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Singing & Vocalism OT

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FelixOrion

Poet Centuriate
I've always had a question about this type of singing.

How long can men sing like this before their voices give out completely? It seems so painful.

Any older men singing this way? Documentation on the style? I'm fascinated...

It depends. There are a few teachers that teach how to use techniques that avoid damage as best they can, but as Mumei said, a lot is just if the users have the natural affinity for it.

As for older men, it's harder to say. This kind of singing has really only existed since the 80's so you're not gonna find 80 year olds just yet, and even then the genre is largely a younger man's game, but there are older vocalists. George "Corpsegrinder" Fisher (Cannibal Corpse) is 43, Chris Barnes (ex-Cannibal Corpse, Six Feet Under) is 46, Glen Benton (Decide) is 45, Attila Csihar (Mayhem) is 41, and Paul Speckmann (Master) is 49. I'm sure there are older ones, but I'm sure that you won't find many older than them simply because the style is too young to really have old vocalists.

I would suggest going on YouTube and looking up videos that show the vocalists for some of the bands I've mentioned recording in the studio. That may give you an idea on the technique of it all. I think they may change up their style to be a little more safe for live shows, but I'm not 100% on that. And they do care about their health and throats; I just saw video of George "Corpsegrinder" Fisher in the studio and they were having him soak his throat in this machine that made a fine wet mist to loosen his chords safely.

And also, there are a small handful of women who can do this singing too; Laura Nichol (Light This City) and Angela Gossow (Arch Enemy) are the biggest examples of female harsh vocalists.

Mumei said:
Hm, well. I think you have to remember some things:

1. This genre does not necessarily punish harsher and more strained vocals; this means that a singer can get progressively harsher and more strained for a very long time without being punished (e.g. people stop listening to him) for it.
2. I think that because this sort of singing tends to be very harsh, it selects for people who have more endurance and ability to take it; this is why you don't see many "God, he got nodules in a month of singing like this and couldn't sing anymore"; those people basically get weeded out before you'd even hear of them.
3. Related, different people have different levels of abuse they can take, and this is obviously true of women as well. Jennifer Holliday has been screaming, growling, and hollering for going on twenty years, and while you can hear and see the toll it has taken (and she's growling even more these days to compensate for it), her voice is obviously still pretty damn resilient. People with larger and thicker vocal folds naturally have more ability to take abuse, and men's folds are about a third larger (on average) than women's are. And some people simply recover better from short term vocal abuse; this ultimately means that some people's voices are able to handle stuff that would ruin another singer's voice in a month.
4. That said, I know from my time on other forums that there are quite a few men who begin singing like this, and then they progressively seem to lose range and tonal quality as time goes on.

Is that how it is produced? I really didn't know how it was produced, and I can't produe a gravelly tone even when speaking so I can't try it to see if I can feel where it is coming from.

I think a big thing is that a lot of these men go into it knowing that they probably aren't great clean singers and don't mind any loss in clean singing ability, they sorta go all or nothing on harsh vocals mainly. As I've been thinking about it, some cases the eventual deterioration and permanent raspy-ness has help some clean metal singers sound better, imo, such as James Hetfield (Metallica) and Dave Mustaine (Megadeth).

As someone who has a somewhat raspy, gravelly bass/baritone voice already, I get my gravel from low in throat/chest. I think I'm using my false vocal folds but I'm not sure on that. I know the harsh vocals we are discussing use them a lot.
 

Xun

Member
Great thread!

Subscribed.

Oh, absolutely. I mean, I tend to prefer clean and at least mostly-technically-correct singing, but different genres call for different things (even things that aren't necessarily the healthiest production), and basically everything that isn't opera is going to call for technique that is below the "optimal" level of breath support and resonance. I think talking about singers who do incredible things with their voices (e.g. Robert Plant's voice only held out for a prime of about four years with all the abuse he gave it (and he quickly ruined his second prime post-surgery by doing exactly what he did before :D), but what a prime it was!) is perfectly fine.
It's a shame Plant treated his voice the way he did, because in his prime he was fucking phenomenal.

Although he's had some great songs throughout his career, the work he did on the first 5 Zeppelin albums is near perfect.

Anyway I've been trying to persuade my bandmate to take better care of his voice, especially since his voice is very much like Jeff Buckley.
 

FreeMufasa

Junior Member
You just need someone to teach you how to activate your vocal muscles and diaphragm properly. Oh and they need perfect pitch ears.

Very rare unless you know what you are doing because you need to unteach bad habits and train atrophied muscles.

Like if you just youtube "singing lessons", buy a book, or just start singing everyday at home then I would say 1% chance.

Even if you find a good teacher - 10,000 hour rule is probably a good barometer.

Wow, it's actully possible? Thanks Shira!
 

3phemeral

Member
Hey, Mumei, I wanted you to check this out. It's Mariah at a recent concert belting, but seemingly unintentionally transitioning between whistle and chest. Now, this has happened before, namely her American Idol Performance of Bye, Bye; and this performance of Fly Like A Bird, but I thought it was an audio problem. I recall someone theorizing that it had to do with severely damaged vocals allowing air to escape in two places at once due to weakened folds. I don't even know if that's possible.

The difference with this clip is that the whistles are transitioned to, while on AI performance and FLAB occur concurrently with the belt.

What do you make of it?
 
Hey, Mumei, I wanted you to check this out. It's Mariah at a recent concert belting, but seemingly unintentionally transitioning between whistle and chest. Now, this has happened before, namely her American Idol Performance of Bye, Bye; and this performance of Fly Like A Bird, but I thought it was an audio problem. I recall someone theorizing that it had to do with severely damaged vocals allowing air to escape in two places at once due to weakened folds. I don't even know if that's possible.

The difference with this clip is that the whistles are transitioned to, while on AI performance and FLAB occur concurrently with the belt.

What do you make of it?
Wow. I know nothing of the technical reasons behind it, but that's freaky.

I thought it might just have been her voice cracking, but it actually sounds...clean?
 

jb1234

Member
Oh, absolutely. I mean, I tend to prefer clean and at least mostly-technically-correct singing, but different genres call for different things (even things that aren't necessarily the healthiest production), and basically everything that isn't opera is going to call for technique that is below the "optimal" level of breath support and resonance.

I've been working with opera singers for so long that I can't stand listening to pop singers any more. I'm acutely aware of all the shortcuts they're taking vocally (and not just because they have a microphone to cheat with).
 

3phemeral

Member
Wow. I know nothing of the technical reasons behind it, but that's freaky.

I thought it might just have been her voice cracking, but it actually sounds...clean?

Precisely. The more recent clip seems controlled to a degree, in that it's not a crack or an ugly note, but I also believe she didn't plan it out that way.

The other clips are obviously messy and strange, so I've no clue.
 
How in the hell did Kelly leave "Lies" off her cds?

Wow.
I know. :(

Everyone is pushing her to go Country, but I think that sort of bluesy Southern rock is where her voice fits most naturally. I guess we'll see what happens after her contract is up (a Christmas album and then a Pop album and then she's done with RCA, iirc).
 

Mumei

Member
For anyone still interested in the discussion about growl vocalizations, I asked BZBlaner if he knew anything about it and he said he an article on his university database last year called Aggressiveness of the Growl-Like Timbre: Acoustic Characteristics, Musical Implications, and Biomechanical Mechanisms And I read before being provided this that in order to growl healthily, having solid breath support and a neutral larynx helps to prevent the throat from closing and the folds tensing unnecessarily in the midst of the growl.

I also got my copy of Bel Canto: A History of Vocal Pedagogy by James Stark which is absolutely fascinating. For instance, on belting:

Bel Canto said:
Belting takes place in both male and female singers when the chest voice is carried beyond the point where it would ordinarily switch registers, at about E4 (330 Hz). AT this point the singer allows the larynx to rise, thereby raising F1 to follow H2. The vowels are not darkened as they would be in covered singing. Belting requires a large closed quotient and increased subglottal pressure. All this requires high effort and muscle rigidity which often results in a tone without vibrato, or one in which vibrato only begins toward the end of the duration of the note in what is sometimes called a 'vibrato crescendo.' Schutte and D.G. Miller offer this definition of belting: 'Belting is a manner of loud singing that is characterized by a consistent use of "chest" register (>50% closed phase of glottis) in a range in which larynx elevation is necessary to match the first formant with the second harmonic on open (high F1) vowels' (Schutte and D.G. Miller 1993, 142). In male voice, belting is distinguished from covering primarily by the high position of the larynx. If the singer were to belt a high note, and then lower the larynx and expand the pharynx, he would achieve a covered tone. In either covering or belting, the chest register is extended upwards beyond its normal limits. In the female voice, belting takes place if the chest voice is carried up into the range usually referred to as the middle register. Many belters would be surprised to know how close they come to an operatic technique. Like covered singing, belting is often considered hazardous, and for those who do not execute it skillfully it probably is. However, as with covered singing, there are famous belters who have enjoyed long careers without vocal injury. More research is needed to determine precisely what is hazardous and what is not. There are probably some important differences between 'good' and 'bad' belting. As well, there may be individual differences in singers regarding vocal hardiness. It would be useful if these factors could be identified and measured before making wholesale condemnations of vigorous singing techniques.

(Incidentally F1 and H2 should have subscript 1 and 2; I don't know how to do that. :x)

Oh, and I think it is important to differentiate between allowing the larynx to rise as it naturally will when belting and pulling the larynx up so that the throat closes up (for anyone who watched the video on larynx position).

Hey, Mumei, I wanted you to check this out. It's Mariah at a recent concert belting, but seemingly unintentionally transitioning between whistle and chest. Now, this has happened before, namely her American Idol Performance of Bye, Bye; and this performance of Fly Like A Bird, but I thought it was an audio problem. I recall someone theorizing that it had to do with severely damaged vocals allowing air to escape in two places at once due to weakened folds. I don't even know if that's possible.

The difference with this clip is that the whistles are transitioned to, while on AI performance and FLAB occur concurrently with the belt.

What do you make of it?

You and your hard questions. I have no idea, though I will say that if you look at healthy vocal folds, they look like this:

ibogx3szWJFXB6.JPG


And vocal folds with nodules look like this:

ieJLC3XC33J1b.jpg


So "air escaping from two places at once" seems to make sense from that; it's basically one of the problems that nodules cause. I've heard that excessive whispering and airy vocalizations (which Mariah did from the beginning of her career and increased as time went on) are highly irritating to the vocal folds and can actually cause muscular weakness over time. But I have no idea how on Earth this could cause her to apparently simultaneously phonate in chest register and also sort of half-phonating in a weak whistle register (that is more 'air escaping from a leaky balloon' than whistle register, but still).

Are you sure that it isn't an audio problem?

I've been working with opera singers for so long that I can't stand listening to pop singers any more. I'm acutely aware of all the shortcuts they're taking vocally (and not just because they have a microphone to cheat with).

What else do you mean? The shortcuts I'm thinking of are all related to having a microphone for amplification, at least when I'm comparing good pop singers.
 

FelixOrion

Poet Centuriate
What else do you mean? The shortcuts I'm thinking of are all related to having a microphone for amplification, at least when I'm comparing good pop singers.

I know for harsh vocalists, some weaker ones will cup the their hands around their mouth and the microphone to get a lower, bass-ier growl but that's all I can think of too.
 

3phemeral

Member
For anyone still interested in the discussion about growl vocalizations, I asked BZBlaner if he knew anything about it and he said he an article on his university database last year called

I also got my copy of Bel Canto: A History of Vocal Pedagogy by James Stark which is absolutely fascinating. For instance, on belting:

Very fascinating stuff and really solidifies my belief that the voice is possibly the most difficult instrument to master. So many variables that make it such an imperfect instrument to control. I'll never understand why vocalists are put down for not playing an instrument, especially if they're a tremendously good singer.


ibogx3szWJFXB6.JPG


And vocal folds with nodules look like this:

ieJLC3XC33J1b.jpg

Thank you for the visual. That makes a lot of sense, if it is possible at all. I'm not sure how the folds would vibrate with nodes. I gather that if it is happening, it happens when she belts specifically because there's more pressure on her cords than normal, thus, when pushing them too far, excess air begins to pass through to the secondary passage, causing the additional sound.

If Mariah is being truthful in saying that she's used her vocal cords to her advantage (which I'm not entirely sure that's possible given how connected and smooth her transitions were in her prime), then I wonder if it's resulted in a sort of severely scar-laden nodule that's causing this "dual voiced" production. I wish she were more open about her vocal cords, but when you're as highly praised as she is, I guess you feel you lose a sense of value if the very thing you're known for is deteriorating as far as public awareness is concerned.

Speaking on that, I love Natalie Dessay's candidness about why she had to go through the operation.


Are you sure that it isn't an audio problem?

Not sure. I did find another video where the same thing is happening, but that could just mean it's the audio equipment. I'm lead to believe it isn't because it's happened on so many other performances during her last album.
 

Mumei

Member
Very fascinating stuff and really solidifies my belief that the voice is possibly the most difficult instrument to master. So many variables that make it such an imperfect instrument to control. I'll never understand why vocalists are put down for not playing an instrument, especially if they're a tremendously good singer.

Mmhmm. At the same time, of course, I don't think you have instrumentalists who seemingly popped fully formed out of Zeus' head the way some singers do. For instance, Streisand is an effectively untrained singer (aside from one lesson very early on), doesn't really think about her diaphragm or breathing, and doesn't even warm-up her voice (aside from solfège routines that a vocal coach gave to her) or do regular vocal exercises. It's absolutely mindboggling how naturally talented she is.

I'm about 70-some odd pages in now, and it is pretty fascinating stuff. If you're really interested I would strongly suggest plunking down the money for it. I really appreciate the explanations of concepts and the attempt at reconciling historical explanations with what we know to be scientifically true, in particular. And it's a nice overview of the vocal qualities associated with operatic singing (contrasted with vernacular singing (hooray, I know a new term for it now).

Thank you for the visual. That makes a lot of sense, if it is possible at all. I'm not sure how the folds would vibrate with nodes. I gather that if it is happening, it happens when she belts specifically because there's more pressure on her cords than normal, thus, when pushing them too far, excess air begins to pass through to the secondary passage, causing the additional sound.

Well, remember, this is the motion of the vocal folds (simplified animation, obviously) in chest voice:

Vocal_fold_animated.gif


Vocal nodules are essentially calluses on the vocal folds where the folds have banged into each other often enough (either due to unhealthy singing or perhaps even healthy singing without sufficient rest to recover) that the swelling hardens and becomes a callus. This means that even in the closed glottal phase, as shown in the earlier picture, it doesn't close completely. Simplifying a bit (mostly for my sake), the vocal folds are made to vibrate by breath pressure - and being partially opened is no barrier to that happening, as in the normal glottal cycle the opening is closed only for a short period of time (even in chest register, the standard is apparently ">50% closed phase of glottis"). It may cause other problems (a more aspirated quality, maybe, or a greater chance of cracking when sustaining a note), but obviously being able to vibrate is unaffected by nodules or else someone with nodules would be rendered incapable of speech at all)

If Mariah is being truthful in saying that she's used her vocal cords to her advantage (which I'm not entirely sure that's possible given how connected and smooth her transitions were in her prime), then I wonder if it's resulted in a sort of severely scar-laden nodule that's causing this "dual voiced" production. I wish she were more open about her vocal cords, but when you're as highly praised as she is, I guess you feel you lose a sense of value if the very thing you're known for is deteriorating as far as public awareness is concerned.

Important PSA: You're a shady dame using a video of Mariah in 2008 when her voice was bar none career-worst shape. You know from scouring Gold Coast videos that she sounds pretty great these days. ;)

I think you're over-fixating on these rare moments, though; you've essentially found moments of one phenomenon in 2008 (apparent simultaneous production in two registers, which simply makes no sense) and another in 2013 (cracking / accidentally sliding into a higher register) and I'm not sure this is a common enough occurrence that you can ascribe it to something that hasn't really changed: she's had nodules. If this were the issue, why have we heard this happen in only a handful of performances rather than more? If her nodules are playing a role, I'd guess it is just causing her to squeak somewhat in the midst of her belts or crack into falsetto.

Oh, and she has been somewhat candid about her nodules. I don't think she's ever stated that they've helped her, but she has said rather candidly that because she's had her nodules since childhood, she effectively uses them. I think you'd have to find out who her vocal doctor is and see if there is anything published to know what she might be referring to there, though.
 

3phemeral

Member
Mmhmm. At the same time, of course, I don't think you have instrumentalists who seemingly popped fully formed out of Zeus' head the way some singers do. For instance, Streisand is an effectively untrained singer (aside from one lesson very early on), doesn't really think about her diaphragm or breathing, and doesn't even warm-up her voice (aside from solfège routines that a vocal coach gave to her) or do regular vocal exercises. It's absolutely mindboggling how naturally talented she is.

Hrm... I agree to an extent. But then you have prodigies who teach themselves how to play numerous instruments
Flavor Flav, whodathunk?
. There will always be outliers for these things, but I'm mainly coming from the perspective that built instruments have a certain goal of musical perfection that's expected of their build quality, whereas vocalists don't have the advantage of knowing, only feeling. This, in my opinion, makes learning to use it more difficult than something you can visually teach by saying, "this is how to produce this note by applying pressure to this cord," etc.

I'm about 70-some odd pages in now, and it is pretty fascinating stuff. If you're really interested I would strongly suggest plunking down the money for it. I really appreciate the explanations of concepts and the attempt at reconciling historical explanations with what we know to be scientifically true, in particular. And it's a nice overview of the vocal qualities associated with operatic singing (contrasted with vernacular singing (hooray, I know a new term for it now).
I'll definitely check it out. I haven't gotten around to reading that pdf you linked to earlier. I've always been fascinated by vocal production, so I will find the time for it, for sure.

Well, remember, this is the motion of the vocal folds (simplified animation, obviously) in chest voice:

It may cause other problems (a more aspirated quality, maybe, or a greater chance of cracking when sustaining a note), but obviously being able to vibrate is unaffected by nodules or else someone with nodules would be rendered incapable of speech at all)

Oh, I wasn't saying it would stop vibration, but I was under the assumption that it would limit flexibility, causing the build up of pressure for certain vocalizations and possibly that strange secondary sound. :)

Important PSA: You're a shady dame using a video of Mariah in 2008 when her voice was bar none career-worst shape. You know from scouring Gold Coast videos that she sounds pretty great these days. ;)

;) Although, that example was more to show how she attempted to sing the song mid-interview and quickly gloss over it as if it didn't happen. But she is in much better vocal shape these days, for sure. It was less about the strain and more about her reaction to it.

I think you're over-fixating on these rare moments, though; you've essentially found moments of one phenomenon in 2008 (apparent simultaneous production in two registers, which simply makes no sense) and another in 2013 (cracking / accidentally sliding into a higher register) and I'm not sure this is a common enough occurrence that you can ascribe it to something that hasn't really changed: she's had nodules. If this were the issue, why have we heard this happen in only a handful of performances rather than more? If her nodules are playing a role, I'd guess it is just causing her to squeak somewhat in the midst of her belts or crack into falsetto.

True. I'm only intrigued by it because it's so strange. Especially considering that if her voice does operate somewhat differently, well, especially for her whistle-register singing, that there's really no precedent to follow as a guide for what that is if it is happening.

Oh, and she has been somewhat candid about her nodules. I don't think she's ever stated that they've helped her, but she has said rather candidly that because she's had her nodules since childhood, she effectively uses them. I think you'd have to find out who her vocal doctor is and see if there is anything published to know what she might be referring to there, though.

Thanks for that video. I've never seen it, surprisingly. It comes off as more "My voice is a freak of nature and I have my good days and bad days." Perhaps I'm wanting too much, but I was hoping for more of an acknowledgment addressing the more obvious issue of degradation that goes beyond "good and bad days" to seemingly permanent damage. She's better these days, so maybe all of this is moot if she continues to improve.

I think this dual vocalization thing is a nice segue-way into Yma Sumac: Supposedly she's capable of this very same thing, only it was an intentional ability. I haven't read much about it other than the wiki entry that links to an hour long streaming .ram file with strange space-like intro music that I can't get working past the one-minute mark. Apparently Chuncho's high-pitched trill is an example of this.

Have you ever read or head about this supposed ability?
 
One of my favorite vocal "ornaments" is glissando (sliding from one pitch to another in one smooth, continuous sound). When done right and placed correctly in a song, it viciously strikes my fragile emotional side like a croquette hammer.

Based on that video, I think Patti is the clear winner, but Mariah's most impressive examples aren't too far behind. Many of them aren't exactly what I'd call seamless transitions, though
*cough* Jessica Simpson *cough*

For the "harsh voice" enthusiasts...I found this video rather humorous.

"Never really hitting the note, pretty much just screaming."
 

royalan

Member
One of my favorite vocal "ornaments" is glissando (sliding from one pitch to another in one smooth, continuous sound). When done right and placed correctly in a song, it viciously strikes my fragile emotional side like a croquette hammer.

Based on that video, I think Patti is the clear winner, but Mariah's most impressive examples aren't too far behind. Many of them aren't exactly what I'd call seamless transitions, though
*cough* Jessica Simpson *cough*

For the "harsh voice" enthusiasts...I found this video rather humorous.

"Never really hitting the note, pretty much just screaming."

She has a raspy/growl-singing video that helped me somewhat. *.*
 

3phemeral

Member
One of my favorite vocal "ornaments" is glissando (sliding from one pitch to another in one smooth, continuous sound). When done right and placed correctly in a song, it viciously strikes my fragile emotional side like a croquette hammer.
I'm surprised they didn't include this live glissando Mariah did for her Patti tribute, which I absolutely adore.


Hmm... I never thought of it that way. Whenever I reproduce that growl sound, I always produced it like a roaring sound you do when you emulate animals, which is harsher and had limited range of use. This seems lighter in the vocal cords but I'm sick at the moment, so I'll try it out when I'm a little better.
 

Mumei

Member
Hrm... I agree to an extent. But then you have prodigies who teach themselves how to play numerous instruments
Flavor Flav, whodathunk?
. There will always be outliers for these things, but I'm mainly coming from the perspective that built instruments have a certain goal of musical perfection that's expected of their build quality, whereas vocalists don't have the advantage of knowing, only feeling. This, in my opinion, makes learning to use it more difficult than something you can visually teach by saying, "this is how to produce this note by applying pressure to this cord," etc.

Well, yes, this is true. Singers are unable to see the instrument and so it can't be explained in direct terms and physical demonstration, where the teacher can take the instrument and show what needs to be done, is also impossible. And obviously control is sort of "one step removed"; in that it is possible to, say, sing with a lowered larynx or to engage a coup de glotte before singing, but at the same time it is impossible to tell a student, "Take the posterior ends of your arytenoid cartilages and have them drawn together by the contraction of the interarytenoids; to this add medial tension so that they will be drawn together along the length of the entire cartilaginous glottis. This will create a three-fifths glottis which creates a prephonatory set that doesn't waste air and creates a more brilliant sound."

... This makes little sense as a pedagogical explanation for how to do it, even if it might be useful for explaining what is happening internally when resonance imagery and indirect methods of explanation are unclear. So there is a certain amount of indirectness both in teaching and in doing (e.g. Forming a mental image of the sound that needs to be produced helps to create prephonatory set).

There's also this amusing anecdote where the composer Charles Gounod is asked to teach a young girl to sing, and after much resistance he finally relents:

Gounod put the girl in front of him, looked straight in her eyes and said: "Place your bow, let the urn of your voice pour out its contents, and give me a mauve sound in which I may wash my hands." Marchesi called this a 'poetical, if wholly unpractical, way of asking a student to make a sound.​

Oh, I wasn't saying it would stop vibration, but I was under the assumption that it would limit flexibility, causing the build up of pressure for certain vocalizations and possibly that strange secondary sound. :)

Well, you are right about the effect that nodules can have on flexibility, but given the undulatory wave motion of the folds and how the sound is produced, I'm not sure how this build up of pressure is supposed to occur. It doesn't sound like the intentionally produced noise in a particular register.

Thanks for that video. I've never seen it, surprisingly. It comes off as more "My voice is a freak of nature and I have my good days and bad days." Perhaps I'm wanting too much, but I was hoping for more of an acknowledgment addressing the more obvious issue of degradation that goes beyond "good and bad days" to seemingly permanent damage. She's better these days, so maybe all of this is moot if she continues to improve.

She's definitely very coy about her vocal changes. There's another interview where she's asked about her voice changing and her response is essentially, "Yeah, it's the same. It just depends on whether I'm well-rested or not."

And while it is certainly true that rest is important, and she has come up with some performances in her latter years that are nearly as impressive as what she was doing in her 20s (When Christmas Comes; O Come All Ye Faithful), the suggestion that her voice is hunky-dory is a bit much to swallow. She's clearly lost vibrancy, ease, flexibility, and comfort pushing for a bigger sound - even if her range is actually much the same as it was.

I think this dual vocalization thing is a nice segue-way into Yma Sumac: Supposedly she's capable of this very same thing, only it was an intentional ability. I haven't read much about it other than the wiki entry that links to an hour long streaming .ram file with strange space-like intro music that I can't get working past the one-minute mark. Apparently Chuncho's high-pitched trill is an example of this.

Have you ever read or head about this supposed ability?

I have, but I've only ever heard references in a rather obscure and vague manner that don't really explain what is happening. If it is that trill in Chuncho, I don't think that sounds like what Mariah is doing; it sounds more "even" between the sounds and it sounds intentional.

One of my favorite vocal "ornaments" is glissando (sliding from one pitch to another in one smooth, continuous sound). When done right and placed correctly in a song, it viciously strikes my fragile emotional side like a croquette hammer.

Based on that video, I think Patti is the clear winner, but Mariah's most impressive examples aren't too far behind. Many of them aren't exactly what I'd call seamless transitions, though
*cough* Jessica Simpson *cough*

For the "harsh voice" enthusiasts...I found this video rather humorous.

"Never really hitting the note, pretty much just screaming."

I love that second video, and yes, Patti has the best glissandos. One of my personal favorites is the falsetto glissando Freddie Mercury does in Under Pressure, though.
 

Mumei

Member
Double posting!

One tradition I would like bring over from PopGAF is State Your Faves.

Absolutely! Let me appropriaté your format somewhat! I am going to have multiple parts to this:

Whitney Houston


She had incredible (and underrated) versatility, consummate ease, one of the most athletic and durable voices in popular music, was one of the only singers in non-operatic music with an even scale from top to bottom (Streisand is another), and her covers (Greatest Love of All, I Will Always Love You, Saving All My Love For You) became standards. And she is also an incredible musician and singer in addition to being a fantastic vocalist. She has one of the richest head voices in popular music, and I haven't heard anyone come close to her dynamic control in that register. She also possesses a phenomenal ability to push for the size and volume of an even larger voice. For instance, she has a medium-large voice at base, which is noticeably smaller than the voice of someone like Shirley Bassey, but because she has the ability to push healthily (and importantly, possesses a voice whose tone blooms in richness and quality when pushed like that instead of becoming strained or ugly), she can actually achieve volumes and a size as large (or arguably larger) than someone like Shirley; the One Moment in Time performance is a good example of her doing this. I particularly love the overtones in her voice; she has this combination of density, richness, and clarity that I don't think any other singer in popular music matches, though it seems almost everyone who came after her tried.

Listen to: Feels So Good, Dancin' On The Smooth Edge, One Moment in Time (Live), Love Will Save The Day (Live), Greatest Love Of All (Live)

Mariah Carey


I wasn't really a fan of Whitney or Mariah about four or five years ago. I knew who they were, and I knew they sang well in a sort of "Well everyone knows they sing well" sort of way, but I didn't have much interest beyond that. But then one day I heard Emotions come on the radio and the whistles were mindblowing. I could tell that they were vocalizations that a human was doing but I had no idea that people could do that (or at least have so much control with noises that high). When I got home, I went online and started listening to some songs and I realized I already knew a lot of them (basically any major single from 1993 - 2005) and had sort of been a fan without knowing I was a fan, in a way. I also ended up starting to listen to Whitney through this; when I searched for stuff about Mariah, I inevitably found stuff about Whitney as well. Mariah's sound tends to be more flexible than Whitney's, and she makes more ubiquitous use of coloratura inflections, and this probably my favorite part of her singing. No one in the last three generations has made as virtuosic and musically coherent use of melisma that seems stitched into the melody of a song as Mariah has.

Listen to: Slipping Away, To Be Around You, Can't Let Go (Live), Anytime You Need a Friend C&C Remix, The Wind, Now That I Know

Freddie Mercury


Freddie was for years my number one favorite singer. While he was not the most impressive live singer, at least when it came to pushing his range (probably barely two octaves of comfortable, regularly accessed range in full voice and even then made irregular use of falsetto), or reproducing his best material live - he was guilty of dodging many of the more difficult modulations, high notes, melismatic inflections, and so forth that make his studio work so impressive - I feel comfortable excusing this because of his touring and vocal nodules And his studio work is just that fantastic. Freddie had an incredibly powerful voice, great versatility, my favorite male falsetto (and other men may be able to scream better in falsetto, but none of them can croon like him, achieve his soft tone, or achieve so much volume while still sounding so pretty), and (for my money) the best tone in rock music. I think a great deal of his reputation as a great live singer in spite of his unwillingness to attempt to reproduce his repertoire live is simply that he has such a wonderfully rich tone and such a resonant voice.

Listen to: Cool Cat, The Great Pretender, The Show Must Go On, Need Your Loving Tonight, Lazing On A Sunday Afternoon, Guide Me Home / How Can I Go On (alt. take), Stone Cold Crazy, The Kiss, Innuendo, Somebody to Love (Live)

Karen Carpenter


Karen is fairly recent for me. I was reading Neil Gaiman's Sandman, and in one of the early chapters the Mamas and the Papas song "Dream A Little Dream Of Me" is playing in the background. So after I read that chapter, I went and looked up the song to listen to, and someone in the comments section mentioned Karen Carpenter as another singer with a warm, inviting voice. The first song I listened to was her singing Rainy Days and Mondays and that is still one of my favorites. I think the most interesting thing about Karen's voice is that she is one of those singers who exemplifies how lightening or darkening one's voice can shift perceptions about how low or high a voice is. While Karen does have a mezzo-soprano voice, she does not actually sing nearly as low (in terms of pitch) as she appears to at first listen. But she has such a dark shade to her voice (especially in studio, compare Rainy Days and Mondays in studio to live for a good example of how light her voice actually is) that she seems to be a low Toni Braxton-esque mezzo-soprano in spite of where her voice actually sits.

Listen to: Top Of The World, Medley w/ Ella Fitzgerald, I Need To Be In Love, This Masquerade, Ave Maria

Jackie Wilson


I discovered Jackie through another forum I post on. There was one guy in particular who was a really big fan and introduced me (albeit indirectly) to a lot of his material. Jackie was actually a really big influence on Michael Jackson (who even covered a couple of his songs, most notably Doggin' Around) and from whom he borrowed some of his falsetto vocalizations ("Hoo!" and so forth). Jackie himself was fascinated by operatic singing and you can hear the influence in a lot of his songs. In fact, some of his songs are based on arias; Saint-Saëns' My Heart At Thy Sweet Voice is the melodic basis for Night, for instance. His falsetto doesn't quite have Freddie's sweet tonal quality (and he certainly doesn't have Freddie's surprisingly clean diction in falsetto), he still possesses a great deal of facility and comfortable range (up to soprano C6) in falsetto. And his technical ability is amazing. Danny Boy is probably his greatest showcase - the belts, the melisma (that run towards the end!), that slide down on "down", the little "lilt" he he does in his voice that I don't know the technical word for, the transitions, the support and resonance throughout is just amazing.

Listen to: Shout, Lonely Teadrops (Live), Stardust, Over The Rainbow, Doggin' Around, For Once In My Life, Danny Boy (Live), You Left The Fire Burning

Leontyne Price


I first tried getting into opera about... four or five years ago. I had essentially gone the route of finding out which singers were, by general acclaim, considered the best and listening to them. This worked out just fine for tenors; Bjorling has since become one of my favorite singers and someone I'll mention a bit more about later. But unfortunately as I learned later, Maria Callas is a singer whose timbre is something of an acquired taste and to fully appreciate her - something I'm really still not capable of, but hey - you need a greater familiarity with operatic music, musicianship, and operatic technique (and the ability to recognize technical differences in an already rarefied field of ability) to really understand and appreciate her as an artist and a vocalist. But! I had discovered those videos that WestVoice made in the OP (which reinvigorated my interest in singing as a technical phenomenon) and I found the related video BZBlaner made for resonance, and finally found his video for Leontyne's vocal range. It was really quite mind blowing. She has this dark tone (surprising in a soprano) in her lower register, a surprisingly strong chest register, and best of all, her upper register is never shrill. Her voice maintains this warmth (something bizarre to say about notes as high as E6) even at the highest parts of her range. Her voice has this wonderful voluminous and mellifluous quality. My Leontyne album compilation collection has a great story about her debut at the Met - just six years after Marian Anderson became the first black woman to sing at that venue - where after her performance of D'amor sull'ali rosee she was given a 25 minute standing ovation, and at the final curtain call the applause lasted for 42 minutes. In addition to her operatic work, lieder, recitals, and so forth, she also did a crossover album in a more jazz style and does a much more convincing job crossing over than a lot of operatically trained singers seem to.

Listen to: Caro nome, Divinites du Styx, O patria mia, Love Walked In, Chi il bel sogno di Doretta, O mio babbino caro, Tacea la notte placida, God Bless America (post-retirement, at 74~), Ave Maria
 

royalan

Member
Great post!
although I C all that Xtina shade packed into the Whitney segment.

I keep telling myself I'm going to get into more opera, but it's hard to pick a place to start. Any current singers that are notable?
 

Mumei

Member
Great post!
although I C all that Xtina shade packed into the Whitney segment.

I can't help myself. Did you happen to read the earlier post with the quote about the difference between a loud and a big tone? I think it's probably the best explanation I've read for the difference between the two.

I keep telling myself I'm going to get into more opera, but it's hard to pick a place to start. Any current singers that are notable?

I know historically who a lot of the best singers of the twentieth-century are supposed to have been (Caruso, Lehman, Callas, Nilsson, Flagstad, Sutherland, Price, Bjorling, Pavarotti, Hallstein, Horne, Domingo, Podle, etc.), but I don't know as much about current singers. I have heard good things about Joyce DiDonato, Diana Damrau, Juan Diego Florez, Sumi Jo, Natalie Dessay, Renée Fleming and some others I'm not thinking of offhand, though.
 

v1oz

Member
Great thread. Subscribed!

Does anyone how Michael Jackson achieved such a light and flexible tone his his voice? And also how he got it sound so percussive, with very powerful transients in the attack. Most people that attempt Michael Jackson covers usually don't do them any justice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwBpB1Ok6JA
 

Mumei

Member
Great thread. Subscribed!

Does anyone how Michael Jackson achieved such a light and flexible tone his his voice? And also how he got it sound so percussive, with very powerful transients in the attack. Most people that attempt Michael Jackson covers usually don't do them any justice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwBpB1Ok6JA

I don't know about the percussive thing (I'm guessing just something about his glottal onset; you might find this video of an opera singer and an emcee; the emcee does some of the percussive stuff I think you're talking about and it is interesting to see what he's doing in his mouth), but I think that the light and flexible tone is partly there because that is something that he wanted to have. I mean, Michael has solid lows down to F#2 in warm-up, and while that obviously isn't "projecting into an opera hall" standards, it is still audible without a mic. I sometimes think there's something to the joke about how "Everyone wanted to sound like Michael; Michael wanted to sound like Diana Ross." He usually goes for that super high (for a man) alto range singing.

I know his vocal coach was Seth Riggs, who is a well-known celebrity vocal coach. It's interesting because Riggs styles himself as a sort of bel canto aficionado, but without the higher standards (or constraints) of operatic production. And I find it interesting because the way he talks mirrors a lot of what I've read about early bel canto teachers (emphasis on tone and pure vowels), without an emphasis on a physiological understanding of production or glottal onset or larynx position or breath control or so on and so forth. And of course the interesting thing is that the only way to get the proper tonal qualities for operatic production is to have the proper coup de glotte, chiaroscuro, appoggia, register equalization, and proper vibrato - and this is obviously possible without a firm understanding of their physiological production. But when you disconnect everything from the need for pure Italian vowels and operatic tonal production, what standard are you using? I've always been sort of curious how his speech-level singing technique is supposed to be applied properly to vernacular styles of singing because of that. How do you produce a singer with consistent breath support when you don't necessarily have a standard for tonal production that requires it, nor do you talk about it at all?

I don't know. I think Michael sounded worse purely when it came to tone and support as an adult than he did as a teenager, though. I don't know if it was vocal damage or if a change in how he was singing, though. He never seemed as well supported and he seemed like he lost tonal quality as an adult, though.
 

FelixOrion

Poet Centuriate
I'm working on a few posts more harsh vocal posts, if anyone is interested. I'll be focusing on:
  • A few harsh vocalists I missed in my first 'Post your favs'
  • Spotlight on female harsh vocalists (just for you Mumei ;p)
  • Harsh vocalists I think are bad and why

In the mean time, Mumei: I know you were able to find documentation on growl early on this page, and I wanted to ask if you're able to find anything on a much disliked (by a good chunk of metalheads) but very distinct technique of harsh vocals called "pig squeals." Here are some example of what I am talking about (the technique should be very noticeable):

Job for a Cowboy - "Entombment of a Machine"
Despised Icon - "Furtive Monologue"
 
Just wanted to give some representation to my namesake's biggest vocal inspiration: Eva Cassidy.

Probably the warmest soul in all of pop-dom. Sadly, her music didn't garner any recognition until long after her life had been tragically cut short by cancer at the age of 33.

Her singing just lets you in. Not the biggest or most impressive voice, but certainly one of the most expressive.
 

Mumei

Member
Bleh. My computer at home is being awful so I have lost some of my next post. I'll try to work on it today at work a bit.

I'm working on a few posts more harsh vocal posts, if anyone is interested. I'll be focusing on:
  • A few harsh vocalists I missed in my first 'Post your favs'
  • Spotlight on female harsh vocalists (just for you Mumei ;p)
  • Harsh vocalists I think are bad and why

In the mean time, Mumei: I know you were able to find documentation on growl early on this page, and I wanted to ask if you're able to find anything on a much disliked (by a good chunk of metalheads) but very distinct technique of harsh vocals called "pig squeals." Here are some example of what I am talking about (the technique should be very noticeable):

Job for a Cowboy - "Entombment of a Machine"
Despised Icon - "Furtive Monologue"

... I think it is spectacularly dumb. Or at least I don't think it counts for the purposes of vocal range. I don't believe in counting every noise you can burp / fart / hum / screech and so forth, anyway. I remember seeing this vocal range video for Billy Gibbons where he's supposed to have this F7... and it's this teensy little crack that sounds like an inhalation and is about three-quarters of an octave separated from the rest of his range. It's rather ridiculous to count stuff like that.

I am interested in harsh vocalists you think are bad and why, and female vocalists. I mean, I like men, too, but harsh vocals from females aren't something I hear as often.
 

FelixOrion

Poet Centuriate
Bleh. My computer at home is being awful so I have lost some of my next post. I'll try to work on it today at work a bit.



... I think it is spectacularly dumb. Or at least I don't think it counts for the purposes of vocal range. I don't believe in counting every noise you can burp / fart / hum / screech and so forth, anyway. I remember seeing this vocal range video for Billy Gibbons where he's supposed to have this F7... and it's this teensy little crack that sounds like an inhalation and is about three-quarters of an octave separated from the rest of his range. It's rather ridiculous to count stuff like that.

I am interested in harsh vocalists you think are bad and why, and female vocalists. I mean, I like men, too, but harsh vocals from females aren't something I hear as often.

I'm with you in thinking it is dumb, but it's not just some little thing confined to one vocalist or rarely heard, and is a prominent vocal technique in some subgenres.

Excellent. I'm travelling the next couple of days, but expect them soon.
 

Mumei

Member
I'm with you in thinking it is dumb, but it's not just some little thing confined to one vocalist or rarely heard, and is a prominent vocal technique in some subgenres.

Excellent. I'm travelling the next couple of days, but expect them soon.

Oh, certainly. I mean, obviously different genres have different conventions about the sort of vocalizations that are considered appropriate (e.g. belting is not considered appropriate in classical music, at least these days, though there was some interesting speculation about the possibility before the development of covered singing for male chest notes above E4 in that book I was reading); I just mean that if we're ever discussing vocal range, I think that only certain things should count for that.
 

royalan

Member
So I remember Mumei bringing up in conversation a while back that a lot of Rock singers are actually pretty talented and accomplished vocalists.

I was browsing Youtube today looking up examples of male pop singers hitting the tenor C when I came across this video featuring rock singers hitting the note.

Some of the guys are just screaming...but there's some pretty impressive singing in this video. I might have to start exploring Rock a bit more...

LOL @ the random Babs note thrown in...stan
 

Cyan

Banned
So I remember Mumei bringing up in conversation a while back that a lot of Rock singers are actually pretty talented and accomplished vocalists.

I was browsing Youtube today looking up examples of male pop singers hitting the tenor C when I came across this video featuring rock singers hitting the note.

Some of the guys are just screaming...but there's some pretty impressive singing in this video. I might have to start exploring Rock a bit more...

LOL @ the random Babs note thrown in...stan

Listen to some Maynard James Keenan (Tool, A Perfect Circle, etc). Awesome vocalist. Doesn't generally belt it out, but kills it every time.

Here's an interesting example from a Tool song with his vocals separated out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdDgzrdUEu0
 
I sing just for fun, sometimes sing at jam nights around town, but never had any vocal courses. I do want to follow them though because I am probably using only 10% of what my voice can do.

I love this thread, videos are great and it's great everyone's posting so many wonderful artists.

For me a great inspiration is Donny Hathaway; this is him performing Put Your Hand In The Hand: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVO-wO0L18Q. Unfortunately he died way too young so we don't have many performances of him on video. You can find loads of music though. I think he had one of the best voices in the industry with some amazing vibrato.

The vibrato brings me to one of my main issues; I just can't do it properly. I have some really quick vibrations sometimes when singing jazz songs, but when doing other genres, I guess I start to use my voice differently and the vibrato disappears. Long story short, I just can't control it.

I looked at the belting video and realized that I suck at doing this. I just can't get a powerful high note, and the relatively scientific terms the video uses don't mean much to me.

Nevertheless, great thread, don't let it die!
 

royalan

Member
Listen to some Maynard James Keenan (Tool, A Perfect Circle, etc). Awesome vocalist. Doesn't generally belt it out, but kills it every time.

Here's an interesting example from a Tool song with his vocals separated out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdDgzrdUEu0

Hmmm...my roommate is a Tool fan. I'll have to raid his computer.

So, ummm...I'm SORTA HAVING A CRISES.

Mumei knows that I sing in a chorus. I'm a baritone (usually, more on that in a second).

Well, over Christmas I caught a really bad cold (or flu) that lasted a little over a week, and my main symptoms were extreme congestion, coughing, and just general throat irritation. The cough was pretty bad, and I actually lost my voice for a good day or so, but outside of my nose still being a little clogged, I feel perfectly fine now.

Or so I thought.

We had our first rehearsal for the next concert we're doing this past Wednesday. That morning, I was doing warm-ups just to prepare and I noticed my voice was locking up in a strange way as I went up. I figured it was just from me not having sung in a while and it being early morning. I thought that by the time rehearsal rolled around later in the day my voice would nice and warmed up. It wasn't. I was singing scales with the creative director and around F4 my voice just completely locked up (accompanied by an embarrassing squeak! and everything). I'm usually able to sing up to a B4 comfortably...even higher than that if I start compromising some things.

Even stranger to me was that, when descending the scale, I was able to sing as low as E2! With some resonance! I've never been able to sing that low! Surprised me and the director so much that, for this particular concert, he moved me to the Bass section.

...
I DON'T want to be no fuckin' Bass!

I didn't sing a peep yesterday to give my voice time to rest. But today I went at it like crazy, and there's been no change. I even tried practicing in the shower hoping that the steam would loosen up my chords. I can at least reach the F4 now, but I can't sustain it
and it sounds awful
. There is nothing stranger than the feeling of knowing a note is there, but having your voice give out every freaking time.

I don't know what's going on. I've never had a cold affect my voice to this degree. And why is my lower range not only intact, but improved? My voice can't be changing; at 26 I'm too old (and at the same time not old enough).

What's worse is that there's a solo in this concert that I REALLY want, auditions for it are next week, and it's in my usual range. But if my voice doesn't come back soon I can kiss that goodbye.

I haven't drank so much goddamn tea with honey in my life.

EDIT: that was a longer rant than I was planning.
 

Mumei

Member
MrOogieBoogie, it's pretty cool. Bowie has a great voice.

... Roy, couldn't it just be that the cold affected your vocal chords by causing them to swell, thus lowering your voice for the time being? I mean, you're basically describing various issues that particularly effect the vocal chords.

So I remember Mumei bringing up in conversation a while back that a lot of Rock singers are actually pretty talented and accomplished vocalists.

I was browsing Youtube today looking up examples of male pop singers hitting the tenor C when I came across this video featuring rock singers hitting the note.

Some of the guys are just screaming...but there's some pretty impressive singing in this video. I might have to start exploring Rock a bit more...

LOL @ the random Babs note thrown in...stan

Silly. You linked to C#5 instead of C5. :)

On the C5 video, I particularly love Patton, Lambert, Khan, Perry, Orbison, Streisand, and Balsamo. I really love Mercury on this note, but not that example. On the C#5 video I liked Mercury, Cornell, Phelps, Lambert, Streisand, Wilson, and Perry.

Streisand was the best on both, though.

The vibrato brings me to one of my main issues; I just can't do it properly. I have some really quick vibrations sometimes when singing jazz songs, but when doing other genres, I guess I start to use my voice differently and the vibrato disappears. Long story short, I just can't control it.

I looked at the belting video and realized that I suck at doing this. I just can't get a powerful high note, and the relatively scientific terms the video uses don't mean much to me.

Nevertheless, great thread, don't let it die!

Haha. Well, unfortunately I cannot really help much with explaining how to do it. As I understand it, vibrato is something that occurs naturally when the voice is arranged in a certain way and some kind of vocalizations are less given to vibrato (for instance, belting is apparently often marked by a period of vibrato-less sustain, followed by vibrato at the tail end of the note). From what I've read of classical singing, vibrato isn't really something you try to make; it is something that occurs fairly naturally as a result of other training as sort of a physiological side-effect, and through practice you learn to control its speed.

Edit: Oh, Roy. Go to your library and get this book:

15875692.jpg


It is very educational, and would probably be more useful to you than it was to me. ;)
 
Yes, that's what I hear as well. When I strike gold somewhere in the near future, I might be able to afford singing lessons. I will definitely do that then.

So, would it be cool to share some video of GAFfers singing? Maybe we can learn from eachother?
 

3phemeral

Member
Hmmm...my roommate is a Tool fan. I'll have to raid his computer.

So, ummm...I'm SORTA HAVING A CRISES.

Mumei knows that I sing in a chorus. I'm a baritone (usually, more on that in a second).

Well, over Christmas I caught a really bad cold (or flu) that lasted a little over a week, and my main symptoms were extreme congestion, coughing, and just general throat irritation. The cough was pretty bad, and I actually lost my voice for a good day or so, but outside of my nose still being a little clogged, I feel perfectly fine now.

Or so I thought.

We had our first rehearsal for the next concert we're doing this past Wednesday. That morning, I was doing warm-ups just to prepare and I noticed my voice was locking up in a strange way as I went up. I figured it was just from me not having sung in a while and it being early morning. I thought that by the time rehearsal rolled around later in the day my voice would nice and warmed up. It wasn't. I was singing scales with the creative director and around F4 my voice just completely locked up (accompanied by an embarrassing squeak! and everything). I'm usually able to sing up to a B4 comfortably...even higher than that if I start compromising some things.

Even stranger to me was that, when descending the scale, I was able to sing as low as E2! With some resonance! I've never been able to sing that low! Surprised me and the director so much that, for this particular concert, he moved me to the Bass section.

...
I DON'T want to be no fuckin' Bass!

I didn't sing a peep yesterday to give my voice time to rest. But today I went at it like crazy, and there's been no change. I even tried practicing in the shower hoping that the steam would loosen up my chords. I can at least reach the F4 now, but I can't sustain it
and it sounds awful
. There is nothing stranger than the feeling of knowing a note is there, but having your voice give out every freaking time.

I don't know what's going on. I've never had a cold affect my voice to this degree. And why is my lower range not only intact, but improved? My voice can't be changing; at 26 I'm too old (and at the same time not old enough).

What's worse is that there's a solo in this concert that I REALLY want, auditions for it are next week, and it's in my usual range. But if my voice doesn't come back soon I can kiss that goodbye.

I haven't drank so much goddamn tea with honey in my life.

EDIT: that was a longer rant than I was planning.

Sounds you might still have some leftover congestion. I don't see how your range would be suddenly affected unless you're going through puberty. Are you still coughing or having some minimal congestion? I usually sleep on my stomach with my body tilted downward toward my head slightly when I'm sick to prevent any of that congestion from getting stuck in my throat. Otherwise, it collects while I'm sleeping and I get a massive throat/lung infection when I wake up.
 

Mumei

Member
Xun, I prefer female vocalists, but it isn't as if there is a shortage of male singers I like.

Sounds you might still have some leftover congestion. I don't see how your range would be suddenly affected unless you're going through puberty. Are you still coughing or having some minimal congestion? I usually sleep on my stomach with my body tilted downward toward my head slightly when I'm sick to prevent any of that congestion from getting stuck in my throat. Otherwise, it collects while I'm sleeping and I get a massive throat/lung infection when I wake up.

I agree.

I didn't have time to expound while I was at work, but he actually reminded me of the book I mentioned when he said he had been drinking a lot of honey tea; the author mentioned at one point that because no drinks actually come into contact with the vocal chords themselves, the effects of any drinks will be necessarily secondary. It is sort of part and parcel of the whole issue with determining problems in the throat from sensations; it feels nice in the throat, but the honey tea is really only directly affecting (if at all) the esophagus.

And I have that same issue when I have a cold. I had that earlier this week - I walk up and the phlegm in the back of my throat made it physically painful to talk before it cleared up.

Anyhoo, I got my update back. More favorites!


Dusty Springfield


Dusty was another singer I was introduced to on another forum. I wasn't necessarily drawn to her at first; I listened to a couple songs and enjoyed them, but didn't listen much more. I actually then forgot about her for awhile, and it was only when I rediscovered her on my own that I really fell in love with her. She has a wonderful lyric mezzo soprano voice, with this beautiful texture to it. She definitely sounds at her best when she is singing in her chest voice, and definitely sounds more comfortable when she's lower; it's one of the weird things about her most acclaimed albums, Dusty in Memphis, that she spends so much of it singing in her falsetto where she's clearly not as comfortable vocally.

I read a book recently called Dusty! Queen of the Postmods, which is a series of essays about her influence on popular music from her image to her music to her singing to her popularization and evangelization of African American musical styles to European and most particularly British audiences. I really enjoyed these excerpts about two of her songs:

The first example, "Di fronte all'amore," might well be considered the mother of all pop arias. Though "You Don't Have to Say You Love Me (originally "Io che non vivo piu ei un ora senza te") was to become the biggest chart success of Dusty's career, her relatively unknown recording of "Di fronte all'amore" is an equally affecting model of the melodramatic pop aria genre. In terms of the two features previously mentioned - strategically placed modulations and the threat of vocal collapse - "Di fronte all'amore" displays their clearest, most concentrated, and most thrilling use. Literally packed with modulations, the song's first seciton (an AABA design) begins in Bb minor and circles back to it by 1:32 after traveling through three other key areas: to B minor at 0:27, to C minor at 0:50, and to F minor at 1:09. The Bb minor "middle eight" instrumental section (1:32 to 1:53) serves as a tonal bridge both closing off the first section and providing a launch for the second. Section two (BA) would seem to be reenacting the modulation sequence of section one, but the tonal scheme has been truncated (gasp!), and we lunge into F minor without first going through C minor. It looks like this: Bbm -> Bm -> Cm -> Fm -> Bbm -> Bm -> Fm (middle eight in italics). The overall effect of this large number of modulations within such a short time span is one of dangerously escalating tension and instability, with an element of extreme urgency added by part two's truncation. A spectacular congruence of dramatic elements occurs between 2:10 and 2:16: It is here that we leap over C minor, reach the highest point of the melody (c") on the word pero [but], and become aware that the voice has been driven by the modulations to the very end of its range and is starting to crack. The singer hurtles into the song's final line and highest notes, imploring, "non avere paura di me" [don't be afraid of me], with an orchestra playing at full volume and crashing timpani announcing an equally crashing silence at 2:38, directly before the cadential "di me." On this vocal precipice and with the singer's previously repressed emotions now on full sonic display, we are held at full throttle until the very end of the song.​

and!

"I Close My Eyes and Count to Ten," also by Clive Westlake, foregorunds modal shifts rather than modulation; the clear association of major/minor with the protagonist's shifting assessment of her own situation is the song's chief musical conceit. The shifts progress as follows: minor until 0:56, major until 1:30, minor until 2:09, major until 2:43, minor to end. The four shifts in mode create a seesaw effect expressing the singer's vacillation between belief (major) and disbelief (minor), optimism and pessimism concerning the love object ("it's a feeling so unreal I can't believe it's true"). The song would seem to end in a draw, having spent half its time in major and the other half in minor. Though we might expect the voice, once it reaches its highest notes, to be the deciding factor, it only reaffirms the ambiguity by saying one thing (the optimistic "you're still here") while accompanied by the other (the pessimistic minor mode). Though the existential dilemma remains unresolved, the singer succeeds in expressing the crippling doubt that the song's introduction foretold. She achieves this musically only at the end of the song, when she is catapulted into her upper register through the simple device of an octave leap at 2:52. Poised on the vocal brink, she repeats the phrase "I close my eyes and count to ten and when I open them you're still here" through the song's fade. While the voice survives this expression of extreme doubt, the fact that the song ends in minor and without the closure of a final cadence suggest that the doubt, unfortunately, survives also.​

She was also a tremendously versatile singer; listen to her Live at the BBC for a good sampling of what she did. She sang in quite a few genres and styles, as well as singing songs in Spanish, Italian, and German. I also love the
emotion in her voice; she communicates the emotion of a song so well in her voice. Obviously I really love singers like Mariah or Whitney, but I certainly recognize the criticism that sometimes there's an emotional disconnect with what they sing. I feel like Dusty is more one of those
singers whose emotions are more clearly discernible when they sing, or at least more consistently.

Listen to: I Only Want To Be With You, You Don't Have To Say You Love Me, Anything You Can Do, You Don't Own Me, Son Of A Preacher Man, Goin' Back, All I See Is You, Heat Wave, You Can Have Him

Barbra Streisand


I mentioned this earlier when talking to 3pheMeraLmiX earlier, but the thing that probably amazes me most about Streisand isn't her perfect placement or her absolutely incredible breath control - it is that she claims to be untrained and not really conscious of what she's doing. There are so many singers in popular music who struggle to sing even halfway competently because of poor vocal training, and yet she sings so perfectly. Babs is also actually a surprisingly versatile singer given her reputation as purely a showtunes singer; something such as Like A Straw in the Wind is rather different from what I had come to expect of her, anyway. But I still think her best material are those silly television specials.

And her voice just seems to melt over a phrase - I don't think anyone in vernacular music sings lines quite like she does, where it just seems to drip from one note to the next. I remember the first time I listened to her cover of I Loves You Porgy and something about the way that she sang it, I actually listened to the lyrics. I don't know how many times I listened to Whitney's (brilliant) 1994 AMA medley performance of I Loves You Porgy, And I Am Telling You, and I Have Nothing, but listening to Barbra's studio performance was the first time I actually paid attention to the words. It is close call between her, Ella, and Aretha for being able to deliver a song quite like that.

Oh, and her dynamics are nothing to sneeze at.

Listen to: Somewhere, Memory, I Got Plenty of Nothin', If I Loved You, Putting It Together, Since I Fell For You (that climactic G5 is amazing), My Melancholy Baby / Everybody Loves My Baby, Poverty Medley


Tim Buckley


I started listening to Tim Buckley a few years ago, and listened to almost everything I could find on Youtube as quickly as I could. I was really enamored with his vibrato in particular; it sort of reminds me of Grace Slick, though not quite so pronounced. I was not really into his live performances as much, though, until recently. I purchased Dream Letter, which contains a full two hour concert Tim Buckley performed in 1968, at the age of 21. I've read a couple CD insert hagiographies at this point, and they always refer to his voice using the same word "golden." He really was spectacularly gifted, with incredible versatility (folk, psychedelia, funk, soul, jazz, even the introduction of neoclassical elements), and unlike a lot of singers who simply rely on the ability of their voice to naturally suit different styles of music without fundamentally changing how they are singing, Tim was really willing to experiment with his voice. He sounds so completely different on Song to the Siren compared with Sweet Surrender compared with Phantasmagoria in Two compared with Phantasmagoria in Two live compared with Monterey compared with I Never Asked To Be Your Mountain compared to Knight Errant compared with Troubador live. I learned about Tim after I learned about Jeff, but I really prefer Tim's voice. It has a more resonant, deeper, more masculine quality to it, particularly the vibrato. You can really hear the similarity in their voices when Tim sings higher outside his real comfort range - something like the sustained E5s on Sweet Surrender are remarkably similar to Jeff on Grace, for instance.

Truth be told, though, I prefer him on material where he sings more "straight" and without straining, grunting, or yelling, though he is given to doing that on some of his material. But I do love that stuff in doses, as well. Oh, and yes: I Never Asked To Be Your Mountain was about his son Jeff and his estranged wife.

Listen to: The stuff I mentioned earlier, and also I Must Have Been Blind, Aren't You The Girl, Song of the Magician, Valentine Melody, Buzzin' Fly

Jussi Bjorling


Silver.

I think that's the best way of describing his voice; every famous opera singer seems to have a color that you can associate with their voice, and "silver" seems to be the best way of describing Jussi's timbre. And interestingly, it is probably the only descriptor everyone seems to agree on. I read the biography his wife wrote, and in the numerous concert review excerpts she included, his voice was described as anywhere from below-average to huge in size; anywhere from average to very loud in volume; anywhere from light lyric to spinto in weight. I think he was generally agreed to be a lyric tenor, though when he died prematurely he was starting to develop the vocal weight to take on roles - at least in studio, if not on the stage - that required a weightier sound. So maybe not quite tenore spinto but starting to acquire some of those qualities. I know deeper tenor voices can become baritones later (e.g. Placido Domingo has begun to sing baritone roles now), so I suppose a lyric tenor might be able to make the move to deeper part of the tenor fach as his voice changes with age. I think that whatever the actual size of his voice, his voice had this wonderful combination of richness, slight brassiness (see Je crois entendre encore or Di quella pira for that), and clarity to it that I haven't heard from other tenors. He had a fabulously long career, starting when he was only a child as part of a group of touring singers along with his brothers and lasting until his premature death in 1960.

I'd particularly like to thank DarkhawkX for introducing me to this absolutely incredible performance Nessun Dorma, sung at a slower than normal tempo. His breath control is just incredible, and that final vincero sustained for about fourteen seconds is incredible for a covered note held for that long. I thought that the ordinary version was the best Nessun Dorma, but this was truly spectacular and one of my favorite Bjorling's performances.

Listen to: O Helga Natt, Pearl Fisher Duet, Che gelida manina, Je crois entendre encore, Questa o quella, È lucevan le stelle (and that diminuendo on 1:38 is sublime), Cujus Animam, Adelaide, Di qeulla pira, Ingemisco, O soave Fanciulla
 

FelixOrion

Poet Centuriate
Oh, certainly. I mean, obviously different genres have different conventions about the sort of vocalizations that are considered appropriate (e.g. belting is not considered appropriate in classical music, at least these days, though there was some interesting speculation about the possibility before the development of covered singing for male chest notes above E4 in that book I was reading); I just mean that if we're ever discussing vocal range, I think that only certain things should count for that.

Okay, fair enough.

Even stranger to me was that, when descending the scale, I was able to sing as low as E2! With some resonance! I've never been able to sing that low! Surprised me and the director so much that, for this particular concert, he moved me to the Bass section.

...
I DON'T want to be no fuckin' Bass!

What do you have against basses :mad:

I'm curious, but do you guys have a preference between male and female vocalists?

Overall, I tend to prefer male voices, but that's probably because metal and hard rock tend to be a bit of a boy's club. Genre-by-genre, though, it can vary.
 

lenovox1

Member
Barbra Streisand



I mentioned this earlier when talking to 3pheMeraLmiX earlier, but the thing that probably amazes me most about Streisand isn't her perfect placement or her absolutely incredible breath control - it is that she claims to be untrained and not really conscious of what she's doing. There are so many singers in popular music who struggle to sing even halfway competently because of poor vocal training, and yet she sings so perfectly. Babs is also actually a surprisingly versatile singer given her reputation as purely a showtunes singer; something such as Like A Straw in the Wind is rather different from what I had come to expect of her, anyway. But I still think her best material are those silly television specials.

And her voice just seems to melt over a phrase - I don't think anyone in vernacular music sings lines quite like she does, where it just seems to drip from one note to the next. I remember the first time I listened to her cover of I Loves You Porgy and something about the way that she sang it, I actually listened to the lyrics. I don't know how many times I listened to Whitney's (brilliant) 1994 AMA medley performance of I Loves You Porgy, And I Am Telling You, and I Have Nothing, but listening to Barbra's studio performance was the first time I actually paid attention to the words. It is close call between her, Ella, and Aretha for being able to deliver a song quite like that.

Oh, and her dynamics are nothing to sneeze at.

Listen to: Somewhere, Memory, I Got Plenty of Nothin', If I Loved You, Putting It Together, Since I Fell For You (that climactic G5 is amazing), My Melancholy Baby / Everybody Loves My Baby, Poverty Medley

Well, there couldn't be a more perfect excuse to post the DIVAs that were influenced and inspired by Ms. Streisand. Now, my thoughts on each selection aren't as well curated as Mumei's (he's pretty brilliant), but I'll see what I can do with what little energy I do put into this.

In no particular order:

Diva #1 - Betty Buckley

Our strong diva. If she used them for evil, her powerhouse pipes and machine gun vibratto could flatten anyone within a 40 mile radius. But used for good, as they are in these clips, we're left with one of the most thrilling vocalist that have ever stepped foot on any stage.

Now, Ms. Buckley kind of started her career as a traditionally warm and sweet Broadway soprano in the musical 1776. But, as you can here from the song below, she was already setting herself apart from her contemporaries.

She used *gasp* belt in a time when her contemporaries would have utilized their head voices much more. You can hear that at around the 2:00 minute mark, after the song modulates.

He Plays the Violin

After the Martha Washington role, she did a little TV (she was the stepmom in Eight is Enough) and a little more theatre, but she never really solidified her place in the industry until Andrew Lloyd Webber came along. This song right here solidified her place as one of the greatest singing actresses in musical theatre's history.

Her voice's ability to convey the light and darkness of the scene, and her absolute command of her instrument always absolutely astound. The woman really knows how to sell a moment.

Memory

She can sound quite wicked when she wants to be, as exemplified by the next number. While not the greatest song in the world, I really think this selection shows off just how "broad" her voice is. And I really can't get over how her delivery just seems so... On the brink. Loud, frightening, thrilling, full of passionate energy. Perfect for this material.

And Eve Was Weak

I think she may have been the first replacement for both the West End and the Broadway productions of this show (Sunset Boulevard). Based on how well the piece below fits into her voice, however, you'd never know it. It's just the perfect song for her range and intensity level.

As If We Never Said Goodbye


Diva #2 - Laurie Beechman

One of the greatest, most versatile vocalist on the planet. Bar none. She had a belt that could just soar and soar and soar. There was a reason that people proclaimed her the second coming of Streisand.

Okay, so we've heard Barbra's version and Betty's version, but know sings it like this. The nuance, the intelligence, and the straight up ease and flexibility. It sounds like nothing less than a dream on her instrument. And to think, she sang like this eight times a week for four years.

Memory

She can rock out with the best of them.

Party Lights

She's got a real affinity for jazz, too.

On a Clear Day

And now, her tribute to Babs. Perfect delivery perfect placement, and crisp vocals. It doesn't get any better than this, folks.

The Music That Makes Me Dance

And below is an analysis by Sirius/XM radio host, Seth Rudetsky. He really drives home the point about the way she places the pitches she sings. If you can handle his personality, anyone and everyone would be able to follow any of his deconstructions.

Laurie Beechman's Deconstruction

Her death in the late '90s broke many a heart, but she will always be remembered for her contributions as an artist.

Diva #3 - Patti LuPone


Musical theatre monarch. End of story.

Rainbow High on Merv Griffin

She is trained down to the letter t, both in acting and in singing. And she really knocks you over the head with that fact in her performance at the Grammys. I mean, she really pulls out all the stops there. And it's kind of amazing. Her signature aria.

Don't Cry For Me Argentina

Ah, and this is what a young, clean, cigarette-free Patti LuPone sounds like. Not quite as strident she is usually, but very strong.

Meadowlark

And here's her White House performance of Anything Goes and Blow, Gabriel, Blow along with Rudetsky's deconstruction of the latter. I think that deconstruction sums up my thoughts about her. She's a big crowd plreaser.

Anything Goes at the White House ¦ Blow, Gabriel, Blow

(She's still got it!)

Invisible

--

And those are my early in the morning thoughts. Probably would have given my brain time to warm up, but eh.
 
Before I forget, I wanted to introduce to you someone I think is absolutely stunning in so many ways and is one of my favourite contemporary artists. I saw her live at the North Sea Jazz festival last year and it was a great experience.

Esperanza Spalding

Esperanza-Spalding.jpg


This is Esperanza Spalding. Some of you might have heard of her and some of you might know her even better. She has done a couple of great albums and her voice is absolutely angelic. Well, let me rephrase that. What she can do with her voice is absolutely stunning.
While performing she plays bass, but she also plays another instrument and that is the one hidden inside her throat. She plays her voice as a piano, guitar, saxophone, I don't know. Sometimes she slips in her head voice and it sounds like the heavens open and we hear the voices of angels. It is just simply ridiculously wonderful. She has a very distinct style, which I love, and apart from being absolutely gorgeous, she is a great person as well.

I recommend watching these clips very much, because then you'll know the magic as well:
Esperanza Spalding - Hold On Me & I Can't Help It - Live at NSJ 2012
Esperanza Spalding - Radio Song - Live at NSJ 2012
 

MarkusRJR

Member
*subscribes*

I want to become a good singer over the next few years. I've been taking lessons half-assedly over the past 8 months or so, but I really want to be good now. Is it possible with lots of practice? How do you guys practice? How much practice is too much and bad for the throat?

Any tips would be nice tbh.
 

Rubbish King

The gift that keeps on giving
Listen to some Maynard James Keenan (Tool, A Perfect Circle, etc). Awesome vocalist. Doesn't generally belt it out, but kills it every time.

Here's an interesting example from a Tool song with his vocals separated out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdDgzrdUEu0

Nice, probably my favourite song from that album

The Pot and Right in Two are also pretty good examples off his brilliance

FFDP.jpg

I'd like to bring this beast to the table, for those who dont know he is Ivan Moody of Five Finger Death Punch

What's your opinion on him GAF? I think he has such a powerful voice another one i like is a cover of Bad Company
 

Mumei

Member
Well, there couldn't be a more perfect excuse to post the DIVAs that were influenced and inspired by Ms. Streisand. Now, my thoughts on each selection aren't as well curated as Mumei's (he's pretty brilliant), but I'll see what I can do with what little energy I do put into this.

Ahh!

What a fantastic post to wake up to! I really love the repeated use of Memory and other songs that Barbra sang. She's such an immensely influential vocalist - up there with Ella, Aretha, Mahalia, and others in that cohort - and obviously her influence isn't limited to her singing and delivery, but encompasses other mediums as well given her success in movies. And while your list is populated by people in the theater world, she is also very influential within pop music - there are singers, for instance, like Celine Dion who idolize her. I do feel like I should probably point out at this point for anyone who doesn't know that people in musical theater actually do use artificial amplification - I wasn't sure about the conventions on this myself when I was younger, as no mics would be visible at some times, and yet at other times they would be holding them and there was no difference in audio quality. Or maybe I was the only one who was ever confused about that. Haha.

I don't think anyone quite touches Bab's gorgeously even lyric mezzo, but you have some great performances here. The Betty Buckley performances of He Plays The Violin (you weren't kidding about her machine gun vibrato), Memory (that climactic "Touch me!" is so intense), and As If We Never Said Goodbye were all fantastic.

Unfortunately the Laura Beechman Memory performance you provided kept bringing me to a 404 page, so I had to search out my own. I'm unsure as to whether it was the one you meant to link to, but it was great. I saw the performance on the Phil Donahue show. I think one difference between the three performances of Memory where you can really see how fantastic Barbra - and particularly what I was talking about when I mentioned how she glides from phrase to phrase with the notes - is on the "Touch me, it's so easy to leave me" line. When Buckley and Beechman sang Memory, they'd sing "Touch me [slight, noticeable pause] it's so easy to leave me", whereas on Streisand's, listen to the way she transitions from "Touch me" to "It's so easy to leave me." There's no gap - she just transitions right from the sustained "e" to the "i" in "It's" and continues on from there. No one does that like her.

Edit: I listened again. Okay, there's a slight gap, but there's something about the way she phrases and times the slide from one word to the other that really hides it well.

I wasn't as impressed by Beechman's On A Clear Day. Streisand set the standard on that, and I didn't get that sense of effortless, soaring quality from her. The deconstruction Seth Rudetsky did was nice. I really enjoy analysis of individual singers from people who know more than me; it's something I particularly enjoyed about the Mariah / Beyonce / Maria Callas / Whitney (and forthcoming Aretha, I'm sure!) videos that BZBlaner did; he really does a good job of pointing out where they excel with repeated examples and it makes it easier to start noticing those things in other singers. When they aren't isolated, it seems like everything almost seems to blend together (naturally) and it is easy to lose sight of how amazing it is.

I was most amused when I scrolled down and saw your inclusion of Patti Lupone. And not because I think she's bad - though I feel like Shirley Bassey is sort of my ideal for the "completely-incapable-of-subtlety power vocalist" archetype who straddles the line between amazing and self-parody and Lupone seems to sort of slip slightly over to one side. It's actually because I watched two amazing compilations on Youtube of powerful belters, Fierce Belting Bitches and The Ultimate Power Divas: Vocal Battle, and as soon as Patti's parts came on, I could tell he was side-eyeing his screen from his comments. You'll have to ask him for more. :D

I actually think she sounded best on that Meadowlark performance (and look, subtlety! Well, it was an exaggeration. Haha). I prefer the vibrancy of her youthful voice to the strident, almost tense (not like ... "tension", but this sense that she's going as hard as she can go) quality of her later singing, though.

Esperanza Spalding

Esperanza-Spalding.jpg


This is Esperanza Spalding. Some of you might have heard of her and some of you might know her even better. She has done a couple of great albums and her voice is absolutely angelic. Well, let me rephrase that. What she can do with her voice is absolutely stunning.

I love her phrasing and delivery, and how light and effortless her voice is. I actually discovered her through PopGAF. I'm fairly sure it was Roy who was talking about Radio Music Society. I forgot about it for awhile, but sometime later when I was at the library walking past the CDs, I saw Chamber Music Society. I decided to check it out and loved it. Unfortunately I didn't see that for purchase when I went to the store (and I'm one of those weird people who prefers to own physical copies of albums if possible), but I did get the Deluxe Edition of Radio Music Society, which I enjoyed even more than Chamber.

*subscribes*

I want to become a good singer over the next few years. I've been taking lessons half-assedly over the past 8 months or so, but I really want to be good now. Is it possible with lots of practice? How do you guys practice? How much practice is too much and bad for the throat?

Any tips would be nice tbh.

I'm not a singer myself, but: It most certainly is possible to "build a voice" and improve. It isn't necessarily guaranteed that it'll work for you - it depends on your talent, ability to learn singing, and willingness to work - but it is possible.

I guess the best advice is to learn more about singing, vocal pedagogy, what is actually true, and so forth so you can audition vocal coaches as much as they might be auditioning you. Birgit Nilsson, one of the greatest dramatic sopranos of the recorded era, had said that her two vocal coaches were absolutely awful, and for her the stage was the best teacher. I somehow doubt you've got a voice and natural ability like she did, but it is a good case in point about how even a great voice can be ill-served if the teacher doesn't know what they are doing.
 
I sing just for fun, sometimes sing at jam nights around town, but never had any vocal courses. I do want to follow them though because I am probably using only 10% of what my voice can do.

I love this thread, videos are great and it's great everyone's posting so many wonderful artists.

For me a great inspiration is Donny Hathaway; this is him performing Put Your Hand In The Hand: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVO-wO0L18Q. Unfortunately he died way too young so we don't have many performances of him on video. You can find loads of music though. I think he had one of the best voices in the industry with some amazing vibrato.

The vibrato brings me to one of my main issues; I just can't do it properly. I have some really quick vibrations sometimes when singing jazz songs, but when doing other genres, I guess I start to use my voice differently and the vibrato disappears. Long story short, I just can't control it.

I looked at the belting video and realized that I suck at doing this. I just can't get a powerful high note, and the relatively scientific terms the video uses don't mean much to me.

Nevertheless, great thread, don't let it die!
Haha. Well, unfortunately I cannot really help much with explaining how to do it. As I understand it, vibrato is something that occurs naturally when the voice is arranged in a certain way and some kind of vocalizations are less given to vibrato (for instance, belting is apparently often marked by a period of vibrato-less sustain, followed by vibrato at the tail end of the note). From what I've read of classical singing, vibrato isn't really something you try to make; it is something that occurs fairly naturally as a result of other training as sort of a physiological side-effect, and through practice you learn to control its speed.

Edit: Oh, Roy. Go to your library and get this book:

15875692.jpg


It is very educational, and would probably be more useful to you than it was to me. ;)
Yeah, I was in the same boat as you, Pizza Luigi. When I first started taking voice lessons, I had NO vibrato. Which is bad for a classical singer. But after a while, my technique improved to the point where I have to consciously think about not using vibrato, which is harder than just freely letting my voice do what it naturally wants to do. While I can't tell you the mechanics of the thing, so long as your placement is correct, it should just happen on its own.

And you are right, Mumei. Throwing your voice out there in the manner that you have to when you belt just doesn't allow for the voice to vibrate in the same manner. The way I see it is that if your voice is calm and free, the vibrato should come naturally. Don't try to force it (actually, don't try to force ANYTHING with singing; the less tension the better, and if you feel any pain at all, stop what you are doing as you are doing it wrong!) but let it happen on its own. But with belting, you are using a whole lot more pressure. Your voice certainly isn't calm or free, at least not in the same way.

I am having a hard time trying to take what I do naturally and automatically and put it into words. One reason I have yet to try my hand at teaching or private lessons. But I would suggest that you keep at it. It wasn't an automatic thing at first for me. It took a two to three years of private lessons at college before the vibrato was totally natural. But before college I used to sing more from the throat than from the diaphragm. Not a good thing.
 

lenovox1

Member
I don't think anyone quite touches Bab's gorgeously even lyric mezzo, but you have some great performances here. The Betty Buckley performances of He Plays The Violin (you weren't kidding about her machine gun vibrato), Memory (that climactic "Touch me!" is so intense), and As If We Never Said Goodbye were all fantastic.

I didn't even post one of my favorite vocals of hers, because the only live performances on YouTube are low quality. But it's such a healthy placement on the final belted E that I've got to post it, and Seth Rudetsky's brilliant deconstruction of a workshop version of it wouldn't make much sense unless I posted it.

Writing on the Wall ¦ Seth Rudetsky's Deconstruction

I absolutely love the performance Seth deconstructs. It's complete, unfiltered Betty at her best (even if she swallows the last note there).

--

And I might as well copy and paste a post I made about Audra McDonald not so very long ago. She was influenced by Babs, too, but more in style and less in technique.

Your Daddy's Son - Recorded ¦ Live [ETA: This right here is the song that made everyone in the theatre community believers. The way she weaves from chest, to her strong mix, to her head is heart pounding. Added the recorded version for extra clarity.]

And now here's Audra improving on a John Mayor song. Okay, admittedly, not that great of feat, but an impressive interpretation none the less. My Stupid Mouth

Now combine a moving and impassioned sung-through interpretation of the Langston Hughes classic "Song for a Dark Girl" with a dark and haunting take on Irving Berlin's "Suppertime," and you start to understand why she's considered one of the greatest sing actresses of all time. OF ALL TIME! Song for a Dark Girl/Suppertime

Showing off more dramatic and legit soprano chops with a little selection from Porgy and Bess. My Man's Gone Now

An easy and smooth interpretation. Bein' Green

And the Andrew Lloyd Webber love trio feature two other treats, Judy Kuhn and Marin Mazzie. [ETA: She's singing the tenor line an octave up here. So she pings a great B flat at the end of the melody.]Broadway Melody

ETA: And here's Audra using her belt/mix a lot more heavily than she typically would. Down With Love
 
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