• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Kotaku says: SEGA wanted Dreamcast in original Xbox

Diablohead said:
Heard of this before, forget where. It would have been a lol moment back then but I kind of wish it happened somehow.

Yeah, this isn't new. The news was out there at the time that MS was thinking of buying Sega, or Sega of America, or something like that, and that Xbox might be DC compatible. It's covered in the SegaBase history of Sega series here, for example: http://www.goodcowfilms.com/farm/games/www.eidolons-inn.net/segabase/index-segadchistory2.html

Some different (or just more?) reasons for why it didn't work out, but the end result is the same, Sega and MS just couldn't quite work out a deal and it collapsed. But yeah, the real question is, would Sega have ended up better off or worse off if they had done this? It'd definitely have been interesting to see,

Anyway, in the aforementioned article, he had this to say...

A strange courtship

One of the most interesting events to watch during March 2000 was the under-the-table offer by Microsoft to buy out Sega of America. The reason was pretty obvious. Microsoft wanted Sega's expertise and technical ability to buck up its own XBox project. Speculators were even surmising that such a move would, in effect, turn XBox into "Dreamcast 2," since Sega probably didn't have enough money left to release a successor console. According to several independent reports reports, promising initial talks between Sega and Microsoft quickly broke down over two key issues: Dreamcast back-compatability and the Windows operating system. Sega wanted XBox to be back-compatible with Dreamcast if it was to have any say in XBox hardware development. This Microsoft refused to permit, and Sega reportedly balked at the high cost of making new Dreamcast titles compatible with the evolving XBox standard. Also, Sega did not want to have to be constrained to Microsoft's requirement that all videogame console development be done under the bloatware environment of Windows. Even WindowsCE was rather hefty for its claimed compactness, and that was the prime reason why Sega preferred to stick to its own proprietary APIs insofar as Dreamcast development was concerned. The whole affair began and ended in a matter of days, but it market an interesting juncture in the unusual relationship between the world's best known arcade videogame manufacturer and the world's largest software company. The move reportedly brought a temporary halt to Microsoft's XBox plans, but at the same time it left Sega free and clear on the 128-bit market for a little while longer. Sega was quite willing to work with Microsoft and would do so again, but in this case the asking price was just too high. In retrospect, the failure of the deal may have had something to do with the pulling of the planned ports of several popular PC entertainment titles by Microsoft on the Dreamcast, but Sega didn't mind the loss. It now had more than enough Dreamcast titles released or in the development pipeline to make up for their absence, anyway.

On 10 March 2000, Microsoft's Bill Gates officially unveiled the XBox. "Building on our strengths as a software company," Gates said during the official press briefing, "Microsoft has developed XBox which will offer game developers a powerful platform and game enthusiasts an incredible experience. We want XBox to be the platform of choice for the best and most creative game developers in the world." XBox was a DirectX/PC based videogame console running on an Intel Pentium III 733 MHz CPU, based on an nVidia G-Force derived graphics chipset. It had three times the horsepower of Sony's PlayStation 2; in fact, it was far and away the most powerful entry into the 128/256-bit nexgen wave, outclassing all other consoles in every category. XBox was slated to hit the videogame market in the fall of 2001 and had the support of practically every major Western third-party software vendor and a fair number of prominent Japanese ones. Microsoft announced a US$250 million ad campaign designed to promte its impending X-Box videogame console - a figure that made every other console vendor blanch in shock. SegaWeb's Craig Hansen was quick to quip, "Bill Gates is cursing both heaven and hell that he has no one like Yu Suzuki in XBox's corner," due to the fact that it did not appear that all that many quality software titles would be available for the new console's launch; however, a few days later, however, MCV reported that merger talks between Sega and Microsoft have not broken off as previously reported, but were quietly continuing "along different lines." As the weeks and months rolled on and XBox news continued to build steam, rumors begin to surface that Sega and Microsoft were close to a mutual agreement regarding their respective consoles. Sega was rumored to have begun software development for XBox, and in exchange Microsoft was going to include some form of Dreamcast back-compatability with its new überconsole.

Two months later, on 25 May 2000, Sega's Isao Okawa set the record straight. Microsoft was not playing a major role in Sega's Dreamcast plans, including online gameplay, and never would. In response to questions, he also confirmed that Sega was asked to help Microsoft develop XBox. The deal fell through due to "mutual disagreements." Concerning the future of Sega and Microsoft's relationship regarding the Dreamcast, Okawa stated that "... Sega will not enlist the help of Microsoft. We're done with them." Many industry insiders promptly comment that Microsoft more or less used Sega and the Dreamcast as a proving ground for certain early XBox ideas and that Sega did not like this fact once the intrigue was discovered; however, Sega seemed to have realized the potential profits of software development for Microsoft's new console and decided to swallow its pride. In the light of what was to come for Dreamcast, it seems to have been a prudent move.

The SegaBase articles are from years ago, remember. They aren't recent.
 

Bleepey

Member
I swear the Dreamcast was the best swansong of all time. A truly great farewell to gamers and this is from someone who was a hardcore Nintendo fan.
 

TheSeks

Blinded by the luminous glory that is David Bowie's physical manifestation.
X-box is basically Dreamcast 2.0.

Having Dreamcast BC would've been fucking awesome. Too bad MS are morons when it comes to online play. :|
 
I think I'd of been most interested to see how PSO would have turned out. True Fantasy Live never materialized, so PSO could have been the MMO game Microsoft backed and advertised for. They could have brought over the existing DC users with backwards compability and merged those users with an xbox edition of the game.

I think the most significant move could have been if Microsoft decided to avoid the monthly subscription fee and have the online costs covered by Live subscriptions.
 

hteng

Banned
Dreamcast is probably the console that left the biggest footprint in console history, it was revolutionary that time with it's online capabilities and had better graphics than the PS2. Shame it didn't make it to the xbox
 

LaneDS

Member
Wait, is the article suggesting Bill Gates donated nearly a billion dollars out of his own personal funds to keep Sega afloat? Or someone else? I found that both unclear and kind of ridiculous, regardless of who was doing the donating. I know it's Kotaku and all, but is there a source for that piece of information?
 

Shard

XBLAnnoyance
gofreak said:
I'm a bit confused. Is there a link between 'DC Digital' titles and their PC games?

I took from that they were considering putting DC titles out on the digital stores...not sure if or how the PC ones are any more likely to come.

Appreantly there is if Sonic Adventure XBLA is anything to go by.
 
LaneDS said:
Wait, is the article suggesting Bill Gates donated nearly a billion dollars out of his own personal funds to keep Sega afloat? Or someone else? I found that both unclear and kind of ridiculous, regardless of who was doing the donating. I know it's Kotaku and all, but is there a source for that piece of information?

Isao Okawa, Chairman of Sega, donated that money.
 

Vormund

Member
Yeah I remember hearing this a long time ago also.

It wouldn't have been that hard to implement, I think DC on a chip was ready to go in those Pace set top boxes.

That said, I'm not sure if it would have done any good for either party and feel Sega should have gone Xbox exclusive regardless. They've gone to shit since going 3rd party, they were better focusing on one console. Even better when MS takes the hit on the console and not yourself.
 

benjipwns

Banned
A Black Falcon said:
Yeah, this isn't new.
Yay, I was reading the thread hoping somebody else answered, didn't want to track anything down. This was kinda "common news" back in the day.
jamesinclair said:
In 2001, Sega charged for DC online play
No, it didn't. They offered their own ISP but if you had one you didn't have to pay extra. At least not with any of the titles I played online back then or their web browser.

How lag free some of the titles were on poor connections of the day makes me hate some games today that can barely keep up on connections exponentially faster.
 
Funny that this thread would appear when I have been playing the ever-living hell out of Jet Set Radio Future for the past couple days. Sure would be nice to own a machine that could play both games... :(

benjipwns said:
No, it didn't. They offered their own ISP but if you had one you didn't have to pay extra. At least not with any of the titles I played online back then or their web browser.
There were barely any supported ISPs, though. It was pretty much Seganet, AT&T and maybe one or two others; Netzero and AOL certainly weren't supported, I know that for sure.
 

benjipwns

Banned
I AM JOHN! said:
There were barely any supported ISPs, though. It was pretty much Seganet, AT&T and maybe one or two others; Netzero and AOL certainly weren't supported, I know that for sure.
All three ISPs I had and used over the period worked. NetZero and AOL didn't work because they required their software to connect to. Ones that just let you dial or otherwise connect were all good to go. (MichNet was always the best for me though.)
 
benjipwns said:
All three ISPs I had and used over the period worked. NetZero and AOL didn't work because they required their software to connect to. Ones that just let you dial or otherwise connect were all good to go. (MichNet was always the best for me though.)
NetZero worked if you knew how, there were guides on it!
 

Freshmaker

I am Korean.
I AM JOHN! said:
There were barely any supported ISPs, though. It was pretty much Seganet, AT&T and maybe one or two others; Netzero and AOL certainly weren't supported, I know that for sure.
I signed on through my school's dialup connection. It wasn't that hard to get most ISP's working.

Phantasy Star Online did charge tho.
 
Freshmaker said:
I signed on through my school's dialup connection. It wasn't that hard to get most ISP's working.

Phantasy Star Online did charge tho.

Only version 2, the first version was free. And yeah, lots of IPs were supported, I think. It was mostly just AOL and free ones that were harder to get working I believe...
 

Fox the Sly

Member
The free ones required you to use a little program to decrypt the ISP password. I used NetZero a lot when it was free. AOL and CompuServe (I think) were about the only ones that didn't work.
 

djtiesto

is beloved, despite what anyone might say
Well, most of the Xbox 1 games I thought worth owning were SEGA games... still an interesting "what if?" situation to ponder.
 

levious

That throwing stick stunt of yours has boomeranged on us.
I AM JOHN! said:
There were barely any supported ISPs, though. It was pretty much Seganet, AT&T and maybe one or two others; Netzero and AOL certainly weren't supported, I know that for sure.


many more than that, only software or ad supported ISPs had problems.
 
Why For? said:
Please be a firmware update Please be a firmware update Please be a firmware update Please be a firmware update Please be a firmware update Please be a firmware update Please be a firmware update Please be a firmware update Please be a firmware update Please be a firmware update Please be a firmware update Please be a firmware update Please be a firmware update Please be a firmware update Please be a firmware update Please be a firmware update Please be a firmware update Please be a firmware update Please be a firmware update Please be a firmware update Please be a firmware update Please be a firmware update Please be a firmware update Please be a firmware update Please be a firmware update Please be a firmware update Please be a firmware update Please be a firmware update Please be a firmware update Please be a firmware update Please be a firmware update Please be a firmware update Please be a firmware update Please be a firmware update Please be a firmware update Please be a firmware update Please be a firmware update Please be a firmware update Please be a firmware update Please be a firmware update Please be a firmware update Please be a firmware update

Isn't GD-ROM a proprietary media?
 
Furukawa says that Okawa negotiated with Gates himself, but he was unable to work out a deal to pass on the Dreamcast customers. Before Okawa, Furukawa adds, he gave over roughly US$ 900 million from his personal fortune to SEGA in order to keep the company afloat.
Wow. Thats some serious dedication to your company. I wonder if any top executives today would do that.
 

drizzle

Axel Hertz
RobertM said:
CDs work just as well.
Only on the oldest Dreamcast. The last batch didn't have the ability to boot from CDs (which was used oficially only for extra disks on games, mostly japanese games).
 
I've said since the 360 launch that I'd pay for a Dreamcast emulator on the 360 (or PS3, or Wii even) that would allow me to put my original Dreamcast discs in the machine and play. Just like Xbox 1 games.

They could still release the XBLA versions with achievements for people who don't have the original discs and make money from them, too. However, as someone just mentioned, I don't think the 360 could read a GD-ROM properly. Probably just get that "This is a Dreamcast disc" message.

I bought an original Xbox for Dead Or Alive 3, Project Gotham Racing and Jet Set Radio Future. All sequels to fantastic Dreamcast games. My faith was vindicated when Sega released Panzer Dragoon Orta.

When Sega first announced they were becoming a software company it was quite clear that their future Dreamcast projects moved to the Xbox. Their recent releases got enhanced ports to Gamecube (Super Monkey Ball would have been a Dreamcast game) and their most popular franchises were moved to the PS2.

I always wondered why Sega spread themselves out across the 3 platform holders instead of latching on to one of them specifically. Their Xbox exclusive content was of a very high quality as was Virtua Fighter 4 on PS2 and Super Monkey Ball on Gamecube. After that they switched to multiplatform releases and we ended up with botched Sonic games and a sequel to Headhunter that fell short of the original by quite a bit (although it's still not a bad game).

As a Sega fan, I had a choice when the Dreamcast died with where to go. I chose the Xbox because of Sega games, not Halo. Then I bought a Gamecube later for Resident Evil games, not Mario. I've never bought a PS2, probably because it killed my beloved Dreamcast!
Actually, it was because of the poor PAL conversions of a lot of big titles. After playing so many Dreamcast games in 60hz I had a real issue with the big borders and slower gameplay the PS2 got stuck with. Although this was fixed in later titles, it was long after I'd made my decision.
 

Buggy Loop

Member
I remember this rumor from way back then.

Microsoft didn't want an internet connection for the Dreamcast titles and negotiations fell apart

Jesus fuck, another move that cockblocks something with GREAT possibilities just because its not Live shit.
 
A Black Falcon said:
Only version 2, the first version was free. And yeah, lots of IPs were supported, I think. It was mostly just AOL and free ones that were harder to get working I believe...
PSo v1 and v2 were both free in europe but at the time we had to pay like 1p a minute on dialup, There were ways around it but I never did get it working for free internet.

History: I dislocated my knee at work and had months off sitting at home, I brought PSO about a week or two before the accident so I use to play it most of the day and then hop on to the internet post 6pm when it was cheap rate.

Needless to say nearly all of my sick pay went on telephone bills :lol
 

I_D

Member
That's an interesting thing to think about...

Pros for Sega:
-Keeping their jobs
-Getting paid
-Large install base

Cons for Sega:
-Taking orders from somebody else

Pros for MS:
-Incredibly huge lineup of franchises to use
-Major foothold in the Japanese market
-Potential foothold in the handheld market
-A huge amount of brand new workers with lots of experience to work for you
-Making dial-up games run on a broadband system would have been easy

Cons for MS:
-DC piracy would be hard to compete with
-Fuckton of workers with a lot of bad decisions occurring in the recent past to work for you



And I'm sure there are more to add to each list. In terms of benefits, though, it seems like it would have been a good merger.

Sega was amazingly ahead of their time. If the companies had merged, the Xbox360 would have been incredible.
 

McLovin

Member
I never got the original xbox. Hell if this happened I would have jumped on back then. I would probably have been more into the 360 now if it happened like that. Dumb move on MS's part.
 

Acosta

Member
Maybe the history of Microsoft in Japan would have been different accepting a close relationship with a Japanese company like Sega. Sega could have taken Xbox under its wing ans "their" console in Japan and act as "Microsoft Japan" to deal with other companies, it would have been interesting to watch.
 

meppi

Member
This is as old as the death of the Dreamcast itself.

Not only was the DC supposed to be incorporated into the XBox but there were several other plans about incorporating it into set-top boxes and even into PC cards.
 

Dunlop

Member
TheSeks said:
X-box is basically Dreamcast 2.0.

Having Dreamcast BC would've been fucking awesome. Too bad MS are morons when it comes to online play. :|

Just to be absolutely clear, while Sega opened the door to online play it is because of the original XBOX LIVE that online integration is now a standard feature for every console from then until the end of time.

MS took a chance and put it's money where it's mouth is and now we reap the benefits

Great read OP
 
goldenpp72 said:
sega never did very well in japan aside the saturn though right?

The Dreamcast did very well in Japan, it still had games being made for it post-2004. Everywhere else bombed though by the onslaught of the PS2. Very interesting article. All this might explain Sega's big push of exclusives on the original Xbox with Jet Set Radio Future, Panzer Dragoon Orta, Sega GT, Shenmue 2, Crazy Taxi 3, etc.
 

RavenFox

Banned
hteng said:
Dreamcast is probably the console that left the biggest footprint in console history, it was revolutionary that time with it's online capabilities and had better graphics than the PS2. Shame it didn't make it to the xbox
Agree on everything but better graphics that the PS2.
Remember your tuned 76.5 on your FM dial, This is R I D G E FM broadcasting live from RidgeCity.
 
I'm not gonna lie. I really wish SEGA (the old SEGA) still made hardware. I really miss their "form" of gaming and their brillant hardware designs. Ever since SEGA left I always felt that there was a hole left in the console space that wasn't filled (and no Microsoft hasn't come close to filling it).

cjelly said:
Sega clinging on to a piece of hardware they shat on themselves.

Pathetic.

This.

Article from Black Falcon said:
Concerning the future of Sega and Microsoft's relationship regarding the Dreamcast, Okawa stated that "... Sega will not enlist the help of Microsoft. We're done with them." Many industry insiders promptly comment that Microsoft more or less used Sega and the Dreamcast as a proving ground for certain early XBox ideas and that Sega did not like this fact once the intrigue was discovered; however, Sega seemed to have realized the potential profits of software development for Microsoft's new console and decided to swallow its pride. In the light of what was to come for Dreamcast, it seems to have been a prudent move.



Wasn't this the real reason why Microsoft even had the meetings with SEGA? Just to look into their fruits of labor and use them. I mean it's not like it isn't in the company's nature. Also I can't imagine how striking deals with a console maker who (with one exception) made nothing but failed consoles can be much of a help.

hteng said:
had better graphics than the PS2.
:lol What's next? Are the Gamecube fans going to walk in here claiming that the Gamecube was really more powerful than the Xbox?

I AM JOHN! said:
Someone obviously does not own a VGA box.

That has nothing to do with anything.
 

Coeliacus

Member
hteng said:
Dreamcast is probably the console that left the biggest footprint in console history
Those are some very rosey coloured specs you're wearing there. I'd guess that the Dreamcast will be remembered more like a more ambitious Gamecube.
 

thetrin

Hail, peons, for I have come as ambassador from the great and bountiful Blueberry Butt Explosion
Isn't this old news? Dreamcast in the Xbox was a rumor around the time the system was first announced.
 
riceandbeans said:
The Dreamcast did very well in Japan, it still had games being made for it post-2004. Everywhere else bombed though by the onslaught of the PS2. Very interesting article. All this might explain Sega's big push of exclusives on the original Xbox with Jet Set Radio Future, Panzer Dragoon Orta, Sega GT, Shenmue 2, Crazy Taxi 3, etc.

Actually, the Dreamcast did awfully in Japan. Its market share was mid single digits at best at its height. In Japan, only Saturn was a success, all of their other systems were failures.

In the US, meanwhile, only the Genesis was a great success. And that system did do very well, tying or beating the SNES in the Americas as a whole (yes, greater analysis into the numbers has shown this) and selling probably 39-40 million systems worldwide... a number about four times larger than any of their other systems sold worldwide. Dreamcast did do much better than Saturn in the eyes of Western gamers though, and that counts for something for sure. But really, that's now why support stopped here but not in Japan in early 2002.

The reason that happened is because of the genres being released. Sega stopped developing for Dreamcast worldwide between February and March of 2002. After that, excepting Puyo Puyo Fever, all Dreamcast releases were third-party. Also, apart from a couple of fighting games and a few puzzle games, all of the releases were either visual novels ported from the PC or shmups ported from the Naomi arcade machine. That really is not an exaggeration. Look at all DC releases from after Sakura Taisen 4 (Sega's last first-party title apart from that incongrouous 2004 release of Piuyo Puyo Fever) to the end, and the ONLY titles released on the DC in Japan that are not (Naomi-port) shmups or (usually PC-port) visual novels are The King of Fighters 2001, The King of Fighters Kidou Senshi Gundam: Renpou vs. Zeon DX (Mobile Suit Gundam: Federation vs. Zeon, as it was titled in its US PS2 release), and Puyo Puyo Fever. Three games also came out in Europe after March, two of them titles that had come out in the US in 2001 and the third the Europe-exclusive Evil Twin.

That is, the DC was still "alive" in Japan after its Spring 2002 death because its tiny hardcore base was devoted enough to keep buying those shmups and visual novels, not because the system had actually succeeded in any way in the general market.

Flying_Phoenix said:
Wasn't this the real reason why Microsoft even had the meetings with SEGA? Just to look into their fruits of labor and use them. I mean it's not like it isn't in the company's nature. Also I can't imagine how striking deals with a console maker who (with one exception) made nothing but failed consoles can be much of a help.

Given that MS definitely has a history of doing things like that, yeah, I wouldn't be surprised at all if that's the real story.

drizzle said:
Only on the oldest Dreamcast. The last batch didn't have the ability to boot from CDs (which was used oficially only for extra disks on games, mostly japanese games).

I'm pretty sure that that last batch were only released in Japan. All American and European systems should be able to play CD-Rs if they are working properly, I believe.
 
Top Bottom