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2K Games pressured The Sixth Axis to remove 3/10 score from NBA 2K18 review

JABEE

Member

Yesterday afternoon, we found ourselves embroiled in a minor controversy surrounding one of our reviews, as I decided to adjust our NBA 2K18 review after it had been posted and temporarily remove the score, pending a statement from 2K about our complaints.

In our review, Aran raised the issue of the rate at which you can earn the game's Virtual Currency from play, how pervasive VC is through the game, and how this pushes you towards the microtransactions in a manner that seriously impacts the game.

Sadly, 2K have not been able to issue us a statement in a timely fashion and so we have now returned the 3/10 score to the bottom of our review, 24 hours after the review was originally posted.

So in retrospect, did I make a mistake in altering our published review? Possibly. Were there good reasons to change the review? Definitely. Most importantly, was this from undue publisher pressure? No.

The conclusion that was originally posted read, ”If you're a series fan you may enjoy what you see, and the score below doesn't indicate the quality of the core basketball game, but rather protests how utterly invasive the microtransactions have now become." To categorise our review and its score as a protest vote against 2K was wrong on a number of levels, and it was something I believed I had removed when editing. Evidently I didn't or didn't realise that my edits had not been submitted properly while travelling. Either way, it was largely for this reason that 2K's PR team got in touch after the review was published.

We give plenty of leeway to our reviewers, so if they reason their position well enough and it matches the score, then it will stand as is. In this case, Aran argued well enough for my liking that the balance between microtransaction and what you earn in game was dragging down the potential enjoyment for players. Whether entries have receive a 6/10 or a 9/10 in the past, it's been a consistent point that he's addressed in NBA 2K reviews for the last half decade, and it's exactly this point that I relayed to 2K when they contacted me.

Yes, they asked us to reconsider the score or shift to a ”review in progress", but I can't state strongly enough that there was no ”pressure" or threat of blacklisting made or even implied. If this were the case, the review would not be online, even without a score. However, the word ”protest" was still misplaced and needed to be removed, and it was while doing this that the olive branch of a statement surrounding planned changes and adjustments to NBA 2K18 was made. So I made the call to change the score to pending at the same time, get on my flight and hope for something remarkable when I landed.

While 2K are listening and reacting – they lowered the pricing of in game haircuts on Tuesday, for example – they still can't offer us specific information on or off the record about changes that are incoming. Hopefully they will be revealed soon, because as Aran wrote and as many people across Reddit, Twitter and NeoGAF agree that the demands of virtual currency and the push towards microtransactions in NBA 2K18 are currently too much.

In light of this, and as was always the most likely outcome, the 3/10 score has been restored to our review and the wording remains intact aside from the changes to the conclusion. We'll look to return to NBA 2K18 down the line to see if and how Visual Concept and 2K rebalance the currency and progression systems and we expect and hope to see significant improvements in this area. Needless to say, they're now very aware that players aren't happy, which is perhaps the best thing to come from all of this.

This hasn't been the most pleasant episode for anyone involved. It's nice to be the top story on Reddit and NeoGAF, but not for this and not with the maelstrom of speculation that has come with it. With hindsight, a number of things should have been done differently, and for that I sincerely apologise. We'll learn from these mistakes and do better in future.

The fact that 2K contacts the editor. The Editor makes the writer argue his review again. The review score is removed until 2K has one more crack at winning the argument.

I don't understand how you can argue the score wasn't temporarily removed due to pressure from the publisher. The content of the review was changed by the addition of the Editor's Note.
 

thumb

Banned
Do you agree with your editor that there was no pressure, even though even reaching out to the site to express that they didn't like the score is in itself pressure? There doesn't have to be a threat for it to count, IMO. They clearly approached the site with the objective of raising or removing the score and the site complied, even if for a little bit. It's even a bit disappointing the site complied without any need for threats :p You agree this is worrying, right? And that the paragraph you quoted thus makes no sense?

I agree with the above. It's fine to say that 2K did not communicate in a hostile manner and did not offer an explicit ultimatum. But they still worked to remove a score they didn't like. That's pressure.

Anyhow, I hope this is learning experience for the site.
 

Kusagari

Member
That statement by TSA is terrible and honestly makes me not trust their reviews; even if they did reinstate the 3/10 score.
 
Shame on the editor of Sixth Axis. What is the problem with a "protest score"?

This is why Angry Joe is the best reviewer out there... if he want to give a 6/10 to an Activision game, he'll do it no matter what.

This "mainstream videogames journalism" sucks...
 

JABEE

Member
Also, 2K didn't catch a factual error. They caught an editorial error that was already published and approved by the editor.

To remove the "protest" comment from the review and to do so after it was suggested by the publisher is a clear example of the publisher providing pressure. It is under-cutting the reviewer and siding with the publisher once the review is published.

It would be one thing to correct a factual error like frame rate or the lack of a feature or mode, but to change the content of an already published review due to a publisher feedback is messed up.

Edit:

Yes, they asked us to reconsider the score or shift to a ”review in progress", but I can't state strongly enough that there was no ”pressure" or threat of blacklisting made or even implied. If this were the case, the review would not be online, even without a score.

And holy shit, I just reread the line.

They are saying if they threatened a blacklist or applied "pressure" they would have removed the review completely.

What the Hell?
 

dreamfall

Member
That statement is pretty shitty to be honest. I don't understand why you force your writer to change their score if you know that writer has been reviewing the franchise for years - shouldn't you advocate for the reviewer? This wasn't done with some malicious intent to blast the game without factual evidence of the MT payout model. That's what's strangest to me.
 
I think people are reading more into pressure than the dude meant. I think what they meant was they were not threatened with repurcussions if they didn't change their review. Not that the PR guy didn't try to get them to alter their score. Obviously he did. But the PR dude certainly knows if it gets out that they blacklisted a site for a bad review that's gonna hurt them. And TSA know that redoing the review craters reputation.

At least that's how it reads to me.

I think this is the best reading of it. I know there was no threat of blacklist now and I can't speak directly for the editor's thought process. We've worked together for six years and this is the first incident I can recall where he made a bad judgement call. He's admitted it was a bad judgement call as well.

The main contention was I believe the use of the word protest in the review, which caught 2K's attention. Their PR contacted our editor to clarify, editor went to remove protest, miscommunication happened, and we ended up here.

Did I agree with the decision? No. Has that been made clear? Yes. Will this affect my working relationship with him? Nope. Guy made a stupid mistake in an attempt to sort an issue. He has realised it, we've spoken in private, and we'll move on.

What do I hope though? I hope that this episode shows other reviewers that they can be more critical of certain practices.
 
How is paying money for a random chance of acquiring an item not gambling? It's the exact same as a raffle, which is legally considered gambling. Do you have any argument beyond repeating the same thing over and over hoping that it magically becomes true?
Because it's literally not. In gambling you pit your money against the threat of loss. You always win with loot boxes, always. Therefore it's not gambling. It's basically the same as trading card packs or other lucky dips. They aren't gambling cause you're never left out of money, whether you're happy with the results or not.

1425_3.jpg


Call me up again when your little brother spends $30 in one sitting trying to get a legendary card in Clash Royale.
Sorry to hear. I spent a ton of money trying to get a shiny Charizard when I was kid. Call me when you learn what gambling is and is not.
 
In that case the editor is seriously misreading what was wrong about what he did, and totally not learning anything from this.

I think the reviewer dude here who has been talking to us has been super cool and really done nothing wrong. I think that the editor made the mistake of pulling the review thinking adding the editors note (which I genuinely believe he forgot to remove before publishing) after the fact would fix things with 2K and not be a big deal.

Obviously my there is just a transparency issue here where no matter how much you say you werent influenced by 2K and its a misunderstanding seeds of doubt are sewn. How do you fix that? I dunno, don't make that mistake really as you are the editor. But as far as 2K is concerned they should fuck off and not even be contacting sites over reviews.

TSA will have to work hard to repair trust but personally I dont see any real ill will given the transparency we have gotten. I just think they shouldn't have bothered adjusting anything in the text or pulling the review. He is the editor, just add a note independent of the review.
 
Added an opinion on the TSA site but they don't publish it (censorship?)...

"Shame on YOU. What's the problem with a "protest score" really? If a reviewer feel that a game is making something damaging for the consumer in the long term and for the franchise in the short one, then he has the right to put whatever the score he want and I would respect it a lot. But this bullshit decision of "pending" the score because 2K called to you? You're a disgrace as an editor. This is the reason why gamers follow reviewers on YouTube more and more... because some oh them are not afraid of telling what they think and aren't afraid of losing some privileges".
 
Sorry about that. I was clicking the link in the OP.

No worries. Mistakes happen. I want to also state that the review itself was never removed from the site at any time since it was published. The change to pending absolutely was a stupid mistake to make and TSA will hold its hands up for that.

As said by others myself and the rest of the team at TSA have a lot of work to do in terms of rebuilding trust with members of the gaming public.
 
How is paying money for a random chance of acquiring an item not gambling? It's the exact same as a raffle, which is legally considered gambling. Do you have any argument beyond repeating the same thing over and over hoping that it magically becomes true?
Because with gambling you can end up with nothing at the end for the money you put in. In a raffle you put in money and have a chance to win from a group of prizes. But there is also a chance that you will put that money in and get absolutely nothing.

This doesn't happen with microtransactions. You are paying for a random element, but that's not the same as gambling because at the very least, you're guaranteed a product for the money you spent. It may not be the item you were hoping for, but you are still exchanging money for the guarantee that you'll receive goods.

By your logic Magic trading card packs or blind boxes are gambling.
 
I think this is the best reading of it. I know there was no threat of blacklist now and I can't speak directly for the editor's thought process. We've worked together for six years and this is the first incident I can recall where he made a bad judgement call. He's admitted it was a bad judgement call as well.

The main contention was I believe the use of the word protest in the review, which caught 2K's attention. Their PR contacted our editor to clarify, editor went to remove protest, miscommunication happened, and we ended up here.

Did I agree with the decision? No. Has that been made clear? Yes. Will this affect my working relationship with him? Nope. Guy made a stupid mistake in an attempt to sort an issue. He has realised it, we've spoken in private, and we'll move on.

What do I hope though? I hope that this episode shows other reviewers that they can be more critical of certain practices.

I feel ya man. Mistakes made. It happens. I don't really think this is a big deal personally. All the relevant information has been disclosed to us. I don't personally think less of the site. Obviously there simply has to be better communication between reviewer and editor when issues come up. Just have a policy in place. Live and learn

Thanks for clearing everything up though. You didn't have to.
 

Majukun

Member
they should have given it a 0
in fact every reviewer should give a 0 to any full price retail game that has microtransactiosn...it's absurd that people accept this kind of shit..but the battle is probably already lost, good job.
 
I don't think The Sixth Axis comes out of this smelling like roses because they dropped the review in the first place, but kudos to them for keeping their score and letting the writer's words stand.

Hopefully this is a lesson learned, I'll still be visiting the site.
TSA do great work in general.
 

dose

Member
Because it's literally not. In gambling you pit your money against the threat of loss. You always win with loot boxes, always. Therefore it's not gambling. It's basically the same as trading card packs or other lucky dips. They aren't gambling cause you're never left out of money, whether you're happy with the results or not.
I think you need read a dictionary.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gamble
Definition of gamble
gambled; gambling play \ˈgam-b(ə-)liŋ\
intransitive verb
1 a :to play a game for money or property
b :to bet on an uncertain outcome
It is gambling. Simple as, despite how much you protest about it on here.

Ontopic - the fact that 2K Games 'asked to reconsider the score or shift to a ”review in progress" is pressure and they should be called out on it. In other words,'we don't like the score, you should change it.' How does that work exactly?
 

DrDamn

Member
OléGunner;249654558 said:
I don't think The Sixth Axis comes out of this smelling like roses because they dropped the review in the first place, but kudos to them for keeping their score and letting the writer's words stand.

Hopefully this is a lesson learned, I'll still be visiting the site.
TSA do great work in general.

They did change the wording of the review - but only to what the editor thought they already had done. The key to all of this is the "protest" word. That implies it was marked down as an example rather than necessarily based on it's own worth. I.e. as a warning to other game. That can also work both ways - a potential buy mark read it and think the score is not indicative of the game but is of the practices of the industry in general. So I think it's in the interests of all that this is properly clarified by the re-word. The score stands and it's what the reviewer felt the game deserved based on it's own qualities.
 

s_mirage

Member
And holy shit, I just reread the line.

They are saying if they threatened a blacklist or applied "pressure" they would have removed the review completely.

What the Hell?

They've edited it now. It now says:

If this were the case, the demand would have been for the review to be removed entirely, which we would not have done.
 

DrDamn

Member
It is gambling. Simple as, despite how much you protest about it on here.

It would depend on whether you determine that the person is paying or betting though wouldn't it? They aren't risking a stake they are paying for something that may or may not contain what they really wanted. Is that a bet? It's certainly debatable but I also think these mechanisms exploit the same characteristics as gambling, so there is definitely a link to the two practices.
 
I hope this forces 2k to take a look at how messed up VC has been going back to 2k14. It's a shame more reviewers haven't talked about this in the past games. Part of me feels like that's because sports games aren't held to the same standard as other genres because a lot of people working in gaming outlets don't care about sports.

Just think about how much attention Shadow of War got for micro transactions. The amount of topics on podcasts and videos done on that. It will sell a 1/10 the amount of 2k18 and 2k18 will get about 1/100 the attention.
 

watdaeff4

Member
I think you need read a dictionary.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gamble

It is gambling. Simple as, despite how much you protest about it on here.

What matters is the legal definition (and precedence that defines) of gambling. I would imagine that these companies could easily compare these lootboxes to baseball cards and Pokemon cards which are perfectly legal and not considered gambling.

I'm not condoning the practice, but just stating how I see that no one has any legal grounds to act like it's predatory gambling.
 

Chris1

Member
I think you need read a dictionary.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gamble

It is gambling. Simple as, despite how much you protest about it on here.
and what exactly are they betting on? Nothing, they are buying a pack of cards or whatever (not sure how it works in NBA). There is no "bet" involved they are simply purchasing an item.

It's not gambling because there is no way to lose, technically anyway. I don't see it that way but that's how it is. Jagex even admitted that's their loophole around microtransactions and gambling for kids in the past.
 

Briarios

Member
What matters is the legal definition (and precedence that defines) of gambling. I would imagine that these companies could easily compare these lootboxes to baseball cards and Pokemon cards which are perfectly legal and not considered gambling.

I'm not condoning the practice, but just stating how I see that no one has any legal grounds to act like it's predatory gambling.

The difference is that you know the odds of baseball cards and the like -- you don't know the odds of loot boxes, hence the gambling. This was the whole problem in China, remember? And, to make legal grounds, all it takes is one annoyed senator to create some legislation.
 
and what exactly are they betting on? Nothing, they are buying a pack of cards or whatever (not sure how it works in NBA). There is no "bet" involved they are simply purchasing an item.

It's not gambling because there is no way to lose, technically anyway. I don't see it that way but that's how it is. Jagex even admitted that's their loophole around microtransactions and gambling for kids in the past.

This definition of gambling seems extremely narrow.

Let's say I create some "game" or something where a man gives me $200 and then I flip a coin. If the coin lands on heads, he gets a Popsicle. If the coin lands on tails, he gets a PS4.

Is there a chance the man could lose in this game?
 

Zemm

Member
Not a good look for Sixth Axis.

I disagree, they've handled this well whilst acknowledging they were a little naive when dealing with the huge PR machine of a big publisher in the industry. I'm sure they've learned for the next time this happens whilst also not compromising on their morals here.
 
I found out my coworker's kid got NBA 2k18 for 150 bucks on this game. All of it for virtual currency and fantasy packs and shit. That's more than twice the price of the game. That's fucking incredible how companies are able to get away with this.
 
I disagree, they've handled this well whilst acknowledging they were a little naive when dealing with the huge PR machine of a big publisher in the industry. I'm sure they've learned for the next time this happens whilst also not compromising on their morals here.

Agreed

They've also shown more willingness to actually put out statements and have open dialogue on things. What has 2k said about anything?
 
So they gave 2K18 a 3/10 because of micro transactions and noted that the actual game itself was good. That's not a exact quote from the OP but my take from it. I didn't know about this site before today and I'm now glad I didn't. I don't like micro transactions at all but when you're reviewing a game and you score it low because of it then mention in the same breath that the actual game is good I can't bring myself to respect what you have to say on the matter.
 

theWB27

Member
So they gave 2K18 a 3/10 because of micro transactions and noted that the actual game itself was good. That's not a exact quote from the OP but my take from it. I didn't know about this site before today and I'm now glad I didn't. I don't like micro transactions at all but when you're reviewing a game and you score it low because of it then mention in the same breath that the actual game is good I can't bring myself to respect what you have to say in the matter.

Entitled to your opinion...but if someone's enjoyment of a game is severely hampered because of certain mechanics implemented then it can ranked lower. There is more to 2K than just the gameplay and those extra mechanics are allowed to drag down what is otherwise an enjoyable experience. Especially if your main mode of play is the one that said mechanic hampers the most.
 
This reminds me primarily of when Ubisoft blacklisted Ziff Davis for their Assassin’s Creed review, where one of the reviewers gave the game a 5.5.

What’s crazy about these review controversies is that in retrospect, they’re usually right. Few people would recommend the first AC game, and a good number might agree with that score, even AC fans.

I still think it’s insane how publishers will go to such lengths to control the narrative of their title. When they threaten these publications, it’s insulting to me - it’s as if they’re saying, “if we can’t control the press about this game, we don’t want you hearing about it.” That’s just scummy behavior.

I don’t think the score on any review is remotely important, so I’m not overly annoyed by TSA taking that down. If the text of the review still lays down the facts, and paints a negative picture in an informative way, then that’s fine by me. Scores have been and always will be a complete distraction and largely a waste of time.
 
So they gave 2K18 a 3/10 because of micro transactions and noted that the actual game itself was good. That's not a exact quote from the OP but my take from it. I didn't know about this site before today and I'm now glad I didn't. I don't like micro transactions at all but when you're reviewing a game and you score it low because of it then mention in the same breath that the actual game is good I can't bring myself to respect what you have to say in the matter.

The mechanics can be good while at the same time being a bad game due to other factors, imo.

Like, maybe the MyPlayer mode is really good in theory, but it's bad because microtransactions or forced grinding make it very much a chore to play the game. There are literally people who don't want their player to become a starter because they earn less VC, then if they come off the bench.
 

jschreier

Member
It's so bizarre and fascinating that, thanks to Metacritic, a hobbyist site run by volunteers can have enough power to freak out a multi-billion-dollar publisher. What a world!
 
It's so bizarre and fascinating that, thanks to Metacritic, a hobbyist site run by volunteers can have enough power to freak out a multi-billion-dollar publisher. What a world!

If only some of the other sites would do the same (was happy to see the Kotaku article on this).
 

guybrushfreeman

Unconfirmed Member
It's so bizarre and fascinating that, thanks to Metacritic, a hobbyist site run by volunteers can have enough power to freak out a multi-billion-dollar publisher. What a world!

From your side Jason, is this something that’s very common and we’re just hearing about it this time? Or, has 2K acted out of the norm here trying to pressure them into changing the score?
 
Entitled to your opinion...but if someone's enjoyment of a game is severely hampered because of certain mechanics implemented then it can ranked lower. There is more to 2K than just the gameplay and those extra mechanics are allowed to drag down what is otherwise an enjoyable experience. Especially if your main mode of play is the one that said mechanic hampers the most.

The mechanics can be good while at the same time being a bad game due to other factors, imo.

Like, maybe the MyPlayer mode is really good in theory, but it's bad because microtransactions or forced grinding make it very much a chore to play the game. There are literally people who don't want their player to become a starter because they earn less VC, then if they come off the bench.

Those are extremely fair and valid points that I honestly can't bring a sound argument against. I guess my problem has been with gaming media in general these past few years. Reviews I feel have more power over the masses then it should but that's a topic for another day.
 
You don't remove a score while you reconsider it like this. You do that if there were actual faults in the review.

Then again, this is a website run by people on the side. I can't blame them for this. It's actually pretty interesting that a company like 2K is so worried about a bad score they do this.
 

watdaeff4

Member
That's the biggest argument I've read, and the counter argument is that in videogames case, there is not a limitation on the physical existance of a good, which means people are paying for artificial probabilities, putting the odds on the supplier side. Not to mention the constant "reminding" some of these games do, acting as a psychological luring action closer to the Casino model.

I do think it's a court decision to be had. But damn, it's getting to our kids, and that pisses me off.

I don't disagree with the psychological luring aspects. It absolutely preys on the gambling instinct, but as someone who used to collect baseball and football cards, the sports cards industry started to do that as well with all the "autograph" cards, etc.

I also understand your point regarding the odds on the supplier side, but I'm not for sure if that would hold up, as they can still say they provide the "loot".....it just may not be that good loot you were hoping for.

The difference is that you know the odds of baseball cards and the like -- you don't know the odds of loot boxes, hence the gambling. This was the whole problem in China, remember? And, to make legal grounds, all it takes is one annoyed senator to create some legislation.
Knowing (or not knowing) the odds has no bearing on the legal definition of gambling as far as I'm aware. (I don't know the problem in China - but good luck whatever it was getting that to be the precedence in a US Court assuming that is where you are from.)

If I were you, I would reach out to your House Representative over a Senator if that's the action you think is necessary - a Senator in a 6 year term will more likely blow this off unless they think they can get really big headlines with a PR win.
So they gave 2K18 a 3/10 because of micro transactions and noted that the actual game itself was good. That's not a exact quote from the OP but my take from it. I didn't know about this site before today and I'm now glad I didn't. I don't like micro transactions at all but when you're reviewing a game and you score it low because of it then mention in the same breath that the actual game is good I can't bring myself to respect what you have to say on the matter.
You might want to read some of the review. Yes, they mention the core gameplay is good, but so many of the gameplay modes are hampered/broken/etc by the VC aspect.

They aren't wrong.

It's not the same as a raffle. Not everybody gets something in a raffle. In this you get something even if it's not something you want. In my opinion it's more akin to opening packs of baseball cards to find a rare one.
Not a popular thought on here, but legally, this is pretty much it.
 
How is paying money for a random chance of acquiring an item not gambling? It's the exact same as a raffle, which is legally considered gambling. Do you have any argument beyond repeating the same thing over and over hoping that it magically becomes true?

It's not the same as a raffle. Not everybody gets something in a raffle. In this you get something even if it's not something you want. In my opinion it's more akin to opening packs of baseball cards to find a rare one.
 

jacobeid

Banned
It's so bizarre and fascinating that, thanks to Metacritic, a hobbyist site run by volunteers can have enough power to freak out a multi-billion-dollar publisher. What a world!

This is all that I can think about during all of this. It's just so....strange.
 

hawk2025

Member
Because it's literally not. In gambling you pit your money against the threat of loss. You always win with loot boxes, always. Therefore it's not gambling. It's basically the same as trading card packs or other lucky dips. They aren't gambling cause you're never left out of money, whether you're happy with the results or not.


Sorry to hear. I spent a ton of money trying to get a shiny Charizard when I was kid. Call me when you learn what gambling is and is not.

So if a casino adds in a loyalty program where you get at least 1 cent for each gamble, it's no longer gambling?

If only casinos had thought of this!
 
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