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[aeolist]

I disagree that "normal" was at the forefront of Chell's design philosophy. I believe she has a very utilitarian, blank slate look about her. If we're talking "normal" I'd say maybe Ellen Page from Beyond: Two Souls...



...though I haven't played the game so I don't know how far that "normal" representation extends.

beyond feels like an excuse to dress jodie up in lots of revealing outfits most of the time, including multiple scenes in her underwear, several gratuitous showers, and at least 2 attempted rape scenes

 

[The Technomancer]

But many people seem to confuse that with objectification and exploitation which I find problematic, yes those exists, and there are those that are very bad, which I don't even bare in mind due to the fact that it's so shallow that it shouldn't be acknowledge, but why is it brought up so damn much through out the entire discussion?Maybe because it's easy to think of and people want to feel smart, mature, or above something, despite the fact that they are discussing a shallow subject. I ask that are people capable of enjoying sexual content for what it is.

This is why I feel that perhaps we take video games too seriously. People come looking to be immersed and shit, forgetting that its just a game. There are plenty of life lessons you can learn from some games, but I'm pretty sure how to treat the opposite gender or interact with them isn't one. These video games aren't our parents. they are not our spouses, they are not people. They're simply forms of entertainment of various depths and direction. They are hardly the same, and they all function in their own way, and despite influences from life and society, at the end of the day, it's fiction man.

Perhaps learning about endurance, and simple things that make you wonder are nice. But you can only go so far with it. You have other influences and experiences that are not solely tied down to Super Big Titty Ninja All-Stars.

You can watch porn but it doesn't define your view on women, for some people they just want something to jerk off to. Then out in public they're out being manner-able and respectful.

But at the end of the day, if you want change, no matter what race, religion, gender, etc. You make something. You work to create. Just like everyone else has done. You can complain about it, but you can't expect a perfect change to your tastes by being an armchair developer, life will never work that way. That's why we're free to debate. Just like people can say they don't have a problem with it, there will be people who say they either don't, are apathetic, or just enjoy it.

Not to everyone sex nor sex appeal is a form of oppression.

They're a part of our culture and as such they do have an effect on how we think and how we talk about things. I'm going to quote the amazing Film Crit Hulk here from his article on Modern Warfare:

THEY'VE MADE BILLIONS. YOU READ THAT RIGHT, BILLIONS OF DOLLARS. AND THEY MAKE THAT MONEY AT A SPEED WHICH CAN PUT MOVIES TO SHAME. WHILE THE MONEY FACTOR PUTS THEM IN A NEW LEAGUE OF CORPORATE INFLUENCE (BUT THAT'S MORE OF A VIDEO GAMES 102 / ECONOMICS DISCUSSION) THE ACCOMPANYING POPULARITY IS WHAT REALLY BEGS FOR ARTISTIC RESPONSIBILITY. SPECIFICALLY FOR THE OUT-OF-CONTROL MESSAGES THAT VIDEO GAMES EXHIBIT. BECAUSE, AS CLICHE AS IT SOUNDS, THESE MESSAGES HAVE A HUGE AND DIRECT EFFECT ON THE YOUNG CULTURE THAT IS ENAMORED OF THEM.

PEOPLE CONSTANTLY MISUNDERSTAND WHEN HULK SAYS "OH NOES! THIS WILL AFFECT YOUNG GAMERS!" PLEASE KNOW THAT HULK IN NO WAY MEANS GAMES ARE "RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR BEHAVIOR." THAT IS LUDICROUS AND YET SOMETHING HULK GETS ACCUSED OF EVERY TIME HULK PLAYS THE 'AFFECTING YOUNG MINDS" CARD. AGAIN, THERE IS A CAPACITY TO WHICH HULK ADMIT THAT THIS DEFENSE IS UNDERSTANDABLE AFTER YEARS OF POLITICIANS WAVING THEIR FINGERS AT NONSENSE AND TRYING TO BAN GAMES, BUT HULK NOT ADVOCATING CENSORSHIP IN THE SLIGHTEST. HULK NOT PART OF THE P.C. POLICE. WHAT HULK ADVOCATING IS A SENSE CULTURAL UNDERSTANDING AND AWARENESS. THAT'S IT. BECAUSE IN ALL HONESTY, WHEN ANY SORT OF MEDIUM OR PROPERTY ACCEPTS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF HOW THEIR WORK COMES OFF ON A SEMIOTIC LEVEL, THERE'S A FUNNY WAY IN WHICH THAT SEEMS TO TAKE CARE OF THE BIG PROBLEMS INHERENTLY.

AND TAKING CARE OF THE BIG PROBLEMS MATTERS.

BECAUSE HULK DOESN'T KNOW ABOUT YOU, BUT HULK TALKS TO LOTS OF FOLKS ABOUT THESE THINGS THAT ARE "JUST VIDEO GAMES" AND HULK SEES HOW 10-14 YEAR OLDS, IN REAL LIFE, ACTUALLY REACT TO THEM. HULK COULD RECITE THE ENTIRE LIST OF THE MOST CRAZY THINGS HULK HEARD IN THE LAST FEW YEARS, BUT LET'S GO TO THE EXTREME EXAMPLE. IN THE MIDNIGHT LINE FOR MW3, HULK WAS MAKING CHIT- CHAT WITH A SHORT LATINO HIGH SCHOOLER WHO, ALL CASUALLY AND WITHOUT A HINT OF WORRY SAYS: “I can’t wait to kill some fuckin’ sand ni****s”

… YIKES.

IT'S THE KIND OF YIKES THAT SORT OF DUMBFOUNDING WHEN YOU ACTUALLY HEAR IT OUT LOUD AND THEN GIVES YOU A SICKENING FEELING IN YOUR GUT. AGAIN, SOMEONE'S REACTION TO THAT MAY BE "THAT'S AWFUL! THAT GAME NEEDS TO BE BANNED!" BUT AGAIN, THAT'S RIDICULOUS. GAMES DO NOT CREATE THIS KIND OF VIEWPOINT BECAUSE CLEARLY THERE OTHER ISSUES INTO WHY SOMEONE THINKS IT JUST "OKAY" TO SAY THAT TO A RANDOM STRANGER IN LINE. AND WHO KNOWS, THE KID MAY GROW UP TO BE WELL-ADJUSTED AND WHATEVER, BUT NONE OF THAT REALLY HULK'S POINT.

HULK'S POINT THAT THE MODERN WARFARE SERIES IS A PLACE THAT THIS PERSON CAN GO AND GET THEIR ARAB-KILLING ROCKS OFF WITH ABSOLUTELY NO KIND OF TONAL RESISTANCE AND IT'S ALL IN THE NAME OF FUN.

CALL THIS YOUNG PERSON RIDICULOUS. CALL THEM AN EXTREME. CALL THEM WHATEVER. THERE PROBABLY A CAPACITY TO WHICH THIS KIND OF PERSON COULD GET THEIR ROCKS OFF IN THE MORE TONE-RESPONSIBLE FIRST GAME, BUT CLEARLY THIS PERSON IS LOOKING TO THIS NEW GAME TO REFLECT AND RELISH IN THEIR TOTALLY-FUCKED DISPOSITION.

THIS IS WHAT SEMIOTICS ARE ALL ABOUT.

THE ASSOCIATIONS AND THEMATIC REASONS PEOPLE MAY PLAY VIDEO GAMES ARE VERY, VERY REAL. AND WHETHER OR NOT THIS KIND OF REACTION IS INTENTIONAL ON THE PART OF THE AUTHORS, IT SHOULD AT LEAST BE SIGNAL THAT THE IDEAS BEING PUT FORTH IN GAMES ARE NOT EXACTLY WORKING RIGHT.

AND FUCK, IF THE PURPOSE BEHIND THE GAME DESIGNERS WAS TO KILL ARABS THEN COME OUT AND FUCKING SAY IT SO WE CAN HAVE AN ACTUAL CONVERSATION ABOUT THE IDEA. TO DRESS UP THIS PRETENSE BEHIND THE MANTRA OF "IT'S UNINTENTIONAL!", "WE CAN'T CONTROL HOW PEOPLE REACT!", OR "IT'S JUST A GAME!" NONSENSE IS UTTERLY RIDICULOUS. NO MATTER WHAT THERE IS A VERY REAL CONVERSATION TO BE HAD.

BUT THIS SEMIOTICS CONVERSATION ISN'T JUST ABOUT THE BIG, HORRIBLE STUFF THAT'S IN YOUR FACE. IT'S ABOUT THE SUBTEXT STUFF COMES ACROSS JUST IN STEALTH WAYS. WHY JUST A FEW DAYS LATER AS HULK WAS WAITING IN LINE FOR SKYRIM (GOOD GRAVY THAT'S A GOOD GAME) HULK OVERHEARD A FEW OTHER GUYS IN LINE: "Modern Warfare 3 is so fucking gay. I dunno the campaigns just fucking stupid. And the online's no good either. I'm all about Battlefield 3 now, man so fuck that game, it's fucking gay." HOMOPHOBIC AND INARTICULATE TO A T? YUP! BUT THE REACTION SHOWS THAT THE VERY EMOTIONAL EMPTINESS HULK SPEAKS OF WITH MW3 WHICH PRESUMABLY AFFECTED THE GAMER ON A SUBCONSCIOUS LEVEL (CHECK OUT THIS LINK TO METACRITIC SCORES WHICH HIGHLIGHTS THE STUNNING DIVIDE BETWEEN CRITICAL RAVES AND USER'S HATE, AND PRETTY MUCH EVERYTHING HULK TALKED ABOUT CONCERNING THE GAMES INDUSTRY).

WHATEVER THESE ANECDOTES ARE SUPPOSED TO REPRESENT ABOUT THE GAMING COMMUNITY, THEY ARE FIRST AND FOREMOST, REAL. AND WHETHER YOU AGREE OR NOT, HULK BELIEVE THEY SPEAK TO THE VERY KIND OF RESPONSIBILITY OVER SEMIOTIC CONTROL THAT COMES ALONG WITH ANY FORM OF NARRATIVE.

At the end of the day what I and many others are pushing for is just to try and get more developers to understand why we have a problem with some things so that hopefully some of them will also agree that these problems exist and consider just how they go about handling sex appeal in games. I care about it in the broad sense because I do think that tacky, homogenous sex appeal helps stifle the ability of gaming to be diverse and welcoming and I care about it in the personal sense because I want to see more games created without these jarring bits of sexuality that feel completely out of context. I'm totally cool with Dead or Alive Beach Volleyball, by the way. That game's context and tone are set completely by the opening cutscene. It knows what it wants to be all parts contribute to that whole.

 

[Village]

Then do it. Make your own shit. I don't care whether or not if you have the time for it or not. If you really want change, that's what you do. Or just be an armchair developer. I'm not discouraging discussion but regardless what you say, this is reality.

People are, and they will.

Second of all, I'm questioning that people have a hard time just accepting fiction for what it is and perhaps over analyze certain things, while there are exceptions that can prove their case, not every piece of work up for questioning completely fix their narrative.

Nothing is ever a set concept, and things can be changed for the benefit of others. Its like if someone just told I dunno all those people marching on Washington " that's just the way life is" that is head in the sand cowardly attitude to be quite honest.

Don't be gettin' defensive. I don't care about patriarchal oppression, sexism, or sexist views or whatever, and for those that do, that's fine, feel free to talk about it in the thread, all though after telling you how I feel about it already you should know better than to discuss gender politics with someone that may feel apathetic about it for whatever reason.

Not getting defensive, I'm getting real. Art in this context is NEVER being taken too seriously.

I simply ask why do people find a hard time enjoying sex appeal. Do you really need a ton of suggestive works of the opposite sex just to say, "Oh this looks nice."?

I do not think I quite understand what you are trying to get across.

However i will say we need a cultural restructuring, and it seemost most a lot of mediums aren't catherine.

But many people seem to confuse that with objectification and exploitation which I find problematic, yes those exists, and there are those that are very bad, which I don't even bare in mind due to the fact that it's so shallow that it shouldn't be acknowledge, but why is it brought up so damn much through out the entire discussion?Maybe because it's easy to think of and people want to feel smart, mature, or above something, despite the fact that they are discussing a shallow subject. I ask that are people capable of enjoying sexual content for what it is.

Maybe because a lot of it is exploitation, and while I think your a cool dude. People like you apologize for and just keep proprigating those messed up things as " oh don't take it seriously its just a book/game/movie/peice of media that has been proven to have effects on people and to deny that is to show complete ignorance.

This is why I feel that perhaps we take video games too seriously. People come looking to be immersed and shit, forgetting that its just a game. There are plenty of life lessons you can learn from some games, but I'm pretty sure how to treat the opposite gender or interact with them isn't one. These video games aren't our parents. they are not our spouses, they are not people. They're simply forms of entertainment of various depths and direction. They are hardly the same, and they all function in their own way, and despite influences from life and society, at the end of the day, it's fiction man.

That is a horrible excuse for anything. "Art isn't a person It can't be used to reinforce shitty parts of our culture" That... man that is just strait up dumbass-etry

How you gonna argue that games are exploring sexuality, then say people should not take them seriously or absorb shit from them because they aren't people. You don't even know what you are apologizing for, you arguing with yourself.

Perhaps learning about endurance, and simple things that make you wonder are nice. But you can only go so far with it. You have other influences and experiences that are not solely tied down to Super Big Titty Ninja All-Stars.

What are you even saying.

You can watch porn but it doesn't define your view on women, for some people they just want something to jerk off to. Then out in public they're out being manner-able and respectful.

Porn is a completely different matter with its own set of issues, and its never really an apt comparison in these types of situations.

But at the end of the day, if you want change, no matter what race, religion, gender, etc. You make something. You work to create. Just like everyone else has done. You can complain about it, but you can't expect a perfect change to your tastes by being an armchair developer, life will never work that way. That's why we're free to debate. Just like people can say they don't have a problem with it, there will be people who say they either don't, are apathetic, or just enjoy it.

Criticism of culture has lead to great things.

Its why I get to drink from the same water fountain, and why Obama is president. Why do you assume people are just yelling at their computers and doing nothing else, ignorant and silly. and a childish way to try and dismiss an argument.Just saying, you have no idea what person is doing in their lives.

Not to everyone sex nor sex appeal is a form of oppression.

It can and is being used as one.

 

[MHWilliams]

Then do it. Make your own shit. I don't care whether or not if you have the time for it or not. If you really want change, that's what you do. Or just be an armchair developer. I'm not discouraging discussion but regardless what you say, this is reality.

Second of all, I'm questioning that people have a hard time just accepting fiction for what it is and perhaps overanalyze certain things, while there are exceptions that can prove their case, not every piece of work up for questioning completely fix their narrative.

Don't be gettin' defensive. I don't care about patriarchal oppression, sexism, or sexist views or whatever, and for those that do, that's fine, feel free to talk about it in the thread, all though after telling you how I feel about it already you should know better than to discuss gender politics with someone that may feel apathetic about it for whatever reason.

I simply ask why do people find a hard time enjoying sex appeal. Do you really need a ton of suggestive works of the opposite sex just to say, "Oh this looks nice."?

I can enjoy sex appeal. I watch CW for God's sake.

I'm question people who may view suggestive imagery as perhaps something perverted or deviant. The art that actually does have more going on for it than "lol bewbs" the actual enjoyment of sexuality and sexual nature.

But many people seem to confuse that with objectification and exploitation which I find problematic, yes those exists, and there are those that are very bad, which I don't even bare in mind due to the fact that it's so shallow that it shouldn't be acknowledge, but why is it brought up so damn much through out the entire discussion?Maybe because it's easy to think of and people want to feel smart, mature, or above something, despite the fact that they are discussing a shallow subject. I ask that are people capable of enjoying sexual content for what it is.

This is why I feel that perhaps we take video games too seriously. People come looking to be immersed and shit, forgetting that its just a game. There are plenty of life lessons you can learn from some games, but I'm pretty sure how to treat the opposite gender or interact with them isn't one. These video games aren't our parents. they are not our spouses, they are not people. They're simply forms of entertainment of various depths and direction. They are hardly the same, and they all function in their own way, and despite influences from life and society, at the end of the day, it's fiction man.

Perhaps learning about endurance, and simple things that make you wonder are nice. But you can only go so far with it. You have other influences and experiences that are not solely tied down to Super Big Titty Ninja All-Stars.

You can watch porn but it doesn't define your view on women, for some people they just want something to jerk off to. Then out in public they're out being manner-able and respectful.

But at the end of the day, if you want change, no matter what race, religion, gender, etc. You make something. You work to create. Just like everyone else has done. You can complain about it, but you can't expect a perfect change to your tastes by being an armchair developer, life will never work that way. That's why we're free to debate. Just like people can say they don't have a problem with it, there will be people who say they either don't, are apathetic, or just enjoy it.

Not to everyone sex nor sex appeal is a form of oppression.

At the end of the day, creating isn't the only options. You can create, you can purchase, you can view, you can respond. Art is just a conversation in a different scale. If there artist doesn't want to talk back, that's no different than a developer refusing to talk to the community about the lack of a patch, or controversial DLC and microtransaction choices. You can create, you can ask for change, you can do all of these things.

Even if you "vote with your wallet" it is always imperative that you tell the developer and publisher why you're doing that in a civil manner.

If you don't take video games as a part of culture and view them as just games, rock out. Just like there's tons of people out there who buy a console and are fine without delving into the console wars, resolution, framerate, developer shenanigans, but we here on NeoGAF can spend whole threads arguing about these concepts. I choose to enjoy the game and look at the art being created.

These things matter. Stereotypes matter. Culture matters. Hell, you can lower a black university student's test scores just by reminding them that they are black or lower a white math student's scores by pointing out that those of Asian hertiage do better in math. Priming has noticble effects on people. Enough to change whole behaviors? No. But a nudge here and there.

Once again, people assume there's only binary options. I can do more than one thing. I'm not sitting here gnashing my teeth over perceived wrongs. I'm saying, hey that's not cool, hey this could be better, and then I'm going back to eating, or watching a movie, or playing PS4, or whatever. For example: As a black man, I'm quite capable of watching shows I may enjoy with mostly white casts, asking for more minority leads, and living a whole, fulfilling life.

 

[JustinMay]

There's sex appeal and then there's heinous Dragon's Crown/Dead or Alive/Killer is Dead style shit. That's the thing people have a problem with.

 

[Opinionatedfish]

In all honesty I don't really like taking a mocking tone, but in these kind of debates the voice of "everything is subjective so we shouldn't really be trying, things just are what they are" just is...frustrating

Perfect. Yes.


Perfect.

Spoiler

Although it's more fun to mock art that we may personally consider to be bad. Too much debate on nominally "crass" art tends to legitimize it or give it a lasting controversy.

 

[PaulloDEC]

Character happens to be sexy = fine.

Main point of the character is to be sexy = not fine.

Like most people, I enjoy games having attractive characters in them. What I don't like is when a character only seems to exist for the sake of being "sexy" or shoves that feature so far to the forefront that I can't see anything behind it. In an internet drowning in porn, I don't need that crap in my games.

And as others have said, what the video game industry thinks is sexy often seems to clash with my own feelings on the matter. For example, this:

...is so aggressively stupid to me that I'd actively avoid the game it originates from. To me, that design is the developer telling me what a libido-driven idiot I am.

 

[CommandThrower]

Personally, I'm all for sexy designs. Designs that show an ample amount of skin, whether the character be male or female, are designs that I endorse.

Now, I won't go out of my way to call some of these sexily designed characters great characters, but I'm of the opinion that the human body is(or at least can be) beautiful. If you have something nice to show off, then by all means, show it off.


I can totally understand why some folks would have a problem with designs like the ones I posted above, and that's fine. I however, don't mind at all.

 

[hateradio]

We're not talking characterization here, only sexualization. and pretending that sexualization and half naked characters in video games is some kind of recent thing is just hilariously wrong.

edit: bonus-

This guy here sure is manly

..until he turns around. Hel-looooooooooooooooo asscheeks!

You learn something every day.

And as others have said, what the video game industry thinks is sexy often seems to clash with my own feelings on the matter. For example, this:

...is so aggressively stupid to me that I'd actively avoid the game it originates from. To me, that design is the developer telling me what a libido-driven idiot I am.

And she doesn't speak, so she's the perfect female character!

 

[thewhitehawk]

I don't have a problem with sexy but I do have an issue with most female characters being extreme versions of a certain archetypal character.

 

[thewhitehawk]

Actually, she doesn't really wear much.

Not that Final Fantasy games tend to follow logic very often, but Tifa's job in Final Fantasy VII was a bar patron and a martial artist. Her attire, though revealing, fits her character just as Aeris' long dress suits her just the same. They're both sexy, without being sexist, in my opinion, because they suit the characters by being part of their characterization and making sense according to their occupations and personalities.

If you want a good example of a character with a sexist design, there are many examples of that to go around. For example, one of the main characters from Tales of Xillia claims to be the reincarnation of a spirit lord and is a sword fighter.

What kind of outfit should the reincarnation of a "god" that fights with swords use?

In my opinion this isn't a respectable design and it doesn't suit her character.

 

[Izayoi]

Well, you'd think that, being God and all, she could wear whatever she wanted to, right?

Spoiler

I have not played the game.

 

[The Technomancer]

Well, you'd think that, being God and all, she could wear whatever she wanted to, right?

Spoiler

I have not played the game.

Yes, but she's a fictional character. If she's dressed like that its because her creators want her to look like that.

 

[Shogun1337]

For the longest it has always been in our in entertainment in one form or another. But recently and by recently I'd say the past decade, it's like suddenly people find it offensive. Despite if a game may have multiple characters which have various themes and characteristics, it always seems like people will always have it out for a character with sex appeal regardless of the character.

If they show skin, or might seem "too sexy" suddenly some people get sensitive to these things as if the concept of surrealism flies over their head.

Putting cries of pandering and fetishism aside, How do feel about sex appeal in character design?

Me personally, I love it. I'm a fan sexy. I don't think it defines a character, but I see it as one of many that can make a character appealing, and sometimes sadly, overrated.

Also, I feel that there is a such thing as well executed sex appeal (which doesn't mean covered up or small breasts) and there is also very bad attempts at achieving it (nude means attractive regardless of design/ armor g-string/ etc),

What are some examples you might have that are good/bad ways of approaching it?

Also note that I'm speaking of all types of styles and design, realistic/athrop/chibi/SD/"anime" etc.

And let's try to avoid any Over the Top or unnecessary images and fan art.

Just America. It all stems around insecurity.

 

[Kinyou]

Yes, but she's a fictional character. If she's dressed like that its because her creators want her to look like that.

At the same time should a creator pick an outfit that fits the character

 

[The Technomancer]

At the same time should a creator pick an outfit that fits the character

Hm? Is this a question? I think the creator should (and always does even if sometimes their not consciously aware of it) pick the outfit for a reason, whether that's "fitting the character" or something else. And I think that we currently have a problem with that "something else" often being decontextualized sex appeal and general issues depicting women

 

[SOLDIER]

I'm super early in Xillia but I had assumed she comes from some sort of tribal background and that they don't have modern attire that would fit her stature.

She kind of towers over everyone, even the adult males. She's almost Wonder Woman esque.

The only semi offender is her ridiculously tiny waist. Her bust is modest but not massive, but they still added jiggle physics as is practically customary in every JRPG game.

Even Aqua had them in Kingdom Hearts and it was a fricking Disney game.

 

[Arc Christelle]

Give me a sec for a response, just finished some matches and came back to some lengthy ass reading. (lol @ the Hulk shit, Techromancer).

 

[Kinyou]

Hm? Is this a question? I think the creator should (and always does even if sometimes their not consciously aware of it) pick the outfit for a reason, whether that's "fitting the character" or something else. And I think that we currently have a problem with that "something else" often being decontextualized sex appeal and general issues depicting women

Well people often act like the only reason some character is dressed in a revealing outfit is because the developer has some depraved mind or wants to attract male teenagers. But (sometimes) it actually makes sense considering the characters personality. I have not played the game with this "god girl" but maybe the outfit actually fits to her personality?

 

[Metrotab]

I feel uncomfortable with applying systematic criticism (skewed representation of women in videogames) towards individual pieces of art. I can't properly put into words why though. I find artistic freedom to be paramount, and it seems the current trend of focusing on how certain games "are doing character design wrong, and how dare they" feels irreconcilable with that. This was especially prevalent with Dragon's Crown.

 

[The Technomancer]

Well people often act like the only reason some character is dressed in a revealing outfit is because the developer has some depraved mind or wants to attract male teenagers. But (sometimes) it actually makes sense considering the characters personality. I have not played the game with this "god girl" but maybe the outfit actually fits to her personality?

That can be fine, but its a fine line to walk. Because, again, the personality is also a construction of the creators.

 

[The Technomancer]

I feel uncomfortable with applying systematic criticism (skewed representation of women in videogames) towards individual pieces of art. I can't properly put into words why though. I find artistic freedom to be paramount, and it seems the current trend of focusing on how certain games "are doing character design wrong, and how dare they" feels irreconcilable with that. This was especially prevalent with Dragon's Crown.

Well its really two different things, although I care about them both:
-On a broad level I think the trends are harmful to both the industry and the medium and maybe even the culture. This is the whole proportions argument, too much of the industry is dedicated towards pleasing a certain demographic often in very similar ways. This is where I would criticize Dragon's Crown as being emblematic of a pattern

-On a game by game level I very very rarely have a problem with the content of any one game per se, so much as I'm critical of how various aspects of it fit into the context of the entire game. This is where I'm more likely to criticize when its exclusively the female cast that is dressed skimpily or when one or two particular things are jarring or clearly pandering. Its not at all just sex appeal that I care about here, by the way, that's just what I talk about in threads on sex appeal. Again, to use the Dead or Alive Beach Volleyball example I don't have a problem with that game in and of itself

 

[John Kowalski]

Well what kind of context is there? The context for a female design doesn't have to be black and white. As stated before, there's nothing stopping it from being an art preference or having it viewed by both genders. I also don't believe artists have a responsibility for who views there art. Either their job is to design things as according to the art director, or if they are the art director, they come up with what they think is ideal or represents their vision (at least when it comes to video games). In general, it's the same thing. Art has no barriers. It's how you want to express yourself.

I'm not sure what you mean by "The context for a female design doesn't have to be black and white", sorry. I don't mean to say that there is only one context, but that a context exists, and as i'm sure everyone can agree, the current context of female representations in videogames is that they are, bar the rare exception, offensively unilateral and archaic.

And, well, i agree with you that the artist isn't necessarily responsible for every possible reaction to his work, but i think you can agree that they're also the ones who are in the best position to change the status quo, right? I mean, should we instead make the audience to bear the weight of being literate in all forms of art that they consume, so much so that they can consume the artist's work and decide how to be influenced by it? Because that's the only other option, right? I personally don't see it working in any other way. If the one responsible for their output is someone higher in their hierarchy, then that's who needs to be empowered. I can see what you're saying with the second half, and i really don't have any argument against it, and that's the kind of stuff that these conversations (especially on gaf, who is apparently convinced that developers ought to never make games that they simply want to develop out of personal pleasure) aren't going to solve (that's my personal opinion anyhow).

As to "Art has no barriers. It's how you want to express yourself.", i don't think you can ever be that simple, because it never really is. Art inevitably grows to and from the audience (even more so in videogames, where kids go into school and then into the industry because they played games as kids), even if there is a culture among the art world that openly gentrifies itself. But that's a discussion in and of itself (though i'll say that that kind of stuff makes me sick to my stomach, fuck those dudes). Also, the "how" part of your post doesn't really work that way, it's more "what" they want to express. How they express it is a measure of how good they are at expressing themselves, not of what they express.

I think it's because when you say "bad artist" you are narrowing down art to certain extremes when art never started out that way. Unless your goal in life is to make Picasso art, you are not a bad artist if you attempt something wholly different. I could argue bad art could later becomes "good" art. Cartoons for example, are a huge descent from looking like real people. They do a bad job of capturing them, but isn't that point? It actually becomes a skill to know what parts of the human body to exaggerate. Different exaggeration leads to different form which leads to different art (i.e, caricatures, anime, kids drawings, comic books etc).

Look at how many people still put Mario above other games. Am I suppose to say they're wrong or that the other games have bad art?

Dude. Mario games have excellent art! It's a bit stagnant, but it's tried and true. And Mario is held as highly as it is because they really are the best at what they aim to do. The people behind the Mario games are geniuses, the kind that takes centuries to gather.

And when i say bad art, i don't mean that the art is, huh, how can i explain this. Like, when i say bad, i mean that the artist isn't skilled at his work. I mean, it's very naive to believe that there is no such thing as formal rules in art. That's just not how it works. I mean, talking about myself a little. I'm an amateur photographer. I know what makes a photo work and what doesn't (like, i know how to make it so that my photos convey exactly what i want them to convey

Spoiler

even if i'm really terrible and still have decades of practice to get there

). As a photographer (and i HOPE we can agree that photography is art), i know how to make my subjects read. I know how i can arrange the elements in a photo so that they reinforce the subject. I know how to include two or more subjects, and how to make each of them stand out more than the rest. I know how to use architectural elements to create an interesting relationship between a subject and his surroundings. Those things are skills, right? Painters also have to have these skills. Musicians as well. Sometimes they become so good at them that they can actually subvert them, but that's a measure of skill that very few individuals can achieve. But that's beside the point. You see what i'm getting at? I'm saying that bad art is art that isn't skilled, whereas good art is skilled art. Every artist can benefit form being very skilled, and every artist (even if they are trying to escape old paradigms) aims to be skilled, if only at their own version of skilled. Well, except for those horrible human beings that fake skill. Because, fuck them. Picasso was very skilled, but Monet was also very skilled, even if they were shooting for different ends (i believe that is partly because they were born in different times).

Also there isn't any objectivity in language. There is no such thing as objectivity, period. Only accepted rules that have been beaten into people while they were growing up and these rules become more disseminated and vaguer as you move away from letters, numbers, basic shapes, and colors. Art is "about communication" in so much it is about people using senses to feel things. Messages, however, are created by the viewer in a completely subjective manner (the only manner anything can occur).

This simply isn't how things actually work, and is offensively dismissive of everyone's artistic output.

 

[Deified Data]

In my opinion this isn't a respectable design and it doesn't suit her character.

I'll grant the latter point is up to debate, but what about her isn't deserving of respect? Are women who dress that way not worthy of respect?

 

[The Technomancer]

I'll grant the latter point is up to debate, but what about her isn't deserving of respect? Are women who dress that way not worthy of respect?

But they're not a person making a choice, they're a designed character. I can sympathize with someone who feels that if the outfit doesn't match the rest of the character then its not respectful to the idea of that character

 

[Deified Data]

But they're not a person making a choice, they're a designed character. I can sympathize with someone who feels that if the outfit doesn't match the rest of the character then its not respectful to the idea of that character

But if she's a fictional character wearing a fictional outfit, does it not make sense that she chose to wear that outfit in the context of the fiction? Is there a hard and fast rule stating powerful, mature women aren't allowed to show skin?

Honestly I haven't played Xillia. Is there something about this character that naturally contradicts the choice of wardrobe her designer's chose?

 

[Arc Christelle]

But they're not a person making a choice, they're a designed character. I can sympathize with someone who feels that if the outfit doesn't match the rest of the character then its not respectful to the idea of that character

I'm still working on my response but how is this different from what I was saying earlier? lol

 

[The Technomancer]

But if she's a fictional character wearing a fictional outfit, does it not make sense that she chose to wear that outfit in the context of the fiction? Is there a hard and fast rule stating powerful, mature women aren't allowed to show skin?

Honestly I haven't played Xillia. Is there something about this character that naturally contradicts the choice of wardrobe her designer's chose?

Does it? I haven't played Xillia either, but the original poster seemed to indicate that he found her appearance to be a disconnect from the rest of her character. Honestly when he says that it doesn't match the whole "god of swords" thing the first issues I think of are the boots and the thigh-strap. Now it could be that the mismatch in tone is a deliberate artistic step on the developers part, again, haven't played the game (yet, its on the very long list). Unfortunately in the current state of the medium I don't tend to give that benefit of the doubt.

There is no such hard fast rule, of course. The recurring theme I've been hitting in this thread is simply: we cannot evaluate art without acknowledging that it is both artificial and designed. That we shouldn't just be concerned with "does it make sense?" but also "why was it designed?"

I'm still working on my response but how is this different from what I was saying earlier? lol

hm, I think the best I can respond right now is just to say look at my above post distinguishing between the two different levels of discussion going on here: between the social critique of the industry and the artistic critique of a given work.

 

[Deified Data]

Does it? I haven't played Xillia either, but the original poster seemed to indicate that he found her appearance to be a disconnect from the rest of her character. Honestly when he says that it doesn't match the whole "god of swords" thing the first issues I think of are the boots and the thigh-strap. Now it could be that the mismatch in tone is a deliberate artistic step on the developers part, again, haven't played the game (yet, its on the very long list). Unfortunately in the current state of the medium I don't tend to give that benefit of the doubt.

There is no such hard fast rule, of course. The recurring theme I've been hitting in this thread is simply: we cannot evaluate art without acknowledging that it is both artificial and designed. That we shouldn't just be concerned with "does it make sense?" but also "why was it designed?"

I guess I'd have to hear whitehawk's explanation before I'm able to address it fully.

The main point I was trying to drive home, and I could very well be mistaken about whitehawk's intention, is that saying a scantily-clad character isn't worthy of respect (based on nothing but her outfit) is just as counterproductive as insisting female characters are meant to be objects of sexual longing.

Personally speaking, I don't think there's anything about a revealing, feminine outfit that directly contradicts the "god of swords" concept, but as I said I'm unfamiliar with the character. I think it's the player's own bias that expects a heavily-armored, brutish warrior when they hear "god of swords". As a character designer, I think defying player expectations can be a useful tool.

 

[Zaptruder]

This is a fairly fascinating discussion.

Kinda makes me wish someone out there was doing some videogame anthropology and was willing to sift through the raw data of sexuality in video games.

How many female video game characters are considered overly and inappropriately sexualized, and how much people play those videogames as a result.

 

[The Technomancer]

I guess I'd have to hear whitehawk's explanation before I'm able to address it fully.

The main point I was trying to drive home, and I could very well be mistaken about whitehawk's intention, is that saying a scantily-clad character isn't worthy of respect (based on nothing but her outfit) is just as counterproductive as insisting female characters are meant to be objects of sexual longing.

Personally speaking, I don't think there's anything about a revealing, feminine outfit that directly contradicts the "god of swords" concept, but as I said I'm unfamiliar with the character. I think it's the player's own bias that expects a heavily-armored, brutish warrior when they hear "god of swords". As a character designer, I think defying player expectations can be a useful tool.

I do as well, but I honestly don't feel games are at the point where I can just give the benefit of the doubt if that might be going on. I don't think most devs who use out of tone designs like that are doing so subversively (hell, if most of them are doing it then it really can't be subversive, it becomes the new expectation, which is exactly what we've seen).

 

[JordanN]

I'm not sure what you mean by "The context for a female design doesn't have to be black and white", sorry. I don't mean to say that there is only one context, but that a context exists, and as i'm sure everyone can agree, the current context of female representations in videogames is that they are, bar the rare exception, offensively unilateral and archaic.

I wasn't sure if context was referring to something outside of the artist intent.

And, well, i agree with you that the artist isn't necessarily responsible for every possible reaction to his work, but i think you can agree that they're also the ones who are in the best position to change the status quo, right?

This is something I'll have to think more about but I'll say yes for now.

 

[Arc Christelle]

They're a part of our culture and as such they do have an effect on how we think and how we talk about things. I'm going to quote the amazing Film Crit Hulk here from his article on Modern Warfare:


At the end of the day what I and many others are pushing for is just to try and get more developers to understand why we have a problem with some things so that hopefully some of them will also agree that these problems exist and consider just how they go about handling sex appeal in games. I care about it in the broad sense because I do think that tacky, homogenous sex appeal helps stifle the ability of gaming to be diverse and welcoming and I care about it in the personal sense because I want to see more games created without these jarring bits of sexuality that feel completely out of context. I'm totally cool with Dead or Alive Beach Volleyball, by the way. That game's context and tone are set completely by the opening cutscene. It knows what it wants to be all parts contribute to that whole.

I feel like "Hulk" fails to understand aggressive competitive, culture but I understand what he's trying to say. That he's not trying to get rid of it, but trying to shed light on some things that might evoke problematic feelings from players. As a person who understands shit talking, I understand what the kids were doing, doesn't make it right, but I understand.

People are, and they will.


Nothing is ever a set concept, and things can be changed for the benefit of others. Its like if someone just told I dunno all those people marching on Washington " that's just the way life is" that is head in the sand cowardly attitude to be quite honest.



Not getting defensive, I'm getting real. Art in this context is NEVER being taken too seriously.

I do not think I quite understand what you are trying to get across.

However i will say we need a cultural restructuring, and it seemost most a lot of mediums aren't catherine.

Maybe because a lot of it is exploitation, and while I think your a cool dude. People like you apologize for and just keep proprigating those messed up things as " oh don't take it seriously its just a book/game/movie/peice of media that has been proven to have effects on people and to deny that is to show complete ignorance.


That is a horrible excuse for anything. "Art isn't a person It can't be used to reinforce shitty parts of our culture" That... man that is just strait up dumbass-etry

How you gonna argue that games are exploring sexuality, then say people should not take them seriously or absorb shit from them because they aren't people. You don't even know what you are apologizing for, you arguing with yourself.



What are you even saying.

Porn is a completely different matter with its own set of issues, and its never really an apt comparison in these types of situations.


Criticism of culture has lead to great things.

Its why I get to drink from the same water fountain, and why Obama is president. Why do you assume people are just yelling at their computers and doing nothing else, ignorant and silly. and a childish way to try and dismiss an argument.Just saying, you have no idea what person is doing in their lives.


It can and is being used as one.

First and foremost Village, if you don't stop chopping up my responses like this I'm gonna choke you.

Spoiler

Not really man, I love you.

But time to touch on some of this, because I like to ask questions.

By cultural restructuring, tell me about some things you might feel need to change or find ideal.

And what messed up things we apologize for? People have a choice man, these games ain't mandatory to live, and there are options. Can be plenty more with new people trying to bring new entries. My point is, I'm not down on being hung up on games like that.

Street Fighter IV feels like some abomination that tries to put the feel of SFII in some weird 3D state with limited hit stuns/responses/states. And a Super bar that feels like a glorified EX meter. I hate it. I'm not even gonna get started on what they did with the narrative by resurrecting Gouken. I argue for better fighting games, but there are people who enjoy SFIV. I'm not gonna spend my life tripping about how limited SFIV is, I simply play other fighters that I do like. If that's not enough, I got Graphics Gale, FighterMk2nd, a scanner and some time. That's the point I'm making. I hear the complaints, and through the 90's to most of 2000 Hell yeah, there was a lot of unnecessary objectification. But those games are no longer popular or recognized. Hell we can barely get a sequel to Bayonetta. You even got some guy talking about how her design was one dimensional despite the fact that you spent the entire game fighting along side herself as a child. Character Development that's gleefully ignored because she dances and blows kisses. Like shit, I wish people actually played and got to appreciate Pandora's Tower, interesting romance adventure game, but fuck that shit man, "Food Fetish." Vanguard Princess is one of the greatest fighting games I've played. I even place it with 3S and Garou when it comes to 2D fighters. But people avoid it, "animu-moe-booby shit" It's a strawman, but it's responses I've gotten and read.

I wonder why it has to come to that, and why can't such things be ignored or even appreciated.

I mean hell at times I raise my eyebrow when the black guy is Dennis Rodman, some breakdancing fool, or the Duke of New York but at times I get it, even enjoy it. But I know, that if I want to introduce other types of Black characters, I just have to get started on it. Same shit in the movie industry, I'm no hood dude or a playa, or whatever the fuck. I wonder why there are many Black characters that can relate to me, but I know damn well, that I can change that if I just work on something. But at the same time, I'm not gonna dismiss already established representations, some people may like that, but I will say we can do better. Which is perhaps what you're going with in video games. To a degree, I agree. Hell for me, it's far past character designs though. I feel like we should have better games and different experiences.

You could introduce new female characters that offer plenty of solid experiences, but I'd be more heart broken to make such a respected female character on a game that's total ass.

Matter in fact, what kind of representation do you want for women in video games? Whatchu wanna see man? You got characters that aren't sexed up, you got characters that aren't a pair of DD's. Female protagonists aren't as popular as male protagonists (I by popular I meant the number featured in games) and there's a strong argument in there, but that's all up to developers man.

Dontnod Entertainment made Remember Me.

Grasshopper Manufacture made Lollipop Chainsaw.

Tomb Raider evolved from Boobs and two pistols featuring Lips to something Sensible.

I'm not worried about sexualization or objectification. There's a place for everything (If Marketed Well).

But Village, my question is.... can you enjoy a piece of illustrated sexiness, despite marketing, demongraphics, whatever. Fuck everybody else for now. Can you?

I can enjoy sex appeal. I watch CW for God's sake.



At the end of the day, creating isn't the only options. You can create, you can purchase, you can view, you can respond. Art is just a conversation in a different scale. If there artist doesn't want to talk back, that's no different than a developer refusing to talk to the community about the lack of a patch, or controversial DLC and microtransaction choices. You can create, you can ask for change, you can do all of these things.

Even if you "vote with your wallet" it is always imperative that you tell the developer and publisher why you're doing that in a civil manner.

If you don't take video games as a part of culture and view them as just games, rock out. Just like there's tons of people out there who buy a console and are fine without delving into the console wars, resolution, framerate, developer shenanigans, but we here on NeoGAF can spend whole threads arguing about these concepts. I choose to enjoy the game and look at the art being created.

These things matter. Stereotypes matter. Culture matters. Hell, you can lower a black university student's test scores just by reminding them that they are black or lower a white math student's scores by pointing out that those of Asian hertiage do better in math. Priming has noticble effects on people. Enough to change whole behaviors? No. But a nudge here and there.

Once again, people assume there's only binary options. I can do more than one thing. I'm not sitting here gnashing my teeth over perceived wrongs. I'm saying, hey that's not cool, hey this could be better, and then I'm going back to eating, or watching a movie, or playing PS4, or whatever. For example: As a black man, I'm quite capable of watching shows I may enjoy with mostly white casts, asking for more minority leads, and living a whole, fulfilling life.

The bolded was enough man. What you said at the bottom was right on the money though. I really want people to state their opinions and observations while perhaps be open to other ones, not wage war for change in this thread. It's kinda like someone else said earlier about both sides becoming extremely condescending and get caught up into a battle of "I'm right, you're wrong" (not you) but I'm pretty much asking people who resent sexy designs in general.

Most people are saying depending on how they are used and are referring to pandering designs, (which makes me ask, what are those designs outside from the obvious).

Because as an artist, I think of characters, sometimes I want to draw a universally, attractive character, which in my opinion is a challenge, but for some people, they might see it, and get turned off by it. Despite any other depictions of characters, but just the fact that character exist. Which makes me wonder why? There's other ways I can put it, or stress on the situation or even touch on ALL sides of the discussion, but I'll be here all day, and while I like GAF, sometimes spending a day here can feel like failure because I can be doing other things (but you can still discuss with each other, just speaking my view).

I question why people can't view sex in a less oppressive manner, some people come in like, "Dude America." and I'm from this country and I find myself in agreement. But you can't expect people to just conform to those views which is true. There are plenty of examples in the past of objectification which I can't deny, although I think things improved over time. No one's trying to buy Bullet Witch or X-Blades. lol

Sometimes I feel like some people take games too seriously like the person asking for defensive gear in fighting games. I don't wanna see that shit bogging down my favorite character. It's just a damn game. Hell RedSwirl pointed out Luka's Cleavage in Lost Planet and I was surprised, because I didn't even notice the shit because I didn't care.

Hell I'm not even trying to argue, "Well they sexualize men too." Because I only care about if you can enjoy a sexy man or not.

I'm a bit everywhere, but it's just because there's so many sides to arguments of "objectification" over sex appeal, that I just find it easier not to care than just lose my damn mind trying to cover them all.

I ain't got nothing against you man, and I appreciate your view.

-----------

 

[The Technomancer]

I really want people to state their opinions and observations while perhaps be open to other ones, not wage war for change in this thread.

I respect the vast majority of your post, I just wanted to pull out this comment because IMO the kind of discussion and the kinds of change that we're hoping to incite hardly seem, from my perspective, like a "war". Its just firmly worded criticism that doesn't necessarily include the standard "but of course everything is subjective" cover-my-ass disclaimer. People do seem to get really defensive about the thought that heaven forbid maybe in the future devs may not be as focused on pandering to them (see some of the posts in this thread), even though I don't think anyone is calling for the eradication of sexual pandering.

 

[Arc Christelle]

I respect the vast majority of your post, I just wanted to pull out this comment because IMO the kind of discussion and the kinds of change that we're hoping to incite hardly seem, from my perspective, like a "war". Its just firmly worded criticism that doesn't necessarily include the standard "but of course everything is subjective" cover-my-ass disclaimer. People do seem to get really defensive about the thought that heaven forbid maybe in the future devs may not be as focused on pandering to them (see some of the posts in this thread), even though I don't think anyone is calling for the eradication of sexual pandering.

Yeah, I kinda said that because at times it really feels like there's some sort of hostility when it comes to it, especially with some drive-by posts, claims of prudes, wank fodder and deviants. Some people look at some things and view it differently which can cause a clash.

I can study the image of a person and discuss why I might find it attractive while someone may come in with some crude ass statement about masturbation or perhaps even a statement about oppressive views vanity about society, while sitting here wondering why are their thought processes can't move past those ideas. However, the fact remains, that you can't force people to think a certain way and people have a reason for doing so. So you have to respect that and accept that your view are subjective, and even announce it so that people can understand that you're not trying to oppress their views. It's annoying I know. (Just like the "I own all three consoles" statement or posting two lol's on a statement you may feel sounded too harsh) but sometimes you really have to do that for people.

 

[Kadey]

Insecurity.

 

[Mik317]

Milia is once again a poor example.

She basically doesn't care how she looks (and her outfit was picked out by her kinda ...obsessive handler). But her outfit and such, is called out by the other characters and she explains it off as I am a god, I don't have time for modesty.

This is what I got from the bit I played of the game. But regardless, her design isn't super sexualized IMO, unless any skin = sexualized. This is a game where all kinds of sci fit and magic shit exists and we really going to go "well that's not proper swordfighting attire".? really?

You can't always place real life rules on fantasy environments especially ones as out there as Xillia's

This is where y disconnect comes from. What designs are acceptable? I'll bet it will be a bunch of fully clothed, fully armored designs. Someone said this earlier, the sexy designs arent the issue, it's the actual damn character. Bayonetta is pretty sexualized but because she owns it and is pretty badass in general, she ends up being an awesome character. I think too much focus is on the designs alone. And that's where the pushback from the "sides" are

 

[The Technomancer]

Milia is once again a poor example.

She basically doesn't care how she looks (and her outfit was picked out by her kinda ...obsessive handler). But her outfit and such, is called out by the other characters and she explains it off as I am a god, I don't have time for modesty.

This is what I got from the bit I played of the game. But regardless, her design isn't super sexualized IMO, unless any skin = sexualized. This is a game where all kinds of sci fit and magic shit exists and we really going to go "well that's not proper swordfighting attire".? really?

Its not a particularly sexualized design by most standards but if this is accurate it does feel kind of dumb. Maybe that's the point with Xillia. I mean, do other characters in Xillia have equally out-of-tone elements like bows and ridiculous boots and thigh-straps, such that that kind of weirdness becomes the tone?

This is where y disconnect comes from. What designs are acceptable? I'll bet it will be a bunch of fully clothed, fully armored designs. Someone said this earlier, the sexy designs arent the issue, it's the actual damn character. Bayonetta is pretty sexualized but because she owns it and is pretty badass in general, she ends up being an awesome character. I think too much focus is on the designs alone. And that's where the pushback from the "sides" are

Agreed here. But really, how many characters do that? I definitely wouldn't put, for example, Ivy from Soul Caliber on the same level as Bayonetta.

EDIT: Yeah, this is the main cast?

Her design kind of stands out to me, especially compared to the males

 

[Arc Christelle]

Agreed here. But really, how many characters do that? I definitely wouldn't put, for example, Ivy from Soul Caliber on the same level as Bayonetta.

I dunno, I haven't been a fan of SC like I used to but Ivy seemed pretty aware of her sex appeal back then, especially with some of her attacks. Although her character isn't exactly as well defined as Bayo (I kinda blame that on Fighting Games in General but I actually think it's her thing more or less).

 

[Mik317]

Its not a particularly sexualized design by most standards but if this is accurate it does feel kind of dumb. Maybe that's the point with Xillia. I mean, do other characters in Xillia have equally out-of-tone elements like bows and ridiculous boots and thigh-straps, such that that kind of weirdness becomes the tone?


Agreed here. But really, how many characters do that? I definitely wouldn't put, for example, Ivy from Soul Caliber on the same level as Bayonetta.

Not every one needs to.

It's only really out of place when it doesn't fit the world. Like I haven't even been keeping up with LR, but I do know that Lightning in sexy poses and costumes doesn't fit. That is dumb (albeit optional...but still) . It doesn't exactly fit in Soul Calibur's super serious world (although I think it has gone unnoticed that SC5 actually cut back on a lot of it outside of one throw in costume for Ivy as her standard outfit is rather conservative lol) but doesn't feel out of place in Tekken's more crazy world where Boxing Raptors, Ninjas, and cyborgs are a thing. DOA struggles with because it takes it's stupid as fuck story serious as hell and seemingly tried to take the attention away from the BOOBZ in DOA5, but I see some progress there too.

but in the end it's not the designs that are the issue IMO. Fighting games aren't the best places to point at storywise (although I actually think the genre is one of the more progressive in terms of Female representaton as it has females of all kinds). But I think it's only a problem when the design doesnt fit. Like the Quiet design, I am torn on. On one hand, it's Kojima and he does what he wants and the MGS series is silly enough to pull it off and yet I am sure they will want us to either take the design seriously or overlook it completely.

But other than that I can't think of many recent designs that actually have deserved their ire. The dragon's crown thing was laughable.

I dunno, I haven't been a fan of SC like I used to but Ivy seemed pretty aware of her sex appeal back then, especially with some of her attacks. Although her character isn't exactly as well defined as Bayo (I kinda blame that on Fighting Games in General but I actually think it's her thing more or less).

Yeah her design is probably meant to be that of an S&M dominatrix, as a lot of her moves show that....however her character is super serious and out for revenge or something. Which makes it weird.

 

[Steel]

I really want people to state their opinions and observations while perhaps be open to other ones, not wage war for change in this thread.

That's pretty much what's being done. Opinion's include what people feel need to be done, it doesn't necessarily mean there's any antagonism. Of course, it's the internet so the typed words can be given any tone the reader applies to them. There's no "war on sex appeal". Most people who are in the opposite camp of you are thinking more along the lines of "a character made purely for the sake of sex appeal and nothing else is shallow."

The people you see as opposition are simply stating that their opinion is that contextless sex appeal is too common, not that sex appeal is inherently wrong.

My 2 cents as someone who doesn't care much about the subject, anyway.

 

[SOLDIER]

Speaking of poor examples, I always felt Tifa was unfairly portrayed by people (and I'm not talking about the fan-artists). Taking the grossly exaggerated CG sequences out of the equation, her attire fits with the setting the game originally places you in (an urban lower-class portion of a multi-layered city where the rich classes lives far above everyone else) and the game almost never draws attention to her attributes (and even then they're so obscure you'd almost have to actively search for them, like recruiting Yuffie while Tifa is party leader). Her cleavage is completely covered, as mentioned before, and the only real absurd part of her outfit is that she's prone to doing high kicks despite wearing a mini-skirt (but you never get panty shots in the game. Dissidia, well...they happen super fast anyway).

The years upon years of dirty fan-art have done far more disservice than Square ever has. In fact, Advent Children went and gave her a complete new wardrobe that covers up nearly everything without taking away the character's sex appeal. It's probably the one and only time in the history of JRPGs where a female character actually wears more clothing in the sequel.

I always hated when Tifa and Lara Croft were uttered in the same sentence. The latter's sex appeal was always portrayed as the character's defining attribute, whereas with Tifa it was always secondary, if even that. It's why I always give kudos to whoever at Square decided to take a character they could have easily portrayed as cheesecake and instead developed her as one of the best-written heroines in any RPG. Also, they finally gave Lara the same justice with her series reboot, so somebody at Square Enix apparently knows how to treat a lady right.

Hopefully Toriyama will never get his filthy, filthy hands on her. Tifa Returns by Toriyama would be far more insulting than all the millions of rape doujins combined.

 

[Arc Christelle]

Not every one needs to.

It's only really out of place when it doesn't fit the world. Like I haven't even been keeping up with LR, but I do know that Lightning in sexy poses and costumes doesn't fit. That is dumb (albeit optional...but still) . It doesn't exactly fit in Soul Calibur's super serious world (although I think it has gone unnoticed that SC5 actually cut back on a lot of it outside of one throw in costume for Ivy as her standard outfit is rather conservative lol) but doesn't feel out of place in Tekken's more crazy world where Boxing Raptors, Ninjas, and cyborgs are a thing. DOA struggles with because it takes it's stupid as fuck story serious as hell and seemingly tried to take the attention away from the BOOBZ in DOA5, but I see some progress there too.

but in the end it's not the designs that are the issue IMO. Fighting games aren't the best places to point at storywise (although I actually think the genre is one of the more progressive in terms of Female representaton as it has females of all kinds). But I think it's only a problem when the design doesnt fit. Like the Quiet design, I am torn on. On one hand, it's Kojima and he does what he wants and the MGS series is silly enough to pull it off and yet I am sure they will want us to either take the design seriously or overlook it completely.

But other than that I can't think of many recent designs that actually have deserved their ire. The dragon's crown thing was laughable.



Yeah her design is probably meant to be that of an S&M dominatrix, as a lot of her moves show that....however her character is super serious and out for revenge or something. Which makes it weird.

Probably typical seductive killer in a sense, although that's just speculation. I've seen her enough to the point she's just there but that's another story, anyway, why u no liek DOA's storyline?

That's pretty much what's being done. Opinion's include what people feel need to be done, it doesn't necessarily mean there's any antagonism. Of course, it's the internet so the typed words can be given any tone the reader applies to them. There's no "war on sex appeal". Most people who are in the opposite camp of you are thinking more along the lines of "a character made purely for the sake of sex appeal and nothing else is shallow."

The people you see as opposition are simply stating that their opinion is that contextless sex appeal is too common, not that sex appeal is inherently wrong.

My 2 cents as someone who doesn't care much about the subject, anyway.

I gotchu. It's pretty simple and accepted criticism. I definitely understand how abusing sex appeal in the past has made people cynical and jaded towards characters that have it nowadays.

 

[Mik317]

Probably typical seductive killer in a sense, although that's just speculation. I've seen her enough to the point she's just there but that's another story, anyway, why u no liek DOA's storyline?



I gotchu. It's pretty simple and accepted criticism. I definitely understand how abusing sex appeal in the past has made people cynical and jaded towards characters that have it nowadays.

I love DOA's storyline....precisely because it's so serious and dumb.

 

[Arc Christelle]

I love DOA's storyline....precisely because it's so serious and dumb.

lmao I was about to say, I love the fact that it feels like a cheesy martial arts movie.

 

[Tellaerin]

I welcome characters with sex appeal in games, just like I find attractive women a welcome sight in real life. I see nothing wrong with a character whose sole purpose is to add sex appeal to a game, either - conceptually, it's no different than a piece of pin-up art, sexy statuette, or other creative work that's designed to appeal to an audience on that level. None of these things are inherently bad in my eyes. I can understand (and completely support) people who want female characters in games to be more than just eye candy, but I take serious issue with the ones who argue that eye candy itself is inherently a bad thing that must be eliminated for games to "advance".

Consciously or not, those objecting to sexualized depictions of women in games are casting a value judgement on those who find these aspects of femininity appealing. You can't say female characters who are improbably shapely and attractive - idealized depictions of women from a male perspective - and wear outfits that are tight, revealing, and/or show some skin are inherently bad without implying that anyone who finds these traits attractive is wrong for doing so. After all, if it was okay for men to like these characters, then it would be okay for artists to create them.

So what's the answer? Is it inherently wrong for men to find attributes like pretty faces, shapely figures and the like appealing in females, fictional or otherwise? Are they supposed to feel differently? Is it wrong for artists to create idealized or deliberately exaggerated depictions of things that appeal to them, even knowing full well that what they're creating is exaggerated for effect and not intended to reflect reality? Will limiting the depictions of females in games and media to ones with strictly "realistic" appearances, eschewing any sort of exaggerated attractiveness or sex appeal, make men find those traits any less appealing?

Should I be ashamed to find a pretty face more attractive than a plain one, or a curvaceous figure more appealing than one that's less so, fictional character or otherwise?

If so, why?

 

[Evil Monkey DTT]

I'm okay with sexy characters but I would like more variety in general. Plus I don't see why we can't just have normal lady characters. Let me put it this way, I don't like lightning from FF13 very much. But as a character she's a strong, nonsexy smart person. She's has no personality but she is a serious character. So when I see this

and hear that they gave her bigger breasts..... we have problems.

 

[zeldablue]

Not going to lie...

I was raised on a lot of mature or "misogynistic" games and I've always enjoyed them. One bad thing I know now is that I shouldn't have looked at a lot of the female characters in M rated games as my role models. =/

It's quite easy for a 7 year old girl to look at a big boob'd lady with no clothes/dignity and go. "Oh I get it. That's what I'm suppose to be. Aspirations acquired!" (Mortal Kombat's Jade and Tanya come to mind the most.)

Obviously, I realize those aren't great aspirations. But I think it would be great if girls had more content in general that didn't teach them to look and act like objects for the guys to mess with. Stand for whatever you believe, but seeing 13 year olds walk around in school pregnant with no future is and always was disappointing. I don't want to blame the media...but I'm blaming the media for teaching all girls and women to be whores and aspire to be absolutely nothing without a dude being there to save her, beat her up or impregnate her. :0

The Women vs Tropes thing kind of opened my eyes to how strange games and other early works from movies/comics/the media look from an objective standpoint. Boob armor for instance...seems fine to me. If you're foreign to these tropes (or sharply aware of them) then I guess they ARE offensive. Though aesthetically, I think it looks sweet. x_x

Either way, I still like playing as the "moderately-sized" boob chick in any game that gives me the option. (Unless Link is in it, Link's always the best choice) The only time I've been appalled by the sexualization of a character was while playing Bayonetta and Okami. Both by Kamiya. Lol. I understand the characters act that way because it's his trademark way of doing stuff, but I still cringe when I think about how or why these things happen.

Sexy girl characters are fine, my other girl gamer friend and I can talk all day about how awesome we think Lulu looks. Our opinion of Lulu wouldn't be as good if she had constant panty shots in each cutscene and was constantly kidnapped or unable to fight or defend herself. That's not sexy or interesting for a girl gamer. So there you go. Lulu = sex appeal without the sexual objectification.

 

[Woo-Fu]

Some people imagine a world where sex isn't used to sell products. Then they expect the videogame industry to usher in their perceived utopia.

Newsflash: When people stop buying games featuring oversexed individuals those games will in large part stop being made. Don't hold your breath. The industry is a reflection of its audience.

 

[Brianimaniac]

I enjoy a variety of sexualized fictional characters and still have a great respect for real women. The two need not be mutually exclusive.

And if someone thinks sexualized or objectified characters are a problem irrespective of personal taste, I wouldn't argue with them and tell them they're wrong, because I genuinely respect their opinion. On the flipside, though, I would also hope they could respect mine.