The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
And the audience is a reflection of the industry. Its not a one way street. No creative production is.
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Why does it seem like people have something against sex appeal?
- Thread starter Arc Christelle
- Start date
And the audience is a reflection of the industry. Its not a one way street. No creative production is.
It isn't sex appeal that bothers me. It is when the character is virtually just sex appeal that I start getting annoyed.
I feel like I am always bringing Judith into these discussions but she is the first that comes to mind for me. Haven't followed the topic all the way so I'm not sure if someone else brought her up for discussion before this.
I've made another post in the past that went into some details about her outfit and character in another topic but I'll summarise what I remember here.
Being sexy and being designed to be sexy is not a bad thing. But when sex appeal is the only good thing you have going for the character then that character needs more time in the oven. One problem with my opinion though is that some games don't offer a lot of options or ways to show a character underneath the sex appeal which can be appreciated at a glance. Take Kokoro for instance. While I don't find her to be the most attractive girl in Dead or Alive I do like the way she looks and the way she fights. But stuff like this, it really turns me off the character. I mean, I laughed at the scene but come on. I'm surprised Jann Lee isn't face palming in that scene.
I feel like I am always bringing Judith into these discussions but she is the first that comes to mind for me. Haven't followed the topic all the way so I'm not sure if someone else brought her up for discussion before this.
She is pretty much THE female sex symbol of Tales of Vesperia and sex appeal is one of her defining attributes. What makes her a superb character however is that sex appeal is only one of the many aspects of her character and it fits her personality nicely.
I've made another post in the past that went into some details about her outfit and character in another topic but I'll summarise what I remember here.
- Her outfit is outrageous but clearly intentionally so. It was designed to complement her character. Through out the game many conversations pop up regarding Judith, from her outfit to male characters hitting on her and females being envious.
- The outfit is somewhat inappropriate. Her defense is that "it is easier to move in."
- The fact that a lot of the characters call her out for the outfit is a very nice touch. She IS out of place and it would definitely be odd if everyone acts like this is normal when literally no one else in the game world dresses like that.
- A bit of context. She is essentially a Dragoon. When she rides her dragon she wears heavy full body armor. When she joins the party she is grounded and opts for something lighter and less hot/suffocating.
- When you visit Judith's home town you discover she had a bit of a falling out with the town. She began to rebel and left the town due to their differences. From dialogue in game it isn't hard to believe that a younger Judith may have began to dress inappropriately just to act out and be different before she left them behind.
- Options are always nice. You can unlock other costumes for her (and other characters later) if you really dislike her default one.
- She knows she is sexy and is sometimes pretty playful about it amongst friends. Teasing them and what not. She has a sprite where she leans forward for some cleavage view. Clearly fanservice but done in a playful and short manner.
- Outside of her sex appeal she has other characteristics that is more true to her self. The sex appeal thing is mostly first impression based on appearance and when she is playful. As you get to know her you will find she is adventurous, pretty smart and loves to fight enemies.
- Her defense on her outfit might have a touch of truth. Her combat style is mostly aerial moves. No other character can juggle enemies into the air, defying gravity like she can and she is a very strong fighter. That still doesn't justify the heels though.
- Most of the other characters are quite modestly dressed by default, they have other quirky stereotypes instead such as the naive princess, geeky mage etc. It is nice to have the sex appeal thing targeted at mostly one character, this way if you dislike it you can just not use her as much.
Being sexy and being designed to be sexy is not a bad thing. But when sex appeal is the only good thing you have going for the character then that character needs more time in the oven. One problem with my opinion though is that some games don't offer a lot of options or ways to show a character underneath the sex appeal which can be appreciated at a glance. Take Kokoro for instance. While I don't find her to be the most attractive girl in Dead or Alive I do like the way she looks and the way she fights. But stuff like this, it really turns me off the character. I mean, I laughed at the scene but come on. I'm surprised Jann Lee isn't face palming in that scene.
HolyBaikal
Banned
This is a subject I have a lot of mixed feelings about. And tend to become very involved in. It seems like I'm often either very feminist, and it draws the ire of people. Or I'm too pro anime and moe, and that draws the ire of other people.
I worry I may become too involved in this thread, too.
As for Millia, I love Tales of Xillia. But that was one of the things I disliked most about the game. There was no reason for her outfit to be the way it was. And it became harder to take her seriously. Yes, she doesn't care how she looks. And yes, it was chosen for her by her handmaid. But it was really just an excuse for her to look like that.
I think that the disparity in the portrayal of male and female characters in video games and in entertainment in general is extremely unfair. I think that we should also focus on the disparity and how unfair it is rather than resorting to calling things "creepy". It seems like people are often too against bad things and problems for the wrong reasons.
I worry I may become too involved in this thread, too.
As for Millia, I love Tales of Xillia. But that was one of the things I disliked most about the game. There was no reason for her outfit to be the way it was. And it became harder to take her seriously. Yes, she doesn't care how she looks. And yes, it was chosen for her by her handmaid. But it was really just an excuse for her to look like that.
I think that the disparity in the portrayal of male and female characters in video games and in entertainment in general is extremely unfair. I think that we should also focus on the disparity and how unfair it is rather than resorting to calling things "creepy". It seems like people are often too against bad things and problems for the wrong reasons.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I only really ever feel stuff gets creepy if I think the look they're going for is particularly underaged or else I feel like they're trying to use sex appeal with an otherwise seemingly emotionally innocent or naive character. This is where most of my distaste for fanservice in "moe" comes from. I mean, if an acknowledged part of these characters is how innocent they are and how much "you want to protect them" then also showing them off with sexual framings almost comes off as, well, predatory. Or at the very least dishonest.
HolyBaikal
Banned
I'm definitely not for the sexualization of innocence. Or the promotion of unfair power dynamics in relationships.
I do think that the sexualization of innocence is rather creepy. In that is promotes a power dynamic where the subject, or the viewer in the situation, sees themselves in a situation of power and maturity and control over the 'object' in the subject-object dichotomy.
This doesn't just hurt anime and video games, but, for instance, the Japanese pop music industry. There is a tendency for groups like Hello!Project and AKB48 to focus on teenage girls. And a lot of them get less focus and promotion once they get older. And, if one of them is 'found' to be in a relationship, there becomes a big scandal, followed by, often, a lot of outrage, and slut shaming by 'wota'.
That really bothers me. Worse yet, when that happens, and you try to "defend" them that "it's completely normal for a woman to have a relationship, it doesn't mean you have to stop liking her as an entertainer or a person." people, including in the English speaking world, will saying you're "white knighting" her, and that she deserves it, and that "she knew what she was getting into when she signed her contract with her idol agency". Even though many of these women signed these contracts when they were only 12 years old or so.
The idol industry would be a lot healthier if it weren't for these 'scandals'. I think it's fine to be a fan of idol Jpop, but I don't like people supporting this aspect of the industry.
It isn't just Jpop, the Seiyuu 'idol' industry suffers from this as well, as does the 'idol' industry in general. When it became public that Aya Hirano had slept with several of her bandmates, she suddenly became treated as 'tainted', and large amounts of slut shaming ensued. Rather than just respecting her as a healthy adult woman with a healthy sex life.
I do think that the sexualization of innocence is rather creepy. In that is promotes a power dynamic where the subject, or the viewer in the situation, sees themselves in a situation of power and maturity and control over the 'object' in the subject-object dichotomy.
This doesn't just hurt anime and video games, but, for instance, the Japanese pop music industry. There is a tendency for groups like Hello!Project and AKB48 to focus on teenage girls. And a lot of them get less focus and promotion once they get older. And, if one of them is 'found' to be in a relationship, there becomes a big scandal, followed by, often, a lot of outrage, and slut shaming by 'wota'.
That really bothers me. Worse yet, when that happens, and you try to "defend" them that "it's completely normal for a woman to have a relationship, it doesn't mean you have to stop liking her as an entertainer or a person." people, including in the English speaking world, will saying you're "white knighting" her, and that she deserves it, and that "she knew what she was getting into when she signed her contract with her idol agency". Even though many of these women signed these contracts when they were only 12 years old or so.
The idol industry would be a lot healthier if it weren't for these 'scandals'. I think it's fine to be a fan of idol Jpop, but I don't like people supporting this aspect of the industry.
It isn't just Jpop, the Seiyuu 'idol' industry suffers from this as well, as does the 'idol' industry in general. When it became public that Aya Hirano had slept with several of her bandmates, she suddenly became treated as 'tainted', and large amounts of slut shaming ensued. Rather than just respecting her as a healthy adult woman with a healthy sex life.
So the real nature of this thread is that it's gamers complaining about the ludonarrative dissonance of inappropriate or unrealistic sexualization.
Sexualization is ok - but only if it makes sense within the context of the game world and the character that is been sexualized.
I suppose in that vein... if there's a really compelling narrative reason (as Kojima claims there to be) for Silent to be as under dressed as she is... that's ok right?
Sexualization is ok - but only if it makes sense within the context of the game world and the character that is been sexualized.
I suppose in that vein... if there's a really compelling narrative reason (as Kojima claims there to be) for Silent to be as under dressed as she is... that's ok right?
thewhitehawk
Member
I said the design of the costume is not respectful, I didn't say the character didn't deserve respect. Imagine if Captain Kirk wore shorts and a tshirt throughout Star Trek. It wouldn't make him worse of a character, but it wouldn't be as suitable as his uniform. That is what I implied.
She's one of the better characters of Tales of Xillia in my opinion. that's why, to me, her revealing and unpractical clothes stick out like a sore thumb.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
This is a very well developed set of theories in film theory by the way. I recommend looking into stuff on the idea of "gaze", its really fascinating
EDIT: which, to be fair if you're evoking subject-object dichotomy you might already know about
That's strand one, yes. The second strand is that even contextualized sexualization can be bad if its near homogenous in its focus or target audience. This is where the whole focus on "changing the industry" comes in so that its not as focused on delivering games that often include sex appeal for young straight guys
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
EDIT: DP
Mr_Antimatter
Member
Everytime this topic comes up it seems the people for the status quo seem to think the detractors want all girls to be bland, fully covered, unsexy figures.
I get the feeling they are so concerned with preserving the uber sexy fanservice that they accuse everyone of being a prude/puritan.
When really, what most are really arguing for is a form of sex appeal that isn't just 'big boobs and lots of skin' and female characters who aren't defined solely by their sex appeal.
As folks have shown, you can have very skin showy characters who are not just wank bait, and you can have very covered girls who still look very sexy and ooze sex appeal.
I think, honestly, it just comes down to a lack of talent in the art department, as they can't think of a way to make a woman look sexy without starting to strip her/increase her bust size.
I get the feeling they are so concerned with preserving the uber sexy fanservice that they accuse everyone of being a prude/puritan.
When really, what most are really arguing for is a form of sex appeal that isn't just 'big boobs and lots of skin' and female characters who aren't defined solely by their sex appeal.
As folks have shown, you can have very skin showy characters who are not just wank bait, and you can have very covered girls who still look very sexy and ooze sex appeal.
I think, honestly, it just comes down to a lack of talent in the art department, as they can't think of a way to make a woman look sexy without starting to strip her/increase her bust size.
All I know is if I had listened to people who were against Dragon's Crown for its depiction of women I would have missed out on one of the most entertaining games this past gen. Sure the Amazon and Sorceress are quite heavily sexed up but when you're having fun kicking ass you don't even notice the characters.
Some games are not worth defending and I agree only use sex appeal for the sake of it but DC is one title that I'll stick behind. The art style, character design all of it just feel appropriate and I'm not saying that as some deviant.
Some games are not worth defending and I agree only use sex appeal for the sake of it but DC is one title that I'll stick behind. The art style, character design all of it just feel appropriate and I'm not saying that as some deviant.
Lots of scholars have done that
BlazeHedgehog
Member
For me, it's because intentionally designing characters with lots of sex appeal feels like a trick. Like it's expected that because I'm a man, I will immediately be more interested in something if there's a lot of jiggling and lingering shots of their cleavage. Shit like Naked News or Hot For Words, very cynical web shows that assume the only way men will learn anything is if a sexy woman is telling them about it.
I know I'm better than that. Not only can T&A be degenerating to the women who participate in it, it's degenerating to me that you expect me to care just because of the skimpy outfits.
I have nothing against sex appeal itself, but you can be sexy without being cheap and easy.
I know I'm better than that. Not only can T&A be degenerating to the women who participate in it, it's degenerating to me that you expect me to care just because of the skimpy outfits.
I have nothing against sex appeal itself, but you can be sexy without being cheap and easy.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I feel like this is what so much of this thread has been trying to get across:
Albeit my language hasn't been quite as strong. But the whole point of the article is spot on: "it makes sense in universe" is not ever an excuse to not think about why it makes sense in that universe, since everything about it is a creative construction
I mean, I don't agree with the article entirely, I don't like how she says that sexual design deprives characters of agency as though other characters have some agency: they don't, they just have the illusion of agency. But in broad strokes I agree
There is nothing wrong with having sex appeal.
There is everything wrong with pandering and taking it so far that it actually creates a barrier between a possible consumer of your product. There is everything wrong with allowing it to become the focus of a character, having the "sexiness" define him or her instead of compliment him/her. "I'm dressed this way for no logical reason other than to titilate and I offer nothing outside of that of consequence".
There is everything wrong with pandering and taking it so far that it actually creates a barrier between a possible consumer of your product. There is everything wrong with allowing it to become the focus of a character, having the "sexiness" define him or her instead of compliment him/her. "I'm dressed this way for no logical reason other than to titilate and I offer nothing outside of that of consequence".
Just read that article. I can't disagree strongly enough with some of the conclusions the author draws. This in particular stood out for me:
So deliberately exaggerating elements of dress or appearance that the artist finds appealing makes them a bad person. Yeah.
And moving on:
That's about as much "non-consensual voyeurism" as ogling a statue would be. As the author just said, the characters in videogames are constructs, not actual human beings. The writer of this piece can't seriously be suggesting that audiences can't distinguish...
...clearly I spoke too soon.
There seems to be a rather insidious assumption at work here, to wit: The presence of sexualized characters in games and media somehow trains men to treat living, breathing women as objects by association. This is actually pretty insulting - it assumes that the average male lacks the intelligence to separate fantasy from reality. I also think it puts the cart before the horse. Specifically, I think most if not all guys who look at women that way would have done so regardless. Games didn't teach them that it was okay to blatantly ogle women without concern for their feelings. If games taught them anything, it was that you can stare at images on a screen to your heart's content, because images aren't real people.
I think the author makes some good points with regard to sexualized character design being grounded in the setting and the personality of the character - that helps create a sense of verisimilitude and encourages suspension of disbelief, which are good things. But apart from that, I think he/she's really off-base when it comes to both underlying assumptions and the conclusions that have been drawn from them.
HolyBaikal
Banned
I do think that there are some people against sex for all the wrong reasons.
I only think that sexuality in entertainment is bad when it sends bad messages or is part of double standards.
I think that violence is a different issue, but is often too unexplored or cared about.
Violence is an issue plaguing video games. And is also filled gender double standards. And is also often used to promote sadistic and exploitative feelings. A lot of violence in video games makes me very uncomfortable.
I honestly prefer heartwarming video games. But I certainly know I'm not the only one making an issue out of the double standards of sexualization in video games. And that many people are having problems with sex in video games for strange reasons, and have no problems with any level of violence.
In my opinion, we should have both of these conversations.
Brianimaniac
Banned
I'm curious if people feel the same way about comic relief characters.
yes, if the character in question involves harmful stereotypes (i.e. barrett in FFVII is "funny" because he's black, or a character who's laughed at because they're mentally challenged)
I don't think the problem is having characters in skimpy clothes in games (or any other medium for that matter). The problem is the imbalance between male and female characters in skimpy clothes. A woman in skimpy clothes is not sexist or anti-feminist. A large number of female characters wearing skimpy clothes while most male characters wear thick full body armour with their heads only just barely (if at all) sticking out at the top? That is sexist. So all we need is a Nathan Drake nude patch and all will be fine 
. I'm serious, though. I think the only thing that makes this a problem is the imbalance and if games had just as many guys in skimpy outfits as they have girls nobody would complain.
. I'm serious, though. I think the only thing that makes this a problem is the imbalance and if games had just as many guys in skimpy outfits as they have girls nobody would complain.HolyBaikal
Banned
One game franchise that I've enjoyed, but really haven't enjoyed the gender representation of is the Darkstalkers franchise.
The female characters are almost all scantily clad, one of the only female characters who isn't is B.B. Hood. While pretty much all of the male characters are fully clothed and extremely muscular. And those that aren't, are given a more non-humanoid form.
Having pretty much all of the female characters sexualized, along with being given one body type, large breasts and hips and an unrealistically tiny waist, while the male characters are given full body covering clothing and athletic muscles makes me uncomfortable.
They had a chance to make a difference of design with Lilith. Lilith was exactly the same height as Morrigan, but without breasts. Instead a lot of her characterization seemed to be that of 'young immaturity' and 'wanting to have a body like Morrigan'. There was a plot reason for all of this, Lilith being a part of Morrigan. But Lilith could have been her own character. Lilith could have been a mature rival to Morrigan. But instead, all of the female characters without large breasts are treated as childlike or 'lacking' in some way.
Lilith still would have been a sexualized character. But it would have at least allowed body diversity. It would also be nice to have more muscular female fighters in fighting games, and less muscular male fighters.
I'm happy to see that the Darkstalkers franchise is returning. But their extremes and double standards of gender binary make me uncomfortable.
The female characters are almost all scantily clad, one of the only female characters who isn't is B.B. Hood. While pretty much all of the male characters are fully clothed and extremely muscular. And those that aren't, are given a more non-humanoid form.
Having pretty much all of the female characters sexualized, along with being given one body type, large breasts and hips and an unrealistically tiny waist, while the male characters are given full body covering clothing and athletic muscles makes me uncomfortable.
They had a chance to make a difference of design with Lilith. Lilith was exactly the same height as Morrigan, but without breasts. Instead a lot of her characterization seemed to be that of 'young immaturity' and 'wanting to have a body like Morrigan'. There was a plot reason for all of this, Lilith being a part of Morrigan. But Lilith could have been her own character. Lilith could have been a mature rival to Morrigan. But instead, all of the female characters without large breasts are treated as childlike or 'lacking' in some way.
Lilith still would have been a sexualized character. But it would have at least allowed body diversity. It would also be nice to have more muscular female fighters in fighting games, and less muscular male fighters.
I'm happy to see that the Darkstalkers franchise is returning. But their extremes and double standards of gender binary make me uncomfortable.
I don't think the problem is having characters in skimpy clothes in games (or any other medium for that matter). The problem is the imbalance between male and female characters in skimpy clothes. A woman in skimpy clothes is not sexist or anti-feminist. A large number of female characters wearing skimpy clothes while most male characters wear thick full body armour with their heads only just barely (if at all) sticking out at the top? That is sexist. So all we need is a Nathan Drake nude patch and all will be fine
I'm totally on board with the idea of equal-opportunity eye candy, but I think it's a mistake to automatically assume that men and women find the same visual qualities appealing in the opposite gender. Not that I have an issue with some muscular male adventurer type character running around in a jungle wearing nothing but a pair of tattered khaki shorts or whatever - if that's what appeals to a female audience. But saying, "Okay, we'll have the guys show skin too - done!" seems a little lazy. The best way to go about it would really be to get more women designers on board and tell them, "Hey, we want to sex up the male cast here, too. Give us some designs that push your buttons." That might mean bare chests and gleaming, oiled pecs. It might also mean stylish clothes or androgynous good looks that some males mock as "metrosexual" or whatever. The main thing is that it appeals to the target audience (women) on the intended level.
I also don't have a problem with the idea of games that cater primarily to male tastes in theme and aesthetics. I do think that there's a conspicuous lack of games that cater specifically to women, which is something I feel we ought to address.
Arc Christelle
Member
I don't think the problem is having characters in skimpy clothes in games (or any other medium for that matter). The problem is the imbalance between male and female characters in skimpy clothes. A woman in skimpy clothes is not sexist or anti-feminist. A large number of female characters wearing skimpy clothes while most male characters wear thick full body armour with their heads only just barely (if at all) sticking out at the top? That is sexist. So all we need is a Nathan Drake nude patch and all will be fine
What if I told you males in skimpy outfits doesn't automatically equal sexy? The character would have to sell a fantasy to complete the package. If you just got Nathan Drake in a thong, it's just Nathan Drake in a thong. You would have to enact some type of character of desire in their personality along with things that those attracted to males would find as valuable aspects.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
What the fuck? I love Dragon's Crown and have over 100 hours in it, but that doesn't make the game's character art immune to criticism. On the contrary, you can still enjoy a game while criticizing the blatant objectification (and again, I'm not just talking about the sorceress and amazon, but also their animations, the NPCs, the unlockable near-hentai artworks, etc.).
This post basically says "it's okay to criticize objectifying art in games, except in games I like". LMAO...
Let me ask you, then. Why are these things bad?
The character designs and artwork in Dragon's Crown are blatantly intended to appeal to a male audience. They emphasize and exaggerate visual elements that appeal to that audience.
Is an artist a bad person for deliberately creating works that appeal to males on that level?
Is the male audience wrong for finding these works appealing? Should they not like them, or feel ashamed for doing so?
I ask this because when I see a post like this, the impression I come away with is, those things are objectively bad, and if you like them, you're a bad person. That's something I take issue with. And you can't not be saying that while at the same time criticizing the game for art direction that specifically targets a male audience.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
That's stupid. Criticizing art isn't criticizing people who like it. It's okay to enjoy bad things. It's not my fault if you are defensive and take it personally. -_-
If I say Transformers is a terrible movie, am I insulting the people who liked the movie? Do you take it personally whenever anyone criticizes something you enjoy? This is so absurd and ridiculous.
If I say Transformers is a terrible movie, am I insulting the people who liked the movie? Do you take it personally whenever anyone criticizes something you enjoy? This is so absurd and ridiculous.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Do you do this in every thread?
Everytime I see that PEACE bullshit I die a little inside
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Okay I know its like, a long thread, but have you actually read any of it? Because I feel it would be like the fourth time I would be addressing these points, or rather, explaining what our problems are which are not what you've laid out here
Valkerionseven
Member
Oooooo. Was about to make this post exactly, high five!
Anyway like others said it really gets weird when those anime/moe tropes come in and promote sexy-ness... on a 13 year old character. It really is just awkward. And of course not everyone agrees with that in Japan either, at the same time, take a look at the idol groups again. They are meant to promote this pure, wholesome, innocent image... then soon as April comes around what do you see EVERYWHERE, these same girls in revealing bikini's, push up tops to make them have more cleavage and even worse the dreaded "M" pose to make sure we can all see dat camel toe.
I'm an AKB fan through and through as embarrassing as it is, but those rules are very hard to understand for a lot of foreign fans I think. I realize its all about money management for the companies, but its the crazy reactions from the "fans" that gets most people. Really promotes an unhealthy life outlook and obsessive behavior. Seriously not going to be surprised when we hear about stalker cases for these girls on the lower end of the group years from now.
Its a very odd paradigm they work with, and sadly since the big Idol boom in Japan its only gotten worse. Not only are there idol groups EVERYWHERE but they enforce these rules made by big companies to ensure more money from the obsessive fans, even though they are a small time act with like 20 people following them. Now it has bleed into their other media like games even more.
-----
Anyway.
I think sexyness without personality is a big problem for some games. Then again that is subjective I'd think.
Take Hilde from Soul Calibur. Completely covered.
Completely sexy character. Cool personality, and amazingly pretty (imo) totally my type, totally thought she was a sexy character before I could even see her whole body. Hell I would let people knock her helmet off just so I could see her face in SC4!
Ivy
Probably the epitome of the whole argument, still sexy obviously, but has gravitas for days behind all the cleavage.
just my opinion, personality makes the ladies more than the clothes.
Arc Christelle
Member
We need to list out some common arguments so I can post them on the OP.
- Demand for characters with more depth beyond Sex Appeal
- Alienation due to pandering.
It's about as ridiculous as people casually throwing around terms like "misogynistic art" (a sexy pinup poster embodies hatred of women?), which come up all too often in discussions like these. (To your credit, you didn't refer to Dragon's Crown that way. The term did crop up in that article I was commenting on earlier, though.)
And yes, if you criticize something for supposedly being demeaning to women, rather than just being poorly executed (see: Transformers
), it can be taken as an insult by the people who like that thing - it implies they tacitly embrace or endorse the debasement of women themselves.The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
It's about as ridiculous as people casually throwing around terms like "misogynistic art" (a sexy pinup poster embodies hatred of women?), which come up all too often in discussions like these. (To your credit, you didn't refer to Dragon's Crown that way. The term did crop up in that article I was commenting on earlier, though.)
And yes, if you criticize something for supposedly being demeaning to women, rather than just being poorly executed (see: Transformers
Well sorry, but that goes both ways. If someone does say they feel something is "demeaning to women" maybe the response of people shouldn't be "blargh how dare they suggest there is anything wrong with what I like!" and maybe it should be "hm, I like this thing but it bothers other people, is there something wrong with this?"
Arc Christelle
Member
I think the creators said that's what they wanted for Darkstalkers. Dark and Sensual. Can't remember the source tough.
The thing with that brings up the question of working to understand each other vs. picking a side. You don't necessarily have to have the same views to understand where the opposition is coming from.
And if you have pondered the question, and came to the conclusion, "No, I don't think anything's wrong with this, and I don't think there's anything wrong with the people who like it, either"? What then?
...Everything is art. But it can also be an industry, subject to marketing research that stunts creativity and closes off progressive and new directions. Since I'm a bit of an art historian...I kind of want to say...
Maybe games are hitting the 1800s of the western art period.
Back then it was only suitable to paint naked women and label them as mythical nymphs and allegorical figures to make them look more tasteful/classical. Even though they were often meant to be historical/mythical women, they were always shown in a vulnerable light, young, nude...often being raped or captured by gods and villians. Titian's Danea, Jan Gossaert's Danea, Danea, Danea, Venus, Venus, Venus. We look at these paintings as classics (and they are for sure!) but they were collected and placed in secret rooms where the collectors would sneak their mistresses off to and do you know what. It was still essentially porn dressed up as a dignified, highly prestigious thing. It's not a naked lady...it's a goddess with golden showers raining down on her and impregnating her!
All this changed when Manet came around and made everyone look pretty silly. Check out Manet's Luncheon on the Grass showing a naked lady in a contemporary setting sitting with fully dressed men. People absolutely hated Manet's guts. They hated him for depicting things in a realistic contemporary setting and making the whole nude lady thing look ridiculous. Then look at Manet's Olympia! Showcasing a nude prostitute in a contemporary setting looking dead at the viewers eye. Her gaze is not submissive or desperate. Manet showed that she wasn't vulnerable...but in control. Refusing the viewer access to her body without pay first. It was very raw and controversial at that time to depict something like that. It was bombarded during the Salons it was shown on. Given "reviews" you would find in the Youtube comment section now.
Truth be told, Manet was a total troll of his time. Making everyone feel like a butt for exposing how ridiculous we are for pandering to one thing only = Naked chicks getting raped and kidnapped.
After Manet came and went you saw more and more artists break away from the norm or "the industry" to actually pursue new forms of art. New subject matters and new painting practices were born from nothing after centuries of nothing but orange-tinged naked chicks (For better or for worst...)
What's happening right now...isn't art. It's an industry, with a market and target audience. It's not art, it's design. (That's what I do!) It is meant to communicate and make you feel certain ways...whether you realize it or not. Any true artistic freedom you may find in creativity will probably best be found in indie games. And those games are destined not to sell as well because they aren't fine tuned to meet everyone's "consumer" needs.
You might be right about that. I can only speak from the perspective of a gay man. Although I am pretty sure that there are plenty of women who enjoy looking at hot, naked guys, too. All the gay porn fan fiction writers come to mind, most of whom are female.
Well, I am attracted to males and honestly? Nathan Drake in a thong is something I totally wouldn't mind to see
. So long as it makes sense inside the narrative context, of course. I'm not so desperate to see a video game character naked that I would be willing to take chances with the overall quality of the game for it .Arc Christelle
Member
Well, I am attracted to males and honestly? Nathan Drake in a thong is something I totally wouldn't mind to see
Define game quality outside of narrative. =D
Well, when it comes to the Uncharted franchise the story is a huge part of the game. Without the story (yes, and the exotic locales and amazing graphics) it would just be a boring, mindless shooter. So in this case, having the main character run around in nothing but a thong without a good explanation (like someone broke into his apartment while he was in the shower or sth) and thus destroying the believability of the story and just generally the immersion would have an impact on the overall game quality. They could, of course, simply put it in there as an optional skin like the ones they had in Uncharted 2.
Arc Christelle
Member
Interesting view. Just wanted to see how some players may view game quality when narrative's out of the question. It's off topic, but something interesting to see every now and then.
I need to challenge people to detach themselves from gaming narrative's more often.
Imagine if the more hits Drake took the more articles of clothing he lost, just for the sake of that it's a game. Kinda like Ghosts and Goblins.
PlayingKarrde
Member
In a lot of ways game developers see sex appeal as putting a character in a skimpy outfit and to be honest 99 times out of 100 it's just to appeal to the lowest common denominator. In my opinion it's at the same level as using toilet humor instead of more intellectual comedy.
So I don't think it's a case of people getting offended (although sure, some are) but I think the backlash towards it is more just that it's not helping our case of "games can be more than this". As long as game characters are always portrayed in overtly sexual ways they will never be taken seriously and always seen as for pubescent teens and lonely man-children.
So I don't think it's a case of people getting offended (although sure, some are) but I think the backlash towards it is more just that it's not helping our case of "games can be more than this". As long as game characters are always portrayed in overtly sexual ways they will never be taken seriously and always seen as for pubescent teens and lonely man-children.
They had something along those lines in the Tomb Raider reboot where Lara's clothes would get more and more torn and tattered as the story progressed. But it was done more for realism's sake/as part of their agenda to make the player feel the character's struggle than for the sex appeal and it didn't feel contrived or cheap. I could definitely see them do something like this in Uncharted, too. But yeah, that wouldn't really have anything to do with sex appeal.
I don't recall anyone suggesting otherwise. We're not the art police.