X factors that aren't being considered. If there's problems with the servers, people won't be able to play games they own. What happens if I own a game but don't sell it, and there's a mistake and I get denied access to my own game? Can you imagine going through Microsoft support and the headache that would cause? It just seems like a lot of online hassle and fidgeting around with accounts and shit that could open up a world of pain.
BlastProcessing
Member
Also, I don't exactly trust Gamestop employees as it is, now they are empowered with the ability to wipe games off my account? Awesome.
What else? They're coming up with their cloud crap just to justify this. It's exactly like Sim City's PR crap about "the experience".
Why not?
Jacksonlee
Member
have we still not yet come to a consensus regarding this?
it's obviously bad, no way around it - people who don't seem to think this is bad should be convinced by now....
right?
are we going to reject this console?
it's obviously bad, no way around it - people who don't seem to think this is bad should be convinced by now....
right?
are we going to reject this console?
It's been discussed. Apparently GS only gets 10 percent of the cut. So it seems the player and Gamestop are both getting the shaft. It seems, at this point, it's just a glorified coupon that just let's them say people can sell their games, while effectively killing it from a practical pov. Who's trading in their games for a couple dollars? Not many.
UrSuLeTZuL
Banned
Not to me it doesn't.
Neuromancer
Member
Good point. I still don't like the current system though (as proposed).
Crimson_Gold
Member
No. You will find many that are actively making purchase plans. It is a fight that may have been lost before it ever began. Brand loyalty and affection for certain series is to blame.
Duxxy3
Member
I certainly hope so.
Kobun Heat
Member
This is just the classic old flawed argument:
This is missing a huge part of the equation. Where did GameStop *get* that disc to resell in the first place? It didn't magically appear. They didn't counterfeit it. It's a new game that was sold to someone at full price. And that consumer -- especially given how quickly they traded the game in -- is not stupid. They're factoring in the game's resale value when they purchase a new game in the first place. It's not necessarily a "lost sale" in the aggregate, which is what we are talking about, because some percentage of that cash was only spent in the first place because it was being spent on a durable good with significant resale value.
And then, of course, there's a good chance that guy got the money to buy your new game in the first place because he traded in his old games.
The point is that this is a complex situation, and that this idea that there is a 1:1 relationship, that a used game bought is a "lost sale," is fallacious. I'm not saying for sure that it's a net negative or a net positive once all the dust has settled, I'm saying it is not knowable and that Microsoft and publishers are messing with something that nobody truly understands because we've never had an A-B test.
Again: Not necessarily. It is entirely plausible that the existence of a robust used market could be an overall boost to the fortunes of the game platform, since cheaper games mean a lower barrier to entry, which means more customers, which means more revenue for Microsoft from consoles, accessories, Xbox Live subscriptions, etc.
So again: Extremely complex system, impossible to unravel with any certainty. I don't think Microsoft is concerned that they're losing money off used games sales, I think they have a broader vision that involves bringing all game ownership permissions into "the cloud," which necessarily means moving the notion of "possession" from the disc to the account.
Used games are not the target, they're an innocent bystander.
This is missing a huge part of the equation. Where did GameStop *get* that disc to resell in the first place? It didn't magically appear. They didn't counterfeit it. It's a new game that was sold to someone at full price. And that consumer -- especially given how quickly they traded the game in -- is not stupid. They're factoring in the game's resale value when they purchase a new game in the first place. It's not necessarily a "lost sale" in the aggregate, which is what we are talking about, because some percentage of that cash was only spent in the first place because it was being spent on a durable good with significant resale value.
And then, of course, there's a good chance that guy got the money to buy your new game in the first place because he traded in his old games.
The point is that this is a complex situation, and that this idea that there is a 1:1 relationship, that a used game bought is a "lost sale," is fallacious. I'm not saying for sure that it's a net negative or a net positive once all the dust has settled, I'm saying it is not knowable and that Microsoft and publishers are messing with something that nobody truly understands because we've never had an A-B test.
Again: Not necessarily. It is entirely plausible that the existence of a robust used market could be an overall boost to the fortunes of the game platform, since cheaper games mean a lower barrier to entry, which means more customers, which means more revenue for Microsoft from consoles, accessories, Xbox Live subscriptions, etc.
So again: Extremely complex system, impossible to unravel with any certainty. I don't think Microsoft is concerned that they're losing money off used games sales, I think they have a broader vision that involves bringing all game ownership permissions into "the cloud," which necessarily means moving the notion of "possession" from the disc to the account.
Used games are not the target, they're an innocent bystander.
i asked this in another thread, but if we're reducing console games to PC-style fire-and-forget steam codes in a box, who the hell is going to pay full price if there's another option? gamestop et al will just turn in to legitimised versions of those eastern european CD key re-seller sites.
H_Prestige
Banned
So I can't sell games on amazon or ebay like I'm used to. Yeah, that sounds real great.
BlastProcessing
Member
This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a server check
Not with a bang but a server check
I already addressed other forms of physical media - music has alternate revenue streams (concerts, radio play, etc). Books are very different, same with movies.
Games didn't always used to have such huge budgets, but then again the cost to consumer of individual games was MUCH higher. Hell, SF2, in the early 90s, sold for something like 90$ to consumers. Translated with inflation to today, that's around 150$. You see where I'm going with this? It's not only that publishers made bets, it's that game production costs have gone WAY up and game prices have not adjusted as much throughout the years.
My conclusion is that yes, Gamestop does fuck up publishers and MS. It's quite simple, and you can't just say "Well they can have lawyers do this or that" because they sell them product. It's still first sale doctrine, more or less - Gamestop buys them from whoever sells them new, has sell-through warranties and such, but that's it. It's not like MS can come in and tell them how to run their business. All they can do is make it harder for them to screw them up.
Most used games are actually sold by Gamestop and other retailers. They are incredibly HUGE. I get you live in Brazil and in South America you mostly do user to user sales, but it's an anomaly more than anything.
I still think Microsoft is fucking consumers with this measure as it's going MUCH too far (that much you must not have read from my post!)
As others have stated, there are alternate revenue streams specifically targeted at used games (online passes, DLC, day 1 DLC, etc). The problem is those revenue streams are minimal (verrrry minimal) so they don't make enough to cover for what they lose.
I think Microsoft is actually trying to get away from the retail model and having everyone buy games online on their store, instead. If they manage to make the average joe think "well the disc is useless!" then they'll only buy online. Then who wins? Nobody but MS.
Gamespot will always stock MS products simply because they make money off them. They might not do used games, though, because it'll be a waste of time and money. You'll still need people to process a lot more data from used games and they won't be able to sell them for cheap, so they'll have to pay less to customers and charge more (which is ridiculous). I think it'll be the death of their industry.
I see, I agree that EA is likely to push for it on their own games. I think thats a given with them as they have always been one of the more heavy handed publishers in reguards to DRM issues. There just seems to be a sentiment that Sony is just going to fall in line to western publishers despite the fact that Sony is the one to beat in the countries where these issues would hurt them the most. Japan is currently "almost" a lock for them on a home console front, despite Japans increasing focus on mobile, I just dont see them following through with a policy that woukd likely cripple them there.
I could be mistaken, but I think splitting something like this up between regions would be a difficult thing to do. I would also think it would require region locking which would be a first for Sony. Anything is possible, especially until we get full details from them directly on their stance, but I think the most likely scenario is they keep thr same policy as the PS3. So with EA games, Ubi, and some others you will have DRM.
However games from the likes of Sony, Nis, Atlus, CDPR, Konami,etc will either have online passes, or no DRM.Also interesting to note is that to my knowledge Activision has never joined in on the Online Pass system, but I rarely buy their games so im not sure, just what I have been told.
Jacksonlee
Member
Samir Sedlar
Member
YES.
What, pray tell, is the actual target?
This sounds really horrible, I wonder how much we get for selling our used games when MS\publishers\retailers have to do a 3 way split. Does this mean MS will set a MSRP for used games also?
The most recent (new) game I've sold was Tales of Graces f on PS3 about 3 weeks after I purchased it, and I was able to get like $50 for it. I can't imagine we'd get much selling to MS authorized retailers. This is a fucken joke.
The most recent (new) game I've sold was Tales of Graces f on PS3 about 3 weeks after I purchased it, and I was able to get like $50 for it. I can't imagine we'd get much selling to MS authorized retailers. This is a fucken joke.
If rumors are true and used game sales start at $50, what do you think those games sold as new would cost? Nothing under $50 that's for sure.
I think Sony and gamers would be fine paying $60 for a new game instead of the $50-$59 if it means they can buy used games at under $50.
I just don't see Sony doing this (remember they said they didn't have a console enabled DRM feature and they aren't requiring online at all).
Plus they would be cutting the future of their business in half. Retailers will have to take it, I don't see how they have a choice.
Download sizes of new gen games are likely to be large, so there may still be a use for discs.
The 10% retailer cut has been withdrawn by EG:
Pyramid head
Banned
This whole thing sounds like a tedious ball ache. A clusterfuck waiting to happen.
Hey, remember when videogames used to be fun?
Hey, remember when videogames used to be fun?
GregLombardi
Member
So if I'm understanding this right, Microsoft / EA / Activision have decided to shift buying power of consumers into profit power of corporations? And they think this will help the industry?
Hahahahahahahahahaha.....
Hahahahahahahahahaha.....
Kobun Heat
Member
See the paragraph immediately before that one.
BlastProcessing
Member
is that quote famous, or am i the only one who got this ?
TS Elliot, The Hollowmen
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a whimper.
Seemed appropriate.
Crag Dweller
aka kindbudmaster
I have a feeling that people will be able to figure out how to game this system pretty quickly.
MikeE21286
Member
Unless......Amazon or eBay came up with a way for them to administer the de-activiation.
But honestly, the way the pricing model is structured, no there's no way you would even want to.
Quadraphonic
Member
How are they going to verify you own the game before they remove it from your account?
Do you login to the store? Do you just give them your GamerTag? Do you pre-register for trade-in at home?
Do you login to the store? Do you just give them your GamerTag? Do you pre-register for trade-in at home?
BlastProcessing
Member
This really is one of those times where we can be thankful that Japanese console makers don't really get this whole internet thing.
makingmusic476
Member
This puts control of pricing in the hands of publishers instead of retailers adjusting in response to an over/underabundance of games. Say goodbye to bargain bin games that have long been out of print if the publisher is still pushing a $29.99 msrp.
This will heavily damage the used game market for XBO, and it will make it so that consoles will always be priced out of the poorest markets, no matter how long they wait to jump in.
PS2 offered a treasure trove of games for poor kids to buy for a couple of bucks in 2008-2012. I worked at a GameStop near a very poor neighborhood from 2008-2010, and cheapass PS2 games were all the kids coming in could afford.
This will heavily damage the used game market for XBO, and it will make it so that consoles will always be priced out of the poorest markets, no matter how long they wait to jump in.
PS2 offered a treasure trove of games for poor kids to buy for a couple of bucks in 2008-2012. I worked at a GameStop near a very poor neighborhood from 2008-2010, and cheapass PS2 games were all the kids coming in could afford.
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
Yes there can be. Xbox is always online and PS4 ain't. The biggest reaosn (imo) that Sony will not do this is because used games is a massive thing in Japan and this will hurt them there.
megabytecr
Member
I never wanted to get the new xbone, and with all the shit thats going on ... hum well no thanks.
I am going 3DS, Wii U, and either PS4/PC/steambox to replace my PS3.
If PS4 goes this way also, the decision will be very easy.
I am going 3DS, Wii U, and either PS4/PC/steambox to replace my PS3.
If PS4 goes this way also, the decision will be very easy.
Beer Monkey
Member
You know what? If Sony doesn't do this, I'm buying a PS4 at launch. Not being salty, just pragmatic. I'm moving more towards Steam but I do like the console experience.
maquiladora
Member
- More $.
- Makes piracy more difficult.
- Control over and metrics of every single game sold/re-sold.
Great post and addresses a lot of the issues with used games that not many are seeing, especially publishers.
Although used games aren't the target, I think it's safe to say Microsoft is using that angle to convince publishers to get on board so they can expand the Xbox Live ecosystem with their Cloud service. Microsoft wins since everything is in their walled off little garden and they win again because they make publishers happy that they'll get a cut out of used games sales for a change. Consumers lose.