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Chris1964 · Nov 23, 2009

I had noticed Izumo 2 at gamefaqs but it's a budget re-release of Izumo 2 which had sold 5.525 first week according to Media-Create. Gamefaqs often have one week errors with release dates but it must not be this game.

Thanks for the help.

Flachmatuch · Nov 23, 2009

bcn-ron said:
You have a very narrow view of who benefits from features. Online gaming isn't just something a few gamers desire. It's the new frontier for marketing and staving off the used market. Community building and trophies 'n'shit make you keep your games longer, and makes you respect them more, and that's a benefit to every publisher, completely independent of the perceived demand from the userbase.

They incorporate community in games in other ways though. Pokemon for example is very much the definition of "community game", except that its social network layer is based on schools and not an online infrastructure

It's not that Nintendo wouldn't be better off with that. They would. It's just one in a list of items they don't pursue because they can't. They are still too small a company to put serious manpower on such features.

If they were your average company, they'd try to *buy* that knowledge though. They certainly have the money to do that, but I don't think they will. They could spend the same amount of money that Sony spend on PSN, it's not like Sony as a company had any more experience in that stuff before they started to do it. That they aren't doing this has to stem from their "corporate culture" imo.

Nintendo hasn't expanded to support its newfound success -- bigger audiences are more diverse audiences with a wider spectrum of demands. Instead of getting invested into adequate growth, Nintendo's stockpile of money is just sitting there, producing no returns. It's as if there was no trust to anyone but the already established execs, and they'd rather squander their current opportunity than let potentially unworthy rookies work with their first-party IPs.

That's a strategy that has been incredibly successful until now though, all through the life of the company. They do take risks, it's just not the kind of risk that a generalist manager with an MBA leading his fifth company or a simple minded technician or forum poster would take (or even realise)

What they're doing is pretty much organic growth and nothing else, and I think that's pretty awesome. I'm not saying they're doing this because they're so nice and believe in capitalism, but this *is* in fact how companies should work. Mergers and moneyhats are anti-competitive and distort and degrade the market, and the current problems with gaming (and most other markets actually, not just gaming) are in no small part thanks to this. If people actually believed in capitalism, buying up other companies would be illegal, it's the number one anti-capitalist market distorting thing you can do. I'm not saying that Nintendo aren't doing this because they're so angelic, it's just that I don't understand how anyone could reasonably believe that moneyhats or buying into markets or buying competencies isn't bad.

And lastly...this obviously doesn't work. Everyone who's doing it is losing money. I mean, wtf. There's a certain speed with which a company's activities can grow organically...maybe Nintendo are not even growing as fast as that, but just spending money on stuff obviously does not work.

Road · Nov 23, 2009

Chris1964 said:
I had noticed Izumo 2 at gamefaqs but it's a budget re-release of Izumo 2 which had sold 5.525 first week according to Media-Create. Gamefaqs often have one week errors with release dates but it must not be this game.

Thanks for the help.

Maybe: http://news.dengeki.com/soft/info/detail/17880/ ?

timetokill · Nov 24, 2009

bcn-ron said:
You have a very narrow view of who benefits from features. Online gaming isn't just something a few gamers desire. It's the new frontier for marketing and staving off the used market. Community building and trophies 'n'shit make you keep your games longer, and makes you respect them more, and that's a benefit to every publisher, completely independent of the perceived demand from the userbase.

It's not that Nintendo wouldn't be better off with that. They would. It's just one in a list of items they don't pursue because they can't. They are still too small a company to put serious manpower on such features.

Nintendo hasn't expanded to support its newfound success -- bigger audiences are more diverse audiences with a wider spectrum of demands. Instead of getting invested into adequate growth, Nintendo's stockpile of money is just sitting there, producing no returns. It's as if there was no trust to anyone but the already established execs, and they'd rather squander their current opportunity than let potentially unworthy rookies work with their first-party IPs.

Does the majority of Nintendo's target care or even use online in this way? Nintendo has already stressed that they are trying to get their consumers to go online, but it's not easy because each demographic uses the internet in different ways, or doesn't use it at all.

Even with their minimal online system now, they partnered with Gamespy. Why? Because Nintendo's core competencies do not lie in huge networking platforms.

Nintendo uses its "stockpile" as a means to get through the lean years. They invest a lot into R&D, most of which has no returns, all the time. They are incredibly risk-averse, yes, but it also means nothing they do will wipe out the profits they've made over the last decade (see: Sony).

The Xbox360's online is awesome for motivating its core consumers into buying games. This is obvious. But Nintendo doesn't have the same consumer base. It's not a dominating majority of 12-30 year old males. Their strategy, looking at the environment when Wii was coming out and into the near future from now, involves most people not having HDTVs, most people not using online for gaming (or at least not in significant amounts), etc.

As far as the "new frontier" for marketing, why not bring up Nintendo's use of women's shows like Ellen, or huge appearances on the Today Show, setting them up in retirement homes. For a very long time Nintendo has supplied children's hospitals with gaming systems. Nintendo is in places Xbox360 and PS3 would make no sense in -- and that is what Nintendo was aiming for. Nintendo has made them irrelevant as competition in those spaces because those audiences don't even consider Xbox360 and PS3 as being for them. What about those new frontiers in marketing?

It's amusing that you bring up the "bigger audiences are more diverse audiences with a wider spectrum of demands" argument. Nintendo has done more to really pinpoint what diverse audiences want than any other company in the gaming space. Again you seem to be confusing what the core (you) want and what the expanded audiences and MOST want/need.

In short: You have a ridiculous tunnel vision and you think that whatever features YOU want are the most important and should be done "just because," with no regard for cost/benefit analysis or even value analysis.

Finally: How do achievements and trophies make you "respect them more." Are you talking about the games or the developers? and in either case, how?

donny2112 · Nov 24, 2009

Kurosaki Ichigo said:
Going by the dates:

Xbox Halo History Pack Platinum Collection
PS2 Generation of Chaos Desire
Didn't find the Izumi title, there's one called Izumo for PS2 but not that week (the one before)

edit: oh beaten to halo

I have the third one as NDS Otona no DS Mystery: Idumi Jiken File. Idumi/Izumi.

Edit:
What Road said.

Rolf NB · Nov 24, 2009

Flachmatuch said:
They incorporate community in games in other ways though. Pokemon for example is very much the definition of "community game", except that its social network layer is based on schools and not an online infrastructure

True, true.

Flachmatuch said:
<...>
What they're doing is pretty much organic growth and nothing else, and I think that's pretty awesome. I'm not saying they're doing this because they're so nice and believe in capitalism, but this *is* in fact how companies should work. Mergers and moneyhats are anti-competitive and distort and degrade the market, and the current problems with gaming (and most other markets actually, not just gaming) are in no small part thanks to this.
<...>

And lastly...this obviously doesn't work. Everyone who's doing it is losing money. I mean, wtf. There's a certain speed with which a company's activities can grow organically...maybe Nintendo are not even growing as fast as that, but just spending money on stuff obviously does not work.

I didn't mean to suggest they should buy out studios and exclusives and whatnot, but hire staff. Move a few trusted employees up the chain and make them producers, too. Miamoto can only oversee so many games at once. If they had more internal teams, they could produce a wider range of games and it wouldn't be such a big deal anymore if one or two games don't catch on with a significant portion of the audience. See the anguish about Wii Music and Animal Crossing not selling like they were supposed to. A couple other first-party games to fall back onto would have helped, but there weren't any available hands to produce them.

The recent Anouma interview really is telling. Nobody at Nintendo dares infringe on Mr Miamoto's turf by rising to the same role and taking on the same responsibilities. I won't say it's wrong to put your bets on him, but if it's only him, you're limiting the output of the company as a whole.

bttb · Nov 24, 2009

Chris1964 · Nov 24, 2009

Previous handhelds launches

2001.03.21 (Game Boy Advance) - 611,504
2004.11.21 (Nintendo DS) - 441,485
2007.09.20 (PSP-2000) - 263,538
2008.11.01 (Nintendo DSi) - 170,779
2004.12.12 (PSP-1000) - 166,074
1998.10.21 (Game Boy Color) - 155,774
2008.10.16 (PSP-3000) - 155,720
2005.09.13 (Game Boy Micro) - 148,117
2000.12.09 (WonderSwan Color) - 145,975
2003.02.14 (Game Boy Advance SP) - 117,859
2009.11.21 (Nintendo DSi LL) - 103,524
1999.03.04 (WonderSwan) - 102,655
2006.03.02 (Nintendo DS Lite) - 67,653
2002.07.12 (SwanCrystal) - 30,692
2009.11.01 (PSP Go) - 28,275
1998.10.28 (Neo Geo Pocket) - 21,471
1999.03.19 (Neo Geo Pocket Color) - 18,809

Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew · Nov 24, 2009

cvxfreak said:
Good point, and one I particularly like because I'm a frequent flyer. I specifically do not use Southwest Airlines because it doesn't serve my needs as someone who needs to fly internationally. I also value a seating assignment, making other airlines' more traditional practices to be more valuable. That makes me the equivalent of a 360/PS3 gamer in airline terms. :lol

Well, you deserve it!!

Did you end up buying Bayonetta?

Road · Nov 25, 2009

Famitsu top 10 and Sinobi info for Nov 16-22:

01. [NDS] Tomodachi Collection (Nintendo) - 59,000 / 1,641,000
02. [WII] Wii Fit Plus (Nintendo) - 42,000 / 894,000
03. [NDS] Pokemon Heart Gold / Soul Silver (Pokemon) - 40,000 / 2,985,000
04. [WII] Taiko no Tatusjin Wii: Dodoon to 2 Yome! (Bandai Namco Games) - 29,000
05. [360] Left 4 Dead 2 (Electronic Arts) - 28,000
06. [NDS] Inazuma Eleven 2: Kyoui no Shinryakusha - Fire / Blizzard (Level 5) - ?
07. [NDS] Mario & Sonic at the Vancouver Olympics　(Nintendo) - 26,000
08. [PSP] J-League Pro Soccer Club wo Tsukurou! 6: Pride of J (Sega) - ?
09. [PS3] World Soccer Winning Eleven 2010 (Konami) - ?
10. [NDS] Dorabase 2: Nettou Ultra Stadium (Bandai Namco Games) - 19,000

[PS3] Ratchet & Clank: Future 2 (SCE) - 15,000
[WII] The Calling: Kuroki Chakushin (Hudson) - 2,300
[PSP] Jack & Daxter: Elf to Itachi no Daibouken (SCE) - 1,100

DSiLL 103,524
DSi 32,000
DSL 2,700
PSP 33,000
PSP go 4,800
PS3 29,000
WII 29,000

schuelma · Nov 25, 2009

Wow, PS3 fell a bit more than I thought it would. Edit- well, not that far- it was lower on Famitsu last week as well.

Taiko Wii disappointment, at least initially. Namco has projected 500K. We'll see how it does for the holidays.

Spiegel · Nov 25, 2009

Wow, everything bombed this week

Laguna · Nov 25, 2009

So Mario and Sonic sold more its second week than the first?

PSPgo vs DSiLL is just pitifull. The only interesting "battle" between those two is how many weeks Go will need to sell as much as DSiLL did its first two days.

schuelma · Nov 25, 2009

Laguna said:
So Mario and Sonic sold more its second week than the first?
.

No, this is the DS version.

Laguna · Nov 25, 2009

schuelma said:
No, this is the DS version.

Ok, thanks. there was no plattform listed at first.

slaughterking · Nov 25, 2009

Really decent debut for L4D. I can see the 360 outselling the Go this week.

ccbfan · Nov 25, 2009

Laguna said:
So Mario and Sonic sold more its second week than the first?

PSPgo vs DSiLL is just pitifull. The only interesting "battle" between those two is how many weeks Go will need to sell as much as DSiLL did its first two days.

I think everyone(well almost) knew PSP Go was gonna bomb especially in Japan.

1. Japan even with its great broadband services aren't the biggest online users.
2. The price.
3. The PSP 3000 actually just had a price drop.
4. People actually buy games for the PSP in Japan. How well do you think they're gonna take a system that can't play their games and cost much more than the 3000.

This plus the failure its been in U.S and Europe. I don't think anyone should be surprised that it mega bombed in Japan.

Spiegel · Nov 25, 2009

Comparisons by Sinobi:

360

L4D1 - 17k
L4D2 - 28k

PS3

Ratchet - 11k
Ratchet 2 - 15k

Wii

Taiko - 115k
Taiko2 - 29k

NDS

Mario & Sonic - 91k
Mario & Sonic Winter Games - 26k
Dorabase - 96k
Dorabase 2 - 19k

Allan Holdsworth · Nov 25, 2009

Pokemon/Wii Fit drop ~20%
Todomachi holds steady.

DMeisterJ · Nov 25, 2009

PS3 only has a couple more weeks to hold onto before FFXIII and the huuuuge boost that will bring.

jesusraz · Nov 25, 2009

That Taiko figure is really quite shocking. Hopefully sales continue at the same steady pace as its predecessors.

Laguna · Nov 25, 2009

ccbfan said:
I think everyone(well almost) knew PSP Go was gonna bomb especially in Japan.

1. Japan even with its great broadband services aren't the biggest online users.
2. The price.
3. The PSP 3000 actually just had a price drop.
4. People actually buy games for the PSP in Japan. How well do you think they're gonna take a system that can't play their games and cost much more than the 3000.

This plus the failure its been in U.S and Europe. I don't think anyone should be surprised that it mega bombed in Japan.

This are all points that came to mind but honestly I never had expected that it would be such a disaster.

schuelma · Nov 25, 2009

DMeisterJ said:
PS3 only has a couple more weeks to hold onto before FFXIII and the huuuuge boost that will bring.

Actually it has a month, and it will lose ground to Wii in that time period. NSMB Wii is going to be massive.

schuelma · Nov 25, 2009

jesusraz said:
That Taiko figure is really quite shocking. Hopefully sales continue at the same steady pace as its predecessors.

Yeah. A few thoughts. One, this one wasn't released right in the middle of the big holiday rush. Maybe that had something to do with it. Also, maybe the Wii audience just doesn't buy yearly upgrades like other userbases do. IIRC the Family Ski sequel bombed and the Power Pro and WE series haven't done any better than when they were first released.

cw_sasuke · Nov 25, 2009

jesusraz said:
That Taiko figure is really quite shocking. Hopefully sales continue at the same steady pace as its predecessors.

Guitar Hero effect.

jesusraz · Nov 25, 2009

cw_sasuke said:
Guitar Hero effect.

I'd agree, but there's only been the one Taiko on Wii and it's been more than a year since the first game launched, right? *Checks* Wow, 11th December, 2008! Seems like longer.

schuelma said:
Yeah. A few thoughts. One, this one wasn't released right in the middle of the big holiday rush. Maybe that had something to do with it. Also, maybe the Wii audience just doesn't buy yearly upgrades like other userbases do. IIRC the Family Ski sequel bombed and the Power Pro and WE series haven't done any better than when they were first released.

Family Ski and Power Pro, yeah I think you're right there. As for Winning Eleven, I thought the fanbase had actually grown slightly. Not sure and we won't find out until the 2009 Top 500 comes out, I suppose.

It could indeed pick up in the next few weeks...

Cosmonaut X · Nov 25, 2009

schuelma said:
Yeah. A few thoughts. One, this one wasn't released right in the middle of the big holiday rush. Maybe that had something to do with it. Also, maybe the Wii audience just doesn't buy yearly upgrades like other userbases do. IIRC the Family Ski sequel bombed and the Power Pro and WE series haven't done any better than when they were first released.

Again, Nintendo seem to be a bit ahead of the pack here with something like Wii Fit Plus. They obviously believed that the audience wouldn't accept it as a sequel, so they treated it as an update, priced it accordingly and watched it take off.

Was Taiko available as a cheap solus, or was it just the controller bundle again?

swerve · Nov 25, 2009

jesusraz said:
That Taiko figure is really quite shocking. Hopefully sales continue at the same steady pace as its predecessors.

Frankly, once you have Taiko, you don't really need another one. The kids don't tire of the songs in the same way adults do. I still expect it to sell well right up to the new year, but it was never going to have the pull of the very first taiko game for the system.

If the update was 2000 yen rather than 4000 I think it'd be a different story because a bonus song pack for that price would be worth it. But the original did a great job of being all the taiko you ever need.

schuelma · Nov 25, 2009

Cosmonaut X said:
Again, Nintendo seem to be a bit ahead of the pack here with something like Wii Fit Plus. They obviously believed that the audience wouldn't accept it as a sequel, so they treated it as an update, priced it accordingly and watched it take off.

Was Taiko available as a cheap solus, or was it just the controller bundle again?

It was available in both, but the software only was still 5,000 yen.

Hero of Legend · Nov 25, 2009

I hope we don't have to wait until June 2010 before we get the Top 500, why the hell did it take until June 2009 to get the Top 500 for 2008?

schuelma · Nov 25, 2009

swerve said:
Frankly, once you have Taiko, you don't really need another one. The kids don't tire of the songs in the same way adults do. I still expect it to sell well right up to the new year, but it was never going to have the pull of the very first taiko game for the system.
.

How do you reconcile the DS and PS2 versions? While the PS2 versions tanked towards the end, it seems like the first couple of sequels did very well. And the 2nd DS one of course did extremely well.

gogogow · Nov 25, 2009

jesusraz said:
Family Ski and Power Pro, yeah I think you're right there. As for Winning Eleven, I thought the fanbase had actually grown slightly. Not sure and we won't find out until the 2009 Top 500 comes out, I suppose.

It could indeed pick up in the next few weeks...

Quite the opposite.
PES 2008 - 109k ltd
PES 2009 - 31k ltd

Spiegel · Nov 25, 2009

jesusraz said:
As for Winning Eleven, I thought the fanbase had actually grown slightly. Not sure and we won't find out until the 2009 Top 500 comes out, I suppose.

WE 2008 (first week) - 38k
WE 2009 (after five weeks) - 32k

WE 2010 should do better this year. It's being released the same day as the PSP/PS2 versions.

7Th · Nov 25, 2009

Crystal Bearers has no legs, huh.... whatever, it had it coming.

Rolf NB · Nov 25, 2009

Hero of Legend said:
I hope we don't have to wait until June 2010 before we get the Top 500, why the hell did it take until June 2009 to get the Top 500 for 2008?

Because market research is a for-pay service?

swerve · Nov 25, 2009

schuelma said:
How do you reconcile the DS and PS2 versions? While the PS2 versions tanked towards the end, it seems like the first couple of sequels did very well. And the 2nd DS one of course did extremely well.

I don't have those figures but if the PS2 sequels did significantly better first week then it seems my reading of the situation is wrong. Maybe the initial PS2 offerings - as the very first home versions - were limited like early beatmania games, so the leaps were bigger?

DS I think was a different story due to user base size. I note that they didn't put out a third one though...

schuelma · Nov 25, 2009

swerve said:
I don't have those figures but if the PS2 sequels did significantly better first week then it seems my reading of the situation is wrong. Maybe the initial PS2 offerings - as the very first home versions - were limited like early beatmania games, so the leaps were bigger?

DS I think was a different story due to user base size. I note that they didn't put out a third one though...

Here is the Taiko group:

http://garaph.info/softwaregroup.php?grid=156

schuelma · Nov 25, 2009

[NDS] Professor Layton and the Flute of Malevolent Destiny (Level 5) - 350k
[PSP] Higurashi Daybreak Portable: Mega Edition (Alchemist) - 15k
[WII] Karaoke Joysound Wii DX (Hudson) - 10K
[WII] Momotaro Railway 2010: Sengoku Ishin no Hero Daishuugou! no Maki (Hudson) - 35K

jj984jj · Nov 25, 2009

[NDS] Professor Layton and the Flute of Malevolent Destiny (Level 5) - 275K
[PSP] Higurashi Daybreak Portable: Mega Edition (Alchemist) - 9K
[WII] Karaoke Joysound Wii DX (Hudson) - 12K
[WII] Momotaro Railway 2010: Sengoku Ishin no Hero Daishuugou! no Maki (Hudson) - 32K

Shiggy · Nov 25, 2009

You guys should at least put something like "Predictions" into your post :lol

stilgar · Nov 25, 2009

jj984jj said:
[WII] Momotaro Railway 2010: Sengoku Ishin no Hero Daishuugou! no Maki (Hudson) -

Huge title+railway game. Pfeww,at least Japan is still Japanese.

EXGN · Nov 25, 2009

Wow, Taiko 2 bombed. Wonder how much of it is the usual music game effect versus the fact that Taiko 1 came out last year during a BARREN release schedule.

Parmenides · Nov 25, 2009

DMeisterJ said:
PS3 only has three more weeks to hold onto before FFXIII and the huuuuge boost that will bring.

Fixed

schuelma said:
NSMB Wii is going to be massive.

We shall see.

Wii hardware sales

Code:

Week     2007         2008          2009

45      34,820        28,516       24,294

46      36,413        31,099       23,000

47      47,124        40,208       29,000



Source: Famitsu

Kurosaki Ichigo · Nov 25, 2009

Road said:
Famitsu top 10 and Sinobi info for Nov 16-22:
04. [WII] Taiko no Tatusjin Wii: Dodoon to 2 Yome! (Bandai Namco Games) - 29,000
05. [360] Left 4 Dead 2 (Electronic Arts) - 28,000
07. [NDS] Mario & Sonic at the Vancouver Olympics　(Nintendo) - 26,000
10. [NDS] Dorabase 2: Nettou Ultra Stadium (Bandai Namco Games) - 19,000
[PS3] Ratchet & Clank: Future 2 (SCE) - 15,000

That's horrible for everyone but L4D2 (and because that one has lowered expectations by default being western, fps and a 360 title). Huge drops from last entries for Taiko, M&S and Dorabase and barely any improvement on Ratchet which did horrible before so just very slightly less horrible this time.

schuelma said:
Here is the Taiko group:

http://garaph.info/softwaregroup.php?grid=156

The PS2 milking sure was quite spectacular. They release the first one on October 2002, and by December 2003 they were releasing the 4th title. 743k -> 407k -> 579k -> 205k.

Btw schuelma, jj984jj, don't forget next time to put the predictions before the Famitsu leak (no real gain I know) just so it doesn't interfere with the thread schedule

schuelma · Nov 25, 2009

Kurosaki Ichigo said:
Btw schuelma, jj984jj, don't forget next time to put the predictions before the Famitsu leak (no real gain I know) just so it doesn't interfere with the thread schedule

Whoops! Thought the deadline was the Friday morning famitsu first day leak.

My mistake!

Moor-Angol · Nov 25, 2009

Spiegel said:
WE 2008 (first week) - 38k
WE 2009 (after five weeks) - 32k

WE 2010 should do better this year. It's being released the same day as the PSP/PS2 versions.

I'm not so sure about that...

WE 2010 (Wii) on Amazon.jp

for a comparison, Taiko 2 best placement was #39, Crystal Bearers reached #21

markatisu · Nov 25, 2009

So Ratchet did just as shitty as before, there is one franchise not really benefiting from the PS3 increase.

jcm · Nov 25, 2009

ccbfan said:
I think everyone(well almost) knew PSP Go was gonna bomb especially in Japan.

1. Japan even with its great broadband services aren't the biggest online users.
2. The price.
3. The PSP 3000 actually just had a price drop.
4. People actually buy games for the PSP in Japan. How well do you think they're gonna take a system that can't play their games and cost much more than the 3000.

This plus the failure its been in U.S and Europe. I don't think anyone should be surprised that it mega bombed in Japan.

I didn't think it would do well, but I didn't expect it to do xbox bad.

faridmon · Nov 25, 2009

man, the third party games on the Wii this is quite pathetic. if any of the games that was released last year or the year before they would have sold at least 100k. for god sake the rubbish Tales of Symphonia sold really well (well with the golden week that boosted the sales but you get the idea). its really depressing affair and will be an interesting watch how the third party games react toward the Wii next year now that their games bombed left and right.

it will be interesting whether Nintendo is going to make niche games now that Sin and Punishment 2 and tact of Magic bombed, (among others)

gogogow · Nov 25, 2009

markatisu said:
So Ratchet did just as shitty as before, there is one franchise not really benefiting from the PS3 increase.

It's no Uncharted 2, but there's still an increase of 36,3% for Ratchet.

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