Roude Leiw
Member
SmokyDave said:
Very nice of you for not wanting to nuke us
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The Dutch know how to support there team
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Very nice of you for not wanting to nuke us
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Here, allow meNeo C. said:
esquire said:
Ah yeah, the United States of America, the land that understands that marihuana should be legal, has equal rights for gays, low crime figures, where one gets taken proper care of when in dire need, where everyone has the right to proper health care, politics and the media aren't half ruled by religious nuts and where obesity isn't a big problem.
Oh wait, that's Holland.
Goldrusher
Member
Now watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOsA0D_TlpQ
An old (Dutch, of course) theater comedy bit about two women on a safari in Africa...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOsA0D_TlpQ
An old (Dutch, of course) theater comedy bit about two women on a safari in Africa...
I'm from the Netherlands I do think the zwarte pieten are somewhat racist. Honestly when I was a kid I didn't think too much about it. Though once the discussion came up and my teacher told me it's because they go through the chimneys and become black because of the dirt and such. Few years later I started thinking why do they have Afro-textured hair, golden earrings, wear red lipstick, etc.?
This is actually a skit making fun of the women though.Goldrusher said:
If you look at folklore the piet was a devil first then later it was changed to a Moor (black African). So it was like the Sint was the good guy and the Piet was the bad guy(if you where bad the Piet would take you). Later he was reformed into a not so bright helper. And later he was transformed into a good helper.Stridone said:
I know it has no bad intents, but it has a history of racism.
Stridone said:
Yes, let's legalise prostitution while we're at it so we can all be as great as the Dutch. The point isn't that the USA doesn't have any problems (of the ones you listed the only "real" problem is no federal law establishing equal rights for gays. The rest of the problems you listed are imagined or exaggerated, and no legalizing marijuana is not a good thing you degenerate), it's that despite our problems the USA is still better than the Netherlands. A key difference being that we recognize our problems and try to fix them rather than deny that they exist at all or hide behind cultural relativism to justify them. How about we talk about the real problem of the United States GDP being approximately 16 times that of the Netherlands? How do you rationalise that in your head or would you rather just not think about it instead?
esquire said:
By all means you should. It's not the governments business what women do with their body.
Really? Obesity is exaggerated when one third of the American population (maybe more by now) are obese? People are not thrown out of their houses and condemned to being homeless and jobless? Fuckheads like Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh aren't prominent figures in the media, and the anti-choice, anti-gay Republican party doesn't represent nearly half the American population?
Maybe you should do some research. Marihuana is proven to be relatively harmless (much more harmless than alcohol and tobacco), see also this. And to add to the simple fact stated before, it is also a fact that marihuana use is actually more prevalent in your great USA where millions upon millions of dollars are going to waste to combat innocent marihuana use and to imprison innocent adults that would simply like to decide for themselves what to put in their body. I'm not a degenerate, you are simply ignorant.
Yeah, so hows that war on drugs working out for ya? How about those 2 other wars? Nice fixing there.
Ehhh, there's only 16 million people in the Netherlands...
esquire said:
esquire, this is not the greatest set of arguments. Agreed that the blackface thing is really racist, but the US has many, many problems of its own. Under many definitions of 'best country on the planet', the US doesn't even get into the top ten, and in others it's number one.
PjotrStroganov
Member
A key difference being that we recognize our problems and try to fix them rather than deny that they exist at all or hide behind cultural relativism to justify them.
Wha?:lol
Wha?:lol
Dude Abides
Banned
grumble said:
Yeah. The ignorant traditions of the Dutch speak for themselves. America doesn't really have anything to do with it.
Stridone said:
You can't have it both ways. If you are going to argue that GDP isn't a problem because you have "only 16 million people" then you can't by that same logic argue that legalising marijuana and prostitution in a country of 300+million is a good idea because it would cost us far more to regulate both than it does to prohibit it (it is the same reasoning why our drinking age here is 21 and not 18 like it is there) but nice work inconsistently using cultural relativism again to justify your stupidity. I guess being consistent only matters when it's convenient for you. The United States is economically superior and morally right while you are just a country of racist degenerates.
Also, you are making up 100% of the statistics you are (inaccurately) citing. What school did you go to?
grumble said:
There is only one definition of "best country on the planet" that matters. And let's be clear that this isn't a diatribe that declares that the United States is the land of milk and honey and perfect in every way. The point is that unlike the Dutch no one here rationalizes our problems based on cultural relativism. Obesity is a problem for some here. Yes, we are trying to fix it - the Dutch wouldn't even know it was a problem if we weren't collecting our own statistics on it and publishing it for everyone to see. We don't just accept it and claim it to be "just the way we are," or make absurd claims defending it as "our cultural history." Racism is a problem in the Netherlands, what are they doing to fix it? There is a difference. America is a nation of overachievers and the Netherlands is a nation of lazy C and D students.
Mr. B Natural
Member
cashman said:
Haven't decided about that one either, can't get a good view of her knees or ass.
MidnightRider
Banned
Atlagev said:
This for sure!
WTF were they thinking?
esquire said:
I'm going to "argue"? :lol It's pretty damn logical the USA's GDP is larger when the country is alot larger...
Really? Elaborate. And the legal drinking age is 16 here, do some research before you make random statements.
Really? I'm pretty sure the US has a much higher unemployment rate at the moment... And if inequality is your thing, then sure, you're morally right man. Also, you just insinuated that racism is more prevalent in the Netherlands (one of the most tolerant countries in the world) than in the US. :lol
Care to elaborate? You can find similar statistics anywhere, but I guess it's not true if it doesn't fit in your world.
We are? Source please. That's kind of ironic actually since we're one of the most obvious examples of a knowledge economy.
Racism a problem in the Netherlands, you're hilarious man. And if you care to reply to this, please bring up valid arguments and sources instead of mindless ranting.
Stridone said:
You are asking me to take time out of my day to argue with you across a broad spectrum of topics in order to "prove" to you that the United States is a superior country to the Netherlands. I really wish I had time to take apart and debunk each one of your insipid "facts," and further demonstrate that posters who use multiple smileys in a post to get their point across don't have anything to back up their arguments but I have to be terse for the sake of clarity and focus and because ultimately I don't actually care what you think because I know I am right and every economic measure in the world agrees with my assessment of the two countries. What does the unemployment rate have to do with anything? We are in a recession and on the path to recovery to an economically ideal unemployment rate. I point you to an actual quantifiable measurement (GDP) and you rationalize it away by attempting to correlate population and/or land mass to the size of an economy. That does not make sense and is a categorical denial of the facts I've presented to you. Where exactly did I make a comparative quantitative argument between the level of racism in the United States versus that in the Netherlands? I did not deny that the United States had it's share of problems. None of the points you bring up are quantifiable by your own poorly defined measurements and are therefore invalid arguments. As your own denial of its existence confirms, Racism and Xenophobia are problems in the Netherlands because you are choosing to favor cultural heritage over the open acceptance and full integration of immigrants into your country. The United States does not discriminate against immigrants and in fact welcomes them (yes, even illegal immigrants who are supported by our tax code despite vocal objections by the likes of Rush Limbaugh - but I'm sure you already knew that if you are going to bring his opinions up as a point of discussion). That alone makes us morally superior to you, but if acceptance of prostitution and drug use are the measure by which you judge morality then you have us beat and I've offered you my opinion in opposition that prostitution and drug use are "degenerate" behaviors/activities. As far as "equal rights" (as they herein refer to "gay rights") are concerned some states do allow gay marriage and civil unions. It is a far more complicated legal issue and it is not simply a matter of bigotry and homophobia in the United States, but I am certain and I can guarantee that you would not understand any of the arguments before the SCOTUS right now. We are not where we should be (opinion) but we are getting there. The same cannot be said of the Netherlands because you categorically deny that you have a problem with Racism and Xenophobia in the first place. It's a non-starter.
"I'm going to "argue"? :lol It's pretty damn logical the USA's GDP is larger when the country is alot larger..."
I actually am curious to know what school you went to because I don't understand how someone can make the above statement. By which measure are you defining the United States as a larger country than the Netherlands? If it is land mass logic would conclude that Russia and Canada have a higher GDP than the United States. If it is by population logic would conclude that India and China have a higher GDP than the United States. Neither is correct and even if it were there is no correlation between GDP and the size of a country (land mass or population). I don't think you fully understand just how powerful the United States is and that is the primary reason why you can't accept that we are economically and morally superior to you. This is the reality of the world today and you are delusional if you think the Netherlands are in any way better than the United States. Don't tread on me.
Suitcase Test
Member
Oh man. Wow @ esquire's last paragraph (and all the other ones too actually). Hope you're trolling. :lol
And stupid argument is stupid.
And stupid argument is stupid.
Prophet Steve
Member
Holy shit esquire, you can't be serious right? :lol
Less people=less people able to work=less economic output. It's quite simple. India and China ranking below the US is due to the HUGE differences between rich and poor there, while in the US (and in the Netherlands) nearly everyone contributes. China has a shitload of people, the average GDP per capita is very low because it's a low-wage country. Same for India. It's why we outsource alot of labour-intensive jobs there, as you might know... It's funny you're trying to slander my education when you're the one not understanding these simple facts.
I think you're not very educated on the situation here. We accept ALOT of immigrants, in fact it's costing us so much money that there is a political party (partially) devoted to stopping it. You might know Geert Wilders. He only has 1/15th of the seats in parliament, that's how xenophobic we are. And while immigrants actually have some value to the US because they work for low wages, we're only losing money due to social benefits we give them so they can actually live in a decent house while finding a job. All in the name of solidarity. How xenophobic of us.
And if you're talking about Sinterklaas when referring to our "racist" cultural heritage; that's a small holiday for kids that black Dutchies usually participate in with equal joy.
You're allowed to think prostitution and drugs are immoral (so I'm guessing you never drink alcohol then huh?), that doesn't mean the government should prohibit it. Other people don't think it's immoral, live and let live as long as no one if forcing anything upon you. Weed and prostitution isn't forced upon anyone, nor does it cause much trouble. Unlike everyones favorite hard drug, alcohol.
And gay marriage not being allowed is a matter of homophobia and bigotry. If not for the christian fundamentalist opposition, it wouldn't be a problem at all.
EDIT: I see you finally edited GDP per capita in, guess you just didn't really know what you were talking about in the first place huh. :lol
But you might have noticed our nominal income is actually higher than that of the US. Our cost of living is just higher due to being a small, overcrowded country. Buying a house is more expensive for example.
I think you're not very educated on the situation here. We accept ALOT of immigrants, in fact it's costing us so much money that there is a political party (partially) devoted to stopping it. You might know Geert Wilders. He only has 1/15th of the seats in parliament, that's how xenophobic we are. And while immigrants actually have some value to the US because they work for low wages, we're only losing money due to social benefits we give them so they can actually live in a decent house while finding a job. All in the name of solidarity. How xenophobic of us.
And if you're talking about Sinterklaas when referring to our "racist" cultural heritage; that's a small holiday for kids that black Dutchies usually participate in with equal joy.
You're allowed to think prostitution and drugs are immoral (so I'm guessing you never drink alcohol then huh?), that doesn't mean the government should prohibit it. Other people don't think it's immoral, live and let live as long as no one if forcing anything upon you. Weed and prostitution isn't forced upon anyone, nor does it cause much trouble. Unlike everyones favorite hard drug, alcohol.
And gay marriage not being allowed is a matter of homophobia and bigotry. If not for the christian fundamentalist opposition, it wouldn't be a problem at all.
EDIT: I see you finally edited GDP per capita in, guess you just didn't really know what you were talking about in the first place huh. :lol
But you might have noticed our nominal income is actually higher than that of the US. Our cost of living is just higher due to being a small, overcrowded country. Buying a house is more expensive for example.
Moz La Punk
Member
I agree with Stridone, only saying 'no one is forced to get into prostitution' was a mistake. Other than that, good job.
ClosingADoor
Member
It's all cool, we got Beesie supporting us:
Stridone said:
How exactly does that prove that United States isn't better than the Netherlands? You rationalise it any way you want and the result is still the same.
You are bitter. You can't quantify any of your arguments. Legalisation of illicit activities like prostitution and drug use are not better or worse; they just are. It is ironic that you think I'm not very educated on the situation in the Netherlands when I would say the same thing of you regarding your knowledge of the United States. I actually have lived in the Netherlands (Amsterdam), I know very much what it is like there and you have serious problems integrating immigrants into Dutch society. Unemployment is especially high among immigrants and the Netherlands have some of the most stringent immigration laws in Europe due to intense Xenophobia and Racism - I'm not really sure what you are trying to prove by saying you accept a lot of immigrants when the United States accepts a lot more immigrants from more countries than any other country in the world (some of them Dutch) and unlike you we aren't trying to curb legal immigration and we're actually trying to resolve the issue of illegal immigration amicably and fairly.
Gay marriage is very much a legal issue about how you legally define marriage as well as state rights but I wouldn't expect you to understand that if you think homophobia and bigotry are the reasons why gay marriage isn't legal in every state. Read up on your legalese before you attempt to understand this issue.
"EDIT: I see you finally edited GDP per capita in, guess you just didn't really know what you were talking about in the first place huh. :lol
But you might have noticed our nominal income is actually higher than that of the US. Our cost of living is just higher due to being a small, overcrowded country. Buying a house is more expensive for example."
I didn't edit that in. My edit was to add the words "and focus." You continue to rationalise the facts away. The United States > The Netherlands. Deal with it.
ClosingADoor
Member
esquire said:
My country is better then your country. Your argument is invalid. *Nicolage Cage bird*
Edit:
So, you're surprised a country the size of New York accepts less immigrants then one sizing half a continent?
Prophet Steve
Member
esquire said:
We do not have strict regulation for immigrants because we do not want them here. Although Geert Wilders makes it seem so the main reasons are that our country is already overcrowded as it is, and that it costs way to much to supply insurgence to them. The Netherlands is a very multicultural country and I think more tolerant of other cultures then most countries in the world.
I also think we are more tolerant to gay people then some states of the United States are and I also think that homophobia is indeed a reason of why it is illegal in some states in the United States.
I can't say anything about the unemployment of immigrants since I don't know anything about that issue, but I think you are exaggerating.
The United States may be better in some ways, but is certainly not a superior in every way. Not economical nor morally.
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