shinra-bansho
Member
Yes, let's.
I don't remember saying that it was.
The PS3 and 360 are gaming devices as far as I'm aware.
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Can the Vita be salvaged in the West?
- Thread starter ThanosOTitan
- Start date
metalslimer
Member
I don't understand how it's at all hard to grasp that Vita is a fundamentally unappealing product for the current market. Now, I can see why Vita owners would want Sony to stick with said unappealing product but why should Sony dump their time and energy into a failure? If this was their bread and butter, I could see why that would make sense but it's not. And people are asking for price drops to eat even more into the money they're making from this. The excuse of if they are even making a dollar why stop doesn't fly with any kind of business sense. No business's (especially a huge corp like Sony) goal is to merely profit
Expecting the Vita to sell as well as the PS360 now, with the full library of games, home entertainment support and well-established recognition after years of being advertised and available? Nice to see the scrutiny you hold your posts to.
Again, it remains to be seen, Wii U, being a new dedicated gaming device, adds to what I was saying. Let's see.
How is fundamentally unappealing, exactly? It provides better quality games than any other handheld that people have. Why is it now supposed to be beating out console games too? Arguements that only look at only one aspect of things. It's already researched and developed it, and now they are making money of it and the memory cards. Reducing the cost is done through revisions and making money back through software and memory cards, again.
And as you said, they aren't merely looking to make a profit, they are establishing their position in the dedicated handheld market that only Nintendo has a part in otherwise. Dropping out tosses away all progress since the PSP. When all they have to do is invest in more games and design a revision for significant pricedrops to maintain their reputation as a company that supports its products, and credibility for future handheld products. I find it amazing people fail to see this and somehow believe it's in Sony's best interest to shut down the Vita? Lol. That sounds insane to most people who have had the luck of playing a Vita, imagine how it would sound to the makers.
The time to have saved the Vita was during the holiday season with a massive price cut.
But nope, SCEA apparently thought that "added value bundles" would help them sell crazy. Alas, the window has passed, and now we have a system that's probably too deep in the hole in N. America to save, because now Sony needs to focus on PS4.
But nope, SCEA apparently thought that "added value bundles" would help them sell crazy. Alas, the window has passed, and now we have a system that's probably too deep in the hole in N. America to save, because now Sony needs to focus on PS4.
grimshawish
Banned
Vita Thread = Wii U Thread = zzzzzzzzz...
ArtHands
Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch
Just because they are not pressing the panic buttons doesn't mean they are not worrying. It could also mean they have no remaining panic button to push, which from what we have seen for the last year, looks to be the case here. Or probably they don't care. The industry isn't going to sit down and wait for the Vita.
You are banking on hopes on stuffs like more first party exclusives. Sony is preparing their PS4 launch. There is no reason to assume that these will come soon.
Sony isn't a company that will admit their failure. They went total silent for the PSPGo. They hide their vita sales figure from their investors.
shinra-bansho
Member
Now, did I say I expected the Vita to sell as well as the PS3 or 360? For one thing they're aging systems with market saturation issues to contend with, for another they're selling around 6x as much as the Vita in Western markets. So no, I wouldn't expect the Vita to sell as well as them. I would expect a product with sufficient value proposition to sell more than 18K a week in the US and Europe combined; but it seems the Vita doesn't.
But, pray tell, what can we compare the Vita too? Nothing that's selling is apparently comparable?
The Wii U doesn't add anything. You have no point. "The economy" is not the cause for the Wii U's poor sales. Nor is it the cause for the Vita's. The Wii U adds to the point about a product with no market failing in the marketplace.
At its core the Vita is a product misadventure and a failure in market validation.
You made the comparison to PS360 and to show how products do well even in this economy, I explained how that wasn't a great comparison. How Wii U is more relevant since it's newer, less known, and has less of a library. You can make blunt incorrect statements all you like, though.
shinra-bansho
Member
Failing products sure do bring out the crazy in people.
Elaborate on what was incorrect?
That a marketable gaming product should sell more than 18K a week in ~80-90% of the global gaming market?
Feel free to show that "the economy" is why the Wii U and Vita aren't selling well, and not that the core products are simply not broadly appealing. Rather than railing against anyone bursting your fantasy bubble about a resurgent Vita that would be selling like gangbusters without the GFC.
No, it'll be another funky japanese game on the shelf. I don't think 1 title is enough to get the vita moving in the west. There's a much bigger problem with the vita itself and how handheld gaming is percieved here.
KillerTravis
Banned
Probably if they actually market it, the game looks fun.
What are you even talking about (hope you don't mean 18K worldwide), it's selling 15K a week alone in Japan [with no games]. The rest of the world hasn't even had a pricedrop yet and no one said current sales were enough only that there are future chances to turn things around. Initial poor sales don't conclude that the product is unmarketable.
yurinka
Member
shinra-bansho
Member
Good grief.
1) I said ~80-90% of the global market, i.e. Europe and the US.
2) A year of flailing on the market, indicates a poor core value proposition.
3) You can drop the price and double those sales, triple them, and it would still be selling atrociously. Again, indicating a poor core value proposition.
Says your magic 8ball? Value increases with a lowering price. Sony didn't make many changes in the last year in the west, those are still to come. You as others, are jumping the gun with your assumptions put forward as facts.
I'm a Vita bro and I won't be buying SS. After about 20 minutes of gameplay of the demo, it got boring fast. Others' MMV.
Back totally OT. If the Vita becomes a platform for other environments like Android or iOS, it can be salvaged. Otherwise, a miracle with PS4 remote play is the only other long shot to get the Vita off life support. Muramasa and Dragon Crown won't move the units in areas other than Asia.
I find the Vita has a number of Japanese developed games that are quite worthwhile. My gaming tastes are not mainstream, though. The world has shifted to FPSs and thug games. Not my type of games
We are over a year into this things life. Noone is jumping anything at this point. Its been given a good amount of time to show something, and the only thing it has shown is shitty performance in the west. If you want to disagree with its chances of a comeback, then do so. But don't act like people haven't given this handheld and sony a fair shake, and a fair amount of time to show its stuff.
Father_Brain
Banned
I know that certain people love to dismiss me and others who are negative on Vita in sales threads as anti-Vita ideologues or whatnot, but pessimism is the conclusion that all the known facts point to.
There's no factual evidence that price or marketing are Vita's fundamental problems (as opposed to software lineup and product positioning), no factual evidence that any significant resurgence in first- or third-party support is coming, and no factual evidence that the franchise names bandied about as hypothetical system-sellers (GTA, GT, GOW, non-shitty COD) would actually shift much hardware in the current Western handheld market.
When and if there's factual evidence that supports more optimism about Vita's future, I'll reevaluate my conclusions accordingly.
There's no factual evidence that price or marketing are Vita's fundamental problems (as opposed to software lineup and product positioning), no factual evidence that any significant resurgence in first- or third-party support is coming, and no factual evidence that the franchise names bandied about as hypothetical system-sellers (GTA, GT, GOW, non-shitty COD) would actually shift much hardware in the current Western handheld market.
When and if there's factual evidence that supports more optimism about Vita's future, I'll reevaluate my conclusions accordingly.
^ To be specific, we, not necessarily Sony, have no evidence on some of those things (some of those things cost money to research), it doesn't mean they aren't logical explanations just because of a lack of data. To not take other factors into consideration is short-sighted.
What I actually said is that the effects of a pricedrop have not been clearly demonstrated, especially in the west and so saying that cutting the price [by an unspecified amount] would have little effect is jumping the gun, but feel free to argue against whatever point you like. Because all I've been doing is talking about a comeback. And 2-3x the current sales wouldn't be bad, considering what we've heard of how much the current userbase is buying.
Just to remind people, the exact same things were being said about the Vita last year, even before it 'had its chance' like you say, Cipherr.
What I actually said is that the effects of a pricedrop have not been clearly demonstrated, especially in the west and so saying that cutting the price [by an unspecified amount] would have little effect is jumping the gun, but feel free to argue against whatever point you like. Because all I've been doing is talking about a comeback. And 2-3x the current sales wouldn't be bad, considering what we've heard of how much the current userbase is buying.
Just to remind people, the exact same things were being said about the Vita last year, even before it 'had its chance' like you say, Cipherr.
diffusionx
Gold Member
The system is selling to people who want cool console-like games in portable form. There's not many of us, but for those who are, the Vita is the best thing out there. It's way better at it than the PSP was.
Any larger market for this device, doesn't exist. The "larger market" that glommed onto the PSP in 2005 has moved on to tablets and smartphones. They're not coming back. Even if the device cost $5, it's still more than the phone people already have.
My honest opinion is that Sony knew what they were getting into when they launched this thing. Maybe the device is more or less performing as expected. I doubt it's all that expensive to manufacture (it's built on stock cell phone parts) and they make a killing off accessories.
Any larger market for this device, doesn't exist. The "larger market" that glommed onto the PSP in 2005 has moved on to tablets and smartphones. They're not coming back. Even if the device cost $5, it's still more than the phone people already have.
My honest opinion is that Sony knew what they were getting into when they launched this thing. Maybe the device is more or less performing as expected. I doubt it's all that expensive to manufacture (it's built on stock cell phone parts) and they make a killing off accessories.
I went from PSP -> mobile, and I came back and for good reason. I bet a lot of us here did. We're pretty informed though, can't say the same about the rest of the public, which shows how much more marketing there is left to do. I agree that they knew it won't get crazy amounts of attention, even though they expected more - it's clear from how they designed it, it's a total 1-up of everything out there.
diffusionx
Gold Member
You're a hardcore gamer who wants cool console-like games in portable form. Which is my point.
Weren't many PSP gamers? It was hardly commonplace, here anyway. That younger teenager agegroup is certainly mostly lost to phone games in the west but people who have memories playing PSP aren't necessarily lost.
famousmortimer
Banned
Of course the goal is to push profits to an absolute maximum and not just be satisfied by 'merely profit.'
But at the same time you don't dump something that is turning a profit. The idea that sony is going to drop the vita is absurd. They would lose far too much consumer confidence and since it's not actually hemorrhaging money there is absolutely no reason for them to do it.
I agree with the outlook that the Vita is not likely to ever come on strong. If the conversation is "Will the vita be a roaring success?" my answer is no. It won't. But it's also not a failure and it's not something Sony is going to drop. That's what is so absurd about these conversations. I see people say the same thing about the Wii U... that Nintendo should just drop it and start over. Consumer confidence is a big fucking deal. Even if the Vita was losing money, which it isn't, they wouldn't drop it. The fact that it's turning a profit only ensures it that much more.
Sony is hemorrhaging money all over the place. Kaz is smartly cutting sections of their business that are money pits. The Vita isn't that. It's not going to be the 3DS, it's not going to be the PS3. But it will be something that makes money and they support for years to come.
I'm not questioning how in the know you are since you've done enough of that in subsequent posts, but what I'm hearing you say is that Sony is perfectly happy with the Vita's performance and really has to do nothing from here on out since its already a moneymaker (ie Wii)?
Any system that lets me play an original Uncharted game peeks my interest.
MGS 1-3 on the go, where I want, makes it amazing in my book.
Then it lets you play Persona 4 on the go. :drool:
Next it says, 'hey cool, look at this Soul Sacrifice game. Its pretty neat.'
Then toss in dozens of other decent, fun gaming experiences running on a sexy screen.
Seriously, if you like to take your gaming anywhere, its a fantastic system. If you game primary at home on your big screen TV, then its not really needed.
MGS 1-3 on the go, where I want, makes it amazing in my book.
Then it lets you play Persona 4 on the go. :drool:
Next it says, 'hey cool, look at this Soul Sacrifice game. Its pretty neat.'
Then toss in dozens of other decent, fun gaming experiences running on a sexy screen.
Seriously, if you like to take your gaming anywhere, its a fantastic system. If you game primary at home on your big screen TV, then its not really needed.
famousmortimer
Banned
They aren't happy with it. They want it to do better and are working towards that. But what I'm saying is that if the Vita stays on it's current trajctory that Sony will be ok. They aren't dropping the system, they make some money off it, it's not the diaster that needs to be dropped that people here make it out to be. But that doesn't mean they are high fiving in the hallways about how awesome the vita is doing.
And to be completely honest with you guys I knew more about what was going on behind the scenes last year than I do this year... mostly because everyone I know at Sony is working on PS4 stuff... where last year they were working on Vita stuff. Which is why I said earlier that I personally don't expect any big announcements for the vita at E3. Now, i can be completely wrong. I, in no way, have or ever have had a 100% clear picture of what's going on at Sony. I merely have friends and former co-workers who work there and share info with me that they are excited about. I'm also going to end up getting bitched at for talking so much in this thread. But, from my perspective, I'm not hearing much about the Vita right now other than that it's in the black and indie devs love it (which you obviously don't need an inside source to figure out). My feelings on whether it will be a raging success or not are purely conjecture.
But considering that Sony has a console launch and there aren't even rumors about unannounced games at this point I'm 60% certain on my hunch that E3 will not be bringing vita surprises. But who knows, maybe something is cooking in europe other than Tearaway... or Gravity Rush 2 will be announced. Those things are definitely possible. I just haven't heard anything.
metalslimer
Member
There's something called opportunity costs, and Sony investing anything into Vita takes it away from what could be more profitable ventures. Even if Sony does only want to keep Vita alive and is okay with a barely alive system and future PS4 accessory, where is the shelf space going to come from for a essentially dead in the market product. Stores don't share some goodwill to keep a flatlined system rotting on the shelves. And I'd like some info that the software Sony has developed for Vita has been profitable like Gravity Rush.
famousmortimer
Banned
There are many, many, many devices that sell far less than the Vita on store shelves. It's not getting fucking dropped from Walmart or Target or whatever. But if you want to believe that go right ahead.
Why would they do that if its already making enough money?
Evolution_1ne
Banned
It's also been selling at a consistent rate for a while now, unless sales go down seems like there isn't much to worry about. Vitas aren't exactly huge either and stocking none could hurt a store's image.
famousmortimer
Banned
The retail is gonna drop it theory is a non-starter not based in fact in any way. Walmart still has a PS2's in stock. I get that people are going to speculate but some of this stuff is just straight crazy.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Man, I want to buy a 2nd Vita to buy my broken-battery 1st Vita but to tell you folks the truth reading this thread makes me very wary in going with the purchase 
Father_Brain
Banned
Perhaps I should have been a bit clearer. It's not just that there's no factual evidence that supports the conclusions I mentioned; it's that there is factual evidence that supports the exact opposite of those conclusions, particularly (with respect to the first and third) Vita's sub-PSP 2011 holiday sales in NA last year and sub-PSP 2012 holiday sales in Europe.
I'm not sure how this is meant to reinforce, rather than undermine, your argument.
By that logic, no video game system would ever be dropped by retailers. Have your sources at Sony told you that retailers are happy with software and accessory sales, let alone hardware? Especially as your posts have implied that the system's primary software success is on the PSN store.
A related question: What exactly do you expect retailers to cut shelf space for, instead of Vita, in order to make room for Durango/PS4/Disney Infinity? PS3/360/3DS/DS/Wii are all selling much better, PSP and PS2 are already gone from every store I've visited (though perhaps not Wal-Mart, to be fair), and even Wii U is selling better and will at least have 3D Mario and/or Mario Kart as big holiday titles in order to disincentivize retailers from cutting shelf space.
Man, I want to buy a 2nd Vita to buy my broken-battery 1st Vita but to tell you folks the truth reading this thread makes me very wary in going with the purchase
I would get a broken one off ebay, or contact an ebay seller for just the working battery. It looks pretty easy to switch out, but don't come asking me for help...
Looks like a few screws and just that cable:
Otherwise you could wait for a revision, if you are that worried. I wouldn't be, but you'd know that if you read the thread
The first holiday, with mediocre game support, at a stage of minimal awareness and maximum price, it's not the most conclusive of evidence.
People were making the same forecasts and arguements for it's imminent doom for a long time, many were set in their positions from the start and thus didn't give it time like the user was suggesting.
Umm...
Hey famousmortimer has inside info saying although Sony would like the Vita to perform better, they aren't exactly panicking since it's making money anyway.
famousmortimer
Banned
I can't think of a videogame system that was dropped by retailers before they were discontinued by the manufacturers themselves.
I haven't heard a word about how happy or unhappy retailers are from anyone inside sony. And neither have you. And neither has there even been a peep on the internet about a single solitary store somewhere announcing they aren't carrying the Vita anymore. DS space shrinks, the 3DS fills it up. Wii space shrinks, the Wii U fills it up. PS3 space shrinks, the PS4 fills it up. PSP space shrinks, the Vita fills it up. This is how it's always worked. Why would it be any different this time?
But are they panicking enough to cut the price is my question?
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