Support NeoGAF

[leroidys]

I strongly believe that it's the Graphics Synthesizer that they need to emulate. Emotion Engine is missing from launch PAL PS3s, yet they are PS2 backwards compatible.

Does anyone know what specifically makes the GS so hard to emulate for the PS3?

 

[Kazuma Kiryu]

It says right there on the page:

Where are you seeing the "last week" thing?

why are you destroying everyone's DREAMS!?!?!?!?! ='(

 

[The_Inquisitor]

What does strike me as odd I that 40, 80, and 160 GB PS3s have the capability to make PS2 memory cards... Why is that?

So they don't have to distribute multiple versions of the OS. It simpler to have one build than a few.

 

[arhra]

What does strike me as odd I that 40, 80, and 160 GB PS3s have the capability to make PS2 memory cards... Why is that?

Because it's not worth doing a custom version of the firmware without that capability for non-BC models, probably.

 

[StuBurns]

Does anyone know what specifically makes the GS so hard to emulate for the PS3?

There's a great picture that explains it really well. I can't find it. It's a bandwidth issue.

 

[DMeisterJ]

Because it's not worth doing a custom version of the firmware without that capability for non-BC models, probably.

I imagine.

I just thought it was a case of Sony being lazy. A la the clock.

 

[androvsky]

It says right there on the page:

Where are you seeing the "last week" thing?

Edit: Oh the top right corner. Not sure what that date indicates

Yeah, I updated my post, got caught up in the excitement when I saw the June 25, 2009 date. Still, Dec. 9, 2008 is reasonably recent (aka post Euro-PS3 launch).

 

[badcrumble]

There's a great picture that explains it really well. I can't find it. It's a bandwidth issue.

Shouldn't it be okay emulating the GS at non-HD resolutions, though? As I recall the problem is mainly that it wouldn't be able to render PS2 graphics at 720p/1080i/p. It's a proportional fill rate issue, not an actual fill rate issue, I believe.

 

[p_xavier]

The concept is better in this way, if the PS3 could recompile the PS2 game and put it on the PS3 hard drive, that would probably solve the bandwith issue. It's an interesting concept.

 

[inner-G]

If farmed out to spe's properly, would it be possible to emulate the EE and GS both simultaneously on the cell?

 

[bistromathics]

i wish my first thread were this good :'(

 

[jooey]

What does strike me as odd I that 40, 80, and 160 GB PS3s have the capability to make PS2 memory cards... Why is that?

Cuz you can still backup memory cards with the adapter.

 

[Esch]

C'mon Sony! Bring sexy back

 

[Strike]

:\

 

[Wollan]

[0044]Embodiments of the present invention may be used in emulation of any target system having a secondary processor that cannot modify its own instruction memory. Target systems include, but are not limited to general purpose computer systems and other programmable devices, such as video game console devices. By way of example FIG. 3A depicts a block diagram of an example of a target system 100 in the form of a game console device, a Sony Playstation.RTM.2. PlayStation is a registered trademark of Sony Computer Entertainment Inc. of Tokyo, Japan. In this example, the target system 100 is built around a main processor module 102 referred to as an emotion engine, a Graphic Synthesizer 104, an input/output (I/O) processor (IOP) 106 and a sound processor unit 108. The emotion engine 102 typically includes a CPU core, co-processors and a system clock and has an associated random access memory (RAM) 110. The emotion engine 102 may perform animation calculation, traverse a scene and convert it to a two-dimensional image that may be sent to the Graphic Synthesizer (GS) 104 for rasterization.

[0059]The graphics subsystem 220 may include a graphics processing unit (GPU) 222 and graphics memory 224. The graphics subsystem 220 may periodically output pixel data for an image from the graphics memory 224 to be displayed on the display device 226. The display device 226 may be any device capable of displaying visual information in response to a signal from the system 200, including CRT, LCD, plasma, and OLED displays. The graphics subsystem 220 may provide the display device 226 with an analog or digital signal. By way of example, the display device 226 may include a cathode ray tube (CRT) or flat panel screen that displays text, numerals, graphical symbols or images. The graphics memory 224 may include a display memory (e.g., a frame buffer) used for storing pixel data for each pixel of an output image. The graphics memory 224 may be integrated in the same device as the GPU 222, connected as a separate device with GPU 222, and/or implemented within the memory 202. Pixel data may be provided to the graphics memory 224 directly from the PPE 204 and or SPEs 206 including SPU1. Alternatively, the PPE 204 and/or SPEs 206 may provide the GPU 222 with data and/or instructions defining the desired output images, from which the GPU 222 may generate the pixel data of one or more output images. The data and/or instructions defining the desired output images may be stored in memory 202 and/or graphics memory 224. In an embodiment, the GPU 222 may be configured (e.g., by suitable programming or hardware configuration) with 3D rendering capabilities for generating pixel data for output images from instructions and data defining the geometry, lighting, shading, texturing, motion, and/or camera parameters for a scene. The GPU 222 may further include one or more programmable execution units capable of executing shader programs.

Not just Emotion Engine maybe?

 

[Mr. Wonderful]

i wish my first thread were this good :'(

Now the question is what is Sony doing with the GS?

 

[androvsky]

http://appft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...+Engine"&s2=Cell&OS="Emotion+Engine"+AND+Cell

Here's one that's about emulation enhancement. Filed September of 2008.

 

[HomerSimpson-Man]

God of War I, II & CoO via PSN before the God of War III release! Calling it now!

Spoiler

I will double dip if true!.

Wasn't there a survey a bit back that asked if people wanted God of War 1/2 as extras in the special edition release of God of War 3?

They would either have to recode it all for PS3, or emulate it.

 

[androvsky]

Not just Emotion Engine maybe?

Not necessarily. I read that as typical patent ass-covering, though I could easily be wrong. Btw, I found another one about emulation...

 

[Graphics Horse]

Old news. EE was always emulated through cell.

They need GS Emulation thru the cell or RSX and then were in business. This has existed since PAL launch of PS3

The article is misleading, the patent gives an example of the Target System as the entire PS2, not the EE.
Just a patent though..

 

[inner-G]

If they could emulate both on the cell, they could build it into a networked Bravia

:O

 

[JoJo13]

So this is pretty direct proof that Sony continues to work on proper PS2 backwards compatibility.

Notice how recent these filings are -- way, way after the 80 GB quasi-software/hardware PS3s were released. It wouldn't make sense to continue working on BC unless they were dedicated to it in the future.

In other words, they seem to be optimizing emulation of the EE which should, theoretically, free up more resources to tackle GS.

Well, this is great news. I just hope it comes out sooner rather than later.

PS2 backwards compatibility, a PS3 slim design, and a $299 price point would really do wonders for the console (both in terms of sales and in terms of library of games). One of the biggest things that sucks about the PSN right now is that there are no PS2 games. I own a PS3 that has BC, but the fact that there are PS3s out there that don't have it means that Sony can't support it on the store, which blows.

 

[Schrade]

If they could emulate both on the cell, they could build it into a networked Bravia

:O

Holy shit that would be awesome!

 

[JoJo13]

http://appft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...+Engine"&s2=Cell&OS="Emotion+Engine"+AND+Cell

Here's one that's about emulation enhancement. Filed September of 2008.

3. The emulation method according to claim 2, wherein enhancing the control signal augments the audio effect component and the video effect component of the control signal and generates the enhanced control signal that utilizes additional platform capabilities of the first video game platform.

[0067]As shown above, enhancement of existing signals and addition of new signals allow for an enhanced gaming experience for a user emulating a target system game in a host system 200. Such enhanced emulation according to the exemplary embodiments of the present invention enables the user to experience the advanced technological features of the host system 200 previously not available in the legacy target system 100.

What does this mean?

HD resolutions for PS2 games?

XMB overlay on PS2 games?

I'm not sure. Very vague terminology.

 

[HomerSimpson-Man]

What does this mean?

HD resolutions for PS2 games?

XMB overlay on PS2 games?

I'm not sure. Very vague terminology.

It's in some sort of legalnese moon language, very hard to decipher.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

So this is pretty direct proof that Sony continues to work on proper PS2 backwards compatibility.

Notice how recent these filings are -- way, way after the 80 GB quasi-software/hardware PS3s were released. It wouldn't make sense to continue working on BC unless they were dedicated to it in the future.

In other words, they seem to be optimizing emulation of the EE which should, theoretically, free up more resources to tackle GS.

Well, this is great news. I just hope it comes out sooner rather than later.

PS2 backwards compatibility, a PS3 slim design, and a $299 price point would really do wonders for the console (both in terms of sales and in terms of library of games). One of the biggest things that sucks about the PSN right now is that there are no PS2 games. I own a PS3 that has BC, but the fact that there are PS3s out there that don't have it means that Sony can't support it on the store, which blows.

This is assuming they can get everything done in a timely fashion. For all we know, this could be in preparation for a Cell-based PS4. It can take something several years to go from patent filing to actual implementation in a shipped form.

 

[Graphics Horse]

What does this mean?

HD resolutions for PS2 games?

Possibly, sounds like rewriting the GS opcodes for the RSX or that sort of thing.

Edit: Reading more, it seems like the Patent is mostly about efficient Vector Unit emulation

 

[jonabbey]

40nm RSX with built-in GS?

 

[tokkun]

Yeah, I updated my post, got caught up in the excitement when I saw the June 25, 2009 date. Still, Dec. 9, 2008 is reasonably recent (aka post Euro-PS3 launch).

That is just the patent filing date though. The actual engineering work may have been finished long before the patent was filed.

 

[Norml]

Would be great if true. I want a less power hungry PS3.

I just beat GOW2 on my 60GB

 

[Ranger X]

Well, it was written in the sky that sooner or later Sony would emulate PS2. I mean, there's a gold mine sleeping for them on PSN. They just dream to sell you PS2 games as soon as PS2 will slowdown enough in sales.

We might now bet for BC as soon as "PS3 slim" I guess.

.

 

[StuBurns]

That is just the patent filing date though. The actual engineering work may have been finished long before the patent was filed.

Indeed, this could be what was in the EE-less PS3s for the start.

 

[jonabbey]

Well, it was written in the sky that sooner or later Sony would emulate PS2. I mean, there's a gold mine sleeping for them on PSN. They just dream to sell you PS2 games as soon as PS2 will slowdown enough in sales.

We might now bet for BC as soon as "PS3 slim" I guess.

I surely hope so.

 

[A.R.K]

I dont understand the huge fucking fapping to play PS2 games on your PS3. After moving to next gen consoles its hard for me to play any games on my original xbox or PS2...they just look shit! So for those who just NEED the BC or else PS3 is fail, I ask whats the fucking big deal??? Of course it would be a nice thing to have but is it really that missed that some of you guys say things like 'no BC .. no sale' .. WTF seriously! Most won't even play PS2 games if this really did happen

 

[Kagari]

I surely hope so.

Me too. I want to pick up a slim once they release and having software emulation even somewhere down the road for it would be nice.

 

[JoJo13]

That is just the patent filing date though. The actual engineering work may have been finished long before the patent was filed.

Patents don't take that long to file, though. Isn't there some rule where you have to file a patent within 1 year of the conceived invention?

If so, that automatically means they've worked on it since well after the 80 GB SKUs (with EE emulation) released.

 

[p_xavier]

I dont understand the huge fucking fapping to play PS2 games on your PS3. After moving to next gen consoles its hard for me to play any games on my original xbox or PS2...they just look shit! So for those who just NEED the BC or else PS3 is fail, I ask whats the fucking big deal??? Of course it would be a nice thing to have but is it really that missed that some of you guys say things like 'no BC .. no sale' .. WTF seriously! Most won't even play PS2 games if this really did happen

Me it's a fucking big deal, I want to buy a spare one just in case mine breaks. No wires, unlimited memory cards, upscaling IS a big deal. Plus you can sell your old PS2 and save money.

 

[PC Gaijin]

Patent filings (or any legalese) always make my head hurt. I am going to re-read it later. Pretty interesting though. I am a little puzzled by what exactly is new in the patent. It reads like dynamic recompilation, and at first I thought the new part was that the tasks were split over multiple processors (the PPE and SPU0 and SPU1), but then the patent explicitly states that that is not what is new, and the scheme could be used on a single processor with multiple threads. :lol The only thing I am left with is that the "new" part is a scheme to efficiently emulate a system with a secondary processor that can't modify its own code (VU1 on the PS2) since self-modifying code throws a wrench into dynamic recompilation.

 

[Shins]

Uh-huh.

 

[NumberTwo]

'Bout damn time?

 

[Kasumi1970]

I dont understand the huge fucking fapping to play PS2 games on your PS3. After moving to next gen consoles its hard for me to play any games on my original xbox or PS2...they just look shit! So for those who just NEED the BC or else PS3 is fail, I ask whats the fucking big deal??? Of course it would be a nice thing to have but is it really that missed that some of you guys say things like 'no BC .. no sale' .. WTF seriously! Most won't even play PS2 games if this really did happen

I agree with you about the original PS2 games looking bad on the HD tvs, but the Xbox games no so much becuase most xbox games run at 480p and some run at 720P. Also the Xbox games that are BC on the 360, run at 720P and they all look beautiful. If Sony puts BC in the new slim PS3, and upscales them , the the older games would look good too. I would rebuy a ps3 if Sony adds BC to the new PS3 just to be able to play my older PS2 games upscaled, and to be able to play Sony's first party games. I have a question, you say you have an xbox, do you have the hd componet cables for that system. that helpe the looks of the games big time, with plan AV cables the games don't look good on HD, but with HD componet cables the games look great.

 

[jonabbey]

It's be a big fucking deal for Sony to be able to sell their PS2 titles on PSN.

If they expect the PS3 to stay around for ten years, that means a generation of kids who will not have owned a PS2 in the day. Being able to re-sell them the PS2 catalogue would be a big win.

 

[MidgarBlowedUp]

Wait, is this good news for Sony?

Quick, Xbots assemble!!!



And original PS2 games look great on my WEGA. I never understood how people said they didn't. Buy a better TV and get it calibrated properly then stop complaining. Better yet, run your 60GB PS3 through a video processor and enable 16XFSAA then run it back out to the TV.

 

[MWS Natural]

Nice! If PS3 slim has backwards compatibility it's Day 1 for me!

 

[MidgarBlowedUp]

I dont understand the huge fucking fapping to play PS2 games on your PS3. After moving to next gen consoles its hard for me to play any games on my original xbox or PS2...they just look shit! So for those who just NEED the BC or else PS3 is fail, I ask whats the fucking big deal??? Of course it would be a nice thing to have but is it really that missed that some of you guys say things like 'no BC .. no sale' .. WTF seriously! Most won't even play PS2 games if this really did happen

Why do you think a new 60GB costs between $500 and $2000 on Amazon?

 

[Fafalada]

Does anyone know what specifically makes the GS so hard to emulate for the PS3?

Yes

 

[Ranger X]

Me too. I want to pick up a slim once they release and having software emulation even somewhere down the road for it would be nice.

I'd buy one just for the inevitable fact that my launch 60gig will run its course someday

.

 

[SappYoda]

 

[Prezhulio]

we saw these diagrams (i think) and explanation of EE emulation sometime last year. like everyone else said, without GS emulation (in which there is a gigantic hurdle in some vertex shader output or something) or inclusion of GS chip it's pointless. i wish someone could find the old thread from around GDC last year, or maybe it was some big PS exclusive release party/line (mgs4?) where someone ran into a guy who works on the FW updates and they explained why the GS isn't emulated easily.

 

[Red]

If this means the PS3 is backwards compatible again, it's fanfuckingtastic news.