Based off of that post, I'd say... not really? Or at least that that would be a big oversimplification? I don't know, I mean, I get that the way he's thinking about this stuff is not the best and everything, but I don't really think just vilifying him and just applying that label is really helpful in any way. There's obviously a lot of complicated social and personal issues involved in something like this and just demonizing people who think certain things probably isn't going to make anything better. Obviously neither is a diversity zone or whatever. I don't know if I have a point really other than everything kind of sucks and hopefully eventually it won't.
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PAX To Increase Inclusivity Effort With Roll For Diversity Hub And Lounge
- Thread starter ElNarez
- Start date
Based off of that post, I'd say... not really? Or at least that that would be a big oversimplification? I don't know, I mean, I get that the way he's thinking about this stuff is not the best and everything, but I don't really think just vilifying him and just applying that label is really helpful in any way. There's obviously a lot of complicated social and personal issues involved in something like this and just demonizing people who think certain things probably isn't going to make anything better. Obviously neither is a diversity zone or whatever. I don't know if I have a point really other than everything kind of sucks and hopefully eventually it won't.
Solid Samus
Banned
The difference is that when people on college campuses create safe spaces, it's because the college itself is not a safe space. The PA guys are in total control of the convention, so they could make the whole convention a safe space if they wanted to. The only reasons its not seen as a safe space is because of them.
the convention is actively a safe space and measures have been taken (and elaborated upon in this thread) to help make that happen, including far more exposure and information through panels that directly tackle the issues and a zero tolerance policy toward those who step out of line
Funchameleon
Banned
Please, do me the service of reading the whole thread through or at least my posts in it before you misconstrue my intent, imply ignorance, and continually present vapid arguments that I've already handily addressed. And simply going 'lol point not salient' doesn't fly if you can't articulate how I'm off base.
Well let's see, your points are:
Conventions are separated into topics for ease of access: That's great, how about choosing a label that isn't basically "queers and darkies talk about your shit here while we get on with the videogames". You know, maybe represent it as the wide reaching social issue it is and not freak corner?
Well you can't stop the idiots showing up, so....: Great. Instead of striving to normalize this discussion let's create a corner to tuck it into where previously it would have been with the other meta industry issues it rightly belonged with. Instead of presenting it proudly and openly as part of PAX (as it increasingly was, take it or leave it) let's make it a sidenote on the experience. Out of sight out of mind. Where's the line for Titanfall?
Kick the idiots out. Make a point of it.
This isn't the LAN area or the Indie Booth, attendants to those special areas don't have a history of being segregated and mocked by society at large. This is literally worse than nothing at all.
Mushroomer25
Member
It's not anyone else's fault Penny Arcade is in the situation they were in. The way you say it, you think people are just shitting on them to do it. If they turned a blind eye to criticism, they'd rightfully get slammed because they are partially the reason why there was any controversy in the first place.
That doesn't mean everyone has to support each 'solution' to the problem, and it doesn't mean that you're "damned if you do, damned if you don't."
It's undoubtedly Gabe's fault. Nobody's denying that. But it's accelerated to such a point that Penny Arcade cannot do ANYTHING in the LGBT space without being shit on for it.
It's undoubtedly Gabe's fault. Nobody's denying that. But it's accelerated to such a point that Penny Arcade cannot do ANYTHING in the LGBT space without being shit on for it.
Including doing exactly what LGBT would do on their own, make safe spaces intended to educate and facilitate discussion. Fuck those PA guys, doing exactly what we want!
the whole convention is a safe space and measures have been taken (and elaborated upon in this thread) to help make that happen, including far more exposure and information through panels that directly tackle the issues and a zero tolerance policy toward those who step out of line
We've repeated this stuff over and over again and the people arguing against have conveniently ignored that fact. it's talking in circles at this point, people had their minds made up when they saw the thread title and no amount of information or educating will get them to think differently. They'll see your post and instead of reading the reality of your words their eyes will gloss over and they'll be right back to arguing the same, factually inaccurate, talking points.
Have fun, I'm out. Talking to brick walls is never fun.
Yes, that's what I'm saying. Thank you for the misrepresentation.
I identify with many other gay people on a certain level that I can't as easily identify with people that aren't gay. I would assume that people that belong to other minority groups feel similarly.
I KNOW IT'S RIDICULOUSSSSSS.
You assume wrong. As another member of a minority group, I don't inherently feel any closer to another person because they happen to also be that minority. There's hundreds of other things to relate to. Like, y'know, videogames. At a videogame convention.
Funchameleon
Banned
"Well, our company actually has very good hiring procedures ensuring workplace diversity" *points to end of the room, a lone, small sign sits above the office workers at their desks. It reads, simply, "Minorities"*
the convention is actively a safe space and measures have been taken (and elaborated upon in this thread) to help make that happen, including far more exposure and information through panels that directly tackle the issues and a zero tolerance policy toward those who step out of line
Does that include the organizers?
It's amazing that people who are supposedly fighting for LGBT rights are condemning PA for using a page straight out of their handbook. If this isn't proof that this is just an anti-PA witch hunt, nothing is. If this were anyone but PA, these same people would be praising how forward thinking the company who tried to do the same thing as what's proposed in that memo are.
I'm pretty sure after they made the most recent comment about the merch getting pulled the Cards Against Humanity guys said they were making their booth 'safe zones' and I didn't see anything but cheers for them. This is all very strange.
Solid Samus
Banned
Well let's see, your points are:
Conventions are separated into topics for ease of access: That's great, how about choosing a label that isn't basically "queers and darkies talk about your shit here while we get on with the videogames". You know, maybe represent it as the wide reaching social issue it is and not freak corner?
Well you can't stop the idiots showing up, so....: Great. Instead of striving to normalize this discussion let's create a corner to tuck it into where previously it would have been with the other meta industry issues it rightly belonged with. Instead of presenting it proudly and openly as part of PAX (as it increasingly was, take it or leave it) let's make it a sidenote on the experience. Out of sight out of mind. Where's the line for Titanfall?
Kick the idiots out. Make a point of it.
This isn't the LAN area or the Indie Booth, attendants to those special areas don't have a history of being segregated and mocked by society at large. This is literally worse than nothing at all.
Are you aware that these issues are still discussed elsewhere within PAX, focused toward making more people aware {and working toward normalizing the discussion more than most}? And that this, offering an area to network with and open dialogue much more easily with others vested in the topics on a personal and professional level not to mention developers and companies offering insights, advice, and jobs, is not mutually exclusive from everything else pertaining at the convention {as opposed to the 'dark corner' you want to reduce my reasoning to}?
idiots do get kicked out as well. I understand where you're coming from but it takes a leap to believe that this is worse than nothing given that it is in no way mutually exclusive with PAX's other efforts toward making the expo a place where dialogue on these subjects is encouraged and available to be had
Fantastical
Death Prophet
You assume wrong. As another member of a minority group, I don't inherently feel any closer to another person because they happen to also be that minority. There's hundreds of other things to relate to. Like, y'know, videogames. At a videogame convention.
It's not that I necessarily feel closer, but there is a level of understanding some presumably shared experiences. You can still relate with other people with other things and feel more close to someone else based on those things, but there are different levels. You can't relate to someone with video games if that person has never played a video game, but maybe you both really like movies and you can relate on that level. It's a similar (read: not the same) idea as relating to someone based on shared experiences that a certain minority group faces in society. I don't think it's that crazy of a concept.
Even if you don't agree with that premise, your other post was a gross mischaracterization of the post you quoted from me, and an attempt to label me as an ignorant person.
It's undoubtedly Gabe's fault. Nobody's denying that. But it's accelerated to such a point that Penny Arcade cannot do ANYTHING in the LGBT space without being shit on for it.
I don't know what's the right course of action here, I just hope they had some members of the LGBT and other minority communities give them advice before they decided on what they went with.
However, if you read the article, there are several valid concerns raised, and I think it's fair to be skeptical after everything PA has done until said concerns are alleviated.
The main problem, is the people who need to learn about diversity the most, aren't going to visit this "diversity lounge", hell they can simply actively avoid it. Those ignorant people need that shit force-fed to them. I can see the good intentions here, but this won't help the problem. It's a band-aid, when what we're dealing with is more akin to a cancer. Controversial issues like these make people uncomfortable, especially those on the wrong side of the fence. I'm not sure how these issues can be fixed, but talking about them is the first course, so I hope something conducive can come from this. It would be great if even a few people learn something I guess, just not optimistic one bit about that.
The main problem, is the people who need to learn about diversity the most, aren't going to visit this "diversity lounge", hell they can simply actively avoid it. Those ignorant people need that shit force-fed to them. I can see the good intentions here, but this won't help the problem. It's a band-aid, when what we're dealing with is more akin to a cancer.
Ding ding ding. If the suspect motives and insulting aspects of the idea weren't enough, there's also these!
The main problem, is the people who need to learn diversity the most, aren't going to visit this"diversity lounge", hell they can simply actively avoid it. Those ignorant people need that shit force-fed to them. I can see the good intentions here, but this won't help the problem. It's a band-aid, when what we're dealing with is more akin to a cancer.
I disagree with it.
It's good to give people a choice -- if some people decide to actively avoid it, then that's fine. It's their choice to be wrong.
You are correct that it won't solve the problem though. This is something that can't be done overnight, can't even be done in a year. But every step we make, a small as it may be, is still progress.
We can't expect a leap every time. It's unrealistic to do so.
How about the world's goverments allow equal rights and opportunities to colours, women, gays etc. and we leave the game expo to...games?
I respect what they are trying to do, but I don't think it is going to be very productive. I hope I am wrong obviously, as I happen to respect all walks of life, it's just a shame that apparently 'well educated' people in power can be so ignorant and stupid and a game convention has to try and educate people.
Speaking of someone who 'belongs' in this 'group', I don't like the idea. This is another reason how racism, homophobia etc. can still exist and persist, when you start labelling people and giving them different treatment (whether it is special or not is besides the point), instead of just looking at people as fellow human beings and gamers etc. I think those people who have been discriminated against know just how fucked up this world can be, specifically the human race, but is this the right way to tackle stupidity and ignorance?
I like people's opinions on this. If it helps just one person feel more 'included' and not feel lonely, then I will be happy and change my stance. Hopefully the expo deals with discrimination swiftly and justly, with NO second chances, to give them credence to the notion they are taking these things seriously.
Let's wait and see how it plays out.
I respect what they are trying to do, but I don't think it is going to be very productive. I hope I am wrong obviously, as I happen to respect all walks of life, it's just a shame that apparently 'well educated' people in power can be so ignorant and stupid and a game convention has to try and educate people.
Speaking of someone who 'belongs' in this 'group', I don't like the idea. This is another reason how racism, homophobia etc. can still exist and persist, when you start labelling people and giving them different treatment (whether it is special or not is besides the point), instead of just looking at people as fellow human beings and gamers etc. I think those people who have been discriminated against know just how fucked up this world can be, specifically the human race, but is this the right way to tackle stupidity and ignorance?
I like people's opinions on this. If it helps just one person feel more 'included' and not feel lonely, then I will be happy and change my stance. Hopefully the expo deals with discrimination swiftly and justly, with NO second chances, to give them credence to the notion they are taking these things seriously.
Let's wait and see how it plays out.
It's undoubtedly Gabe's fault. Nobody's denying that. But it's accelerated to such a point that Penny Arcade cannot do ANYTHING in the LGBT space without being shit on for it.
I don't want them to do anything about it other than for Gabe to stop being a bigoted fuckwit.
How about the world's goverments allow equal rights and opportunities to colours, women, gays etc. and we leave the game expo to...games?
I respect what they are trying to do, but I don't think it is going to be very productive. I hope I am wrong obviously, as I happen to respect all walks of life, it's just a shame that apparently 'well educated' people in power can be so ignorant and stupid and a game convention has to try and educate people.
Speaking of someone who 'belongs' in this 'group', I don't like the idea. This is another reason how racism, homophobia etc. can still exist and persist, when you start labelling people and giving them different treatment (whether it is special or not is besides the point), instead of just looking at people as fellow human beings and gamers etc. I think those people who have been discriminated against know just how fucked up this world can be, specifically the human race, but is this the right way to tackle stupidity and ignorance?
I like people's opinions on this. If it helps just one person feel more 'included' and not feel lonely, then I will be happy and change my stance. Hopefully the expo deals with discrimination swiftly and justly, with NO second chances, to give them credence to the notion they are taking these things seriously.
Let's wait and see how it plays out.
The governments of the world are the only to be able to talk about this stuff now? Good luck mate.
I'd gotten the impression (through Tiwtter and skimming) that it was called the "Diversity Lounge" instead of "Roll for Diversity: Hub and Lounge". Glad that they knew better than to call it that.
It's hard not to be cynical about it and make jokes about it because of PA's history, but I'll given this the benefit of the doubt. Assuming it works, this seems pretty cool. Apparently the creators' scandals aren't representative of PAX as a convention, and PAX has hosted many talks about related issues issues.
If it means that developers might go there and potentially see, and listen to, cries for them to provide readable text options at high resolutions for the visually impaired (as well as other accommodations for disabled people), great.
If it means that developers might go there and give people jobs who they otherwise would have written off immediately upon interview, also great. Networking also seems cool.
I hope they do a good job of balancing things such that one group's issues doesn't dominate the space. Since this encompasses many different groups, I'm curious of how it will cater to all of them.
A fear of mine is that trolls will be circling the place like sharks. For that reason, I would be reluctant to go near it, even though it could be the most interesting place for me at PAX. But I'm not a con-goer anyway.
It's hard not to be cynical about it and make jokes about it because of PA's history, but I'll given this the benefit of the doubt. Assuming it works, this seems pretty cool. Apparently the creators' scandals aren't representative of PAX as a convention, and PAX has hosted many talks about related issues issues.
If it means that developers might go there and potentially see, and listen to, cries for them to provide readable text options at high resolutions for the visually impaired (as well as other accommodations for disabled people), great.
If it means that developers might go there and give people jobs who they otherwise would have written off immediately upon interview, also great. Networking also seems cool.
I hope they do a good job of balancing things such that one group's issues doesn't dominate the space. Since this encompasses many different groups, I'm curious of how it will cater to all of them.
A fear of mine is that trolls will be circling the place like sharks. For that reason, I would be reluctant to go near it, even though it could be the most interesting place for me at PAX. But I'm not a con-goer anyway.
XANDER CAGE
Member
The main problem, is the people who need to learn about diversity the most, aren't going to visit this "diversity lounge", hell they can simply actively avoid it.
This is the part that I'm a little hung up on. I applaud what PA is trying to do here, but considering that PAX has always at least had a pretty decent spread of LGBTQ panels and exhibitors, it does feel like it's creating a separation that never existed before. Any attempt to educate is admirable, but I think the focus should probably be on assuring attendees that the entire convention is a "safe zone" for them (which, as some people have pointed out, they've at least been trying until now). I don't really like the idea of having a separate area for games deemed/volunteered as LGBTQ oriented because those games can and have been exhibited in the main hall in the indie area for years already, and reinforcing the idea that they're wildly different or volatile doesn't really help anyone.
I will admit that my tepid reaction to this is probably a little informed by Gabe's previous blunders.
I'm all for equality and what not, but what exactly does this have to do with gaming? It seems like Penny Arcade is middling in issues just for the sake of it.
There are members of the gaming community who are LGBT, and they can have a lot of trouble fitting in and feeling as if they belong. There are also issues with representation in games, character diversity, issues faced in gaming-related workplaces, how the media handles LGBT topics in gaming, and other things.
The moment we decided that video games weren't just toys, it came time to start dealing with issues such as those.
I disagree with it.
It's good to give people a choice -- if some people decide to actively avoid it, then that's fine. It's their choice to be wrong.
You are correct that it won't solve the problem though. This is something that can't be done overnight, can't even be done in a year. But every step we make, a small as it may be, is still progress.
We can't expect a leap every time. It's unrealistic to do so.
I frankly have no tolerance for ignorance on these manners, none. But minds of course can't be changed overnight. It's very frustrating, this problem is complex, so I can admire "Baby steps". However, this simply seems too ineffectual, it feels like a "half-baby step", if even that.
How about the world's goverments allow equal rights and opportunities to colours, women, gays etc. and we leave the game expo to...games
"Colours" and "Gays"? Wow.
bloodyroarxx
Member
I suspect the leak has not given them enough time to properly communicate their good intentions and cover all their bases. Very unfortunate.
I would assume this is the case.
There are members of the gaming community who are LGBT, and they can have a lot of trouble fitting in and feeling as if they belong. There are also issues with representation in games, character diversity, issues faced in gaming-related workplaces, how the media handles LGBT topics in gaming, and other things.
The moment we decided that video games weren't just toys, it came time to start dealing with issues such as those.
It's worth noting even IF you consider games 'toys", the issues would still be worth addressing.
I do think there is real merit in the idea that this is sort of segmenting the diversity off to a corner of the show, and people who actually need to learn will just avoid it. As I do also think there is merit in some of the criticisms in the initial article. These things should be addressed before unrestrained enthusiasm over the idea, and I think it's also fair to wait for official comment before doing so.
However, if this idea is "as is", I think the way to solve it would be to have this "Diversity Lounge", but also to demonstrate the idea of diversity more formally across the show, and to be forceful in pushing that idea everywhere.
NeoGash said:How about the world's goverments allow equal rights and opportunities to colours, women, gays etc. and we leave the game expo to...games?
I respect what they are trying to do, but I don't think it is going to be very productive. I hope I am wrong obviously, as I happen to respect all walks of life, it's just a shame that apparently 'well educated' people in power can be so ignorant and stupid and a game convention has to try and educate people.
Speaking of someone who 'belongs' in this 'group', I don't like the idea. This is another reason how racism, homophobia etc. can still exist and persist, when you start labelling people and giving them different treatment (whether it is special or not is besides the point), instead of just looking at people as fellow human beings and gamers etc. I think those people who have been discriminated against know just how fucked up this world can be, specifically the human race, but is this the right way to tackle stupidity and ignorance?
I like people's opinions on this. If it helps just one person feel more 'included' and not feel lonely, then I will be happy and change my stance. Hopefully the expo deals with discrimination swiftly and justly, with NO second chances, to give them credence to the notion they are taking these things seriously.
Let's wait and see how it plays out.
Absolutely not. This show isn't run by the government, it's run by a private group whose responsibility it is to make an event as inclusive as possible. And it's our job to push back, as consumers of said event, when such standards are not being met.
Also, while it's wonderfully idealistic to wish for a world in which we do not have to use labels, that world does not exist, and instead we must be on constant vigilant guard against such intolerance and ignorance. Trying to ignore the problem like it shouldn't exist (and it shouldn't) doesn't change that it does exist, and therefore must be tackled.
"Colours" and "Gays"? Wow.
Wait, what? Is this some lame and cheap attempt to make me look like a bad guy? Since when was this considered a bad way to describe people?
Help me please, I don't think I have done anything wrong yet here I am being targeted.....
The ironic thing is that I belong to one of those labels....so I must be discriminating against myself......
The governments of the world are the only to be able to talk about this stuff now? Good luck mate.
Absolutely not, but they have the power to help end discrimination by allowing equal rights and opportunities to ALL walks of the human race. It would be much easier to tackle ignorance and discrimination if the governments themselves weren't actively participating in and by extension condoning discrimination IMO. If the governments of the world took a stance and told people that discrimination is wrong by actively practicing that stance, it would go a long way in showing people what is acceptable behaviour and how to treat your fellow human being. Then, ideally, we would not have to squeeze this into a convention about games.
As I said though, if this benefits just one person from a minority group, then I will be happy. It's just depressing that the world has come to this and we have to educate people at a video game convention of all places.
2 Slice Toaster
Member
I suspect the leak has not given them enough time to properly communicate their good intentions and cover all their bases. Very unfortunate.
It would have been interesting if the person who posted the initial report of the leak had made an attempt to contact them and get a response prior to going public with a straightforward opinion piece. It might have made for more balanced discussion overall, but it doesn't seem like they were interested in that based on their Twitter.
Because then Gabe would get fired.Why don't they just implement a "zero tolerance for bigotry" policy?
They don't have one, you know.
Wait, what? Is this some lame and cheap attempt to make me look like a bad guy? Since when was this considered a bad way to describe people?
Help me please, I don't think I have done anything wrong yet here I am being targeted.....
The ironic thing is that I belong to one of those labels....so I must be discriminating against myself......
Sorry that your flippant and childish "let the government sort it out and give me muh video games" remark didn't speak well for much else you had to say.
When I first heard about this I had the same knee-jerk reaction as a lot of people in this thread but the more I think about it, the more it seems like a good idea. I realize that I'm giving Penny Arcade the benefit of the doubt, but shouldn't we wait and see how this whole thing plays out before complaining? A place for education on these issues outside of the panels is a good thing.
Why don't they just implement a "zero tolerance for bigotry" policy?
They don't have one, you know.
. . .
Well they could start there.
However, if this idea is "as is", I think the way to solve it would be to have this "Diversity Lounge", but also to demonstrate the idea of diversity more formally across the show, and to be forceful in pushing that idea everywhere.
Yeah, I especially like your word choice here. These ideas need to be pushed, and actively incorporated throughout the event to be effective. Hell, if they truly have no zero tolerance policy in place for bigotry, that would be a great place to start. There should be no tolerance for it.
Fantastical
Death Prophet
Aren't panels on minority issues basically the same idea as this? Nobody forces people to go to these panels and only like-minded people are going to go.
Sorry that your flippant and childish "let the government sort it out and give me muh video games" remark didn't speak well for much else you had to say.
You're preaching to the choir, stop trying to make me your enemy. I'm not going to insult you, but perhaps you should re-read what I said and my follow up comment.
Do not try and make me look like the fucking bad guy, you twisted my words and that pisses me off.
It seems you and someone else just read the first line of my comment and used it to fit your agenda.
Absolutely not. This show isn't run by the government, it's run by a private group whose responsibility it is to make an event as inclusive as possible. And it's our job to push back, as consumers of said event, when such standards are not being met.
Also, while it's wonderfully idealistic to wish for a world in which we do not have to use labels, that world does not exist, and instead we must be on constant vigilant guard against such intolerance and ignorance. Trying to ignore the problem like it shouldn't exist (and it shouldn't) doesn't change that it does exist, and therefore must be tackled.
I completely agree. I'm not trying to ignore the issue, my point is that it is depressing that those in power, those who can change things for the better with the largest impact; the government, sit back and continue to not give equal rights and opportunities to everyone and instead we have to try and teach this stuff at a gaming convention. It is depressing that it is necessary, and fit helps people, then it has my support. I belong in this 'minority group', but I personally don't like the label. I fear it will just give way to more ignorant people singling us out...but so long as they show a zero tolerance stance on the matter, then I am fine with it.
Your statement that this should be limited to talking about games is what is difficult. I am not disputing that governments need to take action, but saying this should only be about games is bizarre. What subjects within games will be suitable for including? Only technical questions about coding? If someone has a panel about gay protagonists and how the market would respond would that be okay, or not meet your utterly stupid criteria?
Oh, and nice passive aggressive call out, I guess.
Yeah dude it's hard for me to not be a little 'passive aggressive' when I have people jumping on my back left and right and misunderstanding my comments and trying to make me look like a bad guy, it is really annoying when I am passionate about this subject and have the best of intentions. Asking questions about a gay protagonist is a different matter altogether, one which I fully support. I just don't like how they are labelling all of us in a minority (and segregating us almost, like some strange attraction).
I think we all want to see these issues tackled, it's just that my opinion on how to do so is not the same as everybody else's, which is fine. I just don't appreciate being treated like the enemy I have been trying to fight against for a long time.
Absolutely not, but they have the power to help end discrimination by allowing equal rights and opportunities to ALL walks of the human race. It would be much easier to tackle ignorance and discrimination if the governments themselves weren't actively participating in and by extension condoning discrimination IMO. If the governments of the world took a stance and told people that discrimination is wrong by actively practicing that stance, it would go a long way in showing people what is acceptable behaviour and how to treat your fellow human being. Then, ideally, we would not have to squeeze this into a convention about games.
As I said though, if this benefits just one person from a minority group, then I will be happy. It's just depressing that the world has come to this and we have to educate people at a video game convention of all places.
Your statement that this should be limited to talking about games is what is difficult. I am not disputing that governments need to take action, but saying this should only be about games is bizarre. What subjects within games will be suitable for including? Only technical questions about coding? If someone has a panel about gay protagonists and how the market would respond would that be okay, or not meet your utterly stupid criteria?
Oh, and nice passive aggressive call out, I guess.
The main problem, is the people who need to learn about diversity the most, aren't going to visit this "diversity lounge", hell they can simply actively avoid it.
All this is is a way for people who get upset easily or want to find like-minded people to go to a specific area to meet up or segregate themselves from the rest of the convention. This is good an useful, as people with specific interests and issues also head to other areas. It works and is good.
aspiegamer
Member
Indeed. All they'd need to say is that they take a stand against discrimination and encourage diversity "including a variety of special panels" and there'd be no story here. Standard PR and a generic sign of good faith worth stating with their reputation. Show up if you want, but whatever, it's a panel like any other. Words like "enforcer" and "[special] safe space" are what's making it weird.Aren't panels on minority issues basically the same idea as this? Nobody forces people to go to these panels and only like-minded people are going to go.
Indeed. All they'd need to say is that they take a stand against discrimination and encourage diversity "including a variety of special panels" and there'd be no story here. Standard PR and a generic sign of good faith worth stating with their reputation. Words like "enforcer" and "[special] safe space" are what's making it weird.
Pretty much.
Aren't panels on minority issues basically the same idea as this? Nobody forces people to go to these panels and only like-minded people are going to go.
We've had a lot of people come to out panels that were curious about what it means to be transgender, or knew they didn't know much and wanted to learn more. So, people open to learning about others, but not exactly "like-minded" per say.
Indeed. All they'd need to say is that they take a stand against discrimination and encourage diversity "including a variety of special panels" and there'd be no story here.
Include an actual, adult apology from Mike for the things he said and that shit would be watertight.
Fantastical
Death Prophet
Indeed. All they'd need to say is that they take a stand against discrimination and encourage diversity "including a variety of special panels" and there'd be no story here. Standard PR and a generic sign of good faith worth stating with their reputation. Words like "enforcer" and "[special] safe space" are what's making it weird.
Aren't those panels effectively "safe places" too? And enforcers are all over PAX. It's just what the security-like people are called.
We've had a lot of people come to out panels that were curious about what it means to be transgender, or knew they didn't know much and wanted to learn more. So, people open to learning about others, but not exactly "like-minded" per say.
Right, I'm sure that happens, but what is stopping those same people from coming to the "Diversity Lounge"?
Include an actual, adult apology from Mike for the things he said and that shit would be watertight.
I haven't been following. Could you help me a bit please? What has he said and why should he apologize for them?
I haven't been following. Could you help me a bit please? What has he said and why should he apologize for them?
http://debacle.tumblr.com/post/3041940865/the-pratfall-of-penny-arcade-a-timeline
http://nerdy.quora.com/How-to-Fake-an-Apology-Starring-Penny-Arcade
aspiegamer
Member
My mistake! "Enforcer" sounds like quite a loaded term the ways it's used in the press release, is all. Like, you know what they mean but could have stood to word it a bit better and it apparently does a good job of confusing people like myself. Pretty sure I'm with you on this!Aren't those panels effectively "safe places" too? And enforcers are all over PAX. It's just what the security-like people are called.
And of course the panels are "safe". Every square inch of the place should be considered as such without any special announcement or mention. It's like they're going out of their way to admit there's a problem.
I'm not exactly a PA fan and have been generally following the drama for some time. Yeah. This wouldn't hurt. Preferably he wouldn't slowly step backwards from it over time this time, either.Include an actual, adult apology from Mike for the things he said and that shit would be watertight.
Right, I'm sure that happens, but what is stopping those same people from coming to the "Diversity Lounge"?
Nothing. I WANT them coming to the lounge. (Sorry if I'm missing the point of what you're saying.)
He had views others did not like and did things others did not like but asserts himself despite them. Why should he apologize and how would it affect everyone at PAX overall?
Fantastical
Death Prophet
And of course the panels are "safe". Every square inch of the place should be considered as such without any special announcement or mention. It's like they're going out of their way to admit there's a problem.
So why have the panels? The answer is obviously that they are more than a "safe place". The single reason for the "Diversity Lounge" as it has come to be known is not just for a safe place for minorities. Here's a direct quote from the leaked PAX document.
This space will exist as a resource for PAX Attendees to find information related to issues surrounding women, LGBTQ, people of color, disabled people, and mental health issues in gaming. The hub will also be a resource for industry professionals and fans to interface in a setting focused on diversity, receive diversity training, learn more about diversity, and meet people from diverse communities.
This is not a place to stick all the "weirdos" in, and they aren't even selling it like that. Furthermore, this is not some kind of expo on its own for minorities. It's just a room/booth/lounge/we don't know what the fuck it is.
Nothing. I WANT them coming to the lounge. (Sorry if I'm missing the point of what you're saying.)
No, we're on the same page. I shouldn't have said exclusively "like-minded". Maybe just those who aren't predispositioned to go. The point being, if people don't want to go, they don't have to.
This is the part that I'm a little hung up on. I applaud what PA is trying to do here, but considering that PAX has always at least had a pretty decent spread of LGBTQ panels and exhibitors, it does feel like it's creating a separation that never existed before. Any attempt to educate is admirable, but I think the focus should probably be on assuring attendees that the entire convention is a "safe zone" for them (which, as some people have pointed out, they've at least been trying until now). I don't really like the idea of having a separate area for games deemed/volunteered as LGBTQ oriented because those games can and have been exhibited in the main hall in the indie area for years already, and reinforcing the idea that they're wildly different or volatile doesn't really help anyone.
I will admit that my tepid reaction to this is probably a little informed by Gabe's previous blunders.
I don't think it's really accurate to categorize this effort as creating a separation that didn't previously exist. There are kind of two basic justifications for the concept of safe spaces which I think are applicable here:
1. It creates a place where members of minority groups are not passively differentiated ("othered" if you want be academic about it) on the basis of their minority status. Any general admission convention such as PAX which attracts even a vaguely representative sample of the population will create an environment which reflects the broader majority-minority dynamics of the culture at large. It creates a situation where marked traits (that Wikipedia article is needlessly dense I mean damn) of minority individuals are readily observable even in the absence of overt prejudice, which can be discomfiting. A safe space, conceptually, does not necessarily reflect the demographics of the convention (and, by extension, society) at large, and so those marked traits are less readily apparent. It gives a reprieve from passive, omnipresent reminders of minority status.
To simplify that simplification down even further: safe spaces give minority peeps a place to chillax where they're not constantly reminded of their minority status through passive exposure to the raw reality of demographics.
2. It serves a pragmatic purpose in terms of giving minority individuals a clearly-defined avenue for redress. In general (and the leaked document concerning the PAX area addresses this) safe spaces are intended to have representatives of the organization responsible for the event who are specifically trained for dealing with issues of concern to minorities. If someone is harassed or discriminated against because of their minority status they have a specifically apportioned area with specifically trained staff to provide them assistance. There's no confusion about where to seek aid in the event of discriminatory behavior on the part of other convention-goers or even of convention staff, and clearly defined channels for reporting ill-treatment on the basis of innate traits and the advertisement of the existence of these channels creates an environment that is (hopefully) less conducive to abusive behavior in the first place.
To simplify that point down even further: safe spaces give a readily apparent way of reporting people for being dicks. They also serve as a warning to people inclined towards being dicks that they probably oughtta just cut that out already.
It's a remarkably conciliatory move.