Tal Shiar Agent
Member
You can't buy consent as money is coercion.
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Why is there no major movement to legalize Prostitution?
- Thread starter Emperor_Uriel
- Start date
Straight Edge
Member
Can sex for money truly be consensual?
capitalCORN
Member
Erm, so that invalidates all financial transactions?
Say what?
No, because in interacting with a (legal) prostitute the john has to go through the process of a normal business transaction and must communicate with their partner to get what they want out of them.
A fictional character has no agency outside of that implied by their writing, and frequently are written to be male sex fantasies anyway. Bayonetta is in that grey area where she can go either way, but the grand majority of female characters in fiction are not treated well (see the thread in off-topic about how often female characters get the worst lines).
Mind you, I am well aware that many johns will treat women poorly in general, but that is a consequence of societal misogyny and less so a feature of the profession.
capitalCORN
Member
Ever heard of a bussy? ;D
How is sex work different from any other line of work? Remuneration is provided for services rendered.
I lean towards being for it, lots of sound arguments, but I would need to see data/estimates of the effect on human trafficking, sex slavery, and stds if it became a movement. I can't come down for it if those numbers aren't good.
Edit: Independent call girls making really good money I'm totally ok with. And I think decriminalization of some sort on the prostitute's end might be good.
Edit: Independent call girls making really good money I'm totally ok with. And I think decriminalization of some sort on the prostitute's end might be good.
Tal Shiar Agent
Member
Depending on your view of capitalism, yes. Wage slavery is a very real thing.
Bingo bango bongo. Maybe not to the same degree, but this affects pretty much any nation with a substantial religious background as well. Most of Europe is out due to various forms of Christianity regardless of how many still practice.
Hari Seldon
Member
I'm not morally against it or anything, but I am against it because I recall seeing statistics that legalization increases human trafficking. That is a huge enough downside for me to not want it legalized.
Depends on how much is being made of course.
AppleSeason
Member
I've always been in favor of regulated prostitution. Specially if it included laws and protections, like in case of working on your own, have a properly sound insulated workplace. Workers being registered and evaluated on their conditions and health to prevent abuse and slavery... Dunno, something that makes it safer for whoever wants to work on it while keeping people away from slavery and drug abuse.
The problem would be that... Some would still want to work underground. Top tier ones that would not want to declare taxes, etc...
The problem would be that... Some would still want to work underground. Top tier ones that would not want to declare taxes, etc...
My employer is definitely buying my consent. I see no reason to think that sex work would be any different, but I suppose I'm open to hearing your argument.
capitalCORN
Member
Look, I'm two shades shy of militant left. But if instead of fiat currency, a john offered a prostitute to paint their house, would that make it better for you?
justjustin
Member
It'll only happen when enough men want to become prostitutes.
perfectchaos007
Member
Evangelicals would destroy any politician who supports legalized prostitution. They are ruthless in their campaigns. No politician wants to touch that issue with a 10 foot stripper pole
There are a lot of reasons that there isn't a movement, but the conflation of sex work and human trafficking is a huge part of it. Broadly, sex work is seen as something forced rather than something one would choose to do. A lot of places have adopted to Nordic Method which further strips sex workers of their agency.
Human trafficking does happen.
People can be coerced into doing sex work.
But... people can also choose to do sex work.
We need to treat sex work as real work, because it is. It's as valid a choice for work as driving a cab or cooking at a restaurant or being an anesthesiologist. Its prohibition causes way more harm than legalization would.
Human trafficking does happen.
People can be coerced into doing sex work.
But... people can also choose to do sex work.
We need to treat sex work as real work, because it is. It's as valid a choice for work as driving a cab or cooking at a restaurant or being an anesthesiologist. Its prohibition causes way more harm than legalization would.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
It's been legal in Turkey since the beginning of the time. The government regulates the sex industry strictly and it generates quite a lot tax. But it also makes Turkey a target for Moldavian/Ukrainian human trafficking criminal organizations, which Turkey is known for its years long combat against such organizations.
Huge percentage of Turkey's working prostitutes, male or female, are still Eastern European (Russian, Belarusian, Ukrainian), though.
Hari Seldon
Member
Does legalization increase or decrease human trafficking? The debate starts or stops with the answer to this question.
Moral Panic
Member
One question I have always wondered is whether prostitutes can discriminate against protected classes. Can a prostitute say "no black men" or is that still illegal discrimination? Should prostitutes be fined for discriminating against same-sex partners? If the prostitute decides they want to stop half way through, can he/she be sued for not fulfilling their side of the contract? If it is "just another job" then the answer is an obvious yes, but I want to hear your opinion.
Poodlestrike
Banned
Puritanism sorta leaks into everything. Even feminist thought is pretty far from unanimous on this. Legalizing prostitution wouldn't necessarily impart much more freedom, since the social pressures against it would remain immense, so you'd still get a lot of the problems you've got now.
bigmit3737
Member
Yeah but it's creating an extra option .
They don't have to enter that line of work but have an extra option .
Currently Low-skilled workers are stuck with very low paying jobs- and even getting an education isn't guarantee you will get a good job .
Plus those that already forced into prostitution would benefit from safety , hygiene , freedom.
AuthenticM
Member
Primethius
Banned
Here is a prominent study on prostitution leading to more trafficking:
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1986065
Generally, the method that works best in regards to protecting the women is to legalize selling sex but make the act of buying sex illegal.
Other issues with prostitution:
- Amount of underage girls
- Inadequate systems in place essentially legalize pimping rather than helping the women in any meaningful way
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1986065
Generally, the method that works best in regards to protecting the women is to legalize selling sex but make the act of buying sex illegal.
Other issues with prostitution:
- Amount of underage girls
- Inadequate systems in place essentially legalize pimping rather than helping the women in any meaningful way
Finale Fireworker
Member
I don't understand these "puritanical" comments. People oppose prostitution for far more nuanced reasons than "puritanical roots."
Prostitution, arguably the most controversial of the "vice" industries, is unpopular because people feel it commodifies women. They view sex for pay as coercive, not consensual. Feminist opposition to prostitution is based on the belief that prostitution is a misogynist construct to begin with and industrializing it legitimizes the idea that women are for sale.
There are other arguments that interpret sex as a form of labor and no different than any other labor-intensive occupation. There are arguments that women should be able to do whatever they want with their bodies. There are arguments that commercialized prostitution validates everything feminists oppose pertaining to the objectification of their sex and there are arguments that commercial prostitution liberates and deregulates women to make decisions about their own sexuality.
There is an immense amount of argument to be had over this topic and no conclusion, for or against, is "common sense."
Prostitution, arguably the most controversial of the "vice" industries, is unpopular because people feel it commodifies women. They view sex for pay as coercive, not consensual. Feminist opposition to prostitution is based on the belief that prostitution is a misogynist construct to begin with and industrializing it legitimizes the idea that women are for sale.
There are other arguments that interpret sex as a form of labor and no different than any other labor-intensive occupation. There are arguments that women should be able to do whatever they want with their bodies. There are arguments that commercialized prostitution validates everything feminists oppose pertaining to the objectification of their sex and there are arguments that commercial prostitution liberates and deregulates women to make decisions about their own sexuality.
There is an immense amount of argument to be had over this topic and no conclusion, for or against, is "common sense."
Oh yeah, Turkey.
There was a hugely sucessful soap opera some years ago here in Brazil that brought up this subject. I would guess it probably got some pretty big repercussion in Turkey too.
Seems like human traficking is a really big issue when talking about legalized prostitution.
Temeculan3000
Member
Individually yes they would be able to discriminate, the brothel or business could not discriminate. If no girl was willing to accept a customer I think they could refuse the customer on grounds that they cannot serve them.
Just like a hair stylist could refuse to do a certain hair style they have no knowledge in.
It's hard to say, because the country is so different depending on where you are (blue or red state). But if a democratic party representative tried to support legal prostitution then the republican opposition would just dig their claws deep with their christian values and etc just to win. In some regions it's gonna be religious reasons, and in others it's just looked down on in society. Taboo and all that. Americans don't like to openly discuss sex already so having a national debate on the news about it would just be humorous at best. Popular opinion would be that prostitution goes against family values, i.e. making it too easy for a husband to cheat.
Then why is prostitution legalized in the UK but not France? It's clearly more complicated than this.
This would actually make sense then if that actually mattered. If Puritans were anything it was anti-Catholic. The ones in America left England because they thought it was too Catholic.
The entirety of the South and West sides of Chicago are not war zones. This hyperbole does nothing.
This. We're pretty desensitized to violence, but put a nipple out there and people lose their shit.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Have there been any studies on legalization effects in the parts of the US that have legalized it?
I wish more states would experiment with it.
I wish more states would experiment with it.
Jezbollah
Member
It is more complicated than that.
In the UK, the actual act of prostitution (the exchange of sex for money) is not illegal. However, actions that initiate and aid in the act of prostitution (soliciting, running of a brothel for example), is.
You only have to look at the Netherlands and Australia who have made prostitution legal and provide the protection for those who provide such services to see how it's done properly.
bengraven
Member
When Jesse Ventura attempted to even bring up a conversation about this in Minnesota, there was a huge backlash, at least in the rural communities that I trafficked in, that it was only because he himself wanted to take advantage of it.
It's kind of like if a politician decided to drop the legal age of consent to 14...suddenly people are going to be rewatching campaign footage and seeing how he reacts to little girls...
It's kind of like if a politician decided to drop the legal age of consent to 14...suddenly people are going to be rewatching campaign footage and seeing how he reacts to little girls...
funkystudent
Member
It being illegal probably adds to the fun for a lot of customers.
I'm just going off the thread since I know nothing about prostitution laws anywhere. The OP should probably be updated with this if true, though I should have guessed something was up since it lists the UK as having legal prostitution, and contrasts it with Northern Ireland.
Anyway this point isn't particularly germane. American Puritanism is clearly not the answer because it's not like the rest of the developed western world has legalized prostitution.
That's exactly why a power aware framework could argue it was rape with society itself coercing sex. I don't necessarily agree, but I've never really thought of a good way around this issue other than being much more specific about what we mean by consent.
Ninja Scooter
Member
If it were legal I'd become a gigilo
Sunster
Member
ekk I hate the concept of prostitution. but I also realize it's always been around and it's probably not going away this millennia. so it's important we decriminalize it, regulate it and make it safe. greatly reducing the abuse and danger sex workers face domestically and denting the global sex slave industry.
Moose Biscuits
It would be extreamly painful...
Wait. Isn't that basically the same as it being illegal?
America's health system needs to be completely overhauled before we can even consider legalized prostitution. The current porn scene already is rife with medical scares that effect everyone involved and has no safety net to cover people who are afflicted with job-related disease.
We need to do so much before prostitution could be anywhere close to resembling safe. If we just push it through now, we'll return to 70's levels of female exploitation.
Yes, but it keeps men and women who are offering from winding up in a jail cell, an act that serves no one.
We need to do so much before prostitution could be anywhere close to resembling safe. If we just push it through now, we'll return to 70's levels of female exploitation.
Yes, but it keeps men and women who are offering from winding up in a jail cell, an act that serves no one.