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Ms. Male Character - Tropes vs Women in Video Games
- Thread starter Chairmanchuck
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Certainly the case. I'm more interested in the rebuttals by other YouTubers like Thunderf00t
thesolidshark
Member
I believe more information and observation about things, the better.
Details like this about Pink
and Black being Indian (from New Dehli) can make a significant different in perception of these characters. They wouldn't be as interesting to me without small touches like that.
But to actually talk about the main video (haven't seen it yet though), I can agree with the sentiment a bit. I'm more indifferent the small differences that signify female versus male when there are little to know characteristics otherwise, but I would like to see more things that set apart gender in new ways.
Uncle Rupee
Banned
How else were they supposed to make Ms. Pac-Man stand out? I mean seriously this is an issue of pixels and has nothing to do with sexism
I don't have a problem playing as a female character if the game is good i.e. Tomb Raider 2013. If I'm playing a game and there is an option to play as male or female, I'll almost always pick male. I don't see anything wrong with that, it just feels more natural to play as the gender I identify with.
meltingparappa
Member
As a queer man I actually appreciate that Kanji's character, at that point in his life, doesn't fit 100% onto either end of the kinsey scale. It's a subtle touch that kept him from being reduced into simply "the gay one."
And Naoto's gender issues didn't have to do with feeling biologically uncomfortable with her body, it was about discrimination against women in her chosen profession and her wanting to be treated with dignity.
The same team did however, touch BEAUTIFULLY on transgendered issues in Catherine, but sadly that may go unnoticed because a critic like Anita seem more willing to cite mobile games over japanese ones.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
I am honestly a bit mindblowned by people thinking that people referring to female version of Shepard with the name "FemShep" as an indication of people intending to devalue the female version of Shepard as something *below* MaleShepard as an independent character.
I am sorry, but I honestly think such sentiments are overthinking stuff and makes a problem where there is really no problem. In other words, I honestly think it is an irrational exaggeration.
I am sorry, but I honestly think such sentiments are overthinking stuff and makes a problem where there is really no problem. In other words, I honestly think it is an irrational exaggeration.
When did she speak on the intention of people referring to the female Shepard as "FemShep"?
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
I should clarify.
On page 3-4, people in here were discussing that, so I just want to share my thoughts about that.
Dr. Kitty Muffins
Member
The biggest Ms. Male has to be Lara Croft.
More people really should play Catherine. And when they finish it they should go and find their local competitive Catherine scene, which is the hypest shit. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCUT7Jrr6dE
Anita even admits in the video that "Femshep" was a nickname born out of adoration for the character. She was merely pointing out the unintended effect, and she has a point. Male Shepard gets to just be "Shepard."
I can't agree with a lot of points.
She says that female characters are marked and males unmarked but constantly shows males that are stereotyped. Why is Sonic blue, why is the male Ice Climber blue. There are plenty of male stereotypes in many genres, notably shooters. Pretty much every male character is split into 2 categories, the strong alpha male or the smart, weakling.
She simultaneously complains that games have a binary gender pattern which doesn't reflect the real spectrum of gender but then complains that a possible trans or gay character is portrayed crudely. How does she know that many of the unmarked characters aren't gay? Unless they are getting it on like Kratos, sexuality barley comes up in most games. Unless there are identifiers or marks how do you know? Many characters we assume are male might be female or non-gendered. Toad, is that a male or female or both? Yoshi, definitely female since she lays eggs, who knows?
Females undoubtedly suffer worse stereotyping but lets not pretend that males are well portrayed either.
She says that female characters are marked and males unmarked but constantly shows males that are stereotyped. Why is Sonic blue, why is the male Ice Climber blue. There are plenty of male stereotypes in many genres, notably shooters. Pretty much every male character is split into 2 categories, the strong alpha male or the smart, weakling.
She simultaneously complains that games have a binary gender pattern which doesn't reflect the real spectrum of gender but then complains that a possible trans or gay character is portrayed crudely. How does she know that many of the unmarked characters aren't gay? Unless they are getting it on like Kratos, sexuality barley comes up in most games. Unless there are identifiers or marks how do you know? Many characters we assume are male might be female or non-gendered. Toad, is that a male or female or both? Yoshi, definitely female since she lays eggs, who knows?
Females undoubtedly suffer worse stereotyping but lets not pretend that males are well portrayed either.
She brings up several examples in the video that directly refute this. Around the point where she's discussing Smurfette Syndrome.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
The game themselves do not make that distinction, however. That is why I sometimes don't understand the argument of "FemShep is just a copy of MaleShep with breasts", because it is equally valid to say, from how the games themselves treat him/her, that "MaleShep is just a copy of FemShep with a (I apologize) penis."
FemShep is as valid as character as MaleShep. Judging solely by the games themselves, I just don't understand the rationale behind those who think otherwise, only because the "default" is John Shepard when it is equally valid to point that there is also a "default" Jane Shepard that everyone can freely choose should they want to.
Also, I have seen many in the fandom referring to him not as Shepard but MaleShep as well *shrugs*
I think sometimes she says about things that she doesn't know at all (like when she talked about Bayonetta, she's VERY wrong about it), but in this video she nailed.
I disagree about Dixie Kong, she's awesome, have personality and isn't just "Diddy's Girlfriend". If you go from that, Diddy is just "Donkey's friend".
I love Wonderful 101, but Pink is very stereotyped. The whole cast is - even Jean Renault, that is 2 stereotypes in one: the fat kid and the french (narcisist, etc).
And I never realized that Sonic male cast doesn't wear clothes, while female casts uses.
This is very strange.
I disagree about Dixie Kong, she's awesome, have personality and isn't just "Diddy's Girlfriend". If you go from that, Diddy is just "Donkey's friend".
I love Wonderful 101, but Pink is very stereotyped. The whole cast is - even Jean Renault, that is 2 stereotypes in one: the fat kid and the french (narcisist, etc).
And I never realized that Sonic male cast doesn't wear clothes, while female casts uses.
This is very strange.
her entire point for that section was to point out how the marketing for the game, completely apart from the game itself, did it's best to turn Femshep into a Ms. Male Character.
Because the default isn't Jane Shepard. As far as 99.999% of the marketing for the series goes, the default IS John Shepard.
And that was exactly Anita's point. Despite all the effort Bioware put into treating both versions of the character equally within the game, everything else is decidedly leaning toward Maleshep being the "default" version of the character. She then posits that this might have a lot to do with why only 16% of players play as Femshep, despite the fact that Femshep is considered the better version of the character by most of the fanbase (at least, as far as voice acting is concerned).
Did you watch the video? Sarkeesian states that the game itself treats FemShep and Shep equally (aside from a few romance options). What Sarkeesian was criticizing was the marketing around the game and the packaging. She also notes that a version of the game (ME3?) has alternate box art featuring female Shepard.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Well, I have clarified that I began to talk about it because there are some who discussed this in page 3-4 of this thread, not because of her video.
I just want to share my thoughts about it, is all.
And yes... marketing. One can view it as BioWare intentionally did what they did with the marketing with the intention of making MaleShep "superior" to FemShep, but I disagree. I think they did what they did just for the simple sake of practicality and saving money.
... Yeah I think a few of the portrayals in the game flew over your head.
What's more likely is that no thought went into it and that was just the "obvious" direction to go with. No one's actually arguing that the publisher had conscious intent one way or the other.
Maybe you should take time to watch the video.
I agree totally on Catherine, I thought that character was great. Super well done. I think it's pretty easy not to cite it though, since virtually nobody's played the thing.
Hardly. I said right there I think it ends up really well, but if you distill it down it's like the moral of Kanji's arc is "oh what a relief I'm not gay after all". You really can't break Kanji's story down into anything short enough to cite on a video like her's while maintaining the nuance you need.
Kanji and Naoto are both great stories about queerness and gender identity and finding yourself, but it still kind of sucks that they resolve their issues by just turning out totally straight.
Also whatever the fuck was going on in that bathhouse where all of a sudden it turns out Naoto has the biggest cans fuck if I can make anything out of that whole section. Everyone ragging on the big girl who's fucking her cougar-ass teacher or something. Reading Persona 4 is pretty complicated, I'm sayin'.
College Zack
Neo Member
This is what I'm thinking. I see this as a nonissue. I agree that women may be underclothed in some games, and it's overdone, but it's no different than walking outside. Bows and the color pink are a non insulting way of representing a female shape. (mizz pacman)
I would think most developers of games are men, most gamers are men/boys, therefore most main characters are male. Honestly, I prefer my character as an accurate representation of my gender..
People get so bothered by the most insignificant things these days.
Scribblenauts is one good example. Mega-Man is a bad example. They are robots, they don't have a sexuality and aren't really men at all and in this context the Man is there to denote that this robot is an Android. In this context Man means person. If anything Splash-Woman is the sexist character as all the others designed for function but this robot an extra feminised parts which serve no purpose.
That she disparages Dixie Kong is tragic, she is the superior character in 2 of the 3 DK Snes games. Has extra abilities, a different personality and is in no way Ms Diddy Kong.
Just because some games bring up differentiated male characters doesn't mean all male characters are differentiated. I could bring up examples of well developed and portrayed female protagonists but it wouldn't invalidate the point that most games don't do a good job with female characters.
cj_iwakura
Member
Catherine did 200k in the US. I'd say that's quite a lot.
Wow really? That's way bigger than I thought. I stand corrected. Still a zero on the recognizability scale, and I'm pretty sure she doesn't see GAF/gamerz as her intended audience.
It, like Persona 4, is actually a game that stands up to critical reading. I'd love for her to take a crack at it, would be interesting to hear.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Aaaaand missing the point so blatantly. Nicely done.
How dare you people be bothered by something that can't possibly bother me since I'm all catered for...?!
ArkkAngel007
Member
This is the first piece of hers I've watched, though I'm not a stranger to the backlash that took place in the past.
Overall, I'm rather mixed. On one hand, she's passionate about the issue and presents interesting points, and I particularly liked her examples of non-tropes in the end.
Yet...something seemed off that didn't keep me completely engaged. Maybe its that I've grown wary of the utilization of tropes and, more prominently, cliches in media discussions. Tropes and cliches aren't bad necessarily, though I wholeheartedly agree that there are issues stemming from their usage. I suppose I also had trouble with her use of the word "consequence." It's probably too strong of a word with the examples it was paired with.
Other issues I think have been stated earlier in the thread, with the unfair critique against BioWare's marketing and being a bit too harsh on some of the really simple game designs in of themselves (such as Ms.Pac Man, where the marketing and narrative are more substantial to her argument, and the Ice Climber) given the time they were designed and with the limitations in design options. That cube game does show that there doesn't need to be a gender visual distinction, but that's also a rather new development and of a game with just a single entity when in comparison.
I realize her channel is FeministFrequency, but I do hope she decides to explore other genders and identifying tropes, without excluding male. If she has done so in the past, feel free to point me to it.
Edit: I really hope I can get through my backlog/game burnt-out soon so I can start Persona 4. Y'all are making it harder in putting it off!
Overall, I'm rather mixed. On one hand, she's passionate about the issue and presents interesting points, and I particularly liked her examples of non-tropes in the end.
Yet...something seemed off that didn't keep me completely engaged. Maybe its that I've grown wary of the utilization of tropes and, more prominently, cliches in media discussions. Tropes and cliches aren't bad necessarily, though I wholeheartedly agree that there are issues stemming from their usage. I suppose I also had trouble with her use of the word "consequence." It's probably too strong of a word with the examples it was paired with.
Other issues I think have been stated earlier in the thread, with the unfair critique against BioWare's marketing and being a bit too harsh on some of the really simple game designs in of themselves (such as Ms.Pac Man, where the marketing and narrative are more substantial to her argument, and the Ice Climber) given the time they were designed and with the limitations in design options. That cube game does show that there doesn't need to be a gender visual distinction, but that's also a rather new development and of a game with just a single entity when in comparison.
I realize her channel is FeministFrequency, but I do hope she decides to explore other genders and identifying tropes, without excluding male. If she has done so in the past, feel free to point me to it.
Edit: I really hope I can get through my backlog/game burnt-out soon so I can start Persona 4. Y'all are making it harder in putting it off!
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
I think the video really touched the primary point when she discussed the issue that affects both men and women in the real world but is prominently wielded at women characters in gaming and other media such as comics, and that would be the concept of the gender binary.
Yes, bows and makeup and heels and such don't enforce that idea on their own, but when devoid of ANY other reference to a female gender counterpart, it does lead to characters who are made in ways that are or appear to be caricatures, as those things solely identify them not just as a woman, but often as the ONLY woman, that being female is a character trait in and of itself, rather than just a gender baseline that can have equal amounts of character variation put on top of it as it is with male characters.
I love Toadette as a character, for instance, and part of the reason is because I felt that it was odd that there were no women Toads. Because Toads were NOT gender-neutral, unless open vests with no undershirts Aladdin-style are suddenly en vogue for ladies. And so Toadette isn't a problem until we realize that she literally is the ONLY girl Toad we have witnessed to my knowledge, which clearly puts her square in line for criticism like in this video. I would like to see more than just the one female Toad. It just seems like a smart idea to me.
Yes, bows and makeup and heels and such don't enforce that idea on their own, but when devoid of ANY other reference to a female gender counterpart, it does lead to characters who are made in ways that are or appear to be caricatures, as those things solely identify them not just as a woman, but often as the ONLY woman, that being female is a character trait in and of itself, rather than just a gender baseline that can have equal amounts of character variation put on top of it as it is with male characters.
I love Toadette as a character, for instance, and part of the reason is because I felt that it was odd that there were no women Toads. Because Toads were NOT gender-neutral, unless open vests with no undershirts Aladdin-style are suddenly en vogue for ladies. And so Toadette isn't a problem until we realize that she literally is the ONLY girl Toad we have witnessed to my knowledge, which clearly puts her square in line for criticism like in this video. I would like to see more than just the one female Toad. It just seems like a smart idea to me.
VanillaCakeIsBurning
Member
Great video. It seems like quite a few complaints people have with it could be solved by watching it.
GrandHarrier
Member
What makes her way better in your mind? I ask because I've played through both; Male MC in P3Fes and Female Mc in P3P. I thought they were both fine. They were almost identical except with the usual gender swaps (Male has Female love interests, Female has Male, etc). But way better? I don't know about that.
That being said, that being said, P3P definitely was a great update. Hopefully more games are able and willing to take the time to have tailor their stories to more than a single identity.
Female MC actually hung out with her dorm mates. Male MC was only interested in the ladies, leaving his bros hanging.
But she doesn't even offer that. In the end, her videos come short with me, because they point out a trope, then another. The one time she did, with the damsel that rescues herself, I think she traps herself with even more conflicting ideas. She's basically portraying it that good female characters are masculine ones, but that masculinity is a word that underlines a false dichotomy and blah blah. It doesn't even try to resolve these things.
No, most of these discussions on GAF have diverged too far from the topic to be a meaningful platform for me to engage in. I might not have done it, even if there was a good enough platform online. I say it's very interesting, and it's something that engages me. If that has me writing about it or not is completely irrelevant.
That's "solving it". I don't intend the meaning of that to be a cure or fix. I often discuss with my real life peers in what way gender quotas, that we have a lot of in Norway, help or doesn't help the female situation. I have friends that say it's detrimental, because the best aren't hired for the job, while I argue it's a way to change the culture around these jobs, to one day retract these quotas. I discuss why most world champions in cooking are male, and why our society and all societies that seem to have ever existed have been male dominated.
To me, one things is to point out that they're male dominated, and that's what she does. But it does nothing more. Another thing is why it's like that. Another is what that means. Then there's in what ways it is a problem. Does changing all these things help, or are we putting ourselves up for another trap?
Which again, seems to stem from a difference in meaning in solving. I wish for men and women to have equal opportunity, but to be able to be themselves. Today, we might be pushing more masculine traits on women, and saying it's "empowerment" and such. A question I've been thinking is about a male and female chess championship. Do we need two, when both should have equal ground? If men are inherently more competitive, inherently more focused and determined to win, is that something that means they'll divulge all their time to achieve their goals, while women have a more holistic approach, being able to compete while still enjoying spending time with their friends and taking an extra day of to relax? If such a thing were true, would pooling them together be a way to demand more masculine trait on the female that wish to compete? There seems to be a natural bias for more men to be in it, in the first place. If most of them have an edge, because they're so determined to win that they study chess most hours of their lives, does pitting women against them mean they have to have the same traits, and as such, it's the more masculine female that win?
Does this, again, then impose a default, and a superior trait, that ultimately is masculine? I mean to say that if competing is inherently masculine, if we then force the metric to apply equally to both genders, are we creating unequal grounds?
I think exploring tropes in video games becomes irrelevant when their consequences are not followed up, or contemplated. This rings especially true when the undertone of the entire series is that there's a problem with the way female are portrayed in games. When you don't offer context to such an expression, you can give out-of-context fuel to other people that might misuse such explorations to not fight for equal opportunity for both sexes.
Least100Seraphs
Neo Member
The problem with Dixie is the character's design, when compared to the design of Diddy.
Look at Dixie's design. The pink shirt. The pink hat. The pink nail polish. The long eyelashes.
The pink is clearly used as a shorthand to indicate "Dixie is a girl", as are the long eyelashes.
Now, look at Diddy's design. What items of clothing or design are in his character that are used as a shortcut to say "Diddy is a boy"? Well, none, really. The cap, maybe? But red isn't a boy colour. Stars aren't a boy shape.
Male is unmarked, female is marked as different. It's a problem in two ways - firstly, it furthers the shorthand/stereotype of girls liking pink, being into makeup, etc.
Secondly, it's a problem because it limits how much of the design can be used to display personality. Looking at the SMB3 Koopa kids it's pretty clear.
Look at someone like Ludwig Von Koopa, and one gets an idea of him being intelligent.
Lemmy has multi coloured hair, his eyes aren't looking the same way and he's balancing on a ball - that suggests clownlike behaviour, wackiness, etc.
Now look at Wendy. Pink shoes. Pink bow. Jewelry. This tells us that... she's female. Is she the smart one? Who knows. The funny one? A bit crazy? There's no room left for personality in her design, because the design is too busy telling us she's female. Her gender is her personality.
This video taught me that Diddy Kong is male, I remember reading in one of the Donkey Kong Land manuals that he was female when I was young and always assumed that it was true.
I feel that this is probably the best of her videos, they do a good job of pointing out tropes that one might not be aware of and I feel that being aware goes a long way in putting some extra thought in when designing yourself. That said I do feel that there is a lot of ground that isn't covered in these videos and I wish there was something a bit more in depth that could be a bit more of a basis for discussion. There is nothing to really agree or disagree with here, most of it would be nitpicking.
I feel that this is probably the best of her videos, they do a good job of pointing out tropes that one might not be aware of and I feel that being aware goes a long way in putting some extra thought in when designing yourself. That said I do feel that there is a lot of ground that isn't covered in these videos and I wish there was something a bit more in depth that could be a bit more of a basis for discussion. There is nothing to really agree or disagree with here, most of it would be nitpicking.
The arguments made are quite interesting, but I have to disagree with this:
Really? Male characters often have those traits.
I get the feeling if the girl had been the fat one (Green), the cowardly one (Yellow) or the brash stupid one (Blue), Anita would've been equally unhappy. But I totally agree there should've been more female characters in the game.
Really? Male characters often have those traits.
I get the feeling if the girl had been the fat one (Green), the cowardly one (Yellow) or the brash stupid one (Blue), Anita would've been equally unhappy. But I totally agree there should've been more female characters in the game.
Dr. Buni
Member
Agreed. Hamuko is fucking awesome.
Didn't know Maya was protagonist in a modern Persona game
PSP port.Didn't know Maya was protagonist in a modern Persona game
And FeMC is good as far multiple choice mute characters go, but nothing spectacular
People who actually played the game wouldn't get confused. Because she's not the only female main character
(nor is she the only female character on the team)
I'm not even disagreeing with what Anita says in this particular video, but W101 is a shitty example and this isn't the first time Anita sabotaged her own agenda via shoddy research. If anything, W101 could be seen as a positive example.
A beret and kneepads are not really female stereotypes. It's a girly outfit, and yes it is pink, but it's certainly not diddy with a bow on. And all the kongs look completely different and have different styles, and she's not really more different than any of the others.
It begs the question exactly how would you design a female cartoony monkey without using any references from modern human society that could be interpreted as sexist, but still make it distinct enough?
boobs
You guys should really play the male route and the female route back-to-back some time; it's agreed that the male protagonist is fully blank state while the female protagonist has a pretty clear and well-defined personality regardless of the options you pick. There are a bunch of scenes in the game in which the male protagonist remains silent yet the female protagonist is allowed to intervene.
.
This is very strange.
It is quite strange, its odd over the years they had come up with Ideas for clothes for them.
They just never pan out.
I have no idea what all this embolden mess is.
Eh.. Not better than Swagtagonist Yu, but was better than nagato in my opinion.
Why does her design have to have anything that's distinctly feminine? Because otherwise the default assumption is tht the character in question is male? is that not the bigger problem?
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