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Sony Patents Emotion Engine Emulation Technology For Cell Processors

S

Steve Youngblood

Member
A.R.K said:
So for those who just NEED the BC or else PS3 is fail, I ask whats the fucking big deal??? Of course it would be a nice thing to have but is it really that missed that some of you guys say things like 'no BC .. no sale' .. WTF seriously! Most won't even play PS2 games if this really did happen
Click to expand...
Well, I think you're being a little too cynical, but I do agree that it's not that big a deal other than being another bullet-point to throw on the box. It's a nice feature that will be appreciated by a number of people, but it's not going to move units in droves. In fact, by itself, I don't think it would make a significant impact on hardware numbers at all.
 
S

Stalfos

Member
androvsky said:
http://appft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...Engine"+AND+Cell&RS="Emotion+Engine"+AND+Cell

If I'm reading it correctly, the patent was filed like last week. So unless someone at Siliconera has a habit of checking patents every week (ones titled "PROCESSOR EMULATION USING FRAGMENT LEVEL TRANSALTION" don't exactly leap off the page), someone at Sony tipped them off.

EDIT: I'm NOT reading it correctly. It was filed December of 2008. Still decently recent. Don't know what the June 25, 2009 refers to.
Click to expand...
June 25th is the publication date.
 
Dice

Dice

Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
I got the MGS4 bundle and it does limited (but not that limited) software BC. So what exactly is being worked on here?
 
J

JoJo13

Banned
Stalfos said:
June 25th is the publication date.
Click to expand...

June 25th 2008 -- well after software BC which was released in Europe over a year before.

So these are definitely *NEW* patents.

And that's the biggest news we can glean from this.
 
blu

blu

Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
*reads thread this far.. facepalms. begins stepping back toward the door.. then remembers*

this is neogaf.

enjoy this one, faf.
 
Truespeed

Truespeed

Member
This probably has more to do with downloadable PS2 games from PSN then inserting a PS2 disc into your PS3. Sorry, but that's how it's going to be.
 
P

Prezhulio

Member
The Faceless Master said:
i thought they already emulated the EE...
Click to expand...


they do, people don't understand that GS onboard will still be required for BC till they figure out the vertex shader emulation problem so news sites are going crazy about it.
 
M

MrDaravon

Member
Truespeed said:
This probably has more to do with downloadable PS2 games from PSN then inserting a PS2 disc into your PS3. Sorry, but that's how it's going to be.
Click to expand...

My thoughts exactly. As someone who has a huge unplayed PS2 backlog and a non-BC PS3 I'd love to be proven wrong though.
 
D

Diablos

Member
The GS is kinda important, though. I would hope there's a patent for it that's still in the works.

But if there ends up being no GS emulation, this would lead me to believe it's for another product... OR it could be for semi-hacked PSN games that one must pay for.
 
R

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
As a software engineer, I find this quite interesting. The fact that they patented this (now), leads me to believe this is very different than the emulation used in the 2nd gen PS3's. I assume that emu used a more tradition translation engine ... this sort of referential emu is a very novel idea.


However, it leads me to one question ...














Where's the GS emu?!!?!?!?!?!
 
P

Prezhulio

Member
Onix said:
Where's the GS emu?!!?!?!?!?!
Click to expand...

ding ding ding ding, they clearly already had some sort of emulation working for EE previously if this is in fact a new method. so unless this R&D has some effect on the process for emulation of the GS then why should we care
 
R

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
Diablos said:
The GS is kinda important, though. I would hope there's a patent for it that's still in the works.

But if there ends up being no GS emulation, this would lead me to believe it's for another product... OR it could be for semi-hacked PSN games that one must pay for.
Click to expand...

I'm kind of wondering if it's for that latter?


They may have devised a really speedy EE emu (that includes support for HD res) ... but devs would need to port the GPU code?



Prezhulio said:
ding ding ding ding, they clearly already had some sort of emulation worked for EE previously if this is in fact a new method. so unless this R&D has some effect on the process for emulation of the GS then why should we care
Click to expand...

As a standard end-user, you really have no reason to care about this patent.
 
Z

Zhuk

Banned
While these patents certainly are interesting, the actual real world implications of them remain to be seen as to the actual possibility of being able to effectively implement PS2 emulation on the PS3 at a level that is acceptable to the public, in the end only time will tell.
 
H

HomerSimpson-Man

Member
Truespeed said:
This probably has more to do with downloadable PS2 games from PSN then inserting a PS2 disc into your PS3. Sorry, but that's how it's going to be.
Click to expand...

Then wouldn't it just also play the same PS2 discs?

That is unless they recode all the PS2 PSN games, now that would be pretty hardcore.
 
B

BobTheFork

Member
HomerSimpson-Man said:
Then wouldn't it just also play the same PS2 discs?

That is unless they recode all the PS2 PSN games, now that would be pretty hardcore.
Click to expand...
Well, I'm assuming with this that disc games would be locked on non-BC units but you would still have the convenience of paying to play games you already own.
 
F

Fafalada

Fafracer forever
Onix said:
The fact that they patented this (now), leads me to believe this is very different than the emulation used in the 2nd gen PS3's.
Click to expand...
I think it's an evolution of their previous patent (which focused on using multi-core setup for balancing translation loads). This is about eliminating re-translation requirement in many cases and limiting it to fragment-size even in cases where it needs to be done.
The same general principle could apply to translating DMA chains and GS display-lists.

Mind you, the patent is more general then focusing specifically on PS3 (Panajev noticed this one):
"[0061]It is noted that in the above examples, the instruction memory emulation, main translation and secondary processor emulation functions are described as being implemented by different processors. This is not meant to be a strict limitation applicable to all embodiments of the invention. Alternatively, these three functions may be implemented using any number of processors, even a single processor, e.g., through appropriately configured multi-threaded operation."
Click to expand...
 
S

SamBishop

Banned
g35twinturbo said:
I called this AGES ago :)

everyone pointed and laughed :(
Click to expand...

Well hi, there, buddy!

Just to add fuel to fire, the EE and GS were combined onto one chip a while ago. A long while ago. I'm fighting the urge to scream "retribution" because all I ever got was word from someone else about it happening, but I trust this person. And I gotta kinda feel a little hopeful that he wasn't feeding me shit. He's been right on so many other things, but I can't help but feel like my comments before ride on this -- or rather the byproduct of it.

[edit] And to my mind, this isn't any kind of real confirmation of anything beyond the idea that anything with a CELL (like, maybe a TV) could both decode HD video like a fat guy attacking a 12-stack of pancakes and play "old-school" PS2 games not so small as to make the idea of downloading them to a tee vee on a local network (like, say, a replacement for those hotel TVs) a possibility.

Still not seeing it as confirmation of what I've heard, but I do see it as a further continuation of the best console/library ever made. If you think once the CELL is cheap enough there won't also be PS2 in one, you are as batshit as you likely thing I am sir/madam.

This is confirmation of a PSN PS2 games service in one form or another.
 
Truespeed

Truespeed

Member
HomerSimpson-Man said:
Then wouldn't it just also play the same PS2 discs?

That is unless they recode all the PS2 PSN games, now that would be pretty hardcore.
Click to expand...

They'll definitely have to do something with the executable to account for the supposedly missing Graphics Synthesizer emulation. In fact, for all we know they may have already emulated the GS. But if not, then they'll just have to do some recompilation and use a procedure whereby all GS API calls are intercepted and routed to their respective Cell SPE/RSX API equivalents.
 
S

Slavik81

Member
Truespeed said:
This probably has more to do with downloadable PS2 games from PSN then inserting a PS2 disc into your PS3. Sorry, but that's how it's going to be.
Click to expand...
I'd prefer that, actually. I want PS2 BC so I can play games I've never played before.

It's rather moot, as I already have my 60GB PS3, but I'd still benefit from getting PS2 games up on the PSN store.
 
J

JoJo13

Banned
SamBishop said:
Well hi, there, buddy!

Just to add fuel to fire, the EE and GS were combined onto one chip a while ago. A long while ago. I'm fighting the urge to scream "retribution" because all I ever got was word from someone else about it happening, but I trust this person. And I gotta kinda feel a little hopeful that he wasn't feeding me shit. He's been right on so many other things, but I can't help but feel like my comments before ride on this -- or rather the byproduct of it.

[edit] And to my mind, this isn't any kind of real confirmation of anything beyond the idea that anything with a CELL (like, maybe a TV) could both decode HD video like a fat guy attacking a 12-stack of pancakes and play "old-school" PS2 games not so small as to make the idea of downloading them to a tee vee on a local network (like, say, a replacement for those hotel TVs) a possibility.

Still not seeing it as confirmation of what I've heard, but I do see it as a further continuation of the best console/library ever made. If you think once the CELL is cheap enough there won't also be PS2 in one, you are as batshit as you likely thing I am sir/madam.

This is confirmation of a PSN PS2 games service in one form or another.
Click to expand...

So, are your sources suggesting a hardware BC solution and not software?
 
S

SamBishop

Banned
JoJo13 said:
So, are your sources suggesting a hardware BC solution and not software?
Click to expand...

Software. It was always software. I need to check my dates, but I think it was before BC was removed entirely. Regardless, it was software from the start. And most recently lined up with "a slim PS3." So.. fingers crossed...
 
M

MoogPaul

Member
How big would something like software emulator be file size wise? Would it be massive to the point where you'd have to download it or small enough that they could sneak it into each PS2 title that comes up on PSN (thus preventing disc based BC)?
 
J

JoJo13

Banned
SamBishop said:
Software. It was always software. I need to check my dates, but I think it was before BC was removed entirely. Regardless, it was software from the start. And most recently lined up with "a slim PS3." So.. fingers crossed...
Click to expand...

Yeah, that definitely would make sense. Having it in software is at no additional cost.

I suppose I was just confused by this comment: "Just to add fuel to fire, the EE and GS were combined onto one chip a while ago."

Anyways...I really hope your source is right about this one!
 
R

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
SamBishop said:
Just to add fuel to fire, the EE and GS were combined onto one chip a while ago. A long while ago. I'm fighting the urge to scream "retribution" because all I ever got was word from someone else about it happening, but I trust this person. And I gotta kinda feel a little hopeful that he wasn't feeding me shit. He's been right on so many other things, but I can't help but feel like my comments before ride on this -- or rather the byproduct of it.
Click to expand...


Sorry to break it to you, but that single die EE/GS/eDRAM you're talking about ...


... yeah, that originally showed up in the PS2 Slim ... and a variation of that chipset, was what populated the launch PS3.


:\
 
B

badcrumble

Member
MoogPaul said:
How big would something like software emulator be file size wise? Would it be massive to the point where you'd have to download it or small enough that they could sneak it into each PS2 title that comes up on PSN (thus preventing disc based BC)?
Click to expand...
Emulation software is usually pretty small.
 
J

JoJo13

Banned
Onix said:
Sorry to break it to you, but that single die EE/GS/eDRAM you're talking about ...


... yeah, that originally showed up in the PS2 Slim ... and a variation of that chipset, was what populated the launch PS3.


:\
Click to expand...


well he claims that whatever is being worked on is software emulation only, so the integrated chip doesn't really have any relevance to PS3 BC
 
S

SamBishop

Banned
JoJo13 said:
well he claims that whatever is being worked on is software emulation only, so the integrated chip doesn't really have any relevance to PS3 BC
Click to expand...

It does in the sense that I felt moving things onto one die might have made it easier to replicate things. In retrospect, that's pretty retarded as the issue is fill rate and I didn't really think that through too much, but... well, no but, I is dum.
 
D

disappeared

Banned
Firestorm said:
Firmware Update please. If this is slim exclusive I will rage so hard.
Click to expand...

There's no reason for that to be the case. If it's simply a matter of a firmware update then every PS3 should be eligible.

In fact Sony would be downright insane to do such a thi... hmm...
 
B

Bearillusion

Banned
SamBishop said:
Well hi, there, buddy!

Just to add fuel to fire, the EE and GS were combined onto one chip a while ago. A long while ago. I'm fighting the urge to scream "retribution" because all I ever got was word from someone else about it happening, but I trust this person. And I gotta kinda feel a little hopeful that he wasn't feeding me shit. He's been right on so many other things, but I can't help but feel like my comments before ride on this -- or rather the byproduct of it.

[edit] And to my mind, this isn't any kind of real confirmation of anything beyond the idea that anything with a CELL (like, maybe a TV) could both decode HD video like a fat guy attacking a 12-stack of pancakes and play "old-school" PS2 games not so small as to make the idea of downloading them to a tee vee on a local network (like, say, a replacement for those hotel TVs) a possibility.

Still not seeing it as confirmation of what I've heard, but I do see it as a further continuation of the best console/library ever made. If you think once the CELL is cheap enough there won't also be PS2 in one, you are as batshit as you likely thing I am sir/madam.

This is confirmation of a PSN PS2 games service in one form or another.
Click to expand...

I hope you don't write for a living because that made no sense at all.
 
M

Miburou

Member
The_Inquisitor said:
So they don't have to distribute multiple versions of the OS. It simpler to have one build than a few.
Click to expand...

arhra said:
Because it's not worth doing a custom version of the firmware without that capability for non-BC models, probably.
Click to expand...

Actually, it's easy to have the same firmware enable or disable features based on the revision of the hardware it's installed on (like how the same firmware on JP PS3s and PSPs has different features than when it's on a western PS3/PSP) so that would not be the reason that option is still there. Probably left there because backing up saves is still a useful feature and they can sell some more memory card adaptors.
 
S

StuBurns

Banned
Miburou said:
Actually, it's easy to have the same firmware enable or disable features based on the revision of the hardware it's installed on (like how the same firmware on JP PS3s and PSPs has different features than when it's on a western PS3/PSP) so that would not be the reason that option is still there. Probably left there because backing up saves is still a useful feature and they can sell some more memory card adaptors.
Click to expand...
They must do this anyway, the original hardware based BC is still better than software version, so the FW must differentiate between the hardware when deciding how to run PS2 software.
 
N

Nick Laslett

Member
Well, I've been banging on about PS3slim, software BC, price drops & downloadable PS2 games for what seems like forever (Dec '07).

It seems like the perfect storm, the only option for Sony to have any chance of recovering the huge investment PS3.

If the PS3slim, software BC, price drop & downloadable PS2 games do all arrive this Fall, it will be a pretty amazing relaunch for PS3.

If all this stuff is staggered and drawn out it will have nowhere near the same impact.

C'mon, neoGAF if you've got to believe in something, what a great dream to have. A resurgent Sony will provide healthy competition to the other two players, in the end we will all benefit from a situation like this.
 
M

makingmusic476

Member
Nick Laslett said:
Well, I've been banging on about PS3slim, software BC, price drops & downloadable PS2 games for what seems like forever (Dec '07).

It seems like the perfect storm, the only option for Sony to have any chance of recovering the huge investment PS3.

If the PS3slim, software BC, price drop, downloadable PS2 games, and GT5 do all arrive this Fall, it will be a pretty amazing relaunch for PS3.

If all this stuff is staggered and drawn out it will have nowhere near the same impact.

C'mon, neoGAF if you've got to believe in something, what a great dream to have. A resurgent Sony will provide healthy competition to the other two players, in the end we will all benefit from a situation like this.
Click to expand...
Fixed, and I agree. And keep in mind, they do plan to top last year's shipment figures by a full 30%, despite being down considerably year on year so far. They obviously have big things planned. Big things.

Now if only I could figure out what in the hell SamBishop was rambling about.
 
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