So Wizardry is a JRPG, because it was a turn-based RPG before Japanese developers were even making them.
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Let's finish this off, what is the correct definition of JRPG?
- Thread starter Grief.exe
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So Wizardry is a JRPG, because it was a turn-based RPG before Japanese developers were even making them.
cpp_is_king
Member
So therefore by analogy JRPG is not based on the region where the game is developed, just like you agree that JPOP is not based on the region where the music is produced.
So it's based on the nationality of the artists, you say? What about a game with an American staff, developed in Japan? What about a game by a staff made up of 50% Japanese and 50% westerners? Maybe only the executive producer's nationality matters? What if he's mixed?
Oh wait, I get it. Their nationality only matters insofar as it influences the style of the game that they produce. Which is why JRPG refers to the style of the game in the first place.
Do construction workers go around talking about what country the wood they're using originated from when building a house?
"Oh hey I just got some new Mongolian wood."
"Pshh, whatever dude, I use only Indonesian wood."
"Both of you guys are idiots, I use only wood from the Western Hemisphere"
Nobody gives a shit. It's completely irrelevant. What matters is what kind of tree it comes from. Where the tree came from is a completely useless piece of information.
I don't know, why don't you? We do have separate terms for japanese pop music(jpop) and comics (manga), because they have mostly-separate fanbases.
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
No I really would not, speak for yourself
I ask the same thing.. its a role playing game from Japan
This is exactly how I define the two terms. This gets my vote.
Begaria
Member
Heh, I actually addressed that earlier before anyone said anything.
I could go through a bunch of interviews, stringing logical arguments together through a bunch of opinions on a game per game basis if I wanted to, but I chose the quick and dirty way to do it.
/shrug
The easy way to think of it would be Dragon Quest derivatives. I never understood why this was confusing, it's pretty obvious when someone says JRPG they mean something like FF6 and not something like King's Field.
There's no need to overthink it, and yet I've been arguing with people over this for like 15 years. That and those "it's an RPG because you play a role" people, ugh.
There's no need to overthink it, and yet I've been arguing with people over this for like 15 years. That and those "it's an RPG because you play a role" people, ugh.
Actually, it is very much based on the region. If you stick to the analogy, the musicians moved there but are still playing the music they've learned, practiced and played elsewhere that is above all soaked with the traditions, culture and yes, style of the place. That's not something you can imitate, it would never feel authentic.
I don't mean to be that guy but honestly OP what? JRPG has always meant, since its conception, Japanese Role-Playing Game, it's an abbreviation. To say a JRPG is a type of game is ridiculous.
By that logic Final Fantasy 7 was an WRPG because it wasn't set turn base by default.
I mean, I can go on and on, but to say something is a certain genre because it carries similar qualities to something from a particular region from a particular era is ridiculous.
That's like saying non-fiction stories belong under the genre of fiction because they read like a normal narrative and share qualities such as humor and sadness.
OP, it also doesn't help your point when you come and make a thread with a question and instantly shut down anyone who has a different opinion than you by saying they aren't open to thinking and that they don't get your point because they are "ignoring" you.
By that logic Final Fantasy 7 was an WRPG because it wasn't set turn base by default.
I mean, I can go on and on, but to say something is a certain genre because it carries similar qualities to something from a particular region from a particular era is ridiculous.
That's like saying non-fiction stories belong under the genre of fiction because they read like a normal narrative and share qualities such as humor and sadness.
OP, it also doesn't help your point when you come and make a thread with a question and instantly shut down anyone who has a different opinion than you by saying they aren't open to thinking and that they don't get your point because they are "ignoring" you.
cpp_is_king
Member
And yet if you took a random person who knew nothing about games, and gave them Dark Souls, Final Fantasy, Dragon Age, Tales of Vesperia, and Dust: An Elysian Tale, made them play each one to completion, and then told them simply "place these into 2 groups, where the groups contain similar items", they would almost certainly group them as
Group 1: Dark Souls, Dragon Age
Group 2: Final Fantasy, Tales of Vesperia, Dust
SeventhSon
Member
Zelda isn't an RPG of any kind, it's action adventure,* like its cousin Metroid.
*Zelda II is an action RPG, the only exception.
Secret of Mana, Terranigma, Secret of Evermore, Illusion of Gaia, Mystic Quest (and Zelda) - all are not JRPGs. They are ARPGs or Action Adventures.
Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
Actually, forget this. Both definitions of JRPG are annoying and harmful.
Take Xenoblade for example. I was very disappointed by the game because everyone was calling it "Best JRPG of the Generation" so I had very preconceived notions about what the game would be like going in (was hoping for something like Persona 4 or Bravely Default). But Xenoblade is in no way a traditional JRPG. Visuals & story are very much in the traditional JRPG mode, but the gameplay is much closer to your typical Western-developed PC RPG.
So with Xenoblade, I was disappointed because I expected BEST JRPG EVER! But if I had gone into the game expecting ANIME DRAGON AGE: ORIGINS! (which admittedly isn't a perfect comparison but it's a lot closer in my mind than JRPG), I probably would have enjoyed the game a lot more.
Speaking of which, I need to give Xenoblade another shot.
Take Xenoblade for example. I was very disappointed by the game because everyone was calling it "Best JRPG of the Generation" so I had very preconceived notions about what the game would be like going in (was hoping for something like Persona 4 or Bravely Default). But Xenoblade is in no way a traditional JRPG. Visuals & story are very much in the traditional JRPG mode, but the gameplay is much closer to your typical Western-developed PC RPG.
So with Xenoblade, I was disappointed because I expected BEST JRPG EVER! But if I had gone into the game expecting ANIME DRAGON AGE: ORIGINS! (which admittedly isn't a perfect comparison but it's a lot closer in my mind than JRPG), I probably would have enjoyed the game a lot more.
Speaking of which, I need to give Xenoblade another shot.
bender
What time is it?
What if you didn't specify the number of groups when presenting the task? They'd probably put each game into its' own group. Dragon Age and Dark Souls have little in common.
jRPGs stands for Japanese RPGs, which as the name implies are RPGs made in Japan there's nothing more to it.
They're not called Japanese-inspired/styled RPGs.
That's basically what I said in the previous thread.
It's not a real genre, it's just a way to tell people what region the game is from. Game mechanics will never be tied to a country same thing goes for tropes.
Saying something along the line of something like "Bravely Default is a jRPG" is not any different than saying "Alan Wake is Finnish Action-Adventure game"
Also one thing that really annoys me is that certain people classify all turn-based RPGs as jRPGs. Western developers did turn-based first popular western turn-based games include Wizardry and Might and Magic.
Do you know what Wizardry and Might and Magic have in common? They're both first-person dungeon crawlers and that brings up my next subject
Etrian Odyssey and Class of Heroes are more western than Dark Souls and Dragon's Dogma.
I'll try keeping it short since I don't feel like typing that much.
Now if you google Etrian Odyssey or Class of heroes you'll find probably be thinking
"This looks like another standard jRPG" because you got an image like this and probably think I'm crazy because it has anime styled artwork.
Wizardry is a popular franchise Japan, if you played early jRPGs chances are Wizardry was influence and (possibly) introduced Japan to the western fantasy setting. Dragon Warrior/ Dragon Quest, Final Fantasy, and Phantasy Star are some of the popular franchises that were influenced by Wizardry. And when I mean Japan really loves Wizardry they do, in fact some games are only found in Japan despite being a western game. I'm pretty sure there are more Wizardry games in Japan than there are in English.
So how exactly does Wizardry play?
In Wizardry you create your party from a list of classes that are available to you. Being a fantasy-styled game (Just like in Final Fantasy!)
Gameplay wise the entire game is in a first-person perspective even battles, and as I stated above the game is a dungeon-crawler so expect to crawl some dungeons.
As what I said about Wizardry can be applied to both Etrian Odyssey and Class of Heroes. Even though Dark Souls and Dragon's Dogma are western-inspired they certainly do not play like Wizardry or any early dungeon crawler, and a game having a certain art style doesn't change what region it's from.
They're not called Japanese-inspired/styled RPGs.
That's basically what I said in the previous thread.
It's not a real genre, it's just a way to tell people what region the game is from. Game mechanics will never be tied to a country same thing goes for tropes.
Saying something along the line of something like "Bravely Default is a jRPG" is not any different than saying "Alan Wake is Finnish Action-Adventure game"
Also one thing that really annoys me is that certain people classify all turn-based RPGs as jRPGs. Western developers did turn-based first popular western turn-based games include Wizardry and Might and Magic.
Do you know what Wizardry and Might and Magic have in common? They're both first-person dungeon crawlers and that brings up my next subject
Etrian Odyssey and Class of Heroes are more western than Dark Souls and Dragon's Dogma.
I'll try keeping it short since I don't feel like typing that much.
Now if you google Etrian Odyssey or Class of heroes you'll find probably be thinking
"This looks like another standard jRPG" because you got an image like this and probably think I'm crazy because it has anime styled artwork.
Wizardry is a popular franchise Japan, if you played early jRPGs chances are Wizardry was influence and (possibly) introduced Japan to the western fantasy setting. Dragon Warrior/ Dragon Quest, Final Fantasy, and Phantasy Star are some of the popular franchises that were influenced by Wizardry. And when I mean Japan really loves Wizardry they do, in fact some games are only found in Japan despite being a western game. I'm pretty sure there are more Wizardry games in Japan than there are in English.
So how exactly does Wizardry play?
In Wizardry you create your party from a list of classes that are available to you. Being a fantasy-styled game (Just like in Final Fantasy!)
Gameplay wise the entire game is in a first-person perspective even battles, and as I stated above the game is a dungeon-crawler so expect to crawl some dungeons.
As what I said about Wizardry can be applied to both Etrian Odyssey and Class of Heroes. Even though Dark Souls and Dragon's Dogma are western-inspired they certainly do not play like Wizardry or any early dungeon crawler, and a game having a certain art style doesn't change what region it's from.
Yeah, and they'd also probably group Gackt's music with some western rock band, yet only one of them is commonly referred to as jrock. Exceptions don't make the rule.
Garcia
Member
Before this thread I thought plenty of us used the term to refer to RPGs created by japanese developers. At least that's how I've always used the therm, even though most of the time the tag generally fits turn-based oriented sagas like Final Fantasy or Dragon Warrior/Quest (being so popular everywhere). For instance, you can pretty much have action oriented JRPGs, turn based, hybrids, etc.
There is a distinct flavor to western RPGs that sets them apart.
There is a distinct flavor to western RPGs that sets them apart.
PseudoViper
Member
That's like asking ppl. to group a Tomato, Orange, Apple, Carrot and Peas into groups. I'm almost certain most people would do EXACTLY this:
Group 1: Orange, Apple,
Group 2: Carrot, Peas, Tomato,
Does that make a Tomato NOT a fruit?
RaySpencer
Member
For the people who just use it as a regional thing, why do you use it at all? Does the fact that it just originates from Japan do anything? If it can describe any RPG that comes from Japan or a Japanese developer, then what is the point of even bringing it up? There must be some underlying difference for you to even consider the distinction to be necessary, right?
Nobody should be using "JRPG" to describe anything other than country of origin. It twlks you absolutely nothing about the game. Better to use proper descriptors like "turn-based" "action" "strategy", etc. Same goes for western RPGs. The term can accurately describe Mass Effect, Might & Magic and everything in between.
The answer is: I dont use it.
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
Zelda is not even a RPG.
Can I level up anything in Zelda like my character and weapons/tools?
RaySpencer
Member
Which is what we should all be pushing towards.
Unfortunately that is the minority, otherwise this wouldnt even be a debate.
Brawly Likes to Brawl
Member
I avoid using it unless I'm referring to Japanese developed RPGs collectively. If I'm talking about something more specific I use Turn-based/Action/Strategy/etc.
I admit that's a problem, since I wouldn't call Might & Magic a JRPG either.
bender
What time is it?
In the latest Zelda, yes to all. You can upgrade your hearts, magic bar and all of your weapons, tools and armor have an upgraded version or two. I'm not saying Zelda is an RPG.
As mentioned earlier, any works of art originating in specific geographical locations often (but not always!!) have common attributes derived from their unique cultural influences and targeted audiences. It's an adjective used to provide additional detail about what qualities to expect and not expect.
I didn't even know the term existed untilvaround 2007. I'd just been using descriptors that actually described the games I was discussing.
RaySpencer
Member
But if they have common attributes, then its not being used strictly to tell you which region it comes from, it means it is being used to give you ideas about how it should play/look/sound/whatever.
Its a term thats been around for a long time. And at least for me when I was a kid, we would use the term to describe NES/SNES RPGs that played like an old Final Fantasy game.
How does this model fit in KH and Tales? They have the latter three aspects of JRPGs but are action games. I don't know why you'd separate certain games into region and abd certain games into how they play. Plus then what would you call games like Resonance of Fate or Valkyrie Profile 2 which are neither turn based yet strictly action either?
I just refer to JRPGs as any RPG made in Japan. However, people's issue seems to be that the term is too broad. This is why I classify JRPGs into action RPG, turn based RPG, etc. People can argue this because there is a distinction between a game like Tales and one like Dark Souls as the styles are very different, but you overcomplicate things by doing that, so I'd just refer to them as action RPGs. This style of game happens to be broad but are still action RPGs nonetheless.
flatearthpandas
Member
Interesting. I sat down to write out what differentiates JRPGs from WRPGs and games like Wizardry and Icewind Dale stopped me in my tracks.
I will say that JRPGs today have more in common with the older WRPGs and tabletop games that I have played than any recent WRPG I've played.
Maybe it would be better to differentiate Party RPG and Solo RPGs.
Garcia
Member
But of course! For me at least it is crystal clear. You can't tell me that the differences between games like The Elder Scrolls saga and Final Fantasy aren't noticeable. Even when I used such extreme examples of different genres to prove my point, the sort of sterotypes and lore you find in either Japan or Western RPGs are very different.
There are stereotypes that you will only find in japanese games in the same way you'll only find certain behaviors and/or stereotypes in western productions.
daninthemix
Member
Personally I only refer to RPGs as J-RPGs if they are both developed in Japan, and of the style elicited by the term.
I would consider Tales of [whatever] a J-RPG.
I would not consider Dragon's Dogma a J-RPG (nor a W-RPG - it's just an action RPG).
I would consider Tales of [whatever] a J-RPG.
I would not consider Dragon's Dogma a J-RPG (nor a W-RPG - it's just an action RPG).
RaySpencer
Member
I agree, which is why I dont think it should be used to just say its 'from Japan'. There is almost always a noticeable difference between games made in different regions. Which would mean that if something is a 'JRPG' then it must have something different from something thats a 'WRPG'.
I just dont see how it can be used just to tell you which region it came from, and NOT give some sort of indication as to what you should expect.
SeventhSon
Member
If we were to design a genre family tree, Wizardry would be placed as a parent of JRPGs, but not itself a JRPG.
In fact, for video game RPGs, the parents would be Wizardry and Ultima, each inspiring different branches of design in how to translate role-playing game aspects to a video game over the next couple of decades.
Pyrrhus
Member
I agree with your general definition as put forth in the first post, but I think that the times have changed too much. A lot of the fans of what you and I would call jRPGs and mean a very specific thing have no memory of the era when the term was coined.
"Old timers" like us mean FF4 and Lufia and Breath of Fire and Lunar and Suikoden and Tales of Phantasia and Star Ocean and Xenogears and Dragon Quest. But most of those series are dead now and Final Fantasy and even Dragon Quest have abandoned the style. I think we have to let the term go, as to most people it no longer conveys the meaning we intend anymore.
You're right, many adjectives do not strictly convey one thing. They often tell you multiple things! To go back again to my earlier example, describing a movie as being "Indian cinema" tells you where it was produced, and to expect a lot of musical numbers.
Bjomesphat
Banned
When you think of JRPG, what is the first gameplay trait and style that comes to mind? Whatever that is is probably how you would characterize a JRPG. All those claiming country of origin are just arguing semantics. JRPG has moved past the literal definition of country of origin and has morphed into it's own style of game.
The way you should think of JRPG and WRPG is Japanese-influenced RPG, and Western-influenced RPG since they both have their own styles. When you use a genre to define any kind of media, you classify it based on specific traits and tropes. Country of origin doesn't describe anything about the game, hence why the Japanese in JRPG is not meant to be taken literal.
Broadly, you can group Elder Scrolls, Fallout, Ultima, Baldur's Gate etc, under WRPG (even though they're very different games they share a common affinity with one another), however you wouldn't put something like Costume Quest in there and call it a WRPG when it's clearly mimicking JRPGs.
JRPGs and WRPGs are just very broad genres like Action or Adventure. You expect a certain game when you hear that genre, but further sub-genre classification is required to really describe the games. And that goes for any media; games, movies, and TV.
The way you should think of JRPG and WRPG is Japanese-influenced RPG, and Western-influenced RPG since they both have their own styles. When you use a genre to define any kind of media, you classify it based on specific traits and tropes. Country of origin doesn't describe anything about the game, hence why the Japanese in JRPG is not meant to be taken literal.
Broadly, you can group Elder Scrolls, Fallout, Ultima, Baldur's Gate etc, under WRPG (even though they're very different games they share a common affinity with one another), however you wouldn't put something like Costume Quest in there and call it a WRPG when it's clearly mimicking JRPGs.
JRPGs and WRPGs are just very broad genres like Action or Adventure. You expect a certain game when you hear that genre, but further sub-genre classification is required to really describe the games. And that goes for any media; games, movies, and TV.
Totally inspired by Oblivion.
At least post an interview or something before making a claim like that. FROM Software's RPGs have had western Europe stylings for many years before Oblivion came out.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
Understandable, but the idea is that it doesn't make a lot of sense to call "traditional turn-based RPGs" JRPGs when the games that founded that style of game weren't Japanese in the first place.
If I'm not mistaken the early Japanese RPGs were more action-oriented. Stuff like Dragon Slayer, Hydlide, and Tower of Druaga.
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
In the latest Zelda, yes to all. You can upgrade your hearts, magic bar and all of your weapons, tools and armor have an upgraded version or two. I'm not saying Zelda is an RPG.
I guess The Last of Us is an rpg since I can level up my health -____-. You know what I mean.
Having a turn based or a similar system close to it is important for the distinction I think.
Therefore I would call:
Kingdom Hearts = ARPG or Action Adventure
Tales of Symphonia = JRPG (similar to Grandia - since both have a similar variation of the ATB battle system)
Resonance of Fate = ARPG (similar to Vagrant Story)
Valkyrie Profile 2 = ARPG? JRPG? Maybe a special type of JRPG? Perhaps an "Action JRPG" = AJRPG???
(this is tricky, and I'm actually not too sure what to call it)Schweinehund
Member
Made in Japan or has Japanese Cultural Elements/Dialog/Influence.
Very little player customization in terms of looks.
Branching dialog is the exception, not the rule.
Combat systems are usually menu driven.
Very little player customization in terms of looks.
Branching dialog is the exception, not the rule.
Combat systems are usually menu driven.
No idea if what he said is true, but a game can be influenced by more than one thing, you know.