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American Parenting is governed by fear and it's ruining our children

F

Finale Fireworker

Member
I think another part of my anxiety is that I actually remember being a really young kid. I have lots of vivid memories of physically not being able to do things or not understanding a stimulus.

I remember not being able to figure out how a key worked because I kept putting it in upside down and it never occurred to me to turn it over.

I remember not being able to dial a phone number because I couldn't remember how many numbers I'd already put in, even when copying it off a piece of paper.

I remember constantly breaking things because I had no concept of pressure. I would snap things made of wood and crack glass and bend metal because I would hang on it or lean on it or just be too rough with it in general.

I remember constantly slamming my fingers in doors because I never moved my hand out of the way fast enough, even though they never should have been there in the first place.

So because I was such a stupid and helpless kid, I have such low expectations of what a kid should be physically or mentally capable of doing. I constantly relate it to whether I would have been able to do it at age 6, 7, 8, 9, etc. The answer is usually no because I was a moron.
 
P

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
i want to put a pin in this for later but i don't have a fully formed thought: the very idea of parenting based on likelihood of outcomes vs. supposedly irrational fears. see: people afraid of flying vs. riding in a car. except it's your child.
 
Rhomega Beta

Rhomega Beta

Member
PantherLotus said:
Can you fucking imagine letting a 9 year old little girl walk home by herself every day?

That's just one example of this boomer finding yet another reason to blame gen x and younger parents for fucking everything.
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My parents would walk me halfway to school when I was in kindergarten. At some point, I myself elected to walk to school alone. Not sure if this was in kindergarten or 1st grade.

SpecX said:
I kind of remember that story. Didn't she leave her kid unsupervised for hours at the park though? If that's the case, then that's deserved. A park is not a babysitter for your child while at work.
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Compare to 50 years ago when kids were out of the house and left on their own except for meal times and when the streetlights came on.
 
S

scamander

Banned
bahamut zero said:
I'm German. And I've seen too much shit regarding abducted kids in my neighborhood. And I life in a "safe" neighborhood.

That one bastard who abducted that immigrant kid in Potsdam (was huge news hear in Germany) lived one village next to my Grandparents. They even knew his mother.

World is a small place and it is fucking scary.
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Maybe you should have followed the news more closely in the 90's, then. As a matter of fact the world (or at least Germany) isn't worse today. Stuff can happen and that's always been the case. That's still no reason to deny children a normal childhood and playing alone with friends outside (or doing things independently in general) is a huge part of that.

After my school enrolment I got brought to school for a few weeks in which I was taught the way and after that I was going with friends. Nothing outrageous about that.
 
F

Fisty

Member
despire said:
There was a Art of Manliness episode on this and they mentioned a fact that if you were worried for something like your kid getting abducted, they would have to play outside unsupervised for some obscene amount of time (like 200 years) for it to be statistically likely.

Anyway, USA seems to go a bit overboard with this. In Finland now one drives their kids to school. Kids walk or take the bus from the first grade onwards. Kids play outside unsupervised all day. Kids can be at home on their own. Normal stuff.
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Yeah but "it's statistically improbable" doesn't sound so good after your kid gets snatched off the street by some nutjob. Every parent that deals with abduction most likely figured that it wouldn't happen because the odds are so small.

Unsupervised group stuff outside is alright, but I'm not turning my kid loose for hours at a time. I'd rather be a "helicopter parent" than "father of the victim" even if the chances of the latter happening are only 1 in 1000000
 
One Eyed Willy

One Eyed Willy

Member
I have a 7 and 4 year old. I do none of this stuff, or try my hardest to avoid parenting by fear at all costs. I don't read books on how to raise kids either, it's actually quite instinctual if you use common sense.
 
B

bahamut zero

Member
scamander said:
Maybe you should have followed the news more closely in the 90's, then. As a matter of fact the world (or at least Germany) isn't worse today. Stuff can happen and that's always been the case. That's still no reason to deny children a normal childhood and playing alone with friends outside (or doing things independently in general) is a huge part of that.
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I'm sure therapy will heal the deep emotinal scars my kid will suffer from having to take a gps tracker with him.
 
A

AbortedWalrusFetus

Member
Fisty said:
Yeah but "it's statistically improbable" doesn't sound so good after your kid gets snatched off the street by some nutjob. Every parent that deals with abduction most likely figured that it wouldn't happen because the odds are so small.

Unsupervised group stuff outside is alright, but I'm not turning my kid loose for hours at a time. I'd rather be a "helicopter parent" than "father of the victim" even if the chances of the latter happening are only 1 in 1000000
Click to expand...

This is similar to the person who plays powerball daily in case they win. You need to be cognizant of the costs. It can be absolutely fine to behave that way, if you are cognizant of the costs. The cost could be the confidence or wellbeing of your kid, or their ability to function in the wide world competently as an adult. Obviously this has to be balanced against all sorts of other behavior that adds into the results in the end, but I don't think it should be casually dismissed as a non-factor.
 
E

Emperor_Uriel

Member
Fisty said:
Yeah but "it's statistically improbable" doesn't sound so good after your kid gets snatched off the street by some nutjob. Every parent that deals with abduction most likely figured that it wouldn't happen because the odds are so small.

Unsupervised group stuff outside is alright, but I'm not turning my kid loose for hours at a time. I'd rather be a "helicopter parent" than "father of the victim" even if the chances of the latter happening are only 1 in 1000000
Click to expand...

Would you say that the parent of the child who gets abducted did something wrong? In my mind, it's a tragedy and the only person who deserves blame is the criminal.

The fact is that any number of random things could kill/harm one's child, being a helicopter won't save them from bad luck.
 
XOMTOR

XOMTOR

Member
My sister lives across the street from the school and the entrance is fully visible from her front door. My niece still wasn't allowed to walk across the grounds and cross the street on her own until 3rd grade.

Of course, she's a helicopter parent anyway so it's not odd to her.

Case in point, she just called and asked if I could drive my 10 year old nephew and 7 year old niece down the road to the church as she has to work late. The church is 1.2km away on the same road they live on and we live in a rural town of less than 1500.
 
Captain Zyrain

Captain Zyrain

Member
My wife is all about those (subjectively stupid, my opinion) Facebook "mommy groups" and I swear to God it's made her 1000% (estimate) worse. There is a nonstop barrage of horror posts about bad things that did/may have/could happen to your child.

It's like the normal shitty scary news, but pinpointed expressly for a mothers fears. AND YET.. she can't get enough. I assume the rest of the members are the same way, because there are a million of them. Like it's some sort of "Well, since I'm part of the group I know about (whatever dangerous thing is happening this week) so my kid is safe!"

I like to think I'm better, but I don't know. My biggest thing was cutting the hot dogs up length-wise when the kids were really little so they wouldn't choke.

Sort-of side note.. we all went camping near the beach this weekend, and I let the 10 and 14 year old go down to the beach alone, but instructed them not to go in the water (younger boy can't swim great). They had fun catching sand crabs and being semi autonomous, and it felt good.
 
H

Hoo-doo

Banned
jwk94 said:
You can't honestly tell me your place doesn't have a bad part of town.
Click to expand...

I live in Nijmegen, the Netherlands.
It's a student city, 200.000 people live here and honest to god I wouldn't know any area i'd feel legitimately unsafe in, no matter the hour. Maybe some blocks off in Hatert? I really don't know.

The village I was born and raised though? It has 6000 inhabitants and there simply wasn't a bad part of town. There still isn't. Everywhere people know each other and look out for each other if required. My mom was a teacher there. All kids cycle/walk to school and back home. It's the standard. Once I hit the age of 12 I cycled to my 'middelbare school' 15 kilometers away. Every single day. Every other kid did the same. You think any parents cycled along? It's crazy to even think about it.
 
P

PrivateWHudson

Member
Mesoian said:
I mean, you're being facetious, I get it.

But it's called a cellphone. Damn near every child in America is being tracked. Foster independence, but don't be lazy either.



Latch key kids are a problem everywhere. It's not their fault their parents weren't ready for them.
Click to expand...

Hell no. I'm not paying AT&T an extra $30 a month for my kids to run around with phones with dead batteries. They'll get phones when they have a job and can pay the fees.
 
S

Sho_Nuff82

Member
In Amsterdam, our daughters play for hours in front of our house while I’m inside working. In Boston, I wouldn’t dare leave them for five minutes in Titus Sparrow Park. It’s not about safety. It’s about the judgment of those playground-patrolling parents.
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Ah, the author's first mistake was moving to the South End.
 
W

Work of an Enemy Stand

Member
The place I go to train judo is all-ages, so there's a bunch of children who train there.

I can understand some parents being there (even if I think it's going a little overboard) like the ones with 8-year olds or younger.

I will never understand the mother of the 12-year old triplets who stays there the entire time: old enough to go there by themselves, with strength of numbers even, and still have mommy keeping watch over them every step of the way.

Big props to the parents there who train along with their kids though!
 
P

PalaceBrother

Member
PantherLotus said:
Can you fucking imagine letting a 9 year old little girl walk home by herself every day?
Click to expand...

My daughter started walking home from the bus when she was 9. Three blocks away in a very residential suburban area.

She's now almost 11 and will be riding her bike to a friend's house (about 8 blocks away) next week. She needs to cross at a stop light to do so and I'm scared about it. Yeah, I know that's lame. Still very worried.
 
L

LinkAndEpona

Banned
Worried about your child's safety? Just get Child Tracker!

611_img-10.jpg
 
J

Jeronimo Jones

Member
Emperor_Uriel said:
Would you say that the parent of the child who gets abducted did something wrong? In my mind, it's a tragedy and the only person who deserves blame is the criminal.

The fact is that any number of random things could kill/harm one's child, being a helicopter won't save them from bad luck.
Click to expand...

I think this still misses the point. I assume a good parent's priority is protecting and caring for their child, not feeling justified that it wasn't their fault if something bad happened.

The parent will have to deal with whatever internal guilt and doubt regardless of being absolved or blamed by society.
 
S

Sectorseven

Member
Not being a parent I'm not really sure where to stand on this. I suppose I had helicopter parents and this is anecdotal, but my father has brought this subject up a few times over the years. He was a free range child in the 60s as was common then, and encountered a fair amount of shady characters. His parents wouldn't even know where he was most of the time, and in retrospect he thought that was incredibly irresponsible on their part.

The current situation is probably just the pendulum swinging in the opposite direction.
 
S

spekkeh

Banned
Kids don't jump off 30ft high bridges come on now.

While it's flattering to read as a Dutchman, I think it only explains part of the difference.

A similar article was written early this year in the British Telegraph, and I think it's better written and hits closer to the truth (though they also mention the unsupervised children playing):
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/family/raise-worlds-happiest-children-time-went-dutch/

Comparatively to other countries, the Dutch apparently place a bigger importance on that children should be children. There's generally no homework until a kid is twelve-fourteen, no pushing to get into the best schools. The parents have on average thirty days vacation time, a lot of people work part time.

There's a tall poppy syndrome culture, which has its own problems, but it helps that kids don't become a trophy to parade around.

Dutch birthdays, and most other celebrations, are more about celebrating togetherness. There’s no attempting to outdo the Joneses – or, in the case of the Dutch, the Heinekens – in terms of expensive birthday presents or fancy clothes. There’s a silent pact that presents for your children’s friend’s birthdays should cost no more than €10.
The Dutch opt for time, not money, and practicality over luxury goods. What Dutch children grow accustomed to in childhood sets them up for life: they are pragmatic and confident, unhampered by anxieties about status.
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I think that plays a part in it. That and a lack of suburban sprawl. The USA really needs to create more local centers in their urban planning, have amenities in walking distance everywhere. Both to combat obesity and bring back community cohesion. People I know moved to the US. When they arrived they invited the neighbors over for coffee to make acquaintance. Apparently the neighbors were shocked, in twenty years nobody had really invited them over "just because". You only got invited over if the neighbors wanted to show off something new that was better than what you have. Now obviously this was California, so it will be quite different in less, ah, outward appearance driven regions, but it's kind of what happens I think if people have to drive miles for all of their shopping, schools, and other business. You get less and less opportunity to actually meet anyone, and social gatherings get more and more forced. That's not how careless open ended play arises among children.
 
S

SecretSphere

Member
Hoo-doo said:
I live in Nijmegen, the Netherlands.
It's a student city, 200.000 people live here and honest to god I wouldn't know any area i'd feel legitimately unsafe in, no matter the hour. Maybe some blocks off in Hatert? I really don't know.
Click to expand...
Maybe some parts of Willemskwartier and Dukenburg?
 
F

Fisty

Member
AbortedWalrusFetus said:
This is similar to the person who plays powerball daily in case they win. You need to be cognizant of the costs. It can be absolutely fine to behave that way, if you are cognizant of the costs. The cost could be the confidence or wellbeing of your kid, or their ability to function in the wide world competently as an adult. Obviously this has to be balanced against all sorts of other behavior that adds into the results in the end, but I don't think it should be casually dismissed as a non-factor.
Click to expand...

I'll take an apprehensive/shy kid over a raped/murdered one. He may not agree now, but he will one day. I was a latchkey kid with practically zero supervision so I know what the dangers are (and count myself damn lucky I made it out unscathed). Besides, it's not like I'm chewing his food for him and making him wear a helmet while playing in the yard.

Emperor_Uriel said:
Would you say that the parent of the child who gets abducted did something wrong? In my mind, it's a tragedy and the only person who deserves blame is the criminal.

The fact is that any number of random things could kill/harm one's child, being a helicopter won't save them from bad luck.
Click to expand...

...no? Where did I say or imply that? Bad shit happens, it's a matter of minimising risk. Ask any parent of an abduction victim and I'll bet you good money they would sew themselves to their kid's back if it meant they didn't have to go through that nightmare.
 
A

Akuun

Looking for meaning in GAF
XOMTOR said:
My sister lives across the street from the school and the entrance is fully visible from her front door. My niece still wasn't allowed to walk across the grounds and cross the street on her own until 3rd grade.

Of course, she's a helicopter parent anyway so it's not odd to her.

Case in point, she just called and asked if I could drive my 10 year old nephew and 7 year old niece down the road to the church as she has to work late. The church is 1.2km away on the same road they live on and we live in a rural town of less than 1500.
Click to expand...
I remember a kid from elementary school who lived across the street from school. Like, right across the street. He could see the school's front door from inside his house.

The kid's mom drove him to school every day. All the other kids laughed about it.

I remember walking home as a kid since around 3-4th grade, usually with a sibling. They were usually 10ish minute walks since we lived fairly close to our schools, and lots of other kids did the same. My parents warned us about what to watch out for, but for the most part we weren't supervised.
 
M

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
PaulBizkit said:
Well, that's great and all for you high elves living in Elysium. But I live in south america and underaged girls can and WILL get kidnapped as soon as you leave them alone on the street. She can be walking home from school and, all of a sudden, a white van parks in front of her, 5 guys grab her, take her in, and your little princess ends up sucking dicks in Paraguay for the rest of her life.

If you have a son, just tell him to give everything to the thief and he'll be safe (any meth head can kill you unintentionally, but at least your son can escape).
Click to expand...
PaulBizkit said:
I know, but that "In Amsterdam life is perfect" part made me mad as all hell
Click to expand...
That part was clearly about first-world countries, not kidnapping slums and hellholes. No need to get "mad".

WraithBringer said:
Perhaps I didn't stress how much more common these events are becoming. Children weren't safe at the Arianna Grande concert. There's a lot of people who worry for the welfare and safety of their children more than ever.

I'd like to clarify that isn't purposefully being used distastefully as an example but given a child from my town died in that concert, it's shocking to think just how unsafe places have become that are supposed to be safe.
Click to expand...
What on Earth are you talking about? How would parents' presence have saved the kids at that concert? This freak terrorist attackhas nothing to do with general safety and helicopter parenting...

daxy said:
It's not that these events have become more common, it's that reports of such events have proliferated through the 24 hours news cycle and the democratization of reportage through social media. It's an illusion. Western society is safer than it ever has been.
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This.

Poor GRIMES said:
Are you men? 🤔
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I'm not. I walked to and from school as a kidm starting age 9 or so IIRC. Never, ever felt in danger.
 
H

Hoo-doo

Banned
SecretSphere said:
Maybe some parts of Willemskwartier and Dukenburg?
Click to expand...

I've personally never felt unsafe in Willemskwartier and I cycle through that area a lot while commuting.
It does have some sketchy streets but there's usually quite a lot of kids playing outside.

Don't know about Dukenburg, can't recall ever having been over there in the 4 years i've lived here.
 
Oppo

Oppo

Member
Yeah I walked/biked back and forth to school pretty much from grade... 3 on, I want to say?

Was a smallish city in Ontario, Canada. Also was one of those kids who went into the woods all day in the summer and came back when the street lights came on. My mom was a teacher and welcomed all of this.

I asked her the other day if she's let us do that today, and she said "probably not". When I asked why, since there is less crime now than back then, the answer was essentially "I'd be worried about what the other parents thought of me".

Glad I had that childhood experience, it taught me a lot.

The thing about driving your kids vs letting them walk is pretty interesting (safety wise). I also see this in parents who buy a SUV instead of a minivan because "they are not minivan people" yet that is a basic safety calculation that is easy to make.
 
M

Mammoth Jones

Member
My neighbor let's his kids play outside. But only directly out the door. Which is in the parking lot. With constant through-traffic. There's grass on the other side for play but that'd require mom or dad to actually go outside if they wanna keep an eye on their kid. So they play in the street. Cause they don't want em to get kidnapped. But they'll eventually get hit by a car

Article cherry picks examples to back up their point. What about ethose of us that don't know our neighbors or their predilection? Sorry, I'll give the kid a ride since I get constant notifications that sex offenders move in the area. Which brings me back to the reason why my neighbors literally let their kids play in traffic...
 
J

JABEE

Member
I would imagine people living in the United States own more killing machines, speed around in their killing machines, text and talk on their phone while speeding around in their killing machines, own more killing machines for their protection, feel emboldened by the law to carry their killing machines and use them if the right kind of fear strikes them, and own animals in larger quantities with the potential to maim young children than people living in Amsterdam. Add in dashes of crushing economic strife and its easy to understand why American parents are afraid to let their young children walk home from school alone.

If you are a young person in their 20s, your world has been constant cycles of 9/11, horrible institution-rattling recession, and gritty blood-splattered crime dramas. Never have you had access to more real, recorded violence than what the internet has provided generations of children now becoming parents.

The world is a scary place. It always has been.

Remember the good old days when people trusted institutions. Back when everyone believed Catholic priests and college football coaches over their own children. What society needs more than ever are parents who are more indifferent and less involved in their children's development and happiness.
 
P

Pandora012

Member
I think where a kind is growing up matters a lot.

I know when I was growing up, in the inner city I was given loads of freedom. Walk to and from school, staying out late with friends, and staying home alone. Just as long as I told my mom where I was, everything was okay. I moved to the suburbs when I got older, you do notice that parents are always around, that for the most part most of the kids weren't able to be independent.

Edit: I think I started walking to and from school around 7/8 or so. Also, I think that was around the time where I was able to stay home alone.
 
Oppo

Oppo

Member
Mammoth Jones said:
My neighbor let's his kids play outside. But only directly out the door. Which is in the parking lot. With constant through-traffic. There's grass on the other side for play but that'd require mom or dad to actually go outside if they wanna keep an eye on their kid. So they play in the street. Cause they don't want em to get kidnapped. But they'll eventually get hit by a car

Article cherry picks examples to back up their point. What about ethose of us that don't know our neighbors or their predilection? Sorry, I'll give the kid a ride since I get constant notifications that sex offenders move in the area. Which brings me back to the reason why my neighbors literally let their kids play in traffic...
Click to expand...

Well, I'll probably risk some wrath for this, but the guns in your home don't exactly bode well either, statistically speaking.
 
P

Pandora012

Member
PantherLotus said:
Can you fucking imagine letting a 9 year old little girl walk home by herself every day?

That's just one example of this boomer finding yet another reason to blame gen x and younger parents for fucking everything.
Click to expand...

I can, I was one of those 9 year old girls. Really depends on where you live. Lived in the city, knew most of the people around me, so it was safe.
 
M

Mammoth Jones

Member
Nerfgun said:
Well, I'll probably risk some wrath for this, but the guns in your home don't exactly bode well either, statistically speaking.
Click to expand...

If you don't know the difference between a firearm in a bolted safe and a pedophile on parole I really don't know what to tell ya.

If the shit was on the couch and my kid playing with shells like it ain't shit then yea, fair point. Till then not really.
 
F

Freeza Under The Shower

Member
MugiwaraCole said:
/thread

Gets even more complicated with people of color tbh
Click to expand...

It doesn't in the Netherlands, unless you go live in a rural area.

You can refute me (or us) on that, but that is reality here. Doesn't mean there might not be other issues later on, but any kind of formal discrimination is illegal here. Seriously, you have no idea how alien most of the "US state does X against people's rights" threads are.

Or even the UK's behavior lately.
 
T

thehypocrite

Member
On Saturday I was playing basketball in an open school playground with 3 other friends, there was nobody else taking advantage of the sun and the space. Not even kids, in my country you'll see a lot of kids playing around on a park like that one. There's something odd about these behavior. I don't know if it's fear but it could be.
 
M

MattKeil

BIGTIME TV MOGUL #2
Everyone in my grade school walked or biked to and from school every day from around 6 years old and up (early-to-mid 1980s). Girls and boys. We were out unsupervised constantly. We were fine. Stranger danger is bullshit, getting hurt while playing is part of growing up. A lot of kids were in more danger at home, frankly.
 
F

F34R

Member
Most of my childhood was in England. I was hitting the teens in 6months when we moved to the United States. Nothing really changed. While in England, we rarely saw our parents after breakfast and before dinner. During school breaks, was even more freedom. If we could walk/bike to where we needed to be in a reasonable time, that's what we did. Otherwise, we would be in a car or on a bus.

Fast forward to coming to the US. The only real difference was learning that there was sales tax lol. Buying candy was difficult. 5p was 5p for most of my life. Coming here (US), 5c meant 6c. Mind blowing for sure. Still, we weren't parented very much. We went places, no parents. We walked, biked, hitched (stupid I know), or hitched on a passing train that was going in the direction we wanted to go. That saved us a lot of time going 10 miles down the road instead of walking. We aren't talking passenger trains either. hehe

These days.. most of the places my kids need to go aren't within walking distance, and we are just off a major highway so bikes aren't really a safe option in my opinion. However, when we go places, the mall, parks, etc., they are cut loose. If we lived now, where we did when I was growing up, I wouldn't have any issues with letting my kids have the freedom we had in my youth.

Just sayin'... figuring out sales taxes as a kid was very frustrating.
 
C

ClosingADoor

Member
Most Dutch towns are set up for biking, so kids can actually go places and get there safely. Plays a large role also I think. If you need to go everywhere by car, then the kids need to be brought everywhere and picked up. If they can get there themselves safely when young, they can also go other places and have more freedom.
 
T

TickleMeElbow

Member
Kids are running around my neighborhood unsupervised all the time, just like my friends and I used to.

Some of them talk shit too lol.

Like, wtf do you do when a gang of 5th graders start talking shit?
 
V

Vicetrailia

Member
Well when I was a kid my parent over-practiced laissez-faire.

I hate unmitigated freedom, but it came at a cost. I wasn't prepared for the real world and make countless mistakes. But I was on the extreme end. Parents should let their kids play!
 
B

BigDug13

Member
Mesoian said:
Yes. Imagine 6 year olds doing the shopping.

Granted this is a Japanese fluff piece, but it's pretty much solely intended to push their kids as young as 4 to be able to function independently in order to do simple things like attend/return from school or go to a corner store unattended.

Until I hit 7, I was expected to be able to get to school, after school activities and home independently with very little deviation (baseball practice was across town when I played so that was an issue). If I ever have kids, which is extremely unlikely, I'd assume that they'd have to do the same.
Click to expand...

It was crazy when I was stationed there seeing really young kids riding the train, getting off at a busy stop in Tokyo, walking around the most populated city on Earth (I think?) like it's nothing. Would never happen in NYC subways for example.
 
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