Lostconfused
Member
Campster said:
But that is exactly what we have now. Every fighter out there has a hardcore following, its just that all the games are niche and there isn't that much cross over between fans apparently.
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Has the Fighting Game Genre Evolved Since PS1?
- Thread starter Barkley's Justice
- Start date
But that is exactly what we have now. Every fighter out there has a hardcore following, its just that all the games are niche and there isn't that much cross over between fans apparently.
DerClockWork
Banned
This thread needs definitely more Killer Instinct:
Some inGame Shots:
Ultra Combos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UgdKBiGgoM
There really should be a KI3...
and no, the most Beat'em'Ups Games are getting slowly, it's not that you break your fingers doing combos anymore, now everything's about timing. Smash Bros. was absolutely fun in N64 days and still is. Mortal Kombat began IMHO to suck since they went 3D. Beat'em'Ups should always be 2D, 3D is mostly messing up with a game. Back then, Beat'em'Ups were about cool finish moves you broke your thumb doing them, now everythings about visuals,visuals and visuals again.
Some inGame Shots:
Ultra Combos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UgdKBiGgoM
There really should be a KI3...
and no, the most Beat'em'Ups Games are getting slowly, it's not that you break your fingers doing combos anymore, now everything's about timing. Smash Bros. was absolutely fun in N64 days and still is. Mortal Kombat began IMHO to suck since they went 3D. Beat'em'Ups should always be 2D, 3D is mostly messing up with a game. Back then, Beat'em'Ups were about cool finish moves you broke your thumb doing them, now everythings about visuals,visuals and visuals again.
The Ultimate Ninja series?LuCkymoON said:
Yeah. They're pretty fun games. It's one where I draw the fine line between "Serious Play" and "Fun Play", because there have been some... interesting moments when playing with friends that would probably frustrate the typical pro-fighting game player (Some hilariously absurd hit detection, some characters being absolutely broken, etc).
But yeah, quite fun to play with friends.
Segata Sanshiro
Member
What do fighting games have to do with Phantasy Star?
FPS games havn't really evolved since tribes, so you can't really single out the fighting game genre like this.
i do consider smash a fighting game, but i call it a 'party fighting game' even though you can still be very serious and competitive about it. those who think smash isn't a fighting game are being very close minded.
one problem i notice is that too many people are stuck in 3D fighters and won't acknowledge the abundance of great 2D fighters that are still getting new games. i guess this is partly due with a lot of these games not coming out outside japan, but it's a shame nonetheless. learn to import. almost always, fighting games hardly require knowledge of the japanese language.
i do consider smash a fighting game, but i call it a 'party fighting game' even though you can still be very serious and competitive about it. those who think smash isn't a fighting game are being very close minded.
one problem i notice is that too many people are stuck in 3D fighters and won't acknowledge the abundance of great 2D fighters that are still getting new games. i guess this is partly due with a lot of these games not coming out outside japan, but it's a shame nonetheless. learn to import. almost always, fighting games hardly require knowledge of the japanese language.
Lostconfused
Member
dfyb said:
That is pretty much the main problem, but then again fighters dont get as much attention in north america anyways. Its impossible to get into 2d fighters in the arcade because you simply cant get any game time before some hardcore player walks over and just beats without end. Not to mention that finding a console version of those game in a store is an incredible pain as well.
jaundicejuice
Member
LuCkymoON said:
They look fun, but there's so damn many it's hard to know which is the one to try.
arhra
Member
Well, the OP is... confusing:jaundicejuice said:
So replying directly to it in a coherent fashion is kinda hard.
Instead we're getting a pretty good discussion on the potential directions the genre (used in the broadest sense - in this case, meaning "games involving two people beating each other up") can evolve, which i don't think anyone is going to complain about.
Personally, i'd love to see a fighter with real physics-based IK animations, where strikes and throws realistically connect and your opponent reacts realistically, rather than the canned animations that are the norm currently. Unfortunately, it'd probably have to play very differently to existing games, and a new franchise with unproven mechanics would be a hard sell to a lot of publishers, so it's probably unlikely to happen
Poor example - the FPS genre supports a huge continuum of styles, ranging from totally unrealistic deathmatch rocket-jump-a-thons like UT, the quake series, etc, to semi-realistic military shooters like rainbow 6, ghost recon, and so forth. The fighting genre doesn't really have anything like the same variety (bar a few experimental gems dating back to the PS1, like Bushido Blade).
:lolarhra said:
virtua fighter is one of your hollywood-realism game like rainbow six vegas
guilty gear, melty blood, smash are some of your crazy arcade games
tekken, street fighter, king of fighters, are some of your middleground fantasy games with a loose foundation in realism.
arhra
Member
Actually, you've probably got a point there. The range of "realism" within the FPS genre has contracted a lot over the past few years. Almost everything now seems to be some variety of "Hollywood realism" or "gritty realistic scifi". Back when Operation Flashpoint and Q3A were sat on shelves next to each other i would have had a point, though
DerClockWork
Banned
Full ACK, but:arhra said:
I found for example the Def Jeam Series to be quite different, I played it the first time 1 month ago. While I really find the whole ghetto scene and rap music etc. etc. laughable in combination of the fistfighting, the gameplay was very very different than the other BeatEmUps I saw and I kinda liked it.
There'll be a new bleach game for the Wii, which looks promising with the whole WiiMote waggling, I never played a bleach BeatEmUp (I wonder why the game series is so popular, whatev.) but the whole Sword WiiMote waggling could do it for me, again something which could resolve in a different gameplay.
Lastly, I don't think Beat'em'Ups are that popular today they were back then.
Also, you could say that about every Genre. Was there really a big "evolution" of FPS ? Sports Games ? Racing Games ? Simulations ? Come on, we're seeing CnC 3, wow the newest addition is a third race starcraft had years before. The only big genre which raised IMO are the stealth / 3rd Person games. What also happened to platformer, I don't see any kind of "evolution". Honestly, I would prefer successors/even remakes of really good old games more than some "new games taking a genre into the next step", I want KI3, StarCraft 2, Quake 5, Mario X and a new Seiken Densetsu Sequel 2, these games have proven the definition of classic and good so why should these be games treated lower because they're no "evolution". Some games are perfect.
Green Shinobi
Banned
Not being a huge fighting fan, I'm confused by the mention of "dial-a-combo."
I can see what people mean in games like Mortal Kombat, where combos really are just AABXYABYX, but surely when directional presses are also involved, that isn't a dial-a-combo, right? I'm thinking like Soul Calibur.
What is an example of a combo system that isn't "dialed in?"
I can see what people mean in games like Mortal Kombat, where combos really are just AABXYABYX, but surely when directional presses are also involved, that isn't a dial-a-combo, right? I'm thinking like Soul Calibur.
What is an example of a combo system that isn't "dialed in?"
Shouta
Member
Green Shinobi said:
A combo that isn't Dialed-in is one that uses frame advantage, position advantage, or some sort of timing that connects the moves together, if you want to loosely define it. Dialed-in Combos are ones that automatically launch all the hits as you press the button, directional presses don't matter.
bumpkin
Member
Best. Finishing move. Ever.DerClockWork said:This thread needs definitely more Killer Instinct:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_V1lYUDXYgg
I miss Killer Instinct... Too bad we'll probably never see another.
Manmademan
Member
Strider2K99 said:
I was mostly going from memory, so there might have been errors. Here are exact arcade dates from The Killer List of Videogames. Arcade Releases only. Street Fighter II hit in 1991, and Street Fighter III Hit the arcades in February 1997.
Street Fighter II champion Edition- 1992
Street Fighter II Turbo 1992
Super Street Fighter II 1993
Super Street Fighter II Turbo 1994
Street Fighter Alpha 1995
Street Fighter The Movie: The Game 1995
Street Fighter EX 1996
Street Fighter Alpha 2 1996
Xmen Vs. Street Fighter 1996
Street Fighter EX Plus 1997- Same year
Marvel Super Heroes vs. Street Fighter 1997- Same Year
Marvel vs. Capcom 1998-After
Street Fighter Alpha 31998-After
Marvel Vs. Capcom 2 2000-After
So, not much difference, really. MVC 1-2 and SFA Came out afterwards, but I left out Street Fighter EX Plus, as well as Marvel Superheroes (1995) and Xmen: Children of the Atom (1994) which while they arent technically street fighter games, they are remarkably similar in terms of play style and are essentially identical to Xmen vs. SF and MSH vs. Street Fighter games that came a little later.
In essence, the formula had been REALLY, REALLY tired by the time SFIII hit and gamers were looking for something different. No one can really dispute that.
donkey show
Member
As someone who owns Bleach Wii already, it's nothing special. What could have possibly been a promising game engine failed in its implementation. Instead, you get a rather half ass unnecessary waggle fest that doesn't capture Bleach fighting at all and is rather sluggish. It's a lot better than the amalgamated pile of ass that was Bleach GC, but the only real way to enjoy the game is to get drunk and play with a bunch of friends. Besides that, the combat is tedious, eventually dull, and you get a really sore wrist out of it. Then again, I'm consider myself somewhat a fighting game elitist, so take what you want. I absolutely love the Bleach DS series though.DerClockWork said:
The game would probably be better off in the vein of the Budokai Tenkaichi series.
BlackTyrano
Member
Anyone can compete in a fighting game with people of the same level. People who only play against the cpu aren't even beginning to understand the basic fundamentals of fighting games, therefore their opinions on them are dubious. Would you like it if someone who just dicks around in your favorite genre for 3 minutes said it was stagnant?
The Take Out Bandit
Member
DerClockWork said:
No.
This thread already has plenty shitty.
Fighting game developers need to focus on providing on-line experiences in today's market. Arcades are dead in most of the civilized world and arcade style gaming is dying off to be replaced with overblown spectacles. Faux movies masquerading as video games as a thinly veiled justification of inflated hardware and software prices.
I've been weighing the merit of buying shitass Tekken 5 for the PS3.
Con: It's shitass Tekken.
Pro: It has on-line play.
If I am to vote with my dollar, then I reckon that requires swallowing a whole plate of feces in order to send the rest of the industry the message that I want online fighting games already; god damn it!
Although I'm content to just wait on Soul Calibur 4. This way I can say, "No sir I don't want your shitass Tekken, but yes I would like more online fighting games please!"
Fourth Storm
Member
Man, I would love to see a new Tobal. There was a game with some fresh ideas (and an awesome Yasunori Mitsuda soundtrack). Unfortunately, I never had the cash to import Tobal 2...although from what I hear it is amazing.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
Shenmue's fighting engine was interesting. Fluid, good handling of the space around Ryo etc. I always wanted that spun out into a fighter, or a 3d Streets of Rageish kinda game.Barkley's Justice said:
The Take Out Bandit said:
Console online fighting(with any legit fighting game) is terrible. It's a good gimmick to sell fighting games, and that's all.
Also you saying, "Shit-ass Tekken" promotes you to fighting game newb status. Another nail in the coffin is you looking forward to Soul Calibur 4. Ugh.
Fighting games are ALWAYS going to be a niche market. Deal with it.
-A
MightyHedgehog
Member
The early to mid 90s says that's not true. They only became a niche genre once they forgot how they got people hooked on them in the first place and just focused on catering to the hardcore fan.A_Rival said:
Hcoregamer00
The 'H' stands for hentai.
Why is no one talking about King of Fighters XI, or the series in general. It is a perfect example of how evolution happens slowly, but they happen gradually instead of introducing drastically new stuff.
Green Shinobi
Banned
Get lost, junior.A_Rival said:
DerClockWork said:This thread needs definitely more Killer Instinct:
Some inGame Shots:
Ultra Combos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UgdKBiGgoM
There really should be a KI3...
and no, the most Beat'em'Ups Games are getting slowly, it's not that you break your fingers doing combos anymore, now everything's about timing. Smash Bros. was absolutely fun in N64 days and still is. Mortal Kombat began IMHO to suck since they went 3D. Beat'em'Ups should always be 2D, 3D is mostly messing up with a game. Back then, Beat'em'Ups were about cool finish moves you broke your thumb doing them, now everythings about visuals,visuals and visuals again.
Super Ultra Combos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxGpChPdJQQ
haha, i know 21 hits was really something back in the 90s, but when i look back at it, the combos just looks so... weird
Hcoregamer00
The 'H' stands for hentai.
MarkMan said:
This confirms it, I am the only person on this forum that enjoyed SC3.
The fighting genre has evolved since PS1. Thing is I feel developers just focus on the hardcore market when it comes to these games. Call it a fighter or not, but Smash Bros. is something all fighting genre developers should keep a keen eye on. The game is fun for casuals and hardcore players alike, the gulf isn't that huge when it comes to skill, and there's not an absurd amount of combos to learn.
If there is one genre I wished would come back to prominence is this one, because I've always liked it and its given me unlimited hours of playing time with my buddies on how competitive we are. I don't mind taking in the time to let a game like Virtua Fighter, Soul Calibur, or Tekken sink in so I can truly learn the game appropriately. But the way these games go bye they just ignore that market where folks just want to play for a couple of minutes and feel like they've done something.
Maybe an entire re-writing of game play when it comes to this genre is necessary, I'm not sure.
If there is one genre I wished would come back to prominence is this one, because I've always liked it and its given me unlimited hours of playing time with my buddies on how competitive we are. I don't mind taking in the time to let a game like Virtua Fighter, Soul Calibur, or Tekken sink in so I can truly learn the game appropriately. But the way these games go bye they just ignore that market where folks just want to play for a couple of minutes and feel like they've done something.
Maybe an entire re-writing of game play when it comes to this genre is necessary, I'm not sure.
Green Shinobi
Banned
No one is talking about Soul Calibur 3 when referring to the series as a good one.
Obviously 1 and 2 are where it's at.
Obviously 1 and 2 are where it's at.
You had Kung fu and eventually street fighter then street fighter 2/mortal kombat/samurai showdown 2d fighting pretty much hit it's peak. I suppose you had minor additions with parrying/super moves eventually but everything 2d still basically plays like it's 1999 still.
3d fighting games haven't progressed much . Virtua fighter started it and held that mold until dead or alive 2 added massive areas to fight in and powerstone made it simpler and more destructable. Soul calibur added weapons. It's basically stuck to that same mold since with most 3d fighters just taking elements of all 3.
3d fighting games haven't progressed much . Virtua fighter started it and held that mold until dead or alive 2 added massive areas to fight in and powerstone made it simpler and more destructable. Soul calibur added weapons. It's basically stuck to that same mold since with most 3d fighters just taking elements of all 3.
Lostconfused said:
Problem is, pretty much everything that makes a fighter good is exactly what the mainstream public doesn't want. Deep intricate systems? Nobody wants to deal with that between shots of jack daniels and their football game. Spending years(and I do mean real years) honing your execution? Many would rather do something more productive, like work their day job.
The whole reason SMASH brothers has it so good is the fact that the game is so configurable; in it's default state, it's a goofy, random mess where nobody knows what's going on(or cares) but it's a lot of fun in a quick burst. A hardcore player, however, can chisel the game down to its bare essentials and eliminate the randomness that a lot of nubs rely on to win.
I don't get where people have any inclination that Smash isn't being taken seriously by fighting gamers. Evo2K added it to their roster, and there's absolutely no inclination that it'll be taken out. In fact, everyone was PLEASED at the AWESOME tournament action during the finals.
Smash isn't a perfect fighter by any means, but it's a step in the right direction in terms of being appealing to the mass market. I don't think there's any hope for Street Fighter. :lol
-A
GoofsterStud
Member
The evolutionary step forward was POWERSTONE 1. Using backgrounds and the foreground as weapons. The ability to interact with everything, was revolutionary. IE Jumping off walls, jumping off pulls, etc. Closes thing to true interaction with the environment in a fighter and the next step forward. Though in some ways it was a step back. Man it needs a sequel to the fighting style of one, and a separate sequel to the multi-player madness of 2.
What are you guys talking about.
It started with the Sega Saturn and ended with it.
Arcade ports (perfect ports) of the capcom vs series
Perfect ports of Neo Geo games
Favorite Fighters
Virtua Fighter 2
Virtua On (I consider it a fighter) I like the first better.
Fighting Vipers
Fighters Megamix (I want a sequal)
Last Bronx
The Saturn had better fighters in my opinion.
The only real upgrade to the fighting genre has been better graphics and slight tweaking if you asked me. It really hasn't evolved, probably why it's lost popularity. (FPS is in the same boat soon, so whatever evolves next will be the next big thing for years, looking at the wii it might be non FPS shooters.)
Try Diehard the Arcade (Sega Saturn) It worked well for the time period, it was quite well done. Also Guardian Heroes is close (3 axis sidescroller) It is the highest evolution of Sidescroller/brawlers.
What are you guys talking about.
It started with the Sega Saturn and ended with it.
Arcade ports (perfect ports) of the capcom vs series
Perfect ports of Neo Geo games
Favorite Fighters
Virtua Fighter 2
Virtua On (I consider it a fighter) I like the first better.
Fighting Vipers
Fighters Megamix (I want a sequal)
Last Bronx
The Saturn had better fighters in my opinion.
The only real upgrade to the fighting genre has been better graphics and slight tweaking if you asked me. It really hasn't evolved, probably why it's lost popularity. (FPS is in the same boat soon, so whatever evolves next will be the next big thing for years, looking at the wii it might be non FPS shooters.)
Dina said:
Try Diehard the Arcade (Sega Saturn) It worked well for the time period, it was quite well done. Also Guardian Heroes is close (3 axis sidescroller) It is the highest evolution of Sidescroller/brawlers.
titiklabingapat
Member
Everything Nintendo makes is a non-____ nowadays.
I don't think Nintendo even calls Smash Brothers a fighting game, the same way they insist on Metroid being a FPA rather than a FPS.
I don't think Nintendo even calls Smash Brothers a fighting game, the same way they insist on Metroid being a FPA rather than a FPS.
karasu said:
Your minority point is true, but since I started playing games competitively in the fps genre I've realized it's this group that usually understands the game mechanics the best. Casuals don't see the titles like the extremes in this group do so they aren't necessarily the best judge of whether a title is crap or not crap at all.
I liked SC3 but I found both it and SC2 to be crap to the original. Give me TTT, T5 DR, VF2 and SC and I will be happy when it comes to 3d fighters the rest are uninspiring garbage in which cheese ruins any elements of fun. Power Stone could work but capcom really needs to tighten it up and make some aspects more refined it's just too much of a party title to me instead of a fighter that's fun at parties.
The fighting game genre has evolved, but much like other ex-popular genres, people are getting bored of fighting games. It's disappointing, but then again I didn't wish for the beat-em-up genre to die. Eventually all will be rolled up into the 'actionadventure' genre, where a form of fighting is like a fighting game (like Yakuza or Shenmue). :|
DerClockWork
Banned
:lol :lol :lol :lol :lolOblivion said:
haha :lol , thx for thatbumpkin said:Best. Finishing move. Ever.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_V1lYUDXYgg
I miss Killer Instinct... Too bad we'll probably never see another.
Hmmmdonkey show said:
'kay, it's off my buy-list wow... your post makes me really want to urinate you in the faceThe Take Out Bandit said:
looks very boring.... GIANT FLASHING TEXT OVER THE WHOLE SCREEN WITH CHEAP J-ROCK = DO NOT WANT! and sry some of these combos are only 1 move 90 times... I stick with my KI, it also looks better, I begin to hate this 0815 anime characters, they look all the same. One move alone can do 99999999999999 combo-hits... wow...hteng said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Hi4kdDa4E4 , this is superior in every way and it's a home-video a guy made with a camera and the mic near his controller so you can hear how cool it would be if you actually could push these buttons
Manmademan
Member
Dina said:
Sounds like you want God Hand
Suburban Cowboy
Member
People are actually claiming Smash Bros isnt a fighting game... wtf?
Lack of respect for the nuances of skilled play, or just ignorance of the game?
Lack of respect for the nuances of skilled play, or just ignorance of the game?
i dunno, i consider smash bros more of a real fighting game than soulcalibur 3.
I don't get the smash bros hate either. The game is fun, competitively balanced, has a pretty good community of players, and so on. I got a lot of respect for the smash series and I know that a lot of other competitive players also believe the game is worthy of being at Evo, but I guess the ones who just talk the talk but don't walk the walk are the people who slam it.
I don't get the smash bros hate either. The game is fun, competitively balanced, has a pretty good community of players, and so on. I got a lot of respect for the smash series and I know that a lot of other competitive players also believe the game is worthy of being at Evo, but I guess the ones who just talk the talk but don't walk the walk are the people who slam it.
Reno said:i dunno, i consider smash bros more of a real fighting game than soulcalibur 3.
I don't get the smash bros hate either. The game is fun, competitively balanced, has a pretty good community of players, and so on. I got a lot of respect for the smash series and I know that a lot of other competitive players also believe the game is worthy of being at Evo, but I guess the ones who just talk the talk but don't walk the walk are the people who slam it.
I might have to disagree with you there chief...
KingJ2002
Member
The 3D portion evolves all the time... re-balancing, destructive and interactive environments, and new fighting styles.
the 2D portion on the other hand hasnt seen a jump since the dreamcast era.
parrying
just defense
3 vs. 3 fighting
thats why many people are dreaming for a new 2D street fighter and fatal fury
the 2D scene is on life support right now because it's dream match after dream match... no company seems to want to take the plunge to create an actual franchise for 2D gaming.
except SNK (KOF) AND ARC System Works (Guilty Gear)... but even those franchises are going 3D in some shape or form.
and lets be honest... 2D fighters should go the way of the dodo. what can they improve on aside from rebalancing and adding characters?
if SF4 was released in 2D they might as well put the series back in the vault... it wont put the series... or the genre back in million seller status.
same goes with SNKP... i thought it was cool with their dedication to 2D... but considering where they are and their desire to make money worldwide... staying niche isnt going to help them. KOF would play better in 3D if they took the time to work on a decent system for a 3D title.
they're doing it with sam sho... and now they need to do it with fatal fury as well.
and make metal slug a 2.5D game.
it would just work better and they can incorporate the benefits of using 3D graphics.
the 2D portion on the other hand hasnt seen a jump since the dreamcast era.
parrying
just defense
3 vs. 3 fighting
thats why many people are dreaming for a new 2D street fighter and fatal fury
the 2D scene is on life support right now because it's dream match after dream match... no company seems to want to take the plunge to create an actual franchise for 2D gaming.
except SNK (KOF) AND ARC System Works (Guilty Gear)... but even those franchises are going 3D in some shape or form.
and lets be honest... 2D fighters should go the way of the dodo. what can they improve on aside from rebalancing and adding characters?
if SF4 was released in 2D they might as well put the series back in the vault... it wont put the series... or the genre back in million seller status.
same goes with SNKP... i thought it was cool with their dedication to 2D... but considering where they are and their desire to make money worldwide... staying niche isnt going to help them. KOF would play better in 3D if they took the time to work on a decent system for a 3D title.
they're doing it with sam sho... and now they need to do it with fatal fury as well.
and make metal slug a 2.5D game.
it would just work better and they can incorporate the benefits of using 3D graphics.
karasu
Member
LCGeek said:
Being an 'extremist' of a particular group doesn't make you a better judge of quality or anything like that. It only means that you're really good at exploiting the current system. Regardless of how antiquated that system may or may not be. I won't even pretend to understand all of the crazy things that competitive players can do. I just have no interest in playing a game that way. You don't have to travel across the world and compete in codified tournaments to realize that fighting games haven't changed all that much over the last few years. You know. If my competition was limited to the computer I'd still realize that floaty falls and the scarcely 3-dimensional set up is getting a little stale.
I mean Jesus, just look at zoning. It's been over ten years and I can still only back dash in straight line. @_@ As fun as games like Tekken and VF are, options concerning movement are limited to some seriously wonky video game logic. Circling your opponent should not be useless. It's like fighting 101. It can't be that hard to implement.(8-way run notwithstanding) Has environmental interaction progressed since VF3? Other than the juggles getting longer or more damaging I mean. I just want a fighter where the realities of human body mechanics are taken into account. Something nuanced, and immersive. I want a complex system of power distribution. Maybe I follow up an attack too quickly and the power is diminished because the character didn't sink his feet properly. I want to guard in more than two dimensions. I want to get fucked up for guarding right when I should have guarded left.
Even energy bars are outdated in my opinion. No matter how low my energy bar is, I'm not gonna be knocked unconscious by a poke! It's so absurd. A fighting games most major evolution is still in the two extra characters added to the roster. The system, and a crapload of the animations,are still roughly the same as they were in 1994.