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Itagaki is pretty pissed about Lisa's recent change in DOA
- Thread starter Nightbird
- Start date
Rhazer Fusion
Member
So yeah, Itagaki has openly written on Facebook how he feels about Lisa having a much lighter skin colour than in previous Games. He even goes that far and calls it discrimination. What do you Guys think about that?
Other quotes by him from the comments
His Post on Facebook
Lisa is not that bright in DOA5. Someone went crazy on the lighting or something.
This is definitely more accurate and it looks fine to me.
Lisa is not that bright in DOA5. Someone went crazy on the lighting or something.
This is definitely more accurate and it looks fine to me.
I don't know this since I don't have DOA5, but as i said before, I just used the Picture Itagaki used himself. I couldn't have known the heck himself isn't up to date
I wonder if turning evil giving you a tan is a trope of sorts.
The only other example that comes to mind is Kingdom Hearts, where exposure to darkness leads to tanned skin (hence the cloaks, for protection).
The Spoony Hou
Member
I never knew that. Interesting. Radiation maybe, lol.
Anyway, not that I get it, but I see it as a Japanese trope, and not racism.
justsomeguy
Member
Her skin color on the right is very misleading. This is what she actually looks like in the game
Yup. Skin colour's the ooooonly thing to get upset about in DOA's portrayal of women. Sigh.
(not aimed at you, Solidsnakex - this is just a general comment).
Might be an idea to add the other comparison pics with context, because people are coming in and seeing just the OP image, which is a bad example. They can make up their own minds when they see the other pics, then.
Had to laugh. It's a shames some people hate the color of their skin though.
This man needs to lean that there are many shades of delicious brown skin. 90% of the females I create in games have brown skin soo many options all amazing!
Um Umm I need this for future reference (don't judge me).
There is a serious angle though. Think of how we perceive ideas of beauty in society. The lighter the skin the more beautiful the person. Itagaki could be bullshitting with his comparison pics (better ones could have been used) but the idea of white washing or altering skin tone to appear lighter is not unheard of. Using image software to alter a picture of a model to appear more appealing has happened before.
LOL at people thinking thats supposed to be a tan
I always thought she was African American. Can anyone confirm?
Good idea, will do this this evening when I return home. I always mess pictures up when I'm on my phone
R_thanatos
Member
No. One screen is from the DOA4 beach, the second from the DOA5 forest.
They have totally different lightning conditions. ( yet look similar )
Your picture on the other certainly feel much different because the lightning is so different.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
So the argument now is "there's whitening, but is not as pronounced as Itagaki said!"?
At least is not the "he's just jealous" from the first pages.
At least is not the "he's just jealous" from the first pages.
R_thanatos
Member
Difference in character model from 2 different games with different engines.
The VF pic is an extreme case and DOA isn't near that point.
And yeah , itagaki doesn't make sense, here a simple google search would have tell him the truth . The picture he has used as an argument is FALSE ...and he keep talking about a franchise where he doesn't have any control on... since months .
Conclusion: "he's damn bitter"
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Sorry, I don't buy that, even in different cases the whitening is there. I think that's undeniably true.
Blaming it to "engines" is silly. Is clearly an "artistic" choice.
Phoenix Fang
Banned
An engine isn't going to change the skin color of a character, that is up to the person doing the texturing of the 3D model. So in other words, someone told the 3D artist to make her skin lighter, there is no bitterness from him. Maybe you should stick to something you actually know about.
dragonfart28
Banned
Came in expectation boob reduction comparison photos.
*disappointed*
*disappointed*
Yeah, because she's a real person that actually just spent more time outside and an artist totally didn't decide to make her skin darker for her evil character model.
THESE ARE FICTIOUS CHARACTERS! EVERY PART OF THEIR APPEARANCE IS A CHOICE MADE BY AN ARTIST, NOT THE ARBITRAY RESULT OF SOME CIRCUMSTANCE OF THEIR NONEXISTENT LIVES.
R_thanatos
Member
Actually , much can change depending on the amount of effects used. So yeah i'll stick to what i know. /s
Oh and anyone following the DOA news will know that he is bitter.. again ..i don't even see how that can be debated. /s
I'm not saying that no change was made. change like this happen. was it really possible to have the same skin effect on everyone given the changes that happenned during those 2 games ? i doubt it. You see whitening, i don't see it
Again :
So much for White....
silvermember
Banned
Then you must not notice a lot of things. In a lot of media white is good black is evil.
Let me give you an example of this: ying yang symbol. Another example the light side vs the dark side of the force. Lights is good dark is evil.
So no you only need to extend your media to see it is not a Japanese.
Journey
Banned
Her skin color on the right is very misleading. This is what she actually looks like in the game
For some contrast:
Your Pic leads me to the same conclusion. They changed her from her beautiful chocolate skin color to white.
Definitely is lightening from DOA4 to DOA5, but I still stand by the stance that they can do whatever they want with their characters, and if they felt altering her skin tone slightly better depicted what they want her origins and appearance to be, that's totally fine. This is not Vanessa reduction levels.
You can buy whatever you want, but it just isn't true. This is not whitening. DOA5 has more advance skin filters, texturing, and lighting. If the comparison ran in the same game environment as eachother there'd be a case.
I wonder if Lisa's older models are on the net, then I could bring it along with her DOA5 model and put them in the same situation and compare, but her old models textures would still be plain and less detailed.
Phoenix Fang
Banned
Actually you have no idea what you are talking but I'll let you live in la la land if you want to. Effects aren't going to change a characters skin color. We ported our project to 3 different engines with different varying effects and it never changed the skin tone of any of our characters.
Yes lets damn a man who actually cares about something he created. In a time where developers don't give a damn about what happens to their IPs, lets condemn someone who actually gives a rats ass.
We work with different skin textures on different engines, it is NOT going to change a characters color unless the artist wants it to. The supposedly new engine should have made it more accurate which it hasn't. So you can keep believing that nonsense if youwant to.
PaulExcellent
Member
This is such a cool fucking picture for reference when it comes to character design. Thanks for posting! My GF is already using it. lolThis man needs to lean that there are many shades of delicious brown skin. 90% of the females I create in games have brown skin soo many options all amazing!
Bomber Bob
Banned
the icecream turned into a golden penis
Suntanning can have quite a dramatic effect on someone's skin tone, so I think it may be a legitimate explaination for some cases. I am not familiar enough with DOA and it's characters to argue about this one though.
However, if devs whitewash characters because white skin has more appeal in their eyes, then that is terrible and bullshit (hell, even untanning characters is unnecessary imo). And judging by some gaf threads, this does indeed happen.
So go Itagaki and other people, call them out on it.
However, if devs whitewash characters because white skin has more appeal in their eyes, then that is terrible and bullshit (hell, even untanning characters is unnecessary imo). And judging by some gaf threads, this does indeed happen.
So go Itagaki and other people, call them out on it.
I don't disagree with you. There's plenty of different criticisms that can be levelled at the cast of Dead or Alive (and not just the females either), however threads discuss specific topics, and color is the topic for this thread. It's not exactly as if Dead or Alive's portrayal of women in general has been flying under the radar. Hell, it hasn't even been very long since the last time it was in the spotlight for this. Moreover, this is a topic that expands beyond Dead or Alive, as has been shown throughout this thread. Topics dealing with the sexualisation of women in games are quite numerous and frequent, and so I don't think their discussion in this thread is any more warranted than the discussion of skin color changes would be in those threads.
Actually , much can change depending on the amount of effects used. So yeah i'll stick to what i know. /s
Oh and anyone following the DOA news will know that he is bitter.. again ..i don't even see how that can be debated. /s
I'm not saying that no change was made. change like this happen. was it really possible to have the same skin effect on everyone given the changes that happenned during those 2 games ? i doubt it. You see whitening, i don't see it
Again :
So much for White....
There's one thing I'll definitely agree with you on here. Making any judgements based on a singular image is flawed, as there are numerous factors that can make the same skin color appear different in different images. However, this works both ways, and taking a single image of the original DOAXBV with the character cast directly under the burning sun, and comparing that to the character covered by forest shade isn't exactly like-for-like either. I can just as easily throw up this image from the original game too:
and we've already had a pretty clear DOA4 example, which you seem to be ignoring:
Still images can be rather misleading, but when seeing the character in motion you're able to get a much better perception of what is caused by lighting vs what the character's base skin tone actually is. Take a look at various points of this DOA4 playthrough here and contrast it with a similar playthrough of DOA5 here. To claim these changes are a result of the lighting is very dishonest.
That's fucking awesome!
My guess, evil= darkness, hence skin turns darker (eg akuma and e. ryu)
I'm sorry, who are you? What project? I'm afraid you lost me there. This IS a matter of improved graphics and nothing more, they didn't white wash her. Also Itagaki doesn't give a rats ass about this for any other reason than an excuse where he can bitch about DOA games not developed by him and look good doing it. Blows my mind how many people are taking him seriously.
The act of white-washing is a serious issue and is something that needs to stop, but it is just something Itagaki is proclaiming as a shield to bitch about DOA5 and Lisa has not even been white-washed.
Did you look at the two videos in my previous post? You actually think "improved graphics" is all that is? Seriously?
It doesn't seem to have affected anyone else in nearly the same way. Hell in the DOA5 vid, When stood next to Akira, Lisa appears only slightly darker than he does. Why is that?
R_thanatos
Member
So you're telling me that
a texture object under different lightning and under vastly different effects will always look the same ? you sure you know what you're talking about?
That man should care about his current projects , not an IP he has no rights to.
You're ignoring months of stupid rants from the same man.
New flash... Different artist has different values , for the same character. Old artist is not involved , slight change happens.
Whitening ? Nope.
Again ..i'm not arguing that no change was made to lisa. Many changes happenned ( on every freaking character ). i'm arguing that :
-itagaki case is void
-Lisa is still a black character
The Spoony Hou
Member
I'm just saying it's Japanese culture. It's not a nod to western culture's segregation or something. Nobles are pale, workers are tanned. Even if discriminatory, it's not a racial issue.
The ying yang symbol is about opposite types of energy, it has NOTHING to do with race. Light is good because our planet is nurtured by the Sun. It's a concept way older than slavery. You people are insane.
I think Dragon Ball is way more racist with their super-sayans and whatnot, but I don't see people complaining.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Video game characters get and lose tans when the console is off, simple science
Sorry to be that guy, but that's not true at all. The symbol actually represents a healthy balance and interaction between two opposing concepts, like how you need a male and a female to procreate. One is not good and the other is not evil.
Additionally, the Tao Te Ching has a section advocating the virtues of the black side. There is no corresponding section for the white side. As far as I'm aware, this is because the white side is masculine and the readers are likely to be male, so it's more likely that they'll have an excess of masculinity than femininity.
D
Deleted member 13876
Unconfirmed Member
A comic book artist recently made a post about being asked to draw a black character more like a Latin American woman recently:
https://thenib.com/lighten-up-4f7f96ca8a7e
https://thenib.com/lighten-up-4f7f96ca8a7e
Son Of Sparda
Member
Each time I open a Gaf thread I learn something new.I thought her design was based on the Ganguro style.
JB-the-Hunter
Member
As someone who is black, that reasoning is completely valid. Darkness representing evil, fear, etc. and light representing good, purity, etc. is a notion that has existed since the beginning. It's not something that has anything to do with race. There's a reason goth people are associated with jet black hair and dark makeup.
However, since skin color is such a senitive issue, it's not a good idea to aplly that line of thinking to a character's skin color. I understand why it's done though.
Phoenix Fang
Banned
And who the hell are you? What is your profession? What have you done?
I don't think I said that. Maybe you should learn to read better. lighting isn't going to drastically change a character's skin color. Maybe you should go outside once in awhile experience brown skin folks in different lighting situations and you will notice that it doesn't change drastically.
His rants is to his fellow friends he worked with on the IP. What's it to you? he created it and he still feel attached to it.
Really? Well we had 4 different artists that worked on on of our characters and it didn't change at all. Try again.
Wrong
I didn't say she wasn't considered a black character anymoree but her skin tone has definitely been lighten up. Reading comprehension is fundamental.Also go to Spec Savers.
R_thanatos
Member
Sorry but who the hell is "we" .. you're using this as a basis for your argument, and i'm totally lost.
I think i'm fine since i just need to look at my own skin to know what i'm talking about.
Most of his rants reek of bitterness .. "they don't know why something was there, they don't know the meaning of the team ninja logo, they don't know something else, i wouldn't have done this , this game doesn't play the way i like it"
You're not part of the company , and here is the end of the story... his input was not needed, it's a new team with new idea and a new direction.
He just refuses to accept that fact. he has no right on the character, so by definition he clearly need to stop ranting on something , he has legally not right to complain on.
If his goal was to say that he disagree with the new direction DOA has taken, then once or twice is enough , not every freaking month.
Again , who is "we" ..are you the only one on this forom who have done 3D modeling , or texturing ?
Ok , if you say so. thanks for the detailled answer.
Back to you , it's the point i'm making from the start.
Forgive me, I just perused Cia's wiki page and I didn't read where she became a worker out tending the fields. Is this a part of the fiction not included on the wiki page?
Whether it's an issue of social class or race, it's fucked up to make a character's skin darker because they are now "evil".
But this is OT, so I'll stop here.
No, it's not valid. Not when it comes to skin color. Or are you saying that it makes sense that evil characters should be represented by darker skin, while good characters are represented by light skin color? Should that also extend to reality, too?
It very much has implications on skin ton. In pratically every society where there are two major group with different skin tone, those who have darker skin treaty as lesser. It happens in India, it happens various East Asian countries. I can't think of a place where it doesn't. Many societies and idealoligies consider darker skinned people evil by default.
The Lisa from DOA4 made by Itagaki had Brown Skin. The iterations of her post DOA4 turned it into an orange tan and have lightened her up slightly which each incarnation.
The Spoony Hou
Member
You have your right to see it as a racial issue. If you think it's irresponsible of the designers to not see the racism repercussions of their work, that;s fine for me. I'm just saying that that's not what's in the their mind when they made her. It's feudal logic, not colonial.
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