Looks like those ICE engine rumors were true (well sorta...)

[gbovo]

For the uninitiated, there were some rumors about 2 years ago that Sony was developing a 1st party engine/development framework for their 1st/2nd party development studios to use on their PS3 games. Though this isn't a confirmation of an actual "engine" in development, this IS a confirmation that there is an ICE TEAM headed by the Lead Programmer of Naughty Dog, David Simpson and guided with the help of Mark Cerny of CERNY GAMES

David Simpson is the Project Manager of the ICE team, a Sony Computer Entertainment first party technology group based at Naughty Dog, specializing in graphics systems and tools for the PlayStation 3. For the last ten years David has been at Sony writing performance oriented graphics systems for the PlayStation family of consoles.

Mark Cerny has been working in game design and technology for 25 years. He designed and programmed 1984's Marble Madness for Atari coin-op, and at Sega he oversaw the creation of Sonic the Hedgehog 2. While president of Universal Studios' game division, he worked in a variety of production and design roles on the Crash Bandicootand Spyro the Dragon series on the original Playstation. In 1998, Mark established Cerny Games as a consultancy, and has since participated in the creation of the Jak and Daxter and Ratchet and Clank series on Playstation 2 and the Playstation 3 launch title Resistance:Fall Of Man. He has also been instrumental in the creation and guidance of the ICE team, a technology group based at Naughty Dog that specializes in graphics systems and tools for the PlayStation 3. In 2004 the IGDA honored Mark with its Lifetime Achievement Award, calling him a "master collaborator" and a "jack of all trades."

Session Description During the runup to launch, Sony Worldwide Studios learned a great deal about creating high performance graphics applications on the Playstation 3. Much attention has already been devoted to shader programming, so this talk focuses instead on the other half of the equation; topics discussed will include the origin and usage of the libgcm API, algorithms for optimal use of the RSX vertex cache, and use of the CELL in tandem with the RSX including necessary synchronization techniques. This material has never been presented before in an open forum. Idea Takeaway The audience members will learn a number of techniques used in SCE 1st party games, with a focus on using the CELL in tandem with the RSX. Intended Audience This session is intended for graphics programmers who already know how to make surfaces bumpy and shiny, and are interested in learning other useful techniques for the PlayStation 3.

[Aisenherz]

Wait until you see Naughty Dogs game....

[gbovo]

Wait until you see Naughty Dogs game....

you've been hinting at that for a while now, have you had access to any videos/screenshots/seeing it in person besides what they showed in the E3 trailer?

[gbovo]

this thread needs more input

and love :(

[Ynos Yrros]

Nice work.
Naughty Dog is at the top of the AWESOME TECHNOLOGY mountain. They will probably come up with something stunning (they already wowed alot of people with E3 presentation).
As for PS3 engines and tools - every studio is working on them, they are sharing technology.

[Systems_id]

I thought David Jaffe himself confirmed that there was an Ice Engine awhile back?

[Busty]

Seriously, seriously.... I'm getting pretty sick and f*cking tired about hearing how Sony's 1st and 2nd party stuff is just going to blow everything else out of the water. About how they have an incredible set up for software development and support.

But you know what. We need to see it. We really do. The thing with information vaccums is that at first, there's an incredible amount of enthusiasm and positive energy as everyone wants to believe. But very quickly all that positivity turns sour.

Sony. You have the development infrastructure, you have the talent and resources. And I'm told (though even I'm starting to doubt it now) the games that no one else can touch.

If, at these upcoming Gamers Day, we just get more of Lair and perhaps another ambigious CGI video for another game that's ages away then frankly all this work doesn't mean a great deal.

I don't want to start dooming Sony as it's till far too early to do that. But it is worrying that all this chest beating still isn't resulting in concrete games that we can see and look forward too. There's too much about Sony's output that we know nothing about. And though I'm not pushing the panic button yet. I'm made sure I know where it is.... just in case.


BTW.... have Insomniac said anything about their engine, the one used for Resistance? Does it have a name, and if so, presumably they are using it for the new Ratchett and Clank? Just curious.

[gbovo]

I thought David Jaffe himself confirmed that there was an Ice Engine awhile back?

Don't know if he said anything about an engine, but he did say (in the GAF interview) that he saw Naughty Dog's game and that it was jaw dropping

[gbovo]

Seriously, seriously.... I'm getting pretty sick and f*cking tired about hearing how Sony's 1st and 2nd party stuff is just going to blow everything else out of the water. About how they have an incredible set up for software development and support. But you know what. We need to see it. We really do. The thing with information vaccums is that at first, there's an incredible amount of enthusiasm and positive energy as everyone wants to believe. But very quickly all that positivity turns sour. Sony. You have the development infrastructure, you have the talent and resources. And I'm told (though even I'm starting to doubt it now) the games that no one else can touch. If, at these upcoming Gamers Day, we just get more of Lair and perhaps another ambigious CGI video for another game that's ages away then frankly all this work doesn't mean a great deal. I don't want to start dooming Sony as it's till far too early to do that. But it is worrying that all this chest beating still isn't resulting in concrete games that we can see and look forward too. There's too much about Sony's output that we know nothing about. And though I'm not pushing the panic button yet. I'm made sure I know where it is.... just in case. BTW.... have Insomniac said anything about their engine, the one used for Resistance? Does it have a name, and if so, presumably they are using it for the new Ratchett and Clank? Just curious.

Dude, just give them a bit of time. Sony isn't hyping anything up themselves. they want the games to do the talking (instead of some PR fact sheet). This generation, Sony's 1st/2nd party devs aren't just making games for PS3, but they are also making libraries for the SDK. That's why Sony is investing so much in the 1st party development. Even if one of their titles doesn't sell enough to break even, the libraries and tools developed from that game can/will be shared and used by other 1st AND 3rd party developers.

[Ynos Yrros]

Busty, they prove their technical prowess in MotorStorm, F1, Warhawk and Resistance if that counts. We also seen Naughty Dog's game demo, and Heavenly Sword. They can't just start hyping everything until the system launches globally, they need to go step after step.

[Oldschoolgamer]

Busty, they prove their technical prowess in MotorStorm, F1, Warhawk and Resistance if that counts. We also seen Naughty Dog's game demo, and Heavenly Sword. They can't just start hyping everything until the system launches globally, they need to go step after step.

Yep. Not to mention that Naughty Dog and Insomniac have an impressive track record.

[AAK]

Who is Aisenherz?

[Ynos Yrros]

Who is Aisenherz?

My german is weak, but doesn't it mean Ice Heart? (EisenHertz?)

[gbovo]

Who is Aisenherz?

He/she claims to be an insider. Don't know if true or not.

[Kittonwy]

Wait until you see Naughty Dogs game....

OMG it's going to be awesome.

[Busty]

Busty, they prove their technical prowess in MotorStorm, F1, Warhawk and Resistance if that counts. We also seen Naughty Dog's game demo, and Heavenly Sword. They can't just start hyping everything until the system launches globally, they need to go step after step.

True. I wasn't trying to damn Sony. Was just venting some frustration. But I agree with you. Motorstorm, F1 and Resistance all look amazing.

I'm in no way doubting Sony's technical prowess, it's just when they have so much ambition in certain areas (their downloadable games have blown me away) they sometimes seem to be asleep at the wheel other times.

LAIR for example. I've always thought that was not only a stunning game but a real technical acheivement. But it wasn't until we all saw the Game Informer shots that people's jaws really dropped (I still can't get over how amazing that sea monster-esque giant looked!

But that's my point. There appears to be too much confusion about what direction they want to go in. BlimBlim recently had LAIR shots released to him by SCEE and some of them where old from the TGS build and out of the four or five shots, really only one could be considered new.

Why aren't they releasing more of what was seen in the GI article? I understand the nature of magazine exlcusives, but there is more impressive stuff to be seen of this game. It's just Sony aren't showing it.

But like I said. I'm not dooming them, I was just venting.

[Haunted]

My german is weak, but doesn't it mean Ice Heart? (EisenHertz?)

It means iron heart - but it's written with an E, not A --> Eisenherz.

/smartass

[Imperial Hot]

It would be a good move for Sony to create a in-house engine for the first-party. That way they can let the developers do what they do best and make good games, and not have to work on the game engines. If this is true, Sony is going to have an easy time just flooding the market with good 1st party games.

[Kabouter]

http://www.loyalty.org/~schoen/germany-5/p1010110.jpg
ICE engine.

[Ynos Yrros]

Yup I agree with you Busty. I'm also disapointed with their marketing performance. I'm trying to understand their reasoning, but it does irritate me. There's absolutely NO media coming out of SCE. No new Lair shots, no Heavenly Sword shots (even though they were sent from Ninja Theory), no Warhawk info, no nothing. It's really hard to anticipate PS3 (I'm in Europe), wothout any new media. It seems that SONY wants to lose fans.

It means iron heart - but it's written with an E, not A --> Eisenherz. /smartass

Doesn't Eis mean ice? Anyway, I was just having fun ;).

[Busty]

Yup I agree with you Busty. I'm also disapointed with their marketing performance. I'm trying to understand their reasoning, but it does irritate me. There's absolutely NO media coming out of SCE. No new Lair shots, no Heavenly Sword shots (even though they were sent from Ninja Theory), no Warhawk info, no nothing. It's really hard to anticipate PS3 (I'm in Europe), wothout any new media. It seems that SONY wants to lose fans.

Exactly. The whole thing is made even worse when you consider we're seeing more from Square Enix regarding FF XIII and that isn't due in Japan until 2008!

Sony are running TV adverts in Japan right now apparently that feature what are said (IIRC) to be real time footage of FF XIII!!!

Sony have a huge wave of 1st and 2nd party stuff coming. It's not a case of 'if' but rather 'when'. And like you said Ynos Yrros, it's there but they aren't showing it. And that's a little worrying. Either it's for one big showing.... or... I don't know.

It would be a good move for Sony to create a in-house engine for the first-party. That way they can let the developers do what they do best and make good games, and not have to work on the game engines. If this is true, Sony is going to have an easy time just flooding the market with good 1st party games.

Agreed. But the idea really becomes exciting when you think about the possibilities of some developer like Factor 5 exchanging tech, tools and know how with someone like Ninja Theory!

This shared environment for a common goal is quite exciting. It could lead to some truly amazing things.

[klee123]

Didn't Phill harrison recently stated that there are over 100 first party titles in production a while ago(or was that during TGS?)? If that's true, then I suspect the ICE engine would be quite useful.

[J-Rzez]

Agreed. But the idea really becomes exciting when you think about the possibilities of some developer like Factor 5 exchanging tech, tools and know how with someone like Ninja Theory! This shared environment for a common goal is quite exciting. It could lead to some truly amazing things.

I believe the Ninja Theory people stated before a long time ago that they were sharing info with other teams like ND and Insomniac... They had access to a lot of stuff, they just don't have the budget itself from Sony, that's all... Insomniac isn't first party either, and they mentioned before about sharing info and such... It's there for first and the infamous second party devs apparently...

It is exciting though, in a sense you can know that the games framework is solid then, and just worry about other things like art and such...

[Rody]

OMG it's going to be awesome.

Absolutely.

[Ynos Yrros]

Didn't Phill harrison recently stated that there are over 100 first party titles in production a while ago(or was that during TGS?)? If that's true, then I suspect the ICE engine would be quite useful.

I don't think it's a particular engine, I think they are working on tools.
Ninja Theory probably contributed alot to PS3's SDK, since they created the NAO32 HDR format.
Point is, that it's not about creating one engine (that would make all the games similiar), it's about optimizing effects to work best on PS3's architecture. So we get HDR optimization, normal mapping optimization, probably volumetric content optimization - that's what ICE is working on, pushing PS3 to it's limits, developing tools that speed up production process.

[speedpop]

Until I see and try out these said brilliant and mind-blowing games, I'll constantly be on the fence in regards to PS3.

[Chrono]

Anything less than crysis-level awesomeness would be disappointing. I expect better, actually. You hear that, ****ers. There's a jungle game, and there's a jungle-friendly south american location in mgs4. Both of them, and I mean both, better and will be superior to cyriss in every possible way. >:(

[Haunted]

Yup I agree with you Busty. I'm also disapointed with their marketing performance. I'm trying to understand their reasoning, but it does irritate me. There's absolutely NO media coming out of SCE. No new Lair shots, no Heavenly Sword shots (even though they were sent from Ninja Theory), no Warhawk info, no nothing. It's really hard to anticipate PS3 (I'm in Europe), wothout any new media. It seems that SONY wants to lose fans. Doesn't Eis mean ice? Anyway, I was just having fun ;).

no problem :) 'Eis' is ice, but 'Eisen' is iron.

[wazoo]

We have already see samples of this if you look at the Jungle trailer.

[Busty]

Anything less than crysis-level awesomeness would be disappointing. I expect better, actually. You hear that, ****ers. There's a jungle game, and there's a jungle-friendly south american location in mgs4. Both of them, and I mean both, better and will be superior to cyriss in every possible way. >:(

*rubs forehead*

I agree that Crysis isn't the be all and end all of 'next gen' gaming. But I'm really not sure what to think about this new gen.

I like what Sony have managed to achieve with their first wave of PS3 games. But at the same time, I kind of see where you're coming from. That this gen has barely started and we're still only really at the tip of the iceberg in terms of tapping the raw power that these consoles have to offer.

I still have high hopes for LAIR. I really think that game could turn alot of people's heads. I really do think that when we see a finished version of LAIR, it'll be largely comparable to the E3 trailers that Sony was showing if it isn't there already.

There, I said it.

[KGKK]

*rubs forehead* I agree that Crysis isn't the be all and end all of 'next gen' gaming. But I'm really not sure what to think about this new gen. I like what Sony have managed to achieve with their first wave of PS3 games. But at the same time, I kind of see where you're coming from. That this gen has barely started and we're still only really at the tip of the iceberg in terms of tapping the raw power that these consoles have to offer. I still have high hopes for LAIR. I really think that game could turn alot of people's heads. I really do think that when we see a finished version of LAIR, it'll be largely comparable to the E3 trailers that Sony was showing if it isn't there already. There, I said it.

I agree.

[antiloop]

I just want something... If they really have 100 games in development would it be so hard to show a screen or two?


BTW did someone mention FFXIII realtime footage? They need to get that up on youtube! :p

[Mana Knight]

Seriously, seriously.... I'm getting pretty sick and f*cking tired about hearing how Sony's 1st and 2nd party stuff is just going to blow everything else out of the water. About how they have an incredible set up for software development and support. But you know what. We need to see it. We really do. The thing with information vaccums is that at first, there's an incredible amount of enthusiasm and positive energy as everyone wants to believe. But very quickly all that positivity turns sour. Sony. You have the development infrastructure, you have the talent and resources. And I'm told (though even I'm starting to doubt it now) the games that no one else can touch. If, at these upcoming Gamers Day, we just get more of Lair and perhaps another ambigious CGI video for another game that's ages away then frankly all this work doesn't mean a great deal. I don't want to start dooming Sony as it's till far too early to do that. But it is worrying that all this chest beating still isn't resulting in concrete games that we can see and look forward too. There's too much about Sony's output that we know nothing about. And though I'm not pushing the panic button yet. I'm made sure I know where it is.... just in case. BTW.... have Insomniac said anything about their engine, the one used for Resistance? Does it have a name, and if so, presumably they are using it for the new Ratchett and Clank? Just curious.

The problem is, Sony faced a lot of criticism for their games at E3 06 not looking as good as the trailers at E3 05 (which weren't exactly in-game at the moment). Sony will eventually achieve similar graphics, but it won't be until towards the end of the development cycle. If Sony were to reveal everything how it is right now, I can guarantee most would be disappointed in the graphics (since the final touches haven't been put on). Also, if anyone may remember in the PS2 case, Sony did not reveal the majority of their first party games until 6 months before release (they did it with all Jak games, Ratchet games, etc.), because games could be delayed for a while (if a development problem occurs), so it's best to reveal games when you know they'll be ready.

[Systems_id]

I really, really hope that Sony gets close to those Killzone renders. I just want to know if that level of animation is possible in a game.

[KGKK]

The problem is, Sony faced a lot of criticism for their games at E3 06 not looking as good as the trailers at E3 05 (which weren't exactly in-game at the moment). Sony will eventually achieve similar graphics, but it won't be until towards the end of the development cycle. If Sony were to reveal everything how it is right now, I can guarantee most would be disappointed in the graphics (since the final touches haven't been put on). Also, if anyone may remember in the PS2 case, Sony did not reveal the majority of their first party games until 6 months before release (they did it with all Jak games, Ratchet games, etc.), because games could be delayed for a while (if a development problem occurs), so it's best to reveal games when you know they'll be ready.

I agree with this. Just look at Microsoft with Too Human. Sony does not want that on their plate to deal with.

[AAK]

I really, really hope that Sony gets close to those Killzone renders. I just want to know if that level of animation is possible in a game.

If WKS TGS trailer was real time... you have nothing to worry about.

[Busty]

If WKS TGS trailer was real time... you have nothing to worry about.

That's a good point. Level 5 have a motion capture studio IIRC. They might even have one, if not the largest in the Japanese development community. So all the animation was directly captured from an actors/performers movements.

I wouldn't be surprised if we see alot more of this sort of thing from Sony. After all, even Ninja Theory use one, though probably less for actual game animation and more for cut scenes.... though I could be wrong. So I don't see why Guerilla wouldn't have one.

I have a feeling that we get a surprise from Level 5 regarding the PS3 this year. Just a hunch/theory I have though.

[ThirdEye]

Please list all of what's known about ICE here for us lazy folks

[Panajev2001a]

Resistance's credits:

Special thanks to the ICE team Mark Cerny, Pål Engstad, Naty Hoffman, Manny Ko, Swaminathan Narayanan, Jason Hughes, Jon Olick, Cort Stratton, David Simpson, Jason Scanlin, Boris Batkin, Alex Hastings, Christer Ericson, Rob Wyatt, Pierre Dufresne, Vassily Filippov, Ben Diamand, John Folliard, Brad Byrd, Keith Bruns, John Morgan, Ben Weston, Eric Lengyel

Mark Cerny is a certified double-genius, btw :).

[Azrael]

Didn't Phill harrison recently stated that there are over 100 first party titles in production a while ago(or was that during TGS?)? If that's true, then I suspect the ICE engine would be quite useful.

Yes, but a very big chunk of those (around 40 IIRC) are downloadable games.

[Ynos Yrros]

SONY is investing massive ammounts of money into Guerilla, I have no doubt that it will be the best looking console FPS when it comes out.

[Diablohead]

I like the fact that an engine can be given out as a nice starting base for games, not every company out there can afford 2 years of engine research and tests as well as making their game as good as budget and time allows.

[Busty]

Yes, but a very big chunk of those (around 40 IIRC) are downloadable games.

Yes, it's thought to be around 40 from outside, independent developers and some from Sony first and second party devs. Factor 5 have two and Insomniac has one. There was even talk that Naughty Dog was doing something.

But to be honest. A hundred games, isn't that much. Considering that Sony has development 'hubs'' in Japan, the US and Europe and are supporting three formats now. Those one hundred games will probably be spread out over the next two/two and a half years or so.

I really don't think that anywhere from 8-12 'AAA' first party games a year for the PS3 would be totally out of the realm of possibility for Sony.

EDIT -

I like the fact that an engine can be given out as a nice starting base for games, not every company out there can afford 2 years of engine research and tests as well as making their game as good as budget and time allows.

Agreed. I like the fact that Sony even cover multiplatform development with the NEON engine.

[Ceb]

Who is Aisenherz?

Axsider?

[element]

I was talking about the ICE ages ago.

if anything it is more of a framework then an engine. like a developer using the framework can see something another team is doing and say 'ohh i like that' and bring it into their game rapidly.

One would assume that ICE would only be accessible by wholly owned studios of SCE, and not independent studios. But I could be wrong.

[Panajev2001a]

I was talking about the ICE ages ago. if anything it is more of a framework then an engine. like a developer using the framework can see something another team is doing and say 'ohh i like that' and bring it into their game rapidly. One would assume that ICE would only be accessible by wholly owned studios of SCE, and not independent studios. But I could be wrong.

How would you compare it to Capcom's MT and Unreal Engine 3 (as far as large frameworks are concerned and not game engines)?

[Haunted]

I really, really hope that Sony gets close to those Killzone renders. I just want to know if that level of animation is possible in a game.

That trailer was 'OMG amazing!!' in May 2005. Today... still great, but definitely not to that extent (obviously).

[Nostromo]

Mark Cerny is a certified double-genius, btw :).

He is..

[Nostromo]

I was talking about the ICE ages ago.

Oh yeah, I remember having watched a documentary about that when I was 5..

[element]

How would you compare it to Capcom's MT and Unreal Engine 3 (as far as large frameworks are concerned and not game engines)?

i wouldn't even know how to answer that, as I have never actually seen any of them sadly. I have only heard bits and pieces about ICE over the last two years.