Support NeoGAF

captainnapalm · Sep 19, 2014

The reality is Psychonauts is the best game Double Fine ever made, and even that game had problems. And it was a long time ago.

Something just isn't right there. They really kind of screwed up with Broken Age as well. That should have been a throwback to the golden age of adventure gaming, but they somehow couldn't even get that right. And they split the game in two which I'm sure killed its sales stone dead.

Razma1 · Sep 19, 2014

I've been burned by a few early access games that have little-no progress as well as kickstarter stuff that just seems like wasted money. I think I'm out of this whole early access game for good and done with kickstarter too. I think I backed like 8 games in 2012/2013 and I haven't had a playable version for any of them yet.

LurkerPrime · Sep 19, 2014

captainnapalm said:
The reality is Psychonauts is the best game Double Fine ever made, and even that game had problems. And it was a long time ago.

Something just isn't right there. They really kind of screwed up with Broken Age as well. That should have been a throwback to the golden age of adventure gaming, but they somehow couldn't even get that right. And they split the game in two which I'm sure killed its sales stone dead.

I'd agree with you about Psyconauts, though I haven't played all of DF's games. Psychonauts was charming as hell, but it wasn't really that fun in the gameplay department. Really, more of a trifle than anything - a barrier to the next bit of charm.

That's honestly how all of Double Fine's games feel to me. Gameplay is a barrier between the player and the Double Fine charm they seek.

PaulloDEC said:
Wanted to colour-code these, but no idea how to do coloured text on Gaf.

Use and [bold] if necessary.

LIKE
SO

captainnapalm · Sep 19, 2014

LurkerPrime said:
I'd agree with you about Psyconauts, though I haven't played all of DF's games. Psychonauts was charming as hell, but it wasn't really that fun in the gameplay department. Really, more of a trifle than anything - a barrier to the next bit of charm.

That's honestly how all of Double Fine's games feel to me. Gameplay is a barrier between the player and the Double Fine charm they seek.

Yup, gameplay is a big issue for them, it seems. Something like Brutal Legend could have been so cool, but the gameplay was just a mess.

And if Broken Age had packed its locations with more interactions and hotspots, like a good adventure game should, it would have been that much better.

PaulloDEC · Sep 19, 2014

Stallion Free said:
Thanks for doing this. I asked for it earlier because it appeared no one in the discussion had actually played the game enough to comment on the infamous list.

No worries. I understand that some folks here love nothing more than whipping themselves into a froth without actually getting fully informed first, so I hope it helps them a little too.

LurkerPrime said:
Use and [bold] if necessary.

LIKE
SO

Cheers, updated my post.

HariKari · Sep 19, 2014

Stallion Free said:
Thanks for doing this. I asked for it earlier because it appeared no one in the discussion had actually played the game enough to comment on the infamous list.

There is no real endgame or purpose to having a base. Up until very recently, there was nothing that would disturb you enough that you had to actually watch what was going on. There's an extremely basic economy and research system. A very basic mood and job affinity system. The odd meteor shower will troll you and remove a random tile from the floor, killing everyone if you don't figure out where it is. Most objects do nothing or flat out don't work.

Even by management/simulation standards, it's pretty bare bones. I'd be a lot more forgiving of Double Fine if they had a game that offered more than an hour of depth to it. It's worth nowhere near $30.

Ogimachi · Sep 19, 2014

fallout said:
I think that the interpretation of many is that they're lying scumbags. In reality, they're likely just more hopeful than their pocketbook.

Poor DF, victims of their own amibition for the 982th time.

There's no excuse for this.

Aaron · Sep 19, 2014

It's entertaining for a few hours, but in its current state it makes Sims 4 seem robust.

Coffee Dog · Sep 19, 2014

captainnapalm said:
The reality is Psychonauts is the best game Double Fine ever made, and even that game had problems. And it was a long time ago.

Something just isn't right there. They really kind of screwed up with Broken Age as well. That should have been a throwback to the golden age of adventure gaming, but they somehow couldn't even get that right. And they split the game in two which I'm sure killed its sales stone dead.

I thought broken age was good. It felt content starved, but what was there was well done and tied into the setting very well.

SirPenguin · Sep 19, 2014

The below is a silly analogy, but I always think about this whenever the topic of Double Fine and project management comes up, especially when people defend it as "games are expensive"

"Hey, uh...Double Fine? I'm looking at this commuter expense report. It's...uh...not what I expected"

"Cars are expensive"

"Right, right, I get that, but this expensive? This can't be right"

"Did you watch my documentary on driving a car? Cars are much more expensive to own than people think. Lots of hidden costs, including gas, oil, and other maintenance."

"Sure, yeah man I watched it, but you live less than 5 miles from work. Your commute can't be longer than 10 miles round trip, so I don't get why - "

"Round trip? Oh, no, this is just what it cost just to get here. My report isn't finished. I still need to go back home"

"Ok, you know what, let me see your GPS for a second. i want to see what route you're following"

Anjin M · Sep 19, 2014

The response to this is fascinating. However, the lesson that Double Fine (and any developer) will take away from this is that developing games in the open is a bad move.

Xeteh · Sep 19, 2014

notoriousKTR said:
Notch should buy DF.

I wonder if he's back to thinking about Psychonauts 2.

More_Badass · Sep 19, 2014

Anjin M said:
The response to this is fascinating. However, the lesson that Double Fine (and any developer) will take away from this is that developing games in the open is a bad move.

Why do people always make absolute statements like this? Is it just the Internet mentality?

http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?board=27.0
http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?board=51.0

You know what games (among many many others) have devlog threads there, were made in the open? Might have heard of them

Minecraft
Fez
Papers Please
Lone Survivor

Don't blame the system, don't blame the idea of developing out in the open. It all rests with the developer and their decisions

Wellscha · Sep 19, 2014

money well spent.

captainnapalm · Sep 19, 2014

Echoenigma said:
I thought broken age was good. It felt content starved, but what was there was well done and tied into the setting very well.

What was there was good. But the experience as a whole just felt too slight and shallow - even for half a game. Like it was made for phones and tablets.

Parsnip · Sep 19, 2014

PaulloDEC said:
In the interest of being calm and rational (I know, crazy right?), here's an attempt at noting which of the features from the OP made it into the game.

Thanks, this is good info.
Someone over at DF forums also said that about half of the things in the big-ass list is in the game in some form, your list is about half as well by the looks of things.

That's more than I expected to be honest, considering some of the responses in here and there and everywhere.

mattp · Sep 19, 2014

Randdalf said:
The hyberbole in this thread.

They're announcing they finished the game, what's so wrong with that? If they had ambitious plans and the salaries of the 3-4 man team that made this game isn't justified by its sales then it's completely reasonable for them to stop. Writing a list of future plans isn't a "promise" in any way. The same sort of thing happened to Notch when he was making Minecraft, where he would mention a feature of some sort and then suddenly it was a promise, which made some people unreasonably angry when that feature was late to arrive or not added.

As I understand it, the game is quite feature-rich already, and whilst it doesn't have the Dwarf Fortress levels of complexity that they were aiming for originally, it's by no means an unfinished game, which I feel is the implication here. Moreover, the fact they are now releasing the game should be seen as a success for Early Access rather than a failure.

Don't get me started on Broken Age either because that whole thing was blown out of proportion by Kotaku and non-backers, rather than those who had the context of the documentary series.

this

Disaster Nebraska · Sep 19, 2014

Echoenigma said:
debacle and charlatans huh

it went over budget

that's literally all that happened

quit acting like they ran some kind of con on you

Actually I didn't even buy the game. But are you saying there's no accountability here? DoubleFine has done this QUITE A BIT.

"Ooops we went over time / budget" is cute the first one or two times. The main people within DoubleFine surpassed that limit ... around 2005. That's why DoubleFine moved to smaller games with smaller budgets and shorter development times (Stacking and Costume Quest). They simply stopped being trusted with big budgets, based on the accounts I've seen.

batteryLeakage · Sep 19, 2014

People aren't being fair in this thread. I'm not saying its not a shitty situation, but its a shitty situation for everyone involved. People are making DF out to be cackling shysters running off with a wheelbarrow filled with your money. I'm sure this wasn't an easy decision, but ultimately if the sales of the game don't cover the cost of development then its a necessary one. They had several people working on the game full-time for about a year and I don't recall the game charting on Steam after the initial release period.

Its perfectly reasonable to be wary of Early Access games in the future but I don't think it makes sense to vilify Double Fine and hold some sort of vendetta against them. If Costume Quest 2 or Grim Fandango interest you go ahead and pick them up. Just be sure you know what you are getting. I personally wouldn't buy anything that isn't already in a state where I'd be okay with it if it never got content updates again. But I think that holding a grudge or attacking the developer's character is being petty.

Nephrahim · Sep 19, 2014

Another DF game overpromised and underdelivered, what a surprise.

I wonder how many more unfinished games Grim Fandango nostalgia can sell.

bonesmccoy · Sep 19, 2014

Heh, quelle surprise, Double Fine.

I can't say I didn't expect this when I bought the game last December, but I was hoping to be proved wrong in the end.

Last Double Fine product I buy. Adios, fellas!

Teeth · Sep 19, 2014

Disaster Nebraska said:
Actually I didn't even buy the game. But are you saying there's no accountability here? DoubleFine has done this QUITE A BIT.

"Ooops we went over time / budget" is cute the first one or two times. The main people within DoubleFine surpassed that limit ... around 2005. That's why DoubleFine moved to smaller games with smaller budgets and shorter development times (Stacking and Costume Quest). They simply stopped being trusted with big budgets, based on the accounts I've seen.

Do you know how many games/companies go over time and over budget before anything is ever released to the public?

Over budget is the most common thing in the world. Publishers constantly shell out more money for projects. You never hear about it because why would you?

PaulloDEC · Sep 19, 2014

Psychonauts? Well received.
Brutal Legend? Controversial, but well received.
Stacking? Well received.
Iron Brigade? Well received.
Costume Quest? Well received.
Dropchord? Moderately well received.
Middle Manager of Justice? Moderately well received.
Broken Age? Controversial, but well received.
Happy Action Theatre/Kinect Party? Well received.
Once Upon a Monster? Well received.

According to this thread? Double Fine = untrustworthy shit-tier developer, avoid at all costs.

Ropaire · Sep 19, 2014

I'm still trying to parse my feelings on this news, but I will say as someone who cannot help but remain a fan of Double Fine and JP, as someone who picked up Spacebase as soon as it was available based on the Amnesia pitch only to find that what it actually was, even underneath the numerous warts of its alpha state, wasn't necessarily what I was hoping for; I feel disappointed.

I was hoping the game would eventually have a swanlike transformation as JP LeBreton's passion project, but words like "new content for the game will now be in your hands" just ring out as such a whitewash that it feels like an Activision press release.

I want to be reasonable. I respect and appreciate how personable and gregarious Double Fine is as a company and saying that their output is lackluster across the board is false. This should not become an issue of "gamer entitlement," nor should it be a cause to scapegoat Double Fine or Early Access (I don't buy Early Access games anymore, but I don't want to take it away from developers it may actually help).

So, in conclusion, please, please, please don't let Massive Chalice suck, because it very well might, but I really don't want it to.

CecilRousso · Sep 19, 2014

Fairfax said:
Poor DF, victims of their own amibition for the 982th time.

There's no excuse for this.

Except reality, but hey, that's not really a fun argument that?

saunderez · Sep 19, 2014

PaulloDEC said:
According to this thread? Double Fine = untrustworthy shit-tier developer, avoid at all costs.

They only get 1 chance from me in regard to Early Access/Kickstarter funding and they blew it with Spacebase. This goes for all developers who I have chosen to back with Early Access/Kickstarter. That's a hell of a lot (I'd say into the 100s) and very few have let me down as of now. Since most of Double Fine's business is predicated on EA/Kickstarter at the moment that means I'm not giving them a cent until their games are officially released so I can have a complete assessment of the finished product. If enough people lose trust in their ability to deliver I don't see how they can continue relying on crowdfunding.

PaulloDEC · Sep 19, 2014

saunderez said:
They only get 1 chance from me in regard to Early Access/Kickstarter funding and they blew it with Spacebase. This goes for all developers who I have chosen to back with Early Access/Kickstarter. Since most of Double Fine's business is predicated on EA/Kickstarter at the moment that means I'm not giving them a cent until their games are officially released so I can have a complete assessment of the finished product. If enough people lose trust in their ability to deliver I don't see how they can continue relying on crowdfunding.

That's fair. I was speaking more to the people who've decided that they just won't buy any Double Fine products any more, which seems ridiculous to me.

saunderez · Sep 19, 2014

PaulloDEC said:
That's fair. I was speaking more to the people who've decided that they just won't buy any Double Fine products any more, which seems ridiculous to me.

I'll definitely think twice because I think this speaks of a willingness to drop support for their products. I don't appreciate that much at all. Sure if the game is amazing I'll probably still buy it but it will turn purchases of games I was on the fence for into a firm no.

BreezyLimbo · Sep 19, 2014

PaulloDEC said:
Psychonauts? Well received.
Brutal Legend? Controversial, but well received.
Stacking? Well received.
Iron Brigade? Well received.
Costume Quest? Well received.
Dropchord? Moderately well received.
Middle Manager of Justice? Moderately well received.
Broken Age? Controversial, but well received.
Happy Action Theatre/Kinect Party? Well received.
Once Upon a Monster? Well received.

According to this thread? Double Fine = untrustworthy shit-tier developer, avoid at all costs.

Well to be honest, I've only heard of Psychonauts, Brutal Legend, and you forgot Grim Fandango(Although that was more Tim Schaefer, I assume.) The other games? Personally Broken Age i only know of because I know that's the KS title they made.

You can say well received, but let's not get ahead of ourselves and say they're well known outside of the gaming community. Edit-Well, you didn't say that, that's just what I assumed out of your post.

Ozium · Sep 19, 2014

fallout said:
I think that the interpretation of many is that they're lying scumbags. In reality, they're likely just more hopeful than their pocketbook.

I don't think they are lying scumbags I just think that while they are enormously talented creatively they have very very poor managerial and business skills.

xJavonta · Sep 19, 2014

RyosukeTH said:
Stupid would be giving any other cent to those scammers. They could make a 95 metacritic game and will still not receive any money from me.

Lmao wow. Okay

You lost what? 20? 25? Really not a ton of money and you should've considered the fact that you bought an unfinished product in the first place. Sit down.

JaseC · Sep 19, 2014

PaulloDEC said:
In the interest of being calm and rational (I know, crazy right?), here's an attempt at noting which of the features from the OP made it into the game. This is based on my experience and memory, so feel free to correct me:

(Things that straight-up didn't get done are in red).

Wanted to colour-code these, but no idea how to do coloured text on Gaf.

Not actually that bad IMO, especially considering the last eight or so are clearly best-case-scenario pie-in-the-sky type deals that were never realistically going to happen.

Ta, I'll add this to the OP.

Xhorder · Sep 19, 2014

Ozium said:
I don't think they are lying scumbags I just think that while they are enormously talented creatively they have very very poor managerial and business skills.

Looks to me they have good enough business skills to know when to quit. The game isn't selling enough to warrant extra development time on it.

Coxy · Sep 19, 2014

whatever you think about them as a developer in terms of quality and efficiency, they are absolutely poisoning every well they touch and need to stop

dark_inferno · Sep 19, 2014

This thing happened quite often. But nobody cares about smaller indie devs.

Double Fine is more like a big indie studio that is also well received. Thats why everyone cares about this.

This thing sucks but it happens. If you dont want this to happen then throw money at them. You need money to make those games and you cant live from vocal support.

PaulloDEC · Sep 19, 2014

Coxy said:
whatever you think about them as a developer in terms of quality and efficiency, they are absolutely poisoning every well they touch and need to stop

I uh... what?

satriales · Sep 19, 2014

I bought into this very early on as I loved the potential of Dwarf Fortress in space with decent graphics and UI. However initially there was not enough features or content for more than a 10-minute demo, and it was disappointing to find there were only a couple of people at DF working on the game.

So I've been following the updates closely and they have added some big things every month, but it's still not at a state where it could be considered a finished game.
After last month when the community was worried by the lack of updates and DF promised they wouldn't just abandon the game,it comes as even more of a shock to see that they are giving up on it.

deleted · Sep 19, 2014

More_Badass said:
Why do people always make absolute statements like this? Is it just the Internet mentality?

I guess it's the fact, that absolute statements stand out a lot more and tend to be quoted more often than the reasonable ones..

And there are a lot of these statements in this thread alone.

This situation is far from ideal, but it's not like Double Fine is a scam artist. It's one of the very few remaining middle sized studios and it tries to be somewhat transparent and to transition away from the traditional publisher model. This in itself takes a lot of planning and effort.
To handle all this stuff internally and having to figure it out without deadlines from a publisher should be pretty hard and it's not surprising that they are struggling to find the right balance with their first try.

So far this studio has put out a lot of games and I tend to enjoy most of them. They are creative and I can make out some similarities in style and humor when compared to the old Rare. They have managed to successfully kickstart 2 games, both of which are coming along and seem to fulfill their initial promise quite well.
And they have failed with their Early Access title. In communication to their customers and fans and with the development of the game. This is bad from their part.
But it's not like they made the worst game ever or played us like EA or other big publishers.

old manatee · Sep 19, 2014

Anjin M said:
The response to this is fascinating. However, the lesson that Double Fine (and any developer) will take away from this is that developing games in the open is a bad move.

Developing a game that people have paid for and then abandoning that game is a bad move. It's going to be fascinating to watch them try to fund more games through early access.

More_Badass · Sep 19, 2014

To all the "Early Access/Kickstarter is a scam, can never be trusted" people, Wasteland 2 just left Early Access and is finally fully released and finished. Just saying

CecilRousso · Sep 19, 2014

Ozium said:
I don't think they are lying scumbags I just think that while they are enormously talented creatively they have very very poor managerial and business skills.

You don't stay a middlesized indepedent developer for 14 years, with well received games, if you have very very poor managerial and business skills.

People have this weird idea that running into obstacles is a sign of incompetence and failure. It isn't.

Odrion · Sep 19, 2014

More_Badass said:
To all the "Early Access/Kickstarter is a scam, can never trusted" people, Wasteland 2 just left Early Access and is finally fully released and finished. Just saying

It's even better than expected and it was developed alongside their kickstarted Torment 2, which looks to be incredible as well.

BennyBlanco · Sep 19, 2014

Early access.... Not even once

TekGryphon · Sep 19, 2014

SteveWinwood said:
You've funded green light status? Like you paid the 100 dollar listing fee?

Good heavens, no.

FYI: in the early days of greenlight, developers mostly made their greenlight games CHEAPER than their release price.

deadfolk said:
Wait, what?

I'm not lying. Go check the Towns news section on Steam and read the forums. The developers are back in action and, if I remember, 2 patches have already come out in recent months.

fallout · Sep 19, 2014

TekGryphon said:
I'm not lying. Go check the Towns news section on Steam and read the forums. The developers are back in action and, if I remember, 2 patches have already come out in recent months.

To be fair, Towns wasn't even Early Access. It was just an unfinished mess that looked neat.

celebi23 · Sep 19, 2014

Here's the developer's "explanation" on Steam & the DoubleFine Forums

When we started Spacebase a year and a half ago, we knew that its continued development past Alpha 1 would be contingent on things partly or wholly outside our control. Spacebase had a strong launch in October of last year and while sales remained steady for a while afterwards, earlier this year it became clear that we would have to work towards wrapping up development. As project lead I can honestly tell you that weve done everything we could to keep making the game the best it can be. We pulled out all the stops we could for Alpha 6 and were proud of the depth it has added to the game. I believe the Goals and Tutorial Mode were adding for 1.0 are also a large missing piece that will lend the game greater unity and direction. We were careful not to make promises about anything on the old dev plan page, even as we hoped wed someday get to implement all of it and more. Again this came down to time and resources, factors beyond my control.

To everyone who has supported Spacebase since or after its genesis in Amnesia Fortnight 2012, to everyone who has provided feedback, and voiced constructive criticism or even disappointment: you have my deepest thanks. With the dev time we have left were going to do the best we can to create something worthy of all that. This didnt end up being a decade-in-development odyssey, but I hope youve enjoyed the process and find the end result fun to play.

Jb · Sep 19, 2014

celebi23 said:
Here's the developer's "explanation" on Steam & the DoubleFine Forums

I appreciate their honesty, but from an outsider's perspective it strikes me as odd from a business model standpoint to expect early access sales for a modest game like Spacebase to be sufficient to fund develoment for a year +. Unless that game gains insane traction like Minecraft of Day-Z standalone you would expect most of the funding to be already done before the EA phase.

More_Badass · Sep 19, 2014

celebi23 said:
Here's the developer's "explanation" on Steam & the DoubleFine Forums

Why the quotations marks? It's unfortunate but yes, lack of time and resources (be it money and/or manpower) can grind a game's development to a halt. It's not like they took the money and ran or bought a new house.

LurkerPrime · Sep 19, 2014

More_Badass said:
Why the quotations marks? It's unfortunate but yes, lack of time and resources (be it money and/or manpower) can grind a game's development to a halt. It's not like they took the money and ran or bought a new house.

Well, here's my understanding for the timeline to the end of Spacebase DF-9's development:

Early-mid 2014: Internally, it becomes clear to Double Fine that sustained development cannot continue.
??? 2014: Development roadmap is quietly modified
August 2014: Developer vows not to abandon game
September 2014: SBDF-9 miraculously hits version 1.0 and halts active development.

From this, I would say their transparency leaves a lot to be desired.

Archaix · Sep 19, 2014

LurkerPrime said:
Well, here's my understanding for the timeline to the end of Spacebase DF-9's development:

Early-mid 2014: Internally, it becomes clear to Double Fine that sustained development cannot continue.

??? 2014: Development roadmap is quietly modified

August 2014: Developer vows not to abandon game

September 2014: SBDF-9 miraculously hits version 1.0 and halts active development.

From this, I would say their transparency leaves a lot to be desired.

Don't forget that part a week before they hit that amazing 1.0 milestone, when they put the game on Steam Sale with absolutely no indication that development was about to be taken out back with a shotgun.

Support NeoGAF

Double Fine halting Spacebase DF-9 development

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Banned

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Banned

Neo Member

Member

Banned

Member

Member

Banned

Member

Member

Member

Member

Banned

Member

Banned

gave away the keys to the kingdom.

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Banned

Member

Member

Banned

aka IMurRIVAL69

Banned

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Drunky McMurder

Similar threads