Thanks; I get all of that. I don't want them to say "I develop for so and so" however I think just by saying they know their stuff, work in the industry and know about it with some explanations would go a long way for people like me. It won't probably help people who say "teh cloudz" or call it bogus and BS but it might.
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Respawn Entertainment gives more detail about the Cloud and Titanfall
- Thread starter ComputerMKII
- Start date
Thanks; I get all of that. I don't want them to say "I develop for so and so" however I think just by saying they know their stuff, work in the industry and know about it with some explanations would go a long way for people like me. It won't probably help people who say "teh cloudz" or call it bogus and BS but it might.
PistolGrip
sex vacation in Guam
Sounds to me like you can benefit if there is map randomization otherwise its just called precanned lighting which would be dumb to do remotely. Even with map randomization though you could still do a better job for static light sources without calling an unreliable remote service by making objects viewpoint static as well.
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
I made no statement to Calen's knowledge. But ElTorro has no stake in the game, so to speak.
I appreciate Calen posting though.
Didn't see Calen in here.
No idea if you can answer this or at least shed some light on this.
Will it be possible to have regional dedicated servers for Titanfall, in the same vain like BF3, where a company can pay a license or something in that regards and allow to host dedicated servers in a region without an Azure data center?
Having checked it up the closest data center in my region (south africa) is hosted in the EU (There is a CDN in my region). I get about 140-190ms delay when accessing stuff stored on the data center (but not the CDN).
This of course has me worried for the latency in the game come release.
No idea if you can answer this or at least shed some light on this.
Will it be possible to have regional dedicated servers for Titanfall, in the same vain like BF3, where a company can pay a license or something in that regards and allow to host dedicated servers in a region without an Azure data center?
Having checked it up the closest data center in my region (south africa) is hosted in the EU (There is a CDN in my region). I get about 140-190ms delay when accessing stuff stored on the data center (but not the CDN).
This of course has me worried for the latency in the game come release.
schwabdizzle
Banned
Its apparently doing the same thing but its somehow more cost efficient.
lastflowers
Banned
it was sarcasm guys 
Beer Monkey
Member
Scalability. Rapid deployment. Rapid allocation of resources.
Spawn thousands of extremely powerful servers or tens of thousands of less beefy servers at the click of a mouse.
This is a dumb and very rigid way to do business:
yellow submarine
Member
If it's too good to be true, it's probably marketing BS.
There's a reason we don't have thin clients as our consoles yet (think OnLive etc.)
It's a case of "we could." I can't wait to see what other game teams do with it. The lighting example was one of the off the top of my head things I wanted to try at some point. Our tech is driven directly by our gameplay and art requirements, so until someone actually needs that as a feature for a game we wouldn't put any actual R&D into it; as someone else pointed out in this thread the compute farm really doesn't care what code you run on it.
One subtlety that people seem to be missing from Slothy's article is that even though we are using this as "just" scalable dedis, the fact that we know we have them (and require them) means that we can have more CPU intensive game features that would just never fit in the CPU and memory allocated to a "listen" server running on one player's box. This is what people mean when they talk about how we couldn't have made the game we want to make without this feature.
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
Cost efficiency entirely depends on the size of deployment. If you have enough demand, it's probably cheaper to run your own virtual server farm.
Oh, and i'm not just making this up, i've done a couple of papers on Cloud Computing, this was from an article in Information Systems titled "Cost effectiveness of commercial computing clouds."
StudioTan
Hold on, friend! I'd love to share with you some swell news about the Windows 8 Metro UI! Wait, where are you going?
Speaking strictly of using the cloud for dedicated server, the benefit is that virtual servers and be spun up anywhere and can be configured exactly for the task that is needed. With traditional dedicated servers you have a finite collection of servers in some datacenter that are set up specifically for hosting. If you have someone that lives very far from those datacenters you'll have a higher ping (latency) than someone who lives close to them. The other thing is even if no one is playing those servers are sitting there not being used.
With the cloud you can create servers as needed and you can create them as close to the players as needed so that everyone gets an optimal experience. If no one is playing then that computer power is being used for other tasks within the cloud.
So in many respects there is no difference, but in other respects there is a huge difference. This system is easier, more configurable, tightly integrated into the console and also cheaper.
I don't actually know what the regional distribution will be, or if that will be possible. I know we're going to do everything we can to make sure the game works as well as possible everywhere. That sounds like generic "rah rah" dev talk but we really do mean it.
I like having dedicated servers everywhere, and I think it actually goes some way to justifying the xbl gold fee, but I just wish MS would just cut the crap about the gameplay 'possibilities' that they keep alluding to. Any features will be minimal at best, like the Forza ai thing, which I refuse to believe isn't possible with the XB1's own processor.
Thanks for this. I really do hope there is eventually something along the lines of having regional hosted servers. Game looks great by the way!
I was thinking more along the lines of re-canning lights that started static but you decided later to move (environmental destruction, maybe.) It's certainly true that there wouldn't be a need to do this for lights that never changed.
SenjutsuSage
Banned
Well, it certainly can't be made any more clear than this. Definitely not free like I previously thought, but apparently very affordable. Sounds like a big win for devs and gamers either way.
its already working. I try not to post on other forums because they seem to be uneducated about these things and im glad that Gaf always digs and sees past PR bullshit. I was reading an article on IGN and the comments section turned into a huge flame war. One thing that i kept seeing pop up was people saying how much better Xbox one was going to be because of the cloud and that it is the reason that titanfall cant be made on the PS4. I even saw posts saying that in a few years ps4 wouldnt be able to keep up with the extra power of the cloud. the crazy part is that i saw it multiple times and i saw no rebuttals at all. People are already drinking the cool-aid.
That was both of our points
it was sarcasm guys
Okay, I'm an idiot.
I need to fix my sarcasm meter. This is Neogaf so it's really hard to tell when someone is serious or not, especially when I mostly stay on Off Topic side. Gaming side is such a strange beast.PistolGrip
sex vacation in Guam
Calen please be honest with us. Do you honestly think people are not being disingenuous about this stuff? I know you are being very clear and trying to point to future possible ways this can be used but I mean your company and MS has been implying things that are just not so and anyone who knows how these things work can see right through it. I mean that's why there is confusion in the first place. We have the "infinite powers of the cloud!!"
Also, day one for this game for me.
lastflowers
Banned
Okay, I'm an idiot.
It is more telling that the post is close in tone and content to other posts that are serious.
Jon's article goes into detail about listen servers vs. dedis and how this helps us since we don't have to support running all the server side stuff on the same box as rendering and the rest of the client features. I don't know what else to say; this is a genuine benefit.
For what it's worth, I'm not a PR flack; I am a programmer. Slothy (Jon Shiring, the guy who wrote the article in the OT) is our main network and server programmer. Neither of us has any reason whatsoever to just blow smoke your direction.
I guess things have already said enough, but...
"cloud" == "dedicated servers" is a bit simplistic. It would look true from an end-user's pointer view, though.
"cloud" == "scalable server farms"
Before the marketing term, "cloud", we had the term, "scalable server farms", but the marketing people didn't find it fancy enough.
I think Azure allows running various OSes (Windows, FreeBSD, Linux (?), etc.), so the devs can do whatever they want/can.
The scalability (fewer instances during weekday daytime, and more instances during weekend nights), flexibility, cost and manageability is what makes "cloud" different from previous dedicated servers. Except for availability, all these may not matter to the end users...
"cloud" == "dedicated servers" is a bit simplistic. It would look true from an end-user's pointer view, though.
"cloud" == "scalable server farms"
Before the marketing term, "cloud", we had the term, "scalable server farms", but the marketing people didn't find it fancy enough.
I think Azure allows running various OSes (Windows, FreeBSD, Linux (?), etc.), so the devs can do whatever they want/can.
The scalability (fewer instances during weekday daytime, and more instances during weekend nights), flexibility, cost and manageability is what makes "cloud" different from previous dedicated servers. Except for availability, all these may not matter to the end users...
I will let him answer this obviously, but I think some are also doing a lot of forward thinking, to put it mildly, when it comes to the tech. I would listen to Calen much more than a PR or marketing guy. Their are possibilities with the tech, and that is exciting.
PistolGrip
sex vacation in Guam
No no sorry, you two guys are great. It was more rhetoric. I was just saying to be honest about where the confusion comes from. More like "agree with us!" that this is being used to confuse future consumers.
You probably shouldn't Respawned has nothing to gain there
Please do not get yourself into trouble!That sounds like some of the posts I've seen round here.
NullPointer
Member
I've always taken it as:
"farm" = physical
"cloud" = virtual
Ultimately its all physical, but if you can present developers with processing power abstracted from any hardware dependencies that's very cloud-ish
I've always taken it as:
"farm" = physical
"cloud" = virtual
Ultimately its all physical, but if you can present developers with processing power abstracted from any hardware dependencies that's very cloud-ish
Well, "hypervisor farms" are still server farms.
But yes, you can't separate the marketing term "cloud" from "virtualization".Speaking of hypervisor, the most interesting technical item for XO for me was that it is running one (no, I don't want to hijack the thread).
Monumental
Banned
Quite a few eople trying their best to make fun of the cloud and downplay any and all benefits while more informed people try to explain again and again and again the numerous different types of benefits that it brings to the table.
Availability for all devs
Cost benefits
Scalability in size
Flexibility in management
Compute Power for various function (including lighting in changing environments)
But each time some smartass chimes in with "So nothing new" "Same thing as 15 years ago" "This is PR Bullshit" "Lol M$ power of cloud".
Availability for all devs
Cost benefits
Scalability in size
Flexibility in management
Compute Power for various function (including lighting in changing environments)
But each time some smartass chimes in with "So nothing new" "Same thing as 15 years ago" "This is PR Bullshit" "Lol M$ power of cloud".
Could you point where we (we being Respawn) have said anything different? I myself did probably 60 interviews during the course of E3, and a lot of it ended up being about DA CLOWDS. I honestly couldn't tell you a single thing I said, as it was such a brain-melting whirlwind three days - but if there's something being reported that is misleading or inaccurate I'd want to set the record straight.
The real deal is that Jon Shiring posted an article describing how we're Microsofts cloud for Titanfall, and then a bunch of other people from other companies have said a bunch of other stuff. What Microsoft's cloud is actually capable of is much broader than what we're currently doing, so its not our place to talk about what anyone is doing or will theoretically be able to do in the future. There's also the gotcha that we're still a long ways off from finishing the game, and so there's a lot of stuff still "up in the air" that when we're asked we have to just not comment on, or be vague about. Just the nature of an unfinished game.
The reality, though, is that we wouldn't have attempted to make this game in the way we're doing without that infrastructure in place. When Jon wrote that the costs related to creating and maintaining dedicated server farms across the globe is "oh my god we can't afford that", he isn't joking. Could cost more than the actual development costs - especially considering our studio size.
We really want to be as transparent as possible with our fans and customers (well, as far as PR and marketing lets us
). If there's anyone feeling like we're misleading them, I'd love to know where the confusion is and talk about it. Thats the whole reason Jon wrote this article, there was a lot of internet speculation and confusion as to what we're doing - and we wanted to make it clear.We really want to be as transparent as possible with our fans and customers (well, as far as PR and marketing lets us
I guess, a source of confusion (aside from Microsofts "infinite power of the cloud") is that gamers see technology only from a "performance" point of view and dismiss the severe implications of operating costs, flexibility, and development/maintenance efficiency, which, in the end, is the thing that makes cloud-based resources great and worth mentioning.
Dedicated servers being "nothing new" is pretty much a useless statement that misses the point, that the economic implications of traditional server hosting have been making them impossible to realize in most cases.
Could you point where we (we being Respawn) have said anything different? I myself did probably 60 interviews during the course of E3, and a lot of it ended up being about DA CLOWDS. I honestly couldn't tell you a single thing I said, as it was such a brain-melting whirlwind three days - but if there's something being reported that is misleading or inaccurate I'd want to set the record straight.
The real deal is that Jon Shiring posted an article describing how we're Microsofts cloud for Titanfall, and then a bunch of other people from other companies have said a bunch of other stuff. What Microsoft's cloud is actually capable of is much broader than what we're currently doing, so its not our place to talk about what anyone is doing or will theoretically be able to do in the future. There's also the gotcha that we're still a long ways off from finishing the game, and so there's a lot of stuff still "up in the air" that when we're asked we have to just not comment on, or be vague about. Just the nature of an unfinished game.
The reality, though, is that we wouldn't have attempted to make this game in the way we're doing without that infrastructure in place. When Jon wrote that the costs related to creating and maintaining dedicated server farms across the globe is "oh my god we can't afford that", he isn't joking. Could cost more than the actual development costs - especially considering our studio size.
We really want to be as transparent as possible with our fans and customers (well, as far as PR and marketing lets us
I think the confusion comes from the level of talk here. People hear "dedicated servers" and think they know everything about it while ignoring the stuff that explains the benefits. + the buzzword "cloud" is worn out. I'm coming from ecommerce and everybody, except the managers and executives, hates this term.
Btw: congratulations for winning all that E3 awards. Well deserved.
Major Williams
Member
Using buzz words to appeal to greater audiences. Marketing 101. I like it and appreciate this article a TON.
More affordable than they can get anywhere else.
Yes, this is all great news for users and devs.
LittleJohnny
Banned
These posts are not allowed around here, ban this guy immediately and delete the text, quick!
StudioTan
Hold on, friend! I'd love to share with you some swell news about the Windows 8 Metro UI! Wait, where are you going?
Could you point where we (we being Respawn) have said anything different? I myself did probably 60 interviews during the course of E3, and a lot of it ended up being about DA CLOWDS. I honestly couldn't tell you a single thing I said, as it was such a brain-melting whirlwind three days - but if there's something being reported that is misleading or inaccurate I'd want to set the record straight.
The real deal is that Jon Shiring posted an article describing how we're Microsofts cloud for Titanfall, and then a bunch of other people from other companies have said a bunch of other stuff. What Microsoft's cloud is actually capable of is much broader than what we're currently doing, so its not our place to talk about what anyone is doing or will theoretically be able to do in the future. There's also the gotcha that we're still a long ways off from finishing the game, and so there's a lot of stuff still "up in the air" that when we're asked we have to just not comment on, or be vague about. Just the nature of an unfinished game.
The reality, though, is that we wouldn't have attempted to make this game in the way we're doing without that infrastructure in place. When Jon wrote that the costs related to creating and maintaining dedicated server farms across the globe is "oh my god we can't afford that", he isn't joking. Could cost more than the actual development costs - especially considering our studio size.
We really want to be as transparent as possible with our fans and customers (well, as far as PR and marketing lets us
I appreciate you guys taking the time to try to clear things up. I don't think it's that you guys aren't being clear or transparent, it's just some people don't want to believe you are ACTUALLY being clear and transparent.
Black_Stride
do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
Devs arent forced to use it, but the service is there for the cheap and im guessing most if not all devs will jump on it.
link1201
Member
Could you point where we (we being Respawn) have said anything different? I myself did probably 60 interviews during the course of E3, and a lot of it ended up being about DA CLOWDS. I honestly couldn't tell you a single thing I said, as it was such a brain-melting whirlwind three days - but if there's something being reported that is misleading or inaccurate I'd want to set the record straight.
The real deal is that Jon Shiring posted an article describing how we're Microsofts cloud for Titanfall, and then a bunch of other people from other companies have said a bunch of other stuff. What Microsoft's cloud is actually capable of is much broader than what we're currently doing, so its not our place to talk about what anyone is doing or will theoretically be able to do in the future. There's also the gotcha that we're still a long ways off from finishing the game, and so there's a lot of stuff still "up in the air" that when we're asked we have to just not comment on, or be vague about. Just the nature of an unfinished game.
The reality, though, is that we wouldn't have attempted to make this game in the way we're doing without that infrastructure in place. When Jon wrote that the costs related to creating and maintaining dedicated server farms across the globe is "oh my god we can't afford that", he isn't joking. Could cost more than the actual development costs - especially considering our studio size.
We really want to be as transparent as possible with our fans and customers (well, as far as PR and marketing lets us
Thank you for posting this. My respect for your company is growing on a daily basis .I am really grateful for you being as transparent as you are able. It is refreshing.
The section on bold is also very intriguing.
Could you point where we (we being Respawn) have said anything different? I myself did probably 60 interviews during the course of E3, and a lot of it ended up being about DA CLOWDS. I honestly couldn't tell you a single thing I said, as it was such a brain-melting whirlwind three days - but if there's something being reported that is misleading or inaccurate I'd want to set the record straight.
The real deal is that Jon Shiring posted an article describing how we're Microsofts cloud for Titanfall, and then a bunch of other people from other companies have said a bunch of other stuff. What Microsoft's cloud is actually capable of is much broader than what we're currently doing, so its not our place to talk about what anyone is doing or will theoretically be able to do in the future. There's also the gotcha that we're still a long ways off from finishing the game, and so there's a lot of stuff still "up in the air" that when we're asked we have to just not comment on, or be vague about. Just the nature of an unfinished game.
The reality, though, is that we wouldn't have attempted to make this game in the way we're doing without that infrastructure in place. When Jon wrote that the costs related to creating and maintaining dedicated server farms across the globe is "oh my god we can't afford that", he isn't joking. Could cost more than the actual development costs - especially considering our studio size.
We really want to be as transparent as possible with our fans and customers (well, as far as PR and marketing lets us
The confusion is mainly about the differences between Azure and other cloud services, apart from the integration with XBox SDK. For example, when Jon Shiring says "Most importantly to us, Microsoft priced it so that it’s far more affordable than other hosting options – their goal here is to get more awesome games, not to nickel-and-dime developers. ", does that mean any other 3rd party developer can have the same discounted price as Respawn?
I don't know if it's accurate to say Respawn got a discount. I mean, maybe they did, but all they've said is that the service itself is cheaper than other options and not that they were given a special price.
Well, that's something I would like to know and I believe a lot of people as well. Jon Shiring surely sounded like that's the case when he used the plural "developers" but everywhere else in the article he meant Respawn.
I think the plural implies it's not a special discount. A discount that everyone gets is just the price! I don't know if we can read so much into the comment that way though. Realistically neither Respawn nor anyone else is likely to share details specific to their agreement.
He was asking where the confusion is. I think the price (for 3rd party non-exclusive dev) is the biggest one. If he can't share specifics, at least confirm it's cheaper than other cloud services for every 3rd party. If he can't even do that, I hope people stop bring up price as one advantage.
Yes, lets face it. There is nothing special about Azure on Xbone as compared to any other platform, with the possible exception of cost.
Well...they said it was cheaper for them, and from the sound of it they're saying it was substantially cheaper. They don't say the low price was just for them anywhere, and even use developers in a plural sense. I can't see any possible upside to going on record explicitly claiming, as the customer, that the company you're buying something from will always provide the cheapest price to everyone. Even if they knew or suspected that is the case.
I'm actually hoping MS can do some development specifically for gaming on top of Azure platform and provide as a part of SDK.
Of course it's cheap for them, that's part of their exclusive deal. And that's irrelevant, really. I just wish they can make it clear.
That the cheap or cheaper price is due in part or in whole to the exclusivity deal is not an assumption supported by anything anyone from Respawn has said.
Brad Grenz
Member
You know what would be really affordable? If they used the $1 Billion a year they collect from Gold fees to pay for the multiplayer infrastructure they claim that money is for.
StudioTan
Hold on, friend! I'd love to share with you some swell news about the Windows 8 Metro UI! Wait, where are you going?
That's simply not true but keep believing what you want.