demosthenes
Member
Separate family, split from the Targs, were originally bastards.
Point is the real Aegon Targ is dead.
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Separate family, split from the Targs, were originally bastards.
Point is the real Aegon Targ is dead.
Oldest Snake
Member
So either Jon will be back at Winterfell before the end of the episode (but still at Dragonstone at the start of it) or Bran is going to be doing some cross-country communication?
No, it's another house that's an off-shoot of the Targaryens. A bastard Targaryen was legitimized ~120 years ago and took the name Blackfyre (named after the sword Aegon the Conqueror used) as his new house name. Targaryen bastards aren't named Blackfyre.
The Artisan
Member
okay, so it's kinda like the Starks - Karstarks, in that it's a family tree that started from one root but branched out far enough to become its own.
Then yeah, the Blackfyre guy isn't really a Targaryen, just because he has people from that family. By that logic, Gendry would be a Targaryen too.
Or the simpler answer, ravens carry messages.
Oldest Snake
Member
Cesare Borgia
Banned
Aegon is almost certainly not only a Blackfyre but illyrio's son. It's possible Serra was just another whore in the Free Cities with Valaryian looks, but I'm more apt to believe she was one of the last Blackfyres. Likewise I wouldn't be stunned if Varys is either a Blackfyre or has some other Valaryian heritage. I wonder what color his hair would be if allowed to grow...
The show is going in a different direction but I've believed for years that the Tarlys are the "friends in the Reach" mentioned by the Golden Company, and will side with Aegon. Their betrayal in the show could be a sign of that. Given that Randyll Tarly is leading his force to Storm's End to face Aegon, I think the switch will happen early in Winds. At the very least he'll want to meet with his old friend Connington and see the boy for himself.
The show is going in a different direction but I've believed for years that the Tarlys are the "friends in the Reach" mentioned by the Golden Company, and will side with Aegon. Their betrayal in the show could be a sign of that. Given that Randyll Tarly is leading his force to Storm's End to face Aegon, I think the switch will happen early in Winds. At the very least he'll want to meet with his old friend Connington and see the boy for himself.
elrechazado
Banned
Don't discount the hightowers either, who are extremely rich and powerful and completely absent from the wars so far.
It could be more than just the Tarlys and the story that Loras was hurt is bullshit. Margaery Tyrell may be getting husband number four.
-Pyromaniac-
Member
So what do people think is gonna happen when Jon comes face to face with Drogon when Dany returns. Will they drop an obvious hint that there's a connection? Maybe Drogon will bow or cuddle Jon.
Or you know maybe none of it happens.
Or you know maybe none of it happens.
demosthenes
Member
I think there will be some recognition of some kind.
WaffleTaco
Wants to outlaw technological innovation.
He said he was going to make Osha more prominent after seeing her on the show, and also said he was going to do a twist that was no longer possible on the show.
In the books, Ramsay is known for marrying a "high-born lady" (small town that is pleged to Winterfell) and keeps her in a tower and forces her to eat her fingers to survive...until she eventually dies. Also is suspected of killing Roose Bolton's highborn son. Also he had a Reek before Theon. And yes Pyp and Grenn are still alive, but aren't in the story anymore (they got sent away at the start of A Dance with Dragons).
They have to fight Euron when he attacks Oldtown...and will likely lose.
darkazcura
Member
It's a bit more complicated than that because the first Blackfyre was actually a product of two unmarried Targaryens. Even though its origins is through a legitimized bastard, they are still pretty Targaryen-ish.
aegon was clearly planned though
He was?
Yeah there's enough hints in the previous books to suggest that pro-Targ survivors using a fake heir along with the Blackfyre sword would be a factor.
Didn't you pay attention to all that super important Blackfyre foreshadowing in the first four books? You know like... those moments? With the references? It's definitely not something that came almost out of nowhere with the most blunt foreshadowing in A Dance with Dragons.
Tyrion: My life is ruined and I want to drink myself to death.
Illyrio: Have you ever heard of the BLACKFYRES?
Tyrion: Uh, yeah. Before my time though. Anyways, I killed my fath-
Illyrio: LONG AGO, AEGON THE UNWORTHY...
Illyrio: ...and the male line came to an end.
Tyrion: That's a specific thing to say. Also it's pretty unbelievable that Varys smuggled out a prince who was heavily guarded in the midst of a war into another country. Not to mention your wife looks Valyrian and you've hired an army specifically created to put a Blackfyre on the throne.
Illyrio: God I'm fat.
hydrophilic attack
Member
Aegon's presence has lots of interesting implications for Dany's future arc. He will likely poach a lot of support from Dany in the books (Dorne, The Reach). Furthermore, consider a potential scenario where Dany arrives to a Westeros already united under Aegon, who may be a decent to good ruler, even if technically illegitimate. Does she keep up her entitled shtick and plunge the country back into war when it should be worrying about winter? Does she go hang out with her dreamy nephew in the North to fight off the white walkers? Her decision here may ultimately decide where she ends up on the hero/villain spectrum
hydrophilic attack
Member
Moff
Member
that's how I always felt about it. Aegon needs to die and fast, I just hate the whole plot. if he is endgame that would be super annoying.
How dumb would you have to be to pledge some scrub with 10,000 mercernaries (why 10,000 mercenaries would ever bother with someone without a standing army or gold is another matter of utter stupidity), most of whom are probably going to die shortly or desert. The Lannisters would have to be unparalleled pushovers for the risk to even be somewhat worth it. And none of the potential outcomes are particularly interesting.
Maybe there are some minimal hints of Aegon before ADWD but he still pretty much comes out of nowhere.
p.s. I don't consider information from the book in which this shit-tier character appears to be proof that he was "clearly planned."
This is where I'm at.
p.s. I don't consider information from the book in which this shit-tier character appears to be proof that he was "clearly planned."
This is where I'm at.
chicken_pasta
Banned
I can't wait for tonight
The show has had everything laid out for a couple seasons and is just moving everyone in place for the endgame. There aren't any surprises anymore. It's fun, sure, but there's no longer any intrigue or questions about character motivations or alliances. Its become very straightforward.
I prefer sticking a stick in the wheel.
Well, he took storm's end no? And likely has a fair amount of pledged baratheons? So he does have a castle, a standing army even if it is primarily composed of golden company, and I would imagine there was some gold chilling up in storms end. I think it is an interesting plot, but it may just end up being useless siege plot with tyrells ending up killing aegon.
We obviously have no clue what will happen in the books but I've been hoping against hope we won't get six episodes of humans versus ice zombies in the show. Sounds super boring. Hopefully there's a twist of some kind coming because that sounds like such a boring endgame for the incredible buildup.
He doesn't have just any mercenary group, he has the famed Golden Company who even the Dothraki don't mess with. The reason the Golden Company supports him is simple, they were started by the Blackfyres and are assumed to possess the sword of the same name. Aegon is (most likely) a Blackfyre as Illyrios wife is assumed to be the last Blackfyre.
Aegon was also planned from the very start. For example when Arya is in the dungeons of the Red Keep she overheard Varys and Illyrio talking about him.(most people assumed it was Dany before ADWD though), but it couldn't have been her because he still tried to have her killed later. They were going to use that to have the Dothraki attack Westeros in response and have Aegon swoop in and save them.
Without Aegon, Varys makes no sense.
elrechazado
Banned
Curious where the reference to the dothraki not messing with the golden company is found?
How "late" a stage are we talking here though? There are currently 5 books. That's all there will ever be because he's not releasing another book again, but if we played pretend and assumed he was still able to producing content for this series, the ending is at least 2-3 books away. So if we see the first 3 books as the first half, the second "half" will still be substantially longer than the first half. 4-5 books, each much longer than the first two.
It was mentioned in ADWD I believe, I don't remember where I read it for sure.
Nope. Varys and Illyrio are clearly backing Danaerys/Viserys at that point. They talk about "not a game for two players" but they are specifically referencing the people trying to overthrow Robert.
What is also clear about that meeting is that Varys was involved in killing Jon Arryn but that gets forgotten when it is revealed Lysa killed him on Littlefinger's orders. Varys is also referred to as a wizard and sorcerer.
That was 30 years in the past, why would any of the current mercenaries care about any of that nonsense (especially after the two Blackfyres who fought for control over the company were both killed)? Even if they did, it is awfully convenient there exists a band of mercenaries to support the weakest pretender to such an extent they're willing to throw any personal gain down a gutter temporarily.
I'd say 4000 odd pages in to the story is pretty late. I'm no writer, but I do know what I like reading, and I did not like this introduction. It's a new, supposedly pretty powerful player getting introduced, and I have absolutely no emotional attachment to them. I literally don't care about this character, I care about the other characters I've spent the last 4000 pages reading about, that I have an attachment to.
That's because the characters being introduced are bad, not because they are introduced too "late" into the story.
"It's a new, supposedly pretty powerful player getting introduced" pretty much describes almost all the new POVs from Feast onwards. Characters from the Dornish faction, the Aegon faction characters, the new Ironborn characters like Euron and Victorian.
It's quite clear that GRRM intended for the story to have different major acts. The first 3 books covered the first act of the story. Leaving many characters dead and entire factions fractured. Then he introduces a bunch of new elements in second act to expand the setting and give context to things which were mentioned in passing before. This is really not unusual in narrative techniques.
Again, the reason why people are so bothered is likely because a) the entire Aegon plot is an obvious distraction that is meant to create chaos but is not remotely a credible threat to the dynamics in the long term, b) because GRRM released two bridging novels and will never release another book in the series again, making fans frustrated that he wasted a decade plotting this shit instead of giving people the meat of the story they actually want to read.
They are talking about her, but in a way to set up Aegon. Varys is the one who tries to assasinate Dany, what sense does that make if he is trying to put her on the Iron Throne?
The Artisan
Member
This marriage is the one replaced with Sansa's or this is one that happens before the Winterfell wedding? Either way though I just don't see how Ramsay is unknown on the show and infamous in the books.
The first Blackfyre...but the Blackfyre in question is the wannabe Aegon who is still technically a Blackfyre yeah? Doesn't that make him kinda similar to Gendry?
Oldest Snake
Member
His first marriage happened just after the War of the Five Kings kicked off. Ramsay started gathering soldiers at the Dreadfort and then took Hornwood castle, forcing Donella Hornwood to marry him, who he then locked in a tower and let starve to death.
The second was a fake Arya Stark and arranged by Littlefinger via the Lannisters, which is what was turned into the Sansa story on the show. Ramsay being an unknown element was only there as convenience because they really wanted to tell that story.
No. Okay, I know some people think that Aegon is actually a Blackfyre, but it's likely he's just a nobody. They are trying to sell that he is Aegon, Rhagaer's son. So that's the claim they are using. It's obviously a lie. The Blackfyre that MOST people are talking about with relation to the Aegon plot though, is the Valyrian sword Blackfyre, which was lost beyond the sea long ago. That has a 100% chance of appearing in the novels... or had a 100% chance, if not for the fact that GRRM will never release another novel in the series.
Cesare Borgia
Banned
Nearly every book has mentioned Aegon in some form or fashion, and as far back as 1998 GRRM was refusing to outright say he was dead.
cubicle47b
Member
There's also Dany's vision in the House of the Undying in ACoK (mummer's dragon).
They talk about Drogo not coming to Westeros fast enough and the need to bestirs him. Illyrio wrote to Jorah about the poison plot so he could stop it and really no one knows if that wine was actually poisoned at all.
And a that point they are not trying to put Dany on the Iron Throne, Viserys is still alive.
He's also hanging with unicorns.
Willas gets brought up as a match for Cersei as well, and she reacts with the same amount of disgust as her show reaction to Loras.
For me I loved the new characters introduced in AFFC. Victarion is awesome too bad he didn't get adapted into the TV show.
I was pretty excited when Aegon was introduced, I don't know if GRRM actually has an interesting plan for that part of the story but the possibility of more Targaryens is exciting.
I was pretty excited when Aegon was introduced, I don't know if GRRM actually has an interesting plan for that part of the story but the possibility of more Targaryens is exciting.
ForkNetwork
Banned
Victarion and Asha carry AFFC, Ironborn culture is really interesting
WaffleTaco
Wants to outlaw technological innovation.
Eh, D&D dropping Aegon made the show easier to adapt, but made the story a far worse experience. Same with the Ironborns and the Martells. The show has survived on spectacle for since Season 5, and while they can introduce well-written portions (Winds of Winter, The Door, Hardhome). Having Brienne actually kill Stannis, and Sansa move in with Ramsay was in-theory a clever way of condensing characters. However, their translation from paper to the small screen has not always worked well from a plot/character point of view.
There are still two books, possibly three left. The first three are known as act one, with feast/dance being act 2, and winds/dream being act 3. It would be worse storytelling if they were introduced in Winds of Winter. Feast even states that an uneasy alliance has opened up within the seven kingdoms, clearly putting a pause on most major plots. The plot then gets rolling again with Jon dying, Dany leaving, Cersei walking, Stannis marching, Aegon landing, Jamei and Brienne stonehearting....and everyone going to Meereen.