perfectchaos007
Member
One day I hope to get a legal rub and tug at a massage place in America. As of now those places run the risk of being raided
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Why is there no major movement to legalize Prostitution?
- Thread starter Emperor_Uriel
- Start date
You're right, but I think it's funny to imply that puritanism isn't involved here because it can't explain Scotland. The reason the Scots didn't have a puritan movement is because the Puritan's main goal was to make England more like Scotland.
Edit: actually this make sense considering you were saying it was legal in Scotland. I guess I'm just confused because of that poster saying it's not totally legal in the UK. Did he mean England and Wales? The OP already said there were legal complications in NI.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
The newest argument I've seen is sex trafficking. Except you don't exactly need sex trafficking if you can hire locals.
Yep.
Seriously, the issue is more complicated that the usual "lol puritanism" memes that plagues gaming side.
American Puritanism, imo, is why it won't even be brought up as the beginning of an idea for most politicians. If it got to that point, then yes, it would be far more complicated.
Primethius
Banned
Mostly. The goal is to protect the women who is being forced into prostitution by removing entirely what happens in other places: police arrest sex worker and buyer, both go to jail. Women is a victim, but ends up suffering even more through no fault of her own.
That's under the assumption there's locals that want to be prostitutes, and if they were employeed in good faith.
Quite frankly, anyone that stands up for legalization of prostitution will get branded as some pervert. regardless of how cogent and fact based arguments they have their opponents will brand them as such to discredit them. Society seems to have issues with that and don't want anything to do with people that are branded as such.
Human Trafficking.
Really it's not like legalizing pot where you just grow the stuff. You have to find people who are either willing or are forced to be willing. That's the problem with legalizing prostitution. You may jump start a million "private business owners" but then there's always going to be people using other people to meet demand.
Also humanity is still failing pretty hard at treating women as equals and I personally don't know if the selling of sexual favors is something that will better or worsen that.
You would need to regulate the shit out of it to happen and frankly I don't think the US is capable or ready.
Really it's not like legalizing pot where you just grow the stuff. You have to find people who are either willing or are forced to be willing. That's the problem with legalizing prostitution. You may jump start a million "private business owners" but then there's always going to be people using other people to meet demand.
Also humanity is still failing pretty hard at treating women as equals and I personally don't know if the selling of sexual favors is something that will better or worsen that.
You would need to regulate the shit out of it to happen and frankly I don't think the US is capable or ready.
Primethius
Banned
See below.
Precisely. The demand for prostitutes is generally significantly higher than women actually entering the field. And that gap is a lucrative field many organizations love to fill up quickly.
If you legalized prostitution across America tomorrow, you won't find remotely enough women willing to work in the field as demand will have risen for them and will continue to rise across time. And where are all those, largely what will end up being underage girls, come from?
Moose Biscuits
It would be extreamly painful...
As with all issues, sex robots are the best answer.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
There's a ton of assumptions here, and how is it different under legality than it is now?
These theories about sex trafficking under legalized prostitution seem to operate under the assumption that it would make street walkers and pimps legal, which it generally doesn't.
xBladeM6x
Member
This.
Also because doing something sensible to make the lives of everyday people less arduous, or something that will take away from the private prison industries' influx of "criminals" isn't the American way.
JustSomeone
Member
Because prostitution IS legal?
Sort of. It gives control of the situation to the woman. She could get someone arrested for breaking her rules, being abusive, harassing her, etc. without going to jail herself. If she were reputable and you weren't a creep/moron there'd probably be no issue.
Primethius
Banned
What are the assumptions? There are studies that have talked about exactly what I described.
David H Wong
Banned
In that sense it's very similar to plural marriage. In THEORY there should be no problem with one dude marrying four women, but in practice this has led to a very bad deal for the women - they're often not entering into those marriages willingly. It's harder to separate out the bad parts than you think.
SkeptiMism
Member
So, will OP consider things like this at all?
And more so, the people rambling about puritanism etc etc.
Thank you. Besides the statistics not being nearly so simple as that one could say legalizing it is only a good thing, the subject really isn't so simple in itself otherwise either.
But it's cool to make comments about how there's no point other than people being puritanical, I guess. To be fair, there are a lot of issues in how people view things like nudity and sex especially compared to violence, but reducing the issue to one simple reason like that is sad and silly.
elrechazado
Banned
A woman's right to control their own body and monetize their chosen profession should be a fundamental right. Trafficking can happen just as much in the pornography industry, but we don't outlaw that. Not to mention the fact that in most places where prostitution is illegal, it's perfectly legal to pay for sex if it's filmed and sold.
No moral objection but solving trafficking, abuse, health and discrimination challenges would be formidable.
Most places with it legalised have issues with all of above so far as I'm aware and just making it legal doesn't solve them.
Major regulation, social and medical headache to support this.
Most places with it legalised have issues with all of above so far as I'm aware and just making it legal doesn't solve them.
Major regulation, social and medical headache to support this.
While I absolutely agree that the issue is far more complicated and nuanced than that I guarantee you that "lol puritanism" is the #1 reason that it's illegal in America. Sure, there are much better arguments against legalized prostitution and major problems with it, but the majority of the country doesn't give a fuck about that. If someone asks why there's no major movement to legalize it in America then "puritanism" and political suicide should be the first answer on your list, then you go through the actual arguments against it from there, but they're completely secondary in this country.
By this logic, abolishing the minimum wage would just create an extra option for people to work for unfair wages. But they don't have to, so it's fine, right? Same for dropping workplace safety regulations: people would have the option of working at an unsafe coal mine, but nothing's forcing them to...
In some ways think of the government as a union, a form of collective bargaining. We all say together, "We're not willing to work under X conditions, or for less than a certain wage." And the economy has to adapt to that. Because without those regulations, individuals who have to compete with each other for resources are incentivized to race to the bottom.
Emperor_Uriel
Member
A good read. I wonder if this says more about the nations' ability to combat the criminal underworld than it does about prostitution itself?
The act itself isn't the problem here, but it seems clear that legalization would also require strict regulation. I'd assume that this would be less of an issue in a hypothetical scenario where prostitution was always legal and free of stigma, as the disparity between the massive spike in demand and the number of women filling that demand is the core issue.
Darryl M R
Member
Extra options does not equate to good opportunities and protection for individuals.
Here are some other papers on prostitution talking about the effects the women in it face, to go along with the one discussing human trafficking that was already posted.
BlackRainbowFT
Member
Here in Switzerland it's perfectly legal.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Switzerland
Sometimes I think we're a very odd country... right-leaning and gun-toting protectionists with some really progressive ideas and some not-so-progressive ones (women gained the right to vote in 1971).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Switzerland
Sometimes I think we're a very odd country... right-leaning and gun-toting protectionists with some really progressive ideas and some not-so-progressive ones (women gained the right to vote in 1971).
This is something I've been thinking about for sometime and I still have no idea where I stand. I think it's extra strange because living in maybe the most liberal country in the world is full of paradox. Prostitution is legal for the person selling unless a outsider/pimp takes a cut but it's illegal to buy it. Anybody who would say openly they're a prostitute would be shunned by most. At the same time one of the biggest movements here revolves women being able to do whatever they want with their bodies.
Two summers ago I was working as supervisor for a city program to teach youth some manual labor, basically light gardening work, for those who wanted it. And of course the kids would get money for their work. 1-2 months prior to the summer #freethenipple swept the nation, so much so that the biggest newspaper had four topless women on the front page, a congresswomen posted a picture of her topless and so on. During a group meeting of supervisors, about 30 people, before we met the kids I asked how we should handle it if some of the girls (14-15 year olds) wanted to work topless like the boys have done in hot weather. I barely finished my question before 5 coworkers started yelling at me for trying to suppress women, not knowing I was in favour of the movement. I just wanted to makes sure I wouldn't be accused of some kind of crime by the parents.
These kinds of topics are a minefield.
Two summers ago I was working as supervisor for a city program to teach youth some manual labor, basically light gardening work, for those who wanted it. And of course the kids would get money for their work. 1-2 months prior to the summer #freethenipple swept the nation, so much so that the biggest newspaper had four topless women on the front page, a congresswomen posted a picture of her topless and so on. During a group meeting of supervisors, about 30 people, before we met the kids I asked how we should handle it if some of the girls (14-15 year olds) wanted to work topless like the boys have done in hot weather. I barely finished my question before 5 coworkers started yelling at me for trying to suppress women, not knowing I was in favour of the movement. I just wanted to makes sure I wouldn't be accused of some kind of crime by the parents.
These kinds of topics are a minefield.
I'd argue that the legality has nothing to do with the objectification. And the transactional nature of prostitution is an objectification in and of itself. "Communication" has nothing to do with the realities of it.
The prostitute is still treated as a fungible tool or mechanism for getting off. And he or she is being reduced to a physical body.
BrassDragon
Member
This used to be my field before I moved to counter-terrorism.
The quoted reports state that legalization means more reports of human trafficking, in other words more discovery. That's a logical consequence of sex workers and their enablers being more cooperative and open with the authorities - suddenly stuff that was underground comes to the surface.
Nowhere is there any credible evidence that the number of actual trafficked human beings goes up or down based on policy measures. The total sum of human trafficking is, in law enforcement terms, a 'dark number' - our best criminologists can only estimate the volume but it's impossible to measure accurately as of 2017.
More discovery does NOT mean that legalization 'leads to' more human trafficking. More discovery is a good thing for those of us who prefer to fight this evil with the clearest possible picture.
But a lot of policy makers and citizens would prefer to have the problem disappear under the rug so we can pretend it's not happening in the shadows.
The quoted reports state that legalization means more reports of human trafficking, in other words more discovery. That's a logical consequence of sex workers and their enablers being more cooperative and open with the authorities - suddenly stuff that was underground comes to the surface.
Nowhere is there any credible evidence that the number of actual trafficked human beings goes up or down based on policy measures. The total sum of human trafficking is, in law enforcement terms, a 'dark number' - our best criminologists can only estimate the volume but it's impossible to measure accurately as of 2017.
More discovery does NOT mean that legalization 'leads to' more human trafficking. More discovery is a good thing for those of us who prefer to fight this evil with the clearest possible picture.
But a lot of policy makers and citizens would prefer to have the problem disappear under the rug so we can pretend it's not happening in the shadows.
UnemployedVillain
Member
Because the Bible, even though Jesus was totally friends with prostitutes, so who knows
Tell me more, no i am not asking for a friend i am just genuinely curious.
hobblygobbly
Member
It's not perfect in Germany concerning brothels and the human trafficking that still occurs but it would be worse if it wasn't legal.
Since there are many types of brothels (such as gay ones for men), everyone working in prostitution man or woman have more protections working in this field by law, brothels have to operate to a standard for hygiene and women's health (both physically and mentally) because it is a legal work place. Brothels are frequently checked up on.
Also it's important because clients to brothels are more accountable legally, it lessens the freedom of abuse.
Again, human trafficking still occurs primarily from Eastern Europe, there are often raids but authorities are constantly working on it, I think it's better than if it was completely illegal. Brothels are still involved with crime such as drugs and the mafia, it's not perfect, but I personally think it's better than if it was all left to be criminal and underground. There is more transparency and help for men and women involved than there would be otherwise.
Since there are many types of brothels (such as gay ones for men), everyone working in prostitution man or woman have more protections working in this field by law, brothels have to operate to a standard for hygiene and women's health (both physically and mentally) because it is a legal work place. Brothels are frequently checked up on.
Also it's important because clients to brothels are more accountable legally, it lessens the freedom of abuse.
Again, human trafficking still occurs primarily from Eastern Europe, there are often raids but authorities are constantly working on it, I think it's better than if it was completely illegal. Brothels are still involved with crime such as drugs and the mafia, it's not perfect, but I personally think it's better than if it was all left to be criminal and underground. There is more transparency and help for men and women involved than there would be otherwise.
I agree with those who hold the views in your second paragraph. And I am not religious in any sense of the word. It's just logical to me that women are devalued by a prostitution-condoning society.
So it shouldn't be legalized.
metareferential
Member
Legal, and regulated (in modern countries, that is).
You want to do it? So be it, and be sure to pay your taxes. xD
And prostitution means men and women alike, of course.
GhostTrick
Banned
Because prostitution often goes in hand with modern slavery.
BrassDragon
Member
I'm sympathetic to this view.
But let's assume that prostitution, like the recreational use of narcotics, is going to happen regardless of pervasive morality and even legal enforcement. Even the harshest dictatorial and/or religious regimes in the world have been unable to stomp it out.
Is it not more sensible and humane to design policy around the acceptance of this phenomenon and putting the energy into mitigating the worst effects?
In theory. Saying men are massively outnumbered would be lowballing.
And not all modern countries.
GhostTrick
Banned
That's an old debate. These things happens regardless. The problem is wouldnt legalize it leads to accept it as a norm in our society ?
The answer is a lot more complicated than "lol puritans." If you have legalized brothels, you're still going to have young women working there that were teenage runaways that got turned out by some guy, only now it's legal for them to give $40 blowjobs at the expense of their well-being. I don't want to see any of these women in jail, but legalizing doesn't make all the parts of it that are really gross go away.
I would fully support legalized prostitution if no one was being seriously taken advantage of, if it was just a buyer and a seller who were making a transaction that they both felt good about. I don't really see that happening, so I'm not surprised no politician wants to touch it.
I would fully support legalized prostitution if no one was being seriously taken advantage of, if it was just a buyer and a seller who were making a transaction that they both felt good about. I don't really see that happening, so I'm not surprised no politician wants to touch it.
BrassDragon
Member
Well, I'm happy we've been making strides but it's not all rainbows and sunshine in the Netherlands either. However, I can unequivocally say that our ability to fight trafficking networks has been boosted dramatically by having most sex work 'above board' and accountable. Most investigative breakthroughs come from the sex workers themselves and you really don't want to put them in a place where they fear the cops more than the criminals.
It's hardly become a norm in my country, so... I don't know?
Acerac
Banned
I feel like there is something I'm missing here. Anyone mind helping out the slowest child in the classroom?
elrechazado
Banned
In prostitution, one person pays another for sexual gratification.
In porn, a third party pays one or multiple people for sexual gratification, which others then also pay for and consume for the same purpose.
In places where paying in exchange for sex is illegal, it is often perfectly legal to pay for sex if it's being filled for sale or ad generation.
Puck Beaverton
Banned
Should be decriminalized, legal is another thing.
Amibguous Cad
Member
Yeah, making it so that that runaway teenager can be imprisoned or extorted by the cops really makes his or her life better. I agree with you - legalization doesn't make the ugly parts of prostitution go away. The people exploited in this industry will be much better able to protect themselves if they know that calling the police won't result in them going to prison. It is a significant improvement, but at the end of the day being a survival sex worker is horrific.* Just not as horrific as the alternatives, and much less horrific than under a legalized regime.
In fact, it does the opposite of making it go away, and that's the problem. It allows these sex workers to rejoin mainstream society. They are more visible, at the expense of society not being able to pretend that they don't exist.
You can argue against legalizing prostitution on any number of fronts, but it stretches one's suspension of disbelief to claim that making someone's profession illegal makes them better off. This is not about the well being sex workers for you if you're in favor criminalization.
Sex workers are unanimous in pushing for legalization, and almost of them are also against the "Swedish model" of criminalizing Johns as well. You know how one important tenet of social justice is knowing when to shut up and trust that non-privileged people you're trying to help know what's best for them? This is a time to do that. Sex workers are in favor of legalization and until they're not, I'll defer to the people most affected by this legislation.
*Not every, or even most, sex workers are survival sex workers, and it is perfectly possible for the profession to be a good place to earn a living.
Moral Panic
Member
Why should the girl individually be allowed to discriminate? If it is just another job then they should not be allowed to run a business where they refuse to entertain a customer because of race, religion etc.
Not knowing how to do a hair style is very different though isn't it? I feel like you are dodging the question. If the girl says "I don't want to have sex with black/insert protected group here" do you believe we should use the same threats of fines (and prison if the fines are not payed) in order to force women to have sex?
Ha. It was nothing that remarkable. I just had a profile up on sleepyboy (gay UK escort directory) to earn extra money on the side.