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Robert Boyd: "Why Games Like The Wonderful 101 are a Poor Fit for the Gaming Press"

foxuzamaki

Doesn't read OPs, especially not his own
The press reception of Demon's Souls and Dark Souls almost stick out as a glitch this generation. I dunno; with the way those games are talked about and name-dropped so much. Sometimes I feel as if the gaming press is proud of them because they give you street cred if you say you played them.

Then it's right back to business as usual, heh.

Yes one thing I have noticed, with some review of games, a new IP comes out, gets mediocre to even bad reviews, consumers themselves get their hands on it, it starts selling more than originally did and the public loves it, the sequel comes out, reviewers give the next game a 8-10 on the point scale despite the core gameplay being the same, just polished in areas that will naturally make the game better in former weaker areas.
 
i don't remember demon's souls having hype, quite the opposite.

Demon's Souls had a very loyal and vocal following by the time that it reached the US. Word of mouth spread for it very quickly and you started seeing more and more people import the game. So by the time that it hit the US it was pretty well established to be a fantastic game that you just had to give some time to because it was going to kick your ass.
 
Like I said, that's fine. I appreciate those games and even enjoy them to some degree. I'm talking about my own experience with the game; I can't vouch for anyone else but myself. I just know that during my time with the game it reminded me of games I grew up on, that were all about the gameplay but also had a story and dialogue and colorful characters. Again it's totally cool for different kinds of experiences to exist; I want them to. They have a place and I enjoy them, but I'm speaking in relation to this game as the article leans on it as a title that, I feel anyway, is a title that the industry needs more of. Games like TLOU and GTAV get tons of attention and fair enough, they're incredibly amazing games-- but I don't like that games like Wonderful 101 are getting largely ignored simply because it isn't some super graphically amazing, cinematic experience.

Is ignored because is a WiiU game, with touch controls, little marketing and released in NA the same week against GTA V.
 
Going forward, I think Platinum Games would be wise to adopt the same strategy. Release their games only in Japan, let importers hype them up and discuss what their games do both right and wrong before reviewers touch them and then release the western versions.

This is depressing. Not because I disagree, but because I do. At least, I guess I see where your logic is coming from. It shouldn't have to be that way.

Is ignored because is a WiiU game, with touch controls, little marketing and released in NA the same week against GTA V.

Those are certainly elements, but it's like, the Wii U has been getting more and more games-- pretty damn good ones too-- so I wonder how many more great games it needs before being a "Wii U game" is a positive thing?
 

ctothej

Member
Didn't Dark Souls review decently?

Since everyone keeps bringing up Demon's Souls and Dark souls:

Before anyone gets the wrong idea, I’m not saying this to badmouth the gaming press. Skill-focused games that don’t have an easy analogue in a pre-existing genre are hard to get into for a lot of people. Not having that community support structure online to help makes things even harder. But as someone who loves new experiences & loves a good challenge, it’s frustrating when many of my favorite games, games that I think are expertly crafted (except for, perhaps, not doing a good enough job teaching the depths of their gameplay) don’t get the respect that they deserve. And it’s frustrating because by not understanding these games & by reviewing them negatively, we’re actively discouraging creativity in game design.

And this is not just a “Oh, the game is too hard.” Hard games can get good review scores… if they’re firmly based in a reviewer’s background knowledge. Like take Dark Souls for example. Dark Souls is expertly crafted & has a lot of creative ideas, but it’s firmly grounded in the Action/RPG dungeon crawl genre. It’s not wildly creative; they took a well-established idea, added some neat ideas, and then did a fantastic job with everything.

Compare that to something like The Wonderful 101. If you had to stick it in one genre, you could call it a highly technical Brawler/Adventure game like Devil May Cry. But then you add shape-based controls. And transformations. And minor RTS elements. And level design that completely changes everything on a regular basis the likes of which hasn’t been seen since the NES Battletoads. And then you add a focus on perfection & improving your score like you’d see in a hardcore bullet-hell shmup (the game gives you a score & a rating every few minutes) and it’s no wonder that a lot of people are having trouble mentally parsing it.
 

Jarlaxle

Member
Where it gets to be a lot more hit & miss is when the press is faced with a skill-focused game that doesn’t easily fit into a pre-established category. These are games designed to be played over a period of months, honing your craft & improving your scores & times, not rushed through to see what happens at the end of the story. And if the reviewer doesn’t even realize that this is a skill-focused game and instead thinks that the game is an experienced-focused game because it’s single-player and has a story? Heaven help the developer of that game who is hoping for a good metacritic score because they’re not going to get it.

I feel like I see this alot in games media. They want to rush through to the end so they can get on with the next thing. I understand that's part of their job but I feel like this causes a sentiment amongst both the gaming media and the gaming community that is constantly trying to ride the new hot thing. It feels like people don't sit down to enjoy their games instead rushing through so they can get on with the next tentpole so they can discuss with their friends. The whole idea of zeitgeist amongst gamers is troubling to me.

I wish there was a world with no reviews. I really don't think they help anyone. The people that pay attention to them are the people who already know about the games and can pretty much predict how a game will be based on all the media that is out there before the game comes out. The people a review might help aren't going to go online to read one anyway. I believe reviews are actually more about an elitist sense amongst the gaming media to laud their personal opinions over a game's fate in the popular mindshare so they feel more important about themselves.
 
This is depressing. Not because I disagree, but because I do. At least, I guess I see where your logic is coming from. It shouldn't have to be that way.

Didn't neccessarily help Xenoblade, though Nintendo really drug their feet on that so who's to say? Although I guess it reviewed pretty well, but by the time it came to the US I think the reviews were just reissues. Be interesting to see if Bravery Default gets a warm reception in the west.
 

hatchx

Banned
I'd just like to chime in that W101 is one of the best action games I've ever played......and this topic makes me depressed.
 

Ouren

Member
We're making a skill-based action game with fighting game elements.
I hope we don't get similar treatment.
 
The press reception of Demon's Souls and Dark Souls almost stick out as a glitch this generation. I dunno; with the way those games are talked about and name-dropped so much. Sometimes I feel as if the gaming press is proud of them because they give you street cred if you say you played them.

Then it's right back to business as usual, heh.

Super Meat Boy was very well received critically as well, despite it's challenging nature.

But it's a very simple platformer at the end of the day. It's not something that plays in a really unique way that you have to wrap your head around like the Wonderful 101 or Kid Icarus: Uprising.
 

VariantX

Member
I just watch let's plays on you tube and twitch at this point. I might not be able to know much about a game prior to its launch, but at least I can see more clearly what the game looks and plays like and can make a better purchase decision based off that.
 
Because the Gaming press instead of being an unbiased independent source of critique and review tends to instead be a bought arm of marketing divisions

I have the gut feeling that it will be hardly unbiased even without market intervention. Maybe because tends to happen a lot in other mediums before and after the mordern corporate world.
 
Didn't neccessarily help Xenoblade, though Nintendo really drug their feet on that so who's to say? Although I guess it reviewed pretty well, but by the time it came to the US I think the reviews were just reissues. Be interesting to see if Bravery Default gets a warm reception in the west.

It did have a wimpy launch though, it was only available at Gamestop as far as I recall. Still, I don't suppose it would have killed it even if it were available at other retailers, although it would have helped a bit.
 

Kai Dracon

Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
Super Meat Boy was very well received critically as well, despite it's challenging nature.

But it's a very simple platformer at the end of the day. It's not something that plays in a really unique way that you have to wrap your head around like the Wonderful 101 or Kid Icarus: Uprising.

SMB has been praised by the short attention span generation because it exists in such simple momentary bites ha ha. Even its challenge couldn't undermine that inherent appeal I suppose.
 
General gaming consumers are just as bad though and Platinum Games just has overall bad luck. Look at Okami, Bayonetta, and Viewtiful Joe sales. These games scored extremely well, but sold pitifully.
 

foxuzamaki

Doesn't read OPs, especially not his own
Didn't neccessarily help Xenoblade, though Nintendo really drug their feet on that so who's to say? Although I guess it reviewed pretty well, but by the time it came to the US I think the reviews were just reissues. Be interesting to see if Bravery Default gets a warm reception in the west.
This is wrong, infact it helped xenoblade alot, so many people bought xenoblade that nintendo had to send in second batch of stock to gamestop because so many people wanted the game, so many people wanted even when it went out of print that it was highly sought after and prices for it skyrocketed on places like ebay because of demand. nintendo themselves never gave numbers but said they were really satisfied with sales, this also helped with the last story, which became Xseed's most successful game.
 
Didn't neccessarily help Xenoblade, though Nintendo really drug their feet on that so who's to say? Although I guess it reviewed pretty well, but by the time it came to the US I think the reviews were just reissues. Be interesting to see if Bravery Default gets a warm reception in the west.

Xenoblade had a 92 Metacritic. And it's a JRPG (a genre heavy criticized this gen) that's exclusive to the Wii (a console that it seemed like many in the press ignored). So i'd say that it worked pretty well.
 
This is wrong, infact it helped xenoblade alot, so many people bought xenoblade that nintendo had to send in second batch of stock to gamestop because so many people wanted the game, so many people wanted even when it went out of print that it was highly sought after and prices for it skyrocketed on places like ebay because of demand. nintendo themselves never gave numbers but said they were really satisfied with sales, this also helped with the last story, which became Xseed's most successful game.

Didn't know this. Glad it did well, then.
 

Gsnap

Member
It was a long quote edited into this podcast I think. But I don't know who was speaking when they started going on about how they don't want to suffer challenge, and would rather the game make them feel as if they were accomplishing something.

Thanks. Haven't listened yet, but the concept just seems so strange to me. Like... wouldn't someone who plays a lot of video games understand when a game is "tricking" them (for lack of a better word)? Wouldn't the knowledge then make them NOT feel like they were accomplishing something? I mean, I understand if people don't want to be challenged, but then, why would they want to "feel" challenged. Hell, what does that even mean?
 
This is depressing. Not because I disagree, but because I do. At least, I guess I see where your logic is coming from. It shouldn't have to be that way.

Those are certainly elements, but it's like, the Wii U has been getting more and more games-- pretty damn good ones too-- so I wonder how many more great games it needs before being a "Wii U game" is a positive thing?

The problem is that the WiiU is in the middle of the console transition. So is against the whole 360 and PS3 catalogue of this year and also against the attention of the new consoles.
 

Timeaisis

Member
I have to admit, I'm about halfway through TW101. It was hard at first. Really hard. But, I persevered through because I knew it would be worth it. And guess what? It was. I'm on 006 and it's really quite an amazing game when you "get it". The problem with reviewers is they never get past that frustration stage. There's definitely something Platinum could've done to ease the frustration a tad, but do we really need to fault them for reviewers not taking the time and due diligence to "get" the game before assigning it a score.

That's the difference between reviewers and players. Reviewers have to play it, give it a score, write a review, and move on. Gamers focus on one game at a time, play it a lot, and invest in it. It's awesomeness unlocks as you go. I felt similarly to Bayo when it released, although not as much because the mechanics "click" easier, but it's still a problem with reviews.

I wish some reviewers were capable of seeing past their initial frustration and it's tiny flaws for the game as a whole, but instead they tend to knee-jerk react to novel experiences like this because they simply don't have time to figure the whole think out. Compare that with an established genre where reviewers basically already know the core mechanics, and can dive right into the the meat without so much as a learning curve.

It just annoys me that these reviewers have so much damn sway on the market. Their lack of journalistic integrity basically killed TW101 chance's of being a good seller.
 
This is depressing. Not because I disagree, but because I do. At least, I guess I see where your logic is coming from. It shouldn't have to be that way.

I know. There are a few writers out there that are great at giving games a chance and breaking them down but they're a small minority.
 
Super Meat Boy was very well received critically as well, despite it's challenging nature.

But it's a very simple platformer at the end of the day. It's not something that plays in a really unique way that you have to wrap your head around like the Wonderful 101 or Kid Icarus: Uprising.

To be fair, there were legit complains with Kid Icarus, as some people would actually feel pain because of the controls. Nintendo knew it, the stand was there for a reason. I play Kid Icarus without just fine, but I know that not everybody would actually do it. Is a little like some people having problems adjusting to two analogue controllers in a 3D world, but a little more uncomfortable.
 

zroid

Banned
Specifically, the bit about how reviewers often feel, if they are putting in that "little bit extra" effort into certain games which demand it, they incorrectly believe they are giving it unfair treatment rings very true. It's the wrong attitude to have, and unfortunately I believe it's absolutely widespread.
 

remz

Member
This is wrong, infact it helped xenoblade alot, so many people bought xenoblade that nintendo had to send in second batch of stock to gamestop because so many people wanted the game, so many people wanted even when it went out of print that it was highly sought after and prices for it skyrocketed on places like ebay because of demand. nintendo themselves never gave numbers but said they were really satisfied with sales, this also helped with the last story, which became Xseed's most successful game.

You stole my avatar. :mad:
 
Hmm, yeah... I noticed a lot of reviews that popped up immediately following the European release of W101 were a lot lower than some of the ones that came out closer to the U.S release.
 

udivision

Member
Monster Hunter is like the king of this. You can't "get" it until at least 10 hours later, and not many people have that kind of time to invest in a game they don't' know if they like. The payoff is potentially hundreds of hours of enjoyment though.
 
Honestly I feel I notice this more with GOTY awards than reviews.

When being assigned a game in a genre they don't understand, especially under notable time pressure, sometimes reviewers will just assume the best of the game to the point of insanity (hello Empire: Total War).

However, when we get around to GOTY voting, it's often incredibly hard for a title based around co-operative multiplayer, competitive gaming, or a systems driven design to have good odds of winning because it's not something that every journalist can pick up and immediately have a good time with unless they have friends with similar interests, an interest in honing a specific competitive skillset, or a want to dig into the unique interlocking mechanics of a title that may otherwise seem foreboding and/or directionless.

Thus, almost everything that wins GOTY is a game that has an experiential and/or cinematic, accessible singleplayer campaign. Some level of systems design (like in open world games) is workable, but it needs to live strictly in the framework of the former (like say a Rockstar game does, but Minecraft won't).

That kind of consensus voting often comes down to what's the most accessible "great" game in the room. Anybody with a functioning brain can sit down and experience Journey or see The Walking Dead to the end. Not everybody is gonna get nuances of the mechanics in Wonderful 101 or learn how to properly play Street Fighter 4.

The Oscar voting is like this as well pretty often. There's a couple outliers like No Country for Old Men and the Hurt Locker, but history has shown the the least challenging, most accessible, more obvious "great" films will win out when all the votes come together. Morally grey films, complex subtle films, films starring non-white hetereosexual males, films not in English...thanks for playing.
 

Ceadeus

Gold Member
I don't care about the reviews. Games like thèse will continue to flow like they always have. We'll continue to appreciate them and the devs know it.
 
I wonder if it's not just gaming press per se, but the fact that everything is online now. In the age of magazines, there may have been more time to spend with a game before deadline to really get into it and understand it.
 

Cels

Member
demon's souls and dark souls were well reviewed because reviewers already knew what the game was trying to be. just looking at a short clip or even a few screenshots you could tell that it's an action rpg. the games weren't particularly innovative in that sense.

how do you explain TW101 to people? you have to play it and struggle with it a little to understand what the game is all about.
 
This is wrong, infact it helped xenoblade alot, so many people bought xenoblade that nintendo had to send in second batch of stock to gamestop because so many people wanted the game, so many people wanted even when it went out of print that it was highly sought after and prices for it skyrocketed on places like ebay because of demand. nintendo themselves never gave numbers but said they were really satisfied with sales, this also helped with the last story, which became Xseed's most successful game.

Xenoblade had a 92 Metacritic. And it's a JRPG (a genre heavy criticized this gen) that's exclusive to the Wii (a console that it seemed like many in the press ignored). So i'd say that it worked pretty well.

Yea I realized after I posted I made a mistake. Xenoblade actually did rate well, and was only really hamstrung by Nintendo's reluctance to release it in the West. My bad, poor example. Perhaps a better example would be Monster Hunter. Those come out in Japan well ahead of the West and don't get received too well and don't sell (comparatively at least) as well either.
 

VariantX

Member
Monster Hunter is like the king of this. You can't "get" it until at least 10 hours later, and not many people have that kind of time to invest in a game they don't' know if they like. The payoff is potentially hundreds of hours of enjoyment though.

Would also say fighting games in general. If it dosen't have a ton of distractions away from the core game itself (mainly a story mode), then its potentially going to take a hit in its reviews.
 

Big_Al

Unconfirmed Member
You have a crappy memory or weren't paying attention. Importer hype was the only reason Demon's Souls was ever localised in the first place.

The asian version of Demons Souls also already had an english localisation when it first came out which only helped its cause. I remember taking a chance on it when it first came out, one of my best blind purchases ever :) Got the original HK version sitting on my shelf.
 

joe2187

Banned
Who is Robert Boyd and is he saying reviewers suck at video games?

The guy that made the Cthullu saves the world, breath of death( I think?) and the Penny Arcade game sequels. And is in the process of making a pretty awesome new game right now.

And he's not saying game reviewers suck, he's saying games like TW101 are hard for game reviewers to score properly because it doesn't really fit the mold of any other games, and there is a skill barrier that frustrates game reviewers simply because it's too time consuming to actually be patient with the game and score it as it should, thus why you'll always have reviews saying "finicky controls" or "difficulty is very agressive" when it's completely fine.
 
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