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PAX To Increase Inclusivity Effort With “Roll For Diversity – Hub And Lounge”

M

mollipen

Member
Inorigo said:
That a designated space is necessary at all indicates a major error in the general tone and atmosphere of PAX. They should be working to make it so you can comfortably meet people and have these discussions anywhere on the convention floor.

This feels like, "God, fine, give those weirdos a space to call their own. Anything to get then to shut up and leave us privelaged folk alone."
Click to expand...

I disagree. I want a place where people—people who aren't LGBT—know they can go if they want education on members of the gaming community they might know little about. And I want a space where LGBT gamers know, no matter what happens otherwise, they can go and have a comfortable space.

But really, I want that eduction space. Saying it should happen "anywhere" doesn't really mean much, I don't think, because where do you go? Outside of panels like the ones I'm a part of, where do you go if you want to know more about what it means to be transgender in the gaming community, and what you can do to help those who are? Do you just randomly walk up to somebody and start asking them questions? And what if somebody does organize an impromptu meeting, but you never hear about it?

I don't at all see this as "keep your weirdness to this area"—I see this as "you will know an absolute place to go if you either need a safe area, or if you want to learn more about people who are different than you".

I love education. Education makes our community a better place. This sounds like a great potential chance for educating more people, so I'm for it.
 
G

Grakl

Member
Animal said:
So that's great. Attendees are aware and informed. Tolerance is enforced. So I guess the issue I have is with their wording: "safe space".
Click to expand...

Plenty of places have safe spaces. University campuses have safe spaces. The term is correct and fine. Anybody can visit. The safe space in question for this convention seems different from a normal one anyway - it's more for education than anything else.
 
C

civilstrife

Member
Does a university lgbt "safe space" mean the rest of the university is officially lgbt hostile? No. Same applies here.

This is a good idea and a decent gesture after Mike's gross remarks.
 
M

mollipen

Member
Funchameleon said:
heads up if you use the word "cis" save yourself some time and stick to the "diversity lounge"
Click to expand...

I'm not a big fan of "cis"—because I don't like how it comes off—but I think this is a really terrible statement to make, and makes you look bad in the process. (But you might not care.)
 
F

Funchameleon

Banned
XtaLarge said:
don't mistake my weariness for addressing the exact same thing over and over to a bunch of broken record ass thread drifters up in here (including the implications in your post right here), for not having a valid response.

just read the fucking thread man. and if you still want to think that that's what this is then I'm entitled to ignore your posts moving forward
Click to expand...

You have not made a salient point that addresses the idea that corralling and giving special treatment to LGBT/minority community discussion that has grown out of PAX in spite of what seems to have been Penny-Arcade's best efforts is anything less than insulting.

shidoshi said:
I'm not a big fan of "cis"—because I don't like how it comes off—but I think this is a really terrible statement to make, and makes you look bad in the process. (But you might not care.)
Click to expand...

Well uh https://twitter.com/cwgabriel/status/347752256466219008
 
T

tbm24

Member
El_Mau said:
But using the term "safe place" gives you the wrong idea that the rest of PAX is not safe, people would assume that PAX is not a welcoming place for the LGBT community.
Click to expand...

That would depend on the context "safe place" is being used. If you just rip it out of its context, I can see why such an assumption occurs. While PAX is on the forefront regarding being inclusive and highlighting these issues in the past year, I'm not going to pretend that the entirety of the PAX show floor is open game for this discussion. I see no harm in reassuring oppressed communities that they have an area where they can freely discuss these issues without presumably being afraid of setting off red flags for many people. I just find that it's a sensitive topic for a reason and should be approached as such.
 
IrishNinja

IrishNinja

Member
Inorigo said:
Oh, yeah. Rough.

Real rough.
Click to expand...

this - and the subsequent cheers - kinda made me realize where PA was nowadays, stopped wanting to visit their site & support their efforts which is a shame cause i thought they were great in the early 2000's.

shidoshi said:
I see this as "you will know an absolute place to go if you either need a safe area, or if you want to learn more about people who are different than you".
Click to expand...

i totally get your notion of centralizing education but the other bit - shouln't the whole of the floor be a safe area, or am i misunderstanding?
 
S

Solid Samus

Banned
Funchameleon said:
You have not made a salient point that addresses the idea that corralling and giving special treatment to LGBT/minority community discussion that has grown out of PAX in spite of what seems to have been Penny-Arcade's best efforts is anything less than insulting.
Click to expand...

XtaLarge said:
for thinking that this 'segregation' [corralling] is even a thing given even a cursory understanding of how expos work, what this is in the context of that, and how much other content and discussion on the subject is available all over the place at PAX.
Click to expand...

I don't see it as insulting in and of itself, no. It's a fully staffed resource with opportunities abound for networking and connecting with those among tens of thousands of people with whom you can have in depth discussions and dialogue personal and professional about the subject at hand, alongside many opportunities for constructive dialogue elsewhere on the PAX floor, in an atmosphere becoming increasingly more conducive for it.
 
M

Marcel

Member
(Taking some time to collect some reaction and opinion from different sources)

Jared Rosen of IndieStatik's read on the situation:

http://indiestatik.com/2013/12/17/pax-diversity-lounge/

Forcing anyone looking to promote artful products of their experience, as many marginalized members of the gaming community do, to register with the main hall seems like a very sanitized method of controlling just how diverse these conversations can get, especially when you factor in that whole dickwolves saga from earlier this year. That didn’t seem very diverse at all. In fact, it caused The Fullbright Company, and other developers and organizations, to boycott PAX entirely.

To be fair, the hubs could lead to a few practical breakthroughs in how “diversity issues” are handled within the frame of conventions the scope of PAX. GaymerX, a much smaller convention, already does it right. It manages this mostly by being an incredibly tolerant, safe space with loads of colorful people enjoying what they love, without needing a special lounge to let them feel included. Imagine that.
Click to expand...

Indie developer Christine Love (Analogue: A Hate Story, Hate Plus):

L3V1Qcy.png


ABC Arts contributor Dan Golding:

MgfVIkQ.png


Former Destructoid Reviews editor Jim Sterling:

UVD8V2I.png


Steve Gaynor, co-founder of The Fullbright Company:

ldx6Y6P.png


Samantha Allen, writer for The Border House:
Hohzb4O.png
(lol)
 
T

tbm24

Member
IrishNinja said:
this - and the subsequent cheers - kinda made me realize where PA was nowadays, stopped wanting to visit their site & support their efforts which is a shame cause i thought they were great in the early 2000's.



i totally get your notion of centralizing education but the other bit - shouln't the whole of the floor be a safe area, or am i misunderstanding?
Click to expand...

No one is saying the whole of the floor isn't a safe area and that it's open game to be a dick out there. This is an area for socialization, discussion, and education, one that is "safe" from having the focus from those three things changed.
 
D

Dio

Banned
tbm24 said:
No one is saying the whole of the floor isn't a safe area and that it's open game to be a dick out there. This is an area for socialization, discussion, and education, one that is "safe" from having the focus from those three things changed.
Click to expand...

It's impossible to force people to not be dicks. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if a group of people charged into this 'safe zone' just to piss people off.
 
F

Fantastical

Death Prophet
FargoDog said:
So you can only identify with your own race, gender and sexuality?

Jesus Christ.
Click to expand...

Yes, that's what I'm saying. Thank you for the misrepresentation.

I identify with many other gay people on a certain level that I can't as easily identify with people that aren't gay. I would assume that people that belong to other minority groups feel similarly.

I KNOW IT'S RIDICULOUSSSSSS.
 
N

NewGame

Banned
I believe at the Australian PAX last year they already had this. PC gamers were on one side of the venue and on the entirely possible furthest away most distant area was the console gamers section with separate food facilities and toilets for both sections to ensure neither caught the look of the other.

The handheld section just got a floor with bags all over it.

Mobile gamers didn't even have a section and tragically there was 0 legacy console presence-

Wait, what this is about race, sexual orientation, gender and mental illness? Oh uh, cool I guess...?
 
Animal

Animal

Banned
Grakl said:
Plenty of places have safe spaces. University campuses have safe spaces. The term is correct and fine. Anybody can visit. The safe space in question for this convention seems different from a normal one anyway - it's more for education than anything else.
Click to expand...

Goby said:
Yes good. Tolerance is enforced! Those that aren't tolerant get sent to camps.
Click to expand...

OK Good. I wasn't aware that it was a widely used term. Regardless of Mike's previous actions/words, I still want this idea to work and I don't want to leave room for others to twist it into something negative when they execute it. The "diverse" deserve our understanding and compassion which they are often unjustly denied.

EDIT: Just saw the twitter posts above. What I feared is already happening: It is being twisted with a negative spin.
 
D

Delusibeta

Banned
Moral of the thread: as far as a significant portion of minority gamers is concerned, PAX is Mount Doom. Considering that generally speaking this proposal is going down like a sack of potatoes, I can see this getting quietly shelved and PAX going "we announced nuffin'".
 
I

ixix

Exists in a perpetual state of Quantum Crotch Uncertainty.
Animal said:
So that's great. Attendees are aware and informed. Tolerance is enforced. So I guess the issue I have is with their wording: "safe space".
Click to expand...

The concept of safe spaces (or safe-spaces, if you're down with the hyphen) conceptually arose out of feminist and LGBT movements.

This is, like, a reference implementation of a pro-feminist and pro-LGBT idea that originated with the women's movement and was widely adopted by pro-gay rights advocates. That it's being reacted to as somehow discriminatory is utterly bizarre. That it's being compared to Jim Crow-era America and the Holocaust is... actually not that surprising, seeing as how we are on the internet and all.

This thread is something else.
 
T

tbm24

Member
Delusibeta said:
Moral of the thread: as far as a significant portion of minority gamers is concerned, PAX is Mount Doom. Considering that generally speaking this proposal is going down like a sack of potatoes, I can see this getting quietly shelved and PAX going "we announced nuffin'".
Click to expand...

That would be a shame but they are damned if they do and damned if they don't. Welp time to play some video games.
 
T

The Silver

Member
SilentRacoon said:
Except this is not dividing or separating the topics, it's splitting the attendants into two groups for other reasons than trying to cater a variety of topics of interest to the audience attending the event. This is segregation at it's finest, just terrible, but it goes in line with the attitude they have had in the past.
Click to expand...

Where in the hell are you getting that? What other reasons? No one's being forced and herded into separate floors or anything like that. Any white/black/asian/hispanic/gay/trans can go any where and talk to anyone about any topic that's relevant to what's being discussed at that particular place, you know like how a convention works.

This here is a specific forum for people to discuss and educate themselves on a relevant topic to gaming, there is nothing wrong with that and I welcome it.

I'm a black man, my whole I feel like I've been trained and expected to see red at every turn, I don't know about PAX's past and I don't really care, I've read what they're trying to do, I understand it, and I want to see how they execute it, that's where I'm at at this stage.
 
Animal

Animal

Banned
ixix said:
The concept of safe spaces (or safe-spaces, if you're down with the hyphen) conceptually arose out of feminist and LGBT movements.

This is, like, a reference implementation of a pro-feminist and pro-LGBT idea that originated with the women's movement and was widely adopted by pro-gay rights advocates. That it's being reacted to as somehow discriminatory is utterly bizarre. That it's being compared to Jim Crow-era America and the Holocaust is... actually not that surprising, seeing as how we are on the internet and all.

This thread is something else.
Click to expand...

Sorry. I don't know everything. I fear I might not be the only ignorant out there. Watch out!
 
F

Funchameleon

Banned
XtaLarge said:
I don't see it as insulting in and of itself, no.
Click to expand...

Because the alternative is to call the area "The role of games in society" or something and not put people WHO ALREADY FEEL SEGREGATED AND OPPRESSED, especially in this context, in their own little corner. Maybe a dumbshit meatheaded TRUGAMER might be tricked into taking notice and walk out regarding queerfolk as people *shivers uncontrollably*
 
M

mollipen

Member
Unless I'm misreading all of this, the Diversity Lounges aren't going to be some sort of forced corralling of anything and everything LGBT to one area.

The over-reation that happens sometimes among people I respect and care about drives me a bit batty at times.
 
IrishNinja

IrishNinja

Member
yeah, those tweets/writeups so far...phew
gotta be interesting around PA the next day or two

tbm24 said:
No one is saying the whole of the floor isn't a safe area and that it's open game to be a dick out there. This is an area for socialization, discussion, and education, one that is "safe" from having the focus from those three things changed.
Click to expand...

right, i get that, just that Shidoshi highlighted it as a positive here, and from the LBGTQ groups ive seen/participated in, safe areas were likewise stressed, but this usually implied the areas around said group might be less than, so i was just looking for some elaboration - since by Shi & others' claims PAX before this whole mess was said to be one of the most free & tolerant of the convention halls.
 
T

tbm24

Member
shidoshi said:
Unless I'm misreading all of this, the Diversity Lounges aren't going to be some sort of forced corralling of anything and everything LGBT to one area.

The over-reation that happens sometimes among people I respect and care about drives me a bit batty at times.
Click to expand...

Well it is night time, at least in the US. Maybe some sleep would give some of them energy to stop and read what this is about rather than take the opportunity to say something witty on twitter.
 
G

Goby

Banned
Animal said:
So that's great. Attendees are aware and informed. Tolerance is enforced. So I guess the issue I have is with their wording: "safe space".
Click to expand...

Funchameleon said:
Because the alternative is to call the area "The role of games in society" or something and not put people WHO ALREADY FEEL SEGREGATED AND OPPRESSED, especially in this context, in their own little corner. Maybe a dumbshit meatheaded TRUGAMER might be tricked into taking notice and walk out regarding queerfolk as people *shivers uncontrollably*
Click to expand...

Well maybe going on stupid PC rampages and forcing the issue into everything is not the way to be treated as normal.

But then if people like that were seen as normal they wouldn't get special privileges and get to complain and whine all the time.
 
F

Funchameleon

Banned
Goby said:
Well maybe going on stupid PC rampages and forcing the issue into everything is not the way to be treated as normal.

But then if people like that were seen as normal they wouldn't get special privileges and get to complain and whine all the time.
Click to expand...

Your kind are the exact reason this is bad
 
I

ixix

Exists in a perpetual state of Quantum Crotch Uncertainty.
Animal said:
Sorry. I don't know everything. I fear I might not be the only ignorant out there. Watch out!
Click to expand...

To be clear, I didn't mean that post as an insult. The second and third paragraphs weren't a direct response to you; they're a general expression of disbelief at the response to this initiative given that the idea for this diversity lounge sounds like it practically came out of a Feminism 101 textbook.
 
M

Marcel

Member
Goby said:
Well maybe going on stupid PC rampages and forcing the issue into everything is not the way to be treated as normal.

But then if people like that were seen as normal they wouldn't get special privileges and get to complain and whine all the time.
Click to expand...

We're simply whiners, LGBT community. Pack it in everyone, the experiment is over.
 
S

Solid Samus

Banned
Funchameleon said:
Because the alternative is to call the area "The role of games in society" or something and not put people WHO ALREADY FEEL SEGREGATED AND OPPRESSED, especially in this context, in their own little corner. Maybe a dumbshit meatheaded TRUGAMER might be tricked into taking notice and walk out regarding queerfolk as people *shivers uncontrollably*
Click to expand...
Please, do me the service of reading the whole thread through or at least my posts in it before you misconstrue my intent, imply ignorance, and continually present vapid arguments that I've already addressed. And simply going 'lol point not salient' doesn't fly if you can't articulate how I'm off base.
 
Animal

Animal

Banned
ixix said:
To be clear, I didn't mean that post as an insult. The second and third paragraphs weren't a direct response to you; they're a general expression of disbelief at the response to this initiative given that the idea for this diversity lounge sounds like it practically came out of a Feminism 101 textbook.
Click to expand...

Fair enough. No harm done.

But please understand that many educated, tolerant and empathetic people will have never encountered a "safe place" and as result will not be able to understand its origins and meaning. This in itself is a danger which risks betraying their good intentions.

And judging by the Twitter posts linked earlier in this thread, I fear it is already occurring.
 
S

Squire

Banned
Goby said:
Well maybe going on stupid PC rampages and forcing the issue into everything is not the way to be treated as normal.

But then if people like that were seen as normal they wouldn't get special privileges and get to complain and whine all the time.
Click to expand...

Call 911

I'm choking on the irony.
 
R

Rafterman

Banned
ixix said:
The concept of safe spaces (or safe-spaces, if you're down with the hyphen) conceptually arose out of feminist and LGBT movements.

This is, like, a reference implementation of a pro-feminist and pro-LGBT idea that originated with the women's movement and was widely adopted by pro-gay rights advocates. That it's being reacted to as somehow discriminatory is utterly bizarre. That it's being compared to Jim Crow-era America and the Holocaust is... actually not that surprising, seeing as how we are on the internet and all.

This thread is something else.
Click to expand...

It's amazing that people who are supposedly fighting for LGBT rights are condemning PA for using a page straight out of their handbook. If this isn't proof that this is just an anti-PA witch hunt, nothing is. If this were anyone but PA, these same people would be praising how forward thinking the company who tried to do the same thing as what's proposed in that memo are.
 
Seraph_Nicholas

Seraph_Nicholas

Member
Rafterman said:
It's amazing that people who are supposedly fighting for LGBT rights are condemning PA for using a page straight out of their handbook. If this isn't proof that this is just an anti-PA witch hunt, nothing is. If this were anyone but PA, these same people would be praising how forward thinking the company who tried to do the same thing as what's proposed in that memo.
Click to expand...

I don't think it's an anti-PA witch hunt, just zealots who never educated themselves after highschool and never learned how an exchange of ideas occurs.

And what would seem to be a few trolls mixed in with the zealots, using the cause as cover.
 
M

Mushroomer25

Member
Delusibeta said:
$10 says this idea gets scrapped by end of business tomorrow and you-know-who going "well, what the fuck do you want".
Click to expand...

Bingo. Then at some point during PAX, somebody writes up a blog post complaining about a lack of awareness for diversity issues.

Penny Arcade can't win in this scenario. I'd say they should just turn a blind eye to the criticism - but we've seen how that turns out, and it's no better.
 
F

Fantastical

Death Prophet
Goby said:
Well maybe going on stupid PC rampages and forcing the issue into everything is not the way to be treated as normal.

But then if people like that were seen as normal they wouldn't get special privileges and get to complain and whine all the time.
Click to expand...

Please, tell me more about these minorities getting special privileges.
 
M

mnemovore

Member
Rafterman said:
It's amazing that people who are supposedly fighting for LGBT rights are condemning PA for using a page straight out of their handbook. If this isn't proof that this is just an anti-PA witch hunt, nothing is. If this were anyone but PA, these same people would be praising how forward thinking the company who tried to do the same thing as what's proposed in that memo are.
Click to expand...

The difference is that when people on college campuses create safe spaces, it's because the college itself is not a safe space. The PA guys are in total control of the convention, so they could make the whole convention a safe space if they wanted to. The only reasons its not seen as a safe space is because of them.
 
D

Dio

Banned
mnemovore said:
The difference is that when people on college campuses create safe spaces, it's because the college itself is not a safe space. The PA guys are in total control of the convention, so they could make the whole convention a safe space if they wanted to. The only reasons its not seen as a safe space is because of them.
Click to expand...

No they're not. What are they going to do, hire ten times as many people to make sure the enormous crowd of people doesn't step out of line?
 
A

Amir0x

Banned
Mushroomer25 said:
Bingo. Then at some point during PAX, somebody writes up a blog post complaining about a lack of awareness for diversity issues.

Penny Arcade can't win in this scenario. I'd say they should just turn a blind eye to the criticism - but we've seen how that turns out, and it's no better.
Click to expand...

It's not anyone else's fault Penny Arcade is in the situation they were in. The way you say it, you think people are just shitting on them to do it. If they turned a blind eye to criticism, they'd rightfully get slammed because they are partially the reason why there was any controversy in the first place.

That doesn't mean everyone has to support each 'solution' to the problem, and it doesn't mean that you're "damned if you do, damned if you don't."
 
Animal

Animal

Banned
I suspect the leak has not given them enough time to properly communicate their good intentions and cover all their bases. Very unfortunate.
 
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