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CES: Mantle API news thread [BF4 up to 45% faster, Star Swarm demo flies on Kaveri]

Durante

Member
I'm shocked people believe all this to be honest, once you've been following PC gaming and hardware for long enough you see these kinds of claims every couple of years.

Someone actually clued up will investigate, identify how Mantle does X Y and Z completely incorrectly, causing buffer blah blah something or others and majorly bad AA or really shitty lighting in some situation or something like that.
I could believe a prioprietary API could get some benefits but 45% ? Overnight? Suuuuuuureeee
Nah, it doesn't have to be any obvious "cheating". If you carefully design the testing scenario and select the right CPU for the comparison I can totally see 45% (or more!) happening. The real question is how much of that remains in a normal game scenario (and, for most of us, with a fast Intel CPU).

In hard GPU limited situations, it doesn't seem that Mantle will increase your fps
That's another thing, I expect the difference to get smaller at higher rendering resolutions.

Basically, I expect Mantle to be really advantageous at the low-end, particularly for APUs, since they are generally more CPU limited (and since you usually target lower res at that level), decent at the mid-end and less significant at the high-end/enthusiast level (where you generally use a really fast Intel CPU and target really high IQ). We'll see how wrong or right this expectation is once a set of independent benchmarks is out.

Would it still beat directx on an nvidia card?
It won't run on an Nvidia card. If your question is "if NV implemented Mantle support", then it's hard to say since we still don't really know just how focused on GCN type hardware Mantle is. And of course, for many reasons this is very unlikely to happen.
 

Dmented

Banned
Everybody likes to quote John Carmack on this, but he said this before Steam Machines specs were released, and all the beta hardware had Nvidia GPU's.

Granted, Mantle is platform "agnostic" in the sense that Nvidia can choose to release a Nvidia compatible Mantle API, AFAIK there's nothing that stops them from doing so.

Those are from Valve as test platforms. Nvidia has much better Linux driver support than AMD so it only makes sense to use an Nvidia GPU when giving 300 people one of them for free to test. A Steam Machine comes in all sizes and specs, AMD GPUs are included in this. So what Carmack said is still correct.

About Mantle being "platform agnostic" I find this weird as mantle supposedly only works on GCN, correct? Either they would have to change a lot of things to get it to work on Nvidia GPUs or Nvidia would have to adopt GCN which is not going to happen. I've heard it a few different ways from AMD/DICE. One day they say it's platform agnostic the next they say it's GCN only. Make up your mind.
 

ViciousDS

Banned
It's still a multi GPU solution and still brings the same issues. It's not a good solution next really if you want a proper gaming machine.

hm, guess ill have to research more....maybe that's why they don't offer real high end APU's because its not worth it atm due to difficulties with programming.

I'm guessing ill just rock an intel radeon combo when I build one later this year.
 

kinggroin

Banned
Nice performance gain, but even though I'm probably going AMD with my next upgrade, I really hope this fails to find wide adoption. I just have this worst case scenario in my head where Nvidia have to respond with their own API because of how adopted Mantle is and it would just lead to this saga where developers have to support Direct3D by default for compatibility, then an OpenGL version if SteamOS gets any traction. But that's not all, then you've got a Mantle codebase in there and/or an Nvidia API one.

I doubt they'd do 4 versions, so it'd probably end up with a situation like the 3DFX V PowerVR days where most games support one or the other. Then you've got a situation where it's not an overall price/performance for the card you want, it's a price/performance for the games you're interested in for each brand of card.

That makes zero sense.


It'll be nothing like the "old days". They are going to support the most popular API FIRST; unless publishers and developers are no longer in the business of making money.
 
I'm shocked people believe all this to be honest, once you've been following PC gaming and hardware for long enough you see these kinds of claims every couple of years.

Someone actually clued up will investigate, identify how Mantle does X Y and Z completely incorrectly, causing buffer blah blah something or others and majorly bad AA or really shitty lighting in some situation or something like that.
I could believe a prioprietary API could get some benefits but 45% ? Overnight? Suuuuuuureeee
Oh and the developers then need to target a completely different output, the days of OGL or DirectX when playing a game seem mostly gone now, it's a lot of work, let's just add another one in, they won't mind that!

Yeah,... no.

For a guy that's been following games/hardware for years, you don't seem to have any idea about what you'e talking about.
 

R_Deckard

Member
No Way... This will be 45% based on the Weakest APU settings, I predict this will be closed to 5-8% on my 7950 and beyond cards.

It probably has some lower level procedures that are more efficient but this will not hit this figures on a Separate Graphics solution, I will await my BF4 test...when are they actually out?
 

hesido

Member
Those are from Valve as test platforms. Nvidia has much better Linux driver support than AMD so it only makes sense to use an Nvidia GPU when giving 300 people one of them for free to test. A Steam Machine comes in all sizes and specs, AMD GPUs are included in this. So what Carmack said is still correct.
.......
Fair point with linux support, but I think Steam OS not supporting mantle throughout diminishes the threat factor. My second post vaguely illustrates why.



.....

About Mantle being "platform agnostic" I find this weird as mantle supposedly only works on GCN, correct? Either they would have to change a lot of things to get it to work on Nvidia GPUs or Nvidia would have to adopt GCN which is not going to happen. I've heard it a few different ways from AMD/DICE. One day they say it's platform agnostic the next they say it's GCN only. Make up your mind.

Please take a look at the 34th slide:
http://www.slideshare.net/DICEStudio/mantle-for-developers

It says mantle is not tied to GCN hardware, what is being said is, the mantle you'll see on Frostbite will work on GCN.

There's no denying it would require substantial amount of work from Nvidia to get Mantle to work with their own hardware tho.
 

ViciousDS

Banned
Please take a look at the 34th slide:
http://www.slideshare.net/DICEStudio/mantle-for-developers

It says mantle is not tied to GCN hardware, what is being said is, the mantle you'll see on Frostbite will work on GCN.

There's no denying it would require substantial amount of work from Nvidia to get Mantle to work with their own hardware tho.

yup, it looks like they are trying to make it easily workable on all graphics solution not just GCN tech.

slide-34-638.jpg
 

Dmented

Banned
Please take a look at the 34th slide:
http://www.slideshare.net/DICEStudio/mantle-for-developers

It says mantle is not tied to GCN hardware, what is being said is, the mantle you'll see on Frostbite will work on GCN.

There's no denying it would require substantial amount of work from Nvidia to get Mantle to work with their own hardware tho.

I don't recall them ever saying that but it does make more sense. Otherwise it would be weird for them to flip flop like that. Thanks for the info.

Fair point with linux support, but I think Steam OS not supporting mantle throughout diminishes the threat factor. My second post vaguely illustrates why.

Well besides Mantle another thing interesting to me is low level OpenGL extensions both AMD and Nvidia are apparently working on. That of course works on all platforms. I'm looking forward to that more than Mantle.
 

bj00rn_

Banned

ViciousDS

Banned
I remember when me even suggesting this raised a shit storm from our resident "experts"

looks like they might have to attempt to block some bullets with teeth then, I was confident this wouldn't be GCN only, plus anything for the most part that AMD has made hasn't been private tech I think even TressFX is open to nvidia to use unlike PhysX which is locked to Nvidia tech.

To me its better for the API to be open as it allows tons of developers to easily jump into stable tech and develop games much quicker.


EDIT: now that I think about it....it looks like its more expectations then to what is the now, as in its still GCN only.
 
upto 45% does make sense for an APU given the CPU benefits of mantle. BUt I imagine the affect for high end GPU and CPU configs will be less impressive on average. I will wait for the denchs from multiple configs.

I remember when me even suggesting this raised a shit storm from our resident "experts"

That is still hugely debatable just so you know. That slide is from Johan anderson and his "wants" from Mantle... currently its code ONLY works on GCN and has GCN specific pointers.

There is no reason why these could not be generaliyzed to other archtiectures... but that would require work by AMD to abstact... Nvidia to accept that... etc...

Those "experts" still had a good idea of what they were saying. Just so you know.
 

hesido

Member
Well besides Mantle another thing interesting to me is low level OpenGL extensions both AMD and Nvidia are apparently working on. That of course works on all platforms. I'm looking forward to that more than Mantle.

I think Tim Sweeney mentioned that when asked about Mantle in that Q&A with JC and Repi., he also shares this view.
 

Leb

Member
An interesting exercise, to be sure, but like everyone else, I'd like to see some real numbers from some real games.

Glad there's finally a proper fight, again, though. G-Sync vs Mantle, good times.
 
upto 45% does make sense for an APU given the CPU benefits of mantle. BUt I imagine the affect for high end GPU and CPU configs will be less impressive on average. I will wait for the denchs from multiple configs.



That is still hugely debatable just so you know. That slide is from Johan anderson and his "wants" from Mantle... currently its code ONLY works on GCN and has GCN specific pointers.

There is no reason why these could not be generaliyzed to other archtiectures... but that would require work by AMD to abstact... Nvidia to accept that... etc...

Those "experts" still had a good idea of what they were saying. Just so you know.

Naw, the conversation was that this is virtually impossible for Nvidia to use. Just so you know...


looks like they might have to attempt to block some bullets with teeth then, I was confident this wouldn't be GCN only, plus anything for the most part that AMD has made hasn't been private tech I think even TressFX is open to nvidia to use unlike PhysX which is locked to Nvidia tech.

To me its better for the API to be open as it allows tons of developers to easily jump into stable tech and develop games much quicker.


EDIT: now that I think about it....it looks like its more expectations then to what is the now, as in its still GCN only.

Of course it is. You thought otherwise?
 

ShadyJ

Member
If it takes off and replaces DirectX both Green and Red win, if its as fast as they say it can be this will push cards out the door more so than now.

The fact that its open is an indication it may become a thing.
 

Seanspeed

Banned
If it takes off and replaces DirectX both Green and Red win, if its as fast as they say it can be this will push cards out the door more so than now.

The fact that its open is an indication it may become a thing.
Nvidia adoption is far from a given even if it is actually open. They would be behind AMD in terms of progress, so would basically be allowing a long-lasting advantage to their competitor til they catch up fully(if they ever do). It might serve Nvidia better to ignore it and continue on as they are. Developers are less likely to put in the work for Mantle if its only going to be useful for a percentage of their customers.
 

SparkTR

Member
Mantle will be dead by 2015.

Dollars to donuts the only support AMD has for it is out of pocket. None of these stupid things will ever take off if they need specific cards and limit themselves so much.

nvidia probably pays for physx shit to be put in games too.

The only things that will stick are the things that dont need extra money or resources from developers.

There could be lots of support for Mantle, I remember reading an article from a emulator developer who said developing emulators around Mantle could lead to breakthroughs. Nvidia support would be ideal, but anything to give DX a kick.

Hell, good performance on low-end cards could open an entire market to higher end PC games.
 

artist

Banned
Are you saying that you expect the relative difference between Mantle and DirectX11 to be independent of the benchmark resolution?
No, thats you putting words into my mouth.

Your point is most likely correct but you took a horribly wrong post to respond to..
 
yup, it looks like they are trying to make it easily workable on all graphics solution not just GCN tech.

slide-34-638.jpg

Well if this slide were to happen, and NVIDIA has an option to incorporate Mantle, that would make Nvidia+GSYNC a no brainer right now. I guess the best case is there is some give back from Nvidia allowing other vendors to use GSYNC hardware? Still, I'm dubious of that scenario at this time
 
So if low level access is that benificial for even pcs, why the hell have we not seen this before?

Oh well, at least we have mantle and gsync in the same year.

Lazy devs*.

No, really, this is one of the few times that the usually silly "lazy devs" term can be kind of true.

* of course, it's not really "lazy", but just devs that thing the effort is not worth for the generated sales on the pc. For example J. Carmack said that similar improvements could be done with some OpenGl extensions for Nvidia. So I ask myself, why didn't Rage use it? Because the same reason Rage was kind of a lazy port: they believe the sales are on consoles.
 
45%. That's almost too good to be true, but at the same time that's what I was hoping for.

"Up to"

It's just BF4, a normal FPS. Those are gpu bound, normally. The real gains are in cpu-bound games. RTS like Oxide engine shows, or games like Arma 3. Really, Arma 3 (And dayz!) needs this shit. A 300km2 terrain with several thousands objects on screen (each tree, each bush, each fence, each house and wall and lamp post) with 5kms of draw distance and a one or two hundreds AI units running consumes ALL THE CPU, so the reduced cpu overhead in the render would help A LOT.
 

Durante

Member
* of course, it's not really "lazy", but just devs that thing the effort is not worth for the generated sales on the pc. For example J. Carmack said that similar improvements could be done with some OpenGl extensions for Nvidia. So I ask myself, why didn't Rage use it? Because the same reason Rage was kind of a lazy port: they believe the sales are on consoles.
To be fair, many of the recent efficiency breakthroughs in OpenGL happened after Rage was released (and certainly after it was developed).
 
To be fair, many of the recent efficiency breakthroughs in OpenGL happened after Rage was released (and certainly after it was developed).

I'm still salty about Rage :p

The game was broken on pc... you know why? The difficulty. Even nightmare difficulty was easier than "normal" on a old id game. They clearly designed the game for consoles [controllers] and they didn't bother to at least tweak the gameplay values (health, damage, etc) for the pc version. 6 years of development, and they couldn't use 1 week to make a more appropriate gameplay tweaks for the pc version.
 

Zarx

Member
Any idea when the patch will be arriving for BF4? Weren't we supposed to get it back in November?

Some time after the major bugs are patched out. It was a casualty of EA's we are stopping everything at DICE until BF4 is fixed PR initiative.
 

artist

Banned
Well if this slide were to happen, and NVIDIA has an option to incorporate Mantle, that would make Nvidia+GSYNC a no brainer right now. I guess the best case is there is some give back from Nvidia allowing other vendors to use GSYNC hardware? Still, I'm dubious of that scenario at this time
If you know Nvidia then most likely thats not going to happen.
 
Nah, it doesn't have to be any obvious "cheating". If you carefully design the testing scenario and select the right CPU for the comparison I can totally see 45% (or more!) happening. The real question is how much of that remains in a normal game scenario (and, for most of us, with a fast Intel CPU).

I think it depends what's the "normal game scenario". Let's imagine for a moment a normal game, a derivative cover-based linear third person shooter. I think the gains on that type of experience will be minimal. Like, 10% with luck.

Something bigger, with more players, more action, bigger landscape and more destruction like Battlefield, it could be 20%.

And if we switch genres and jump a a Sins game, something with thousands of units, or Arma games, that makes emphasis on a detailed, persistent world with simulation, the gains could be 100% (supposing you have a 1000$ gpu to not touch the gpu-bound roof before).

So what I think it could be interesting if Mantle gains traction, eventually in x years something like this it's a standard (let's imagine it forces Microsoft hands to make a more low level Directx 12), it could bring new types of experiences with a bigger, wild scope.
 

Osiris

I permanently banned my 6 year old daughter from using the PS4 for mistakenly sending grief reports as it's too hard to watch or talk to her
There is no way nvidia will support this, they would be hitching themselves to a wagon they could not control.

More likely they will develop a competitor that offers similar low-level access.
 
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