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[Fine Brothers video] Teens React to Free Speech
- Thread starter fantomena
- Start date
He was asked for "statistics or sources". He provided sources. Don't be pendantic.
theCalamity
Member
I think it's more that a lot of racists, sexists, and bigots try to hide under "free speech" as a way to shield their hate speech. It's not a simple disagreement. It's a disagreement on someone's existence. Also that the whole free speech issue only really comes up when people are trying to silence bigots, sexists and racists, but when they do it to others, nothing is said from the free speech defenders.
You're going to get people who go too far sometimes, but they aren't representative of the whole and it's not that huge of a trend.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
At least we can confirm whining that free speech is under attack is at the intellectual level of teenagers. That is it's the opinion of the underdeveloped.
Poor GRIMES
Banned
Huh? Are we really going to pretend that your intent in this thread is to not shit on liberals being overtly PC? I looked at your examples and you, not surprisingly, chose ones that immediately attacked "the SJWS" that perpetuated those "incidents" against people.
Again, asking for "statistics" and posting those statistics would need "sources" backing up those statistics as well. I've yet to see any numbers and I've yet to see you or the poster you're defending posting any. Now catch the tea on that
Free speech is already regulated by the law. But it goes beyond the law and that is the problem. Either against opinions or language itself. And the left has a long tradition for fighting for free speech, even the most disgusting versions of it. Chomsky and others were actually even more liberal than the law. So attacking the idea of free speech goes against ideals of the left not the right.
Well if the President talks about it and there are tons of articles and professors are making podcasts about it, there has to be something.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Some of you would be taken more seriously if you stood up for the free speech of minorities as well as the free speech targeted against them.
HiredN00bs
Member
Everyone is in some arrangement of bubbles. The key to progress is being a bubble buster. Conversation is a way to present new ideas and perspectives to people entrenched in harmful ideas. Everyone has the capacity to be rational, and if an idea is sufficiently compelling, it will stick with people, regardless of whether they accept it up front. I used to be a religious conservative, for example. I wasn't looking to become a secular liberal, but the compelling ideas from others I disagreed with me stuck and drove me to change.
Funny how you are coyly staying away from the big names that keep this a hot topic in the news like Milo, Richard Spencer and Coultier. It's easier to try and paint liberals as pushing down free speech when you don't actually use hate speech-mongers for your examples. You know, the ones that this is REALLY about. There is no national outcry trying to keep people like Christina Hoff Sommers from speaking at universities, thats not what this is about, but then again you probably already know this.
On the flip side I wonder how much you have gone to bat for people like Anita Sarkissian and the death threats and bomb threats she has gotten from all the GGers (which heavily cross overs with Alt-righters, ironic that huh?) and her freedom of speech.
theCalamity
Member
Are you saying that people shouldn't get any flak or pushback for whatever disgusting thing they might say?
i don't think there is something. Most of the people who are complaining about their freedom of speech just want to say hurtful things without consequence.
Michael F. Assbender
Banned
This is kind of an odd comment.
Whos speaking against minorities here? Whos refusing to defend them?
Such an odd comment.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
I imagine trokil's beef is with him constantly being called out for his anti-science opinions.
A Link to the Past
Banned
The point is that there's so much more concern in the media about the suppression of hate speech than there is the suppression of minority voices.
Have you never been in a BLM thread here?
Michael F. Assbender
Banned
Absolutely. But he referenced people in this thread and I havent seen examples of those people doing what he accused them of.
It just seemed like he was trying to silence dissent by tossing out claims of covert racism. Maybe Im wrong, but its the only way that comment makes sense in my head.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Considering there's major inequality still it should obviously be clear to any observant person that not nearly enough are defending minorities.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Yeah, my comment is going to take away people's right to post-_-
Its so strange to dismiss this entire subject when this very forum faced the same issues recently, [post=239047632]which Evillore himself brought up.[/post] Granted, its not exactly the same form of blunt satire as in that video, but the underlying issues are the same.
The people who are getting the most defended when it comes to free speech are those who have a history of saying bigoted things against minorities. It hardly ever applies to those who are vocal about minority issues and good luck if you label yourself a feminist or a social justice warrior, hardly anyone comes to their defense.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
What does this forum have to do with free speech?
Michael F. Assbender
Banned
True as that may be, it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
The poster made a specific claim about people in this thread and how they dont speak up for minorities. I didnt see any proof of that assertion, which made the comment stick out to me.
If there are examples of them refusing to stand up for minorities, Im more than happy to admit Im wrong. Otherwise, its a really odd comment.
Silencing dissent doesnt have to mean people lose the right to post. It could simply mean that people refuse to engage in the topic because they dont want to have claims of racism tossed at them based on literally zero evidence.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
If you think it's baseless, that's fine. Free speech and all
AdequateSubject
Member
The video description links to the site http://artists4america.org/ which is a project sponsored by Goldwater Institute, a conservative / libertarian think-tank.
Open debate more like, which i think this forum is for, without being cheaply shouted down instead of argued against. I think thats the core issue here, isnt it?
NoblesseOblige
Banned
If you spend any sort of time in threads dealing with inequality you would be able to parse many 'free speech' advocate posters appear to be missing.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
What value does open debate have with somebody who thinks a segment of people are sub human because of their skin color? Personally I struggle to imagine any sort of growth talking to somebody so blatantly ignorant.
Edit - sorry for double post. Phone f'ed up.
Michael F. Assbender
Banned
Or you could provide some kind of proof to back up what youre claiming.
Before I get tossed in with the racists here, let me say Im not saying racism isnt an issue. Im not defending racists. Racism is disgusting and wrong and absolutely a problem in America (and worldwide). Its everywhere, including the halls of power. I would never argue otherwise.
But to just toss that claim around at people because they disagree with you on the idea of what constitutes free speech or whatever just weakens your argument, in my opinion.
Edit: On second thought, perhaps youre more familiar with these other posters than I am. If you know for a fact theyre more apt to defend racists than minorities, I retract my comment. If not, I still think your claim weakens your argument. But Im not doing anything to help the issue by harping on this and I certainly cant claim to understand this issue from the point of view of a minority individual, so Ill drop it. Take care.
Trigonometrize.
Member
In Evilore's post it said no justifiable reason. So I don't see what a justifiable reason like thinking other races are subhuman has to do with anything.
MagnaderAlpha
Member
I don't doubt the video they watched was made with the intent to poke fun at liberal minded people, but seeing it, it also reflects, pretty much, what you are seeing on the opposite side with conservatives/right-wingers/Trump supporters.
- Failure to acknowledge truth
- Stifling that what they don't agree with (fact, "Fake Media", cherry-picking history)
- Rewarding/celebrating idiocy
I mean, the whole "You think you're so great with your math and your science and your facts..." "Feelings are more important than facts!", something you always hear regarding why Republicans vote the way they do. It isn't facts, or logic, they vote with feeling and irrationality.
"Stop violating me with your different opinions" can be used counter the point, as this is what conservatives have been saying every since people have been asking to be acknowledged and equal. That it's rocking the boat, not leaving well enough alone, a violation to the White status quo, the status quo of Christian Americans. "How dare they want rights, because it would mean we'd have to change doing things the way we've always done it!"
I hear them bring up how it is harder to bring up conservative view-points up in more liberal areas, like California, but isn't this the same if we go in the heart of red states? The teens bring up living in a bubble, only being exposed to what you are told without the freedom to seek out other points of view.... welcome to Smalltown, USA, especially in red states where they are making laws to MAKE people believe and think the way they WANT them to (they see it on tv, hear it on the radio and hear a sermon about it in church, which a LOT of those fuckin' churches have stakes in, politics). Missouri be damned because of it (still pissed off because of that Missouri Senate bill regarding women's rights).
Free speech is fine and dandy, as long as it doesn't advocate violence. But, just because you have freedom of speech doesn't mean you are free from consequences OR it doesn't mean people have to kiss your ass. This is something these teens probably aren't much aware of. Still wet behind the ears and still think Martin Luther King Jr was only about peaceful protests and didn't think violence was necessary (if need be) or had a purpose and reason. Give them some years and let the world beat down upon them, then lets see where they stand.
- Failure to acknowledge truth
- Stifling that what they don't agree with (fact, "Fake Media", cherry-picking history)
- Rewarding/celebrating idiocy
I mean, the whole "You think you're so great with your math and your science and your facts..." "Feelings are more important than facts!", something you always hear regarding why Republicans vote the way they do. It isn't facts, or logic, they vote with feeling and irrationality.
"Stop violating me with your different opinions" can be used counter the point, as this is what conservatives have been saying every since people have been asking to be acknowledged and equal. That it's rocking the boat, not leaving well enough alone, a violation to the White status quo, the status quo of Christian Americans. "How dare they want rights, because it would mean we'd have to change doing things the way we've always done it!"
I hear them bring up how it is harder to bring up conservative view-points up in more liberal areas, like California, but isn't this the same if we go in the heart of red states? The teens bring up living in a bubble, only being exposed to what you are told without the freedom to seek out other points of view.... welcome to Smalltown, USA, especially in red states where they are making laws to MAKE people believe and think the way they WANT them to (they see it on tv, hear it on the radio and hear a sermon about it in church, which a LOT of those fuckin' churches have stakes in, politics). Missouri be damned because of it (still pissed off because of that Missouri Senate bill regarding women's rights).
Free speech is fine and dandy, as long as it doesn't advocate violence. But, just because you have freedom of speech doesn't mean you are free from consequences OR it doesn't mean people have to kiss your ass. This is something these teens probably aren't much aware of. Still wet behind the ears and still think Martin Luther King Jr was only about peaceful protests and didn't think violence was necessary (if need be) or had a purpose and reason. Give them some years and let the world beat down upon them, then lets see where they stand.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
I'm not interested in arguing anything. I don't think the people I'm referring to can be reached, based on interactions I and other minorities have had with them in previous threads.
These people will never affect my life directly so I don't really care what they say, just offering advice on appearing more approachable.
Have a nice evening.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
My post isn't limited in scope to evillore's post but rather the concept of 'open debate' in its entirety.
I certainly agree that there is a subset of individuals who are beyond discussion, but it seems the problem is where people draw that line, when exactly the demonizing starts. You seem to be implying that the only individuals who get shouted down like this are those on the far right end of the spectrum, and if that was the case, there would be no problem. But i think we both know thats not the case. Even on this forum, there is evidence of that, which is why i linked you to that evillore post.
Fall Into The GAF
Member
I really love the description for Share Wars. It's like a bad Ayn Rand/Star Wars crossover fan fiction.
There were literally triple the amount of posters defending Pewdiepie's right to spread nazi bullshit than there are people defending BLM protests in any of the BLM threads. And they are not the same people.
In all these cases I see a very similar theme of people conflating consequences for spreading hate speech or saying or doing awful shit with actual censorship or throwing someone in jail. People literally still do not understand the definition of free speech, either through ignorance or selective ignorance.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
I don't believe anybody gets 'shouted down' on here. This isn't a public forum. I have been dogpiled and yes even banned here before. Not once did I feel my speech was being infringed upon or I was being oppressed for my opinion.
You could say the same thing about vaccines causing autism, but that's just as stupid. Bullshit and relatively rare trends get sensationalized all the time. Safe spaces and trigger warnings are another example -- the right thinks it's the new norm, but actual statistics show it is practically not a thing.
Ok, Im glad you feel that way, but it happened. This isnt a matter of believing.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
What is the 'it' exactly?
Razorback
Member
Agreed, there's a lot of friendly fire going on lately. I don't believe anyone here thinks there's anything of value to be had from a conversation with Milo Yiannopoulos or Richard Spencer, but I often see other sensible people like Sam Harris or Maajid Nawaz being thrown under the same bus.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Have a hard time calling Sam Harris sensible with some the sexist remarks he has made. I know next to nothing about nawaz though so I avoid commenting on those.
Dude, how much hand-holding do you need here really? The "shouting down" happened, the stifling of debate, which is at the core of that satirical video, which this thread in turn is about.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Do you think the video they made the kids watch was good?
An old school southern redneck, of all people, once taught me the difference between someone who thinks they're right, and someone who "knows" they're right.
Razorback
Member
My point is that he's not a white supremacist. Some people you draw the line and say they are a lost cause, that's fine. Events like the one at the Evergreen College might be rare and statistically irrelevant as some say, but If someone like Sam Harris is seen as not even being worth talking to, then I believe the left has serious problems that are worth addressing.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Just wanted clarrification so I know I was on the same page. You know, what people seek for in an open debate? Are you now opposing that idea because it inconveniences you?
In any case my response is so what? Not everything that can be debated is worth debating. Such as climate change deniers. All they do is muddle a more important conversation. The debate should be on how to solve it, not whether it is a thing.
Well I wouldn't call him a white supremacist and honestly don't recall ever seeing someone else say that either. It's usually islamsphobe isn't it? And I think there are more valuable people to listen to than that who cover the same material as him but without an indoctrination into prejudice.
soundscream
Member
Thats a real BS video there. Im sure the person who made has really great ideas and isnt biased at all.
Muffin1611
Banned
Or that time when he said any Muslim or even people who look Muslim (whatever the hell that means) should be profiled. That quote is still on his website.
What kind of a leap is that? It annoyed me that you were playing coy, and because of that, suddenly it was *i* who was against open debate all along? Are we suddenly in a bad M.Night Shyamalan movie?
But it wasnt just climate change deniers, it wasnt just super racists, it was, non-extreme, normal, contributing people too, thats the entire point. I already adressed it, and linked you to evillores post which adresses it. Its the second time now you just completely fly by the point and start constructing these strawmen, when there is solid evidence that the phenomenon of suppressing legitimate debate is right here, even on this forum.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Well
Uh
That's a bad video
On both accounts
One, taking a satirical video, and two, trying to have a serious conversation on modern happenings based on that satirical video.
That's uh, that's a disaster in wait.
Uh
That's a bad video
On both accounts
One, taking a satirical video, and two, trying to have a serious conversation on modern happenings based on that satirical video.
That's uh, that's a disaster in wait.