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The Verge: Will the NSA use the Xbox One to spy on your family?

B

Buddha Beam

Banned
I have absolutely no faith in Microsoft to not let the NSA snoop through Kinect. In fact, I think it's as close to a guarantee as you can get that the NSA will be making use of it. The question is what will they be getting? Are they actually recording video or just collecting like metadata and scanning for spoken keywords?
 
V

Visualante2

Member
We all know terrorists use shooting games as training simulations for terrorist attacks. As such we have a duty to the safety of this great nation to use Kinect to ensure that you are not a terrorist.
sometimes i game said:
No company could ever admit to how this actually works and when/why it's used, so it's up to each person to decide for themselves in my opinion.
Click to expand...
It's up for hactivists to inform people of how their data is being misused so they have the chance to make up their mind.
Buddha Beam said:
I have absolutely no faith in Microsoft to not let the NSA snoop through Kinect. In fact, I think it's as close to a guarantee as you can get that the NSA will be making use of it. The question is what will they be getting? Are they actually recording video or just collecting like metadata and scanning for spoken keywords?
Click to expand...
Well they already track Skype.. and communications on the Xbox are ran through Skype so... probably. I think the Register is reporting that they are "getting the full picture" now which eludes to video calls.
 
R

redmetal86

Member
Well, if by some chance it happens, might as well put on a show for the government. I hope they like to watch the full moon.
 
S

samn

Member
I cannot understand why people who were fine with the Kinect on the 360 are not fine with the Kinect on the One, for privacy reasons.

In both cases a microphone is attached to a console running closed sourced software that could conceivably switch on the microphone and upload data without your knowledge.

The only difference with the One is that data from the microphone will be used at all times by an offline process (not uploaded), and analysed by some software for the sake of generic commands. This doesn't help the NSA listen in on you. They could already do this even if the microphone wasn't always listening for voice commands.

There is no more reason to be worried about the One listening to you than a 360 or your mobile phone or your laptop or any other device running closed source software.... and by that, I mean that all of them are privacy concerns and it is terrifying that so many people are complacent about this. 'Nothing to fear, nothing to hide.' Even if you trust our current government with intimate knowledge and complete surveillance of all of its citizens, does that mean you trust all conceivable future governments? You realise that an untrustworthy future government would have potentially decades of data collected under previous administrations? Are you seriously happy to have this kind of relationship with the state despite the great danger it puts our society in?

Oh sorry, I meant to say 'herp derp they can have pics of my dick anytime'
 
T

TouchMyBox

Member
Haziq said:
"Xbox, stop creeping"
--
This is the same reason I stopped using Skype completely. The only other reason for not using it anymore was the fact that it's complete garbage on Linux.
Click to expand...

Which is funny, because the linux skype client is far superior to the windows client.
 
C

casmith07

Member
JustAnotherOtaku said:
tumblr_maxg70A1Yg1rwj3zeo1_500.jpg
Click to expand...

Pretty much exactly this.
 
S

Shambles

Member
Jac_Solar said:
This article just undermines and completely ridicules the issue. The problem isn't about whether or not Microsoft will spy on any one individual, it's that it'll be able to easily collect information on a worldwide basis. They won't spy on any single individual, in most cases, they'll just aggregate the information, which is probably a series of yes/no answers by the Kinect into a database.
Click to expand...

It seems like a lot of people don't understand how these PRISM systems are designed to function. They're not clicking through peoples living rooms one by one with fraps running. They are creating a historical record of all data transactions to be permanently stored. They don't need to target individuals since they are collecting EVERYONES data at the same time and storing it en masse so it can be pulled up live, today, next month, or in 10 years. They aren't collecting expired encryption keys for fun, they do it because they've stored warehouses full of old data that they want to be able to decrypt more quickly.
 
T

Tobor

Member
samn said:
I cannot understand why people who were fine with the Kinect on the 360 are not fine with the Kinect on the One, for privacy reasons.

In both cases a microphone is attached to a console running closed sourced software that could conceivably switch on the microphone and upload data without your knowledge.

The only difference with the One is that data from the microphone will be used at all times by an offline process (not uploaded), and analysed by some some software for the sake of generic commands. This doesn't help the NSA listen in on you. They could already do this even if the microphone wasn't always listening for voice commands.

There is no more reason to be worried about the One listening to you than a 360 or your mobile phone or any other device running closed source software.... and by that, I mean that all of them are privacy concerns.
Click to expand...

Kinect on 360 was optional. Kinect on Xbone is required.
 
W

watership

Member
Yep, i knew this article would show up here. Really disappointing that The Verge wrote this the way they did. First a click bait headline, then a bunch of FUD/worst case scenarios. Then they basically say at end of the article. "Eh.. it's highly unlikely." Just like every cell phone, computer, and internet connected camera.

Reads like like a Gizmodo piece.
 
Sub_Level

Sub_Level

wants to fuck an Asian grill.
Everything you do on a computer leaves a trace. Data packets are sent into and out of a network. You can encapsulate and encrypt them but you can never truly hide them completely. If I was part of the NSA (and I'm not) I would use the Kinect for small-sized screenshots and cross reference the facial recognitions for known suspects. Then for outbound transmission hide the small photo file in an Xbox update or something along those lines.
 
cormack12

cormack12

Gold Member
They'll bury the uploading of data in some random small print/T&C eventually; they always do (big companies in general). The kinect is obviously 'on' all the time but only reacts/listens to specific commands e.g. 'Xbox on'

It's not beyond the realms of possibility that it can also listen and log very specific keywords that are used. It's just a feature already in the technology. It would produce much less data as well if it was only listening for a catalog of words (e.g. Afghanistan, Obama, Bomb, IED).

I don't think there's anything to worry about in most cases, the real problem is the technology exists, will be in people's homes and there's no trust. If there's no trust then the product is pretty much doomed.
 
Gormless Noodle

Gormless Noodle

Member
As a European, getting an Xbone is out of the question. Microsoft supplies the US government with all the info it requests. And people can call it tinfoil hat nonsense as much as they like, the entire Snowden disaster has proven that it all really does happen.
 
F

FlyFaster

Member
imo, YES.

it's best to err on the side of caution. Who wants a corporations camera in their house in this day and age? It's too 1984 for me, maybe I'm paranoid, but that's how I feel.
 
S

samn

Member
Tobor said:
Kinect on 360 was optional. Kinect on Xbone is required.
Click to expand...

True, but how many 360 owners do not have it connected to a microphone, like a headset? How many don't possess a mobile phone or a laptop?

If you are fine with having those items then it seems silly to complain that the Xbone will help the NSA listen in on you. You are already compromised.
 
D

demosthenes

Member
sometimes i game said:
No company could ever admit to how this actually works and when/why it's used, so it's up to each person to decide for themselves in my opinion.
Click to expand...

MS already admitted to Skype, Outlook, etc.

But I agree still, I don't think they'll admit Kinect, even if they are, just b/c it's something that is technically always on. You have a choice in using skype, outlook, you don't have a choice if you buy XB1.
 
C

CassiusLonginus

Banned
samn said:
I cannot understand why people who were fine with the Kinect on the 360 are not fine with the Kinect on the One, for privacy reasons.

In both cases a microphone is attached to a console running closed sourced software that could conceivably switch on the microphone and upload data without your knowledge.

The only difference with the One is that data from the microphone will be used at all times by an offline process (not uploaded), and analysed by some software for the sake of generic commands. This doesn't help the NSA listen in on you. They could already do this even if the microphone wasn't always listening for voice commands.

There is no more reason to be worried about the One listening to you than a 360 or your mobile phone or any other device running closed source software.... and by that, I mean that all of them are privacy concerns and it is terrifying that so many people are complacent about this.
Click to expand...

To be fair there IS a difference from the 360 to the One.

The original kinect was optional and it could be completely unplugged.

BTW, do we have official word that anything and everything Kinect 2.0 is not being uploaded anywhere?

To completely answer this, as soon as the ONE is out, someone should monitor their network activity to see if the One is uploading anything that is not expected.

That would be proof enough one way or the other, no?

ETA: Or we could comb over the Terms of Service. I would think that even if MS does try to mine data through kinect, they would be obligated to disclose it on the ToS or EULA.
 
O

Orca

Member
If the PS Eye gets a pass because it's optional, what about the cameras in Samsung TV sets?

BTW, do we have official word that anything and everything Kinect 2.0 is not being uploaded anywhere?
Click to expand...

They said pretty clearly that nothing is sent back outside of the voice commands (which run in the same way Siri does) unless you opt in to the 'machine training' programs. The original Kinect had the same things - you stand in the spots it shows and do the poses it asks for, or say the phrases on the screen.
 
moniker

moniker

Member
Zaptruder said:
Whether or not this occurs will be discovered incredibly quickly now that everyone is looking for it.

i.e. many people will use monitor outgoing data on their router and see what's been sent when and from what. If they see the Xbone doing it's dirty deed, we're going to know pretty much as soon as it happens.
Click to expand...

Unless it's encrypted (which it would be), then we would only see that it sends something, and where it's sending it. If it's sending video we could probably tell just from the size of the data, but I could easily see them get away with sending back audio (and analyzed video data + stills) if they were smart about it.
 
B

Buddha Beam

Banned
Visualante2 said:
Well they already track Skype.. and communications on the Xbox are ran through Skype so... probably. I think the Register is reporting that they are "getting the full picture" now which eludes to video calls.
Click to expand...

Yeah... I guess you can't go wrong by assuming the worst in this case.

redmetal86 said:
Well, if by some chance it happens, might as well put on a show for the government. I hope they like to watch the full moon.
Click to expand...

If the government is recording Skype calls, they have HOURS of footage of my dick. Probably have a whole HDD labeled "Buddha Beam's Dick", I reckon.
 
S

samn

Member
CassiusLonginus said:
To be fair there IS a difference from the 360 to the One.

The original kinect was optional and it could be completely unplugged.
Click to expand...

I addressed this in an earlier post.

That would be proof enough one way or the other, no?
Click to expand...

If the NSA wanted to monitor someone's Kinect covertly they could have Microsoft push an update or signal to the specific console.
 
B

Baron Aloha

A Shining Example
"We aren't using Kinect to snoop on anybody at all," said Microsoft's Phil Harrison.
Click to expand...

Sure, they aren't the ones doing the spying... so technically this is true. It's the NSA folks are worried about.

Zaptruder said:
Whether or not this occurs will be discovered incredibly quickly now that everyone is looking for it.

i.e. many people will use monitor outgoing data on their router and see what's been sent when and from what. If they see the Xbone doing it's dirty deed, we're going to know pretty much as soon as it happens.
Click to expand...

Not trying to single you out by quoting you...but I've seen this sort of thing mentioned a few times. What's stopping MS from routing the Skype traffic through their servers and then forking the data (1 copy of the packets gets sent to the person you are chatting with and another copy to the NSA)? How would people be able to detect it then?
 
W

watership

Member
Tobor said:
Kinect on 360 was optional. Kinect on Xbone is required.
Click to expand...

Well no one is required to buy an Xbox One. Just like people are not required to buy Kinect. Including a camera that's part of the system will lose some customers, right out. In this new NSA aware climate, the Xbox One will lose even more. People who honestly believe that it will be used against their wishes. This has been happening since the first laptop cameras emerged and will be the new awareness for all camera equipped, internet accessing devices.

Is anyone here really not going to buy the Xbox One due to NSA concerns?
 
D

dragonelite

Member
Before prism i would have said fuck microsoft.
Now after prism every big tech company is selling data :'(

Still mandatory kinect is making it hard just drop the requirement.
 
Cornbread78

Cornbread78

Member
cormack12 said:
They'll bury the uploading of data in some random small print/T&C eventually; they always do (big companies in general). The kinect is obviously 'on' all the time but only reacts/listens to specific commands e.g. 'Xbox on'

It's not beyond the realms of possibility that it can also listen and log very specific keywords that are used. It's just a feature already in the technology. It would produce much less data as well if it was only listening for a catalog of words (e.g. Afghanistan, Obama, Bomb, IED).

I don't think there's anything to worry about in most cases, the real problem is the technology exists, will be in people's homes and there's no trust. If there's no trust then the product is pretty much doomed.
Click to expand...


People give me crap all the time for typing $hit or fu(k, but I work for a large company that automatically pulls any transaction with a swear word attached (PR purposes or course) It's just how I.S. departments roll these days...



Orca said:
If the PS Eye gets a pass because it's optional, what about the cameras in Samsung TV sets?
Click to expand...

Good point. I'm glad I got the last 7000 series LED TV before the camera was added.
 
I

inpHilltr8r

Member
This is why the wife won't let me put the xbone in the lounge. I'm going to have to set it up in my office, and probably put a bucket over the kinect.
 
H

Hellsing321

Member
Of course Microsoft is going to hand over whatever data they can to the NSA. They are like best buds. If the data from Kinect could prove useful to the NSA they will get it one way or the other.
 
J

jay

Member
Regardless of what they do or don't do, MS saying they won't do it means nothing because their agreement with the government includes not telling people they are being spied on.
 
L

Lightning Lord

Banned
And really, even with the removal of DRM, this is why I won't ever consider getting the Xbone.

I don't even care so much about it being Microsoft watching me, but the potential of the government doing so.
 
C

CassiusLonginus

Banned
samn said:
I addressed this in an earlier post.
Click to expand...

The quote in the OP gives you the difference.

You can close up a laptop for example, or hell, if I am really that worried about my privacy I can still disable or even break its camera and microphone and still use my laptop as normal. This is not the case with Kinect and Xbox One.
 
T

Templar_Dante

Banned
You, MS. You know you and I got trust issues. At the reveal, you were playin me. Revealing your stuff to impress other guys. Im not interested in tv, you know this! At E3 you left me, making announcements you dont want me, you found another kind of player to entertain! When I found someone else, you begged for me to take you back. So why should I believe you now? I think you full of lies. I heard how you show your back ends to the NSA. I know their all you really got on your mind!
 
FranXico

FranXico

Member
The company told us that the Kinect's cameras and microphones aren't actually recording or transmitting any audio or video data back to Microsoft's servers without the user's explicit consent, and all ambiently collected data is anonymized.
Click to expand...

Somebody please dig up the EULA for XBox Live...
 
M

Meier

Member
How many people have Xboxes in their bedrooms? Mine is opposite our bed. Do you really want something that at least has the capability of seeing you being right there when you're doing whatever it is you do in bed? It's an unwanted risk. They need to remove the Kinect requirement.
 
D

dragonelite

Member
RobotRocker said:
Wouldn't that mean the PS Vita is also vulnerable because Skype is built in?
Click to expand...

Every us company is vulnerable so SCEA also if they have server in the US.
It is fight an long war against the government or comply and work with them.
No company will think about fighting against US government after prism reveal.
 
K

Krakn3Dfx

Member
coma1138 said:
Your family isn't that interesting.
Click to expand...

That's naive, most of the people on Skype aren't that important either, but MS was caught handing over data from Skype all the same.

Keep living in that world in your head where MS hasn't done anything historically to make people suspicious of them though.
 
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