Prophet Steve
Member
Haven't played a lot of Fallout 3, but that means boundaries of levels depending on the area right? Can be content with that.
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TESV: Skyrim Game Informer info
- Thread starter Dennis
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gstaff said:
That's a relief.
Hoping things feel more hand crafted and thoughtfully placed this time around as far as dungeons go; that was one of the biggest improvements from Daggerfall to Morrowind (though I missed getting lost in the sprawling dungeons).
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Everything sounds good except for level scaling. no classes, less skills and removal of mysticism.
- Level scaling - Have always, and will always hate this feature. You will never convince me it's anything but a horrific idea brought on by marketers who think players are fucking idiots. And then who decided to pander to those idiots. EDIT: Well, hey. At least that FO3 thing is a step up from vanilla Oblivion. No hard feelings about the marketing thing gstaff. We're in the same line of work. :lol
- No classes - The fuck? I mean, if you tag skills the same way, it's a cosmetic change, but come on. Why, in an RPG, are you disallowing for ROLE PLAYING. Picking a class is as basic as picking a race, or "build' in ES games - and most RPGs.
- Less skills - Again, could work if they combine say, Athletics and Acrobatics. Could be fucking horrible if they just strip out skills "cause our focus group didn't pick them." Again, open world RPG. Why expect that everybody is going to play the same way?
- Removal of mysticism - Same as above. They're stripping skills and combining others. Maybe it's a mountain out of a molehill, but I'd love to see an RPG developer add more role playing options, rather than less. And I swear to god, if they try to sell us skills or abilities as DLC, I will personally kill the internet. The whole thing. Dead.
....but. I am the biggest ES fan on this board. I will wait and see. I have faith.
- Level scaling - Have always, and will always hate this feature. You will never convince me it's anything but a horrific idea brought on by marketers who think players are fucking idiots. And then who decided to pander to those idiots. EDIT: Well, hey. At least that FO3 thing is a step up from vanilla Oblivion. No hard feelings about the marketing thing gstaff. We're in the same line of work. :lol
- No classes - The fuck? I mean, if you tag skills the same way, it's a cosmetic change, but come on. Why, in an RPG, are you disallowing for ROLE PLAYING. Picking a class is as basic as picking a race, or "build' in ES games - and most RPGs.
- Less skills - Again, could work if they combine say, Athletics and Acrobatics. Could be fucking horrible if they just strip out skills "cause our focus group didn't pick them." Again, open world RPG. Why expect that everybody is going to play the same way?
- Removal of mysticism - Same as above. They're stripping skills and combining others. Maybe it's a mountain out of a molehill, but I'd love to see an RPG developer add more role playing options, rather than less. And I swear to god, if they try to sell us skills or abilities as DLC, I will personally kill the internet. The whole thing. Dead.
....but. I am the biggest ES fan on this board. I will wait and see. I have faith.
Are they just porting over SPECIAL to the TES games? That's kind of what it sounds like. I'm totally fine with that so long as they keep traits this time. :lol
Also, please make the main quest line fun. I'm not really interested in role playing a teddy bear hoarding panty thief in my open world RPGs.
Also, please make the main quest line fun. I'm not really interested in role playing a teddy bear hoarding panty thief in my open world RPGs.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
EviLore said:
Which sounds fantastic.
Minsc
Gold Member
WanderingWind said:
Even if it's a very finite range, and logical? Rats 1-3, Liches 20-25, not Rats & Liches 1-60 (or whatever).
To me having somewhat random stats across identical enemies helps immersion a little. If your enemies always have exactly the same health and do exactly the same damage, well it's slightly more boring. I like a little variation. Besides, why should you be the only thing in the entire world that gets stronger?
I definitely hate wild scaling (even the kind in DA I'm not terribly fond of, but it works ok for such a fake open-world game), but I think it adds a bit when heavily restricted in real open world games.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Minsc said:Even if it's a very finite range, and logical? Rats 1-3, Liches 20-25, not Rats & Liches 1-60 (or whatever).
To me having somewhat random stats across identical enemies helps immersion a little. If your enemies always have exactly the same health and do exactly the same damage, well it's slightly more boring. I like a little variation. Besides, why should you be the only thing in the entire world that gets stronger?
Like I said. You'll never convince me. It's not happening, don't even try. To me, it's the antithesis of RPG game play. I can handle the way they're setting it up though. I just strongly prefer the Morrowind/Gothic1+2/damn near every RPG before Oblivion method.
Pretty late to this party, but sounds like overall it will be big improvement. It does't sound like everything I would want, but they have taken some really positive steps. Kind of a bummer of the usual complaints level scaling, losing skills, etc. I love the idea of crafting stuff.
I expect to be in the minority on this board for liking the elimination of early game class choosing.
In every WRPG I've played, I've never felt comfortable deciding what skills I want to use after only one hour (or zero hours) of playtime.
How do I know if the game world places an importance on lockpicking? or stealth? or is it balanced more towards brute strength?
is that even how i want to play? I just ran around in a dungeon for 20 minutes fighting the same two enemies. How do I know if it'll be more fun (or more useful) to conjure the dead or shoot fire from my hands for the next 40 hours?
Any attempt a developer makes to reduce those game defining decisions from the early levels and let me figure out the way I want to play by actually playing is OK by me. Skyrim seems to do this by focusing on many perks adding up for every level plus the skills increasing via use.
the perk system, in particular, could be very well suited to how I want to evolve a character.
In every WRPG I've played, I've never felt comfortable deciding what skills I want to use after only one hour (or zero hours) of playtime.
How do I know if the game world places an importance on lockpicking? or stealth? or is it balanced more towards brute strength?
is that even how i want to play? I just ran around in a dungeon for 20 minutes fighting the same two enemies. How do I know if it'll be more fun (or more useful) to conjure the dead or shoot fire from my hands for the next 40 hours?
Any attempt a developer makes to reduce those game defining decisions from the early levels and let me figure out the way I want to play by actually playing is OK by me. Skyrim seems to do this by focusing on many perks adding up for every level plus the skills increasing via use.
the perk system, in particular, could be very well suited to how I want to evolve a character.
Grimm Fandango
Member
gstaff said:
Excellent.
Evolved1
make sure the pudding isn't too soggy but that just ruins everything
My faith in Bethesda is beyond frazzled... especially with the news of level scaling lite... but there might be some hope (as far as my own enjoyment is concerned) for this game if they can avoid loot scaling... or at least hide it somehow.
I'll take illusion over the Oblivion system and I will not complain I swear to christ... :lol
I'm in agreement here... well said. We'll have to see how it works out. On paper, it doesn't offend the senses.
I'll take illusion over the Oblivion system and I will not complain I swear to christ... :lol
LCfiner said:
I'm in agreement here... well said. We'll have to see how it works out. On paper, it doesn't offend the senses.
RebornYeti
Member
Level Scaling like Fallout's?
Day -1.
Day -1.
ZombieSupaStar
Member
DennisK4 said:
god damn it....
I will wait to a more detailed explanation is given before I play the "will wait for mods to fix it" Bethesda card. But I want more detail on how this works will it be general RANGES for scaling based on area with hard caps to monster levels (Fallout 3), which is fine. Or will it be everyone, their armor, their dungeon, their mother, their dog and the loot in any chest in said dungeon scaling to your level, like Oblivion which is bad.
disappeared said:
And you don't think there's an issue with that? It's good to hear, at least, that Skyrim won't be following Oblivion's method of level scaling.
Here's what the problem with the type of level scaling in Oblivion was, and why it helped ruin the game: it didn't just destroy any sense of character progression, but also defeated the purpose of exploration. It was even worse with vanilla Oblivion's pretty but dull, lifeless world. There was almost no use in wandering around because there was nothing cool to see, and nothing cool to fight. The feel that you're on some adventure was sorely missing.
There's a nice sense of natural accomplishment in RPG gaming when, for example, you come back to defeat some tough monster that you had previously been powerless against, and it doesn't require the addition of a silly sound effect and some points. It simply requires not holding the player's hand, and instead leaving them to brave the large, mysterious world by themselves, independently discovering things on the way. That's what adventure and exploration is all about, after all.
Are you suggesting something like a dungeon that would feature rats at lvl 2, but a lich at lvl 20 versus just lvl 20 rats?Minsc said:Even if it's a very finite range, and logical? Rats 1-3, Liches 20-25, not Rats & Liches 1-60 (or whatever).
To me having somewhat random stats across identical enemies helps immersion a little. If your enemies always have exactly the same health and do exactly the same damage, well it's slightly more boring. I like a little variation. Besides, why should you be the only thing in the entire world that gets stronger?
I definitely hate wild scaling (even the kind in DA I'm not terribly fond of, but it works ok for such a fake open-world game), but I think it adds a bit when heavily restricted in real open world games.
GarthVaderUK
Banned
Noice.
SirPenguin
Member
I can't say I noticed the scaling in FO3 too much. Which I think means it was great. I was seeing bandits and super mutants from pretty much beginning to end, which is what I wanted.
All the info sounds excellent. I know people might be upset at 18 skills (6 per specialization DOES sound incredibly low), but I'm all for the other changes made to leveling/classes. The WORST part of TES games is how you have to wrestle with the stupid leveling system.
Like, somehow it was more advantageous to make skills you use a lot Misc. because you can gain more attributes this way. And god forbid you do too much in Oblivion, lest you level too quickly. Oh! But don't level too slowly, as quest items are also based on level.
Bah. This is just making me realize how crazy the scaling system is. Guess I gotta trust Grats Nick Fuck Nick on this one. Speaking of which, I'm glad someone that has a knowledge of forums like GAF (/the rest of the internet) got a community manager position. I feel like his comments re: the engine and the scaling system were purposefully to stem the negative hate train that inevitably crops up around these issues. Most CMs tend to turn a blind eye to those things.
All the info sounds excellent. I know people might be upset at 18 skills (6 per specialization DOES sound incredibly low), but I'm all for the other changes made to leveling/classes. The WORST part of TES games is how you have to wrestle with the stupid leveling system.
Like, somehow it was more advantageous to make skills you use a lot Misc. because you can gain more attributes this way. And god forbid you do too much in Oblivion, lest you level too quickly. Oh! But don't level too slowly, as quest items are also based on level.
Bah. This is just making me realize how crazy the scaling system is. Guess I gotta trust Grats Nick Fuck Nick on this one. Speaking of which, I'm glad someone that has a knowledge of forums like GAF (/the rest of the internet) got a community manager position. I feel like his comments re: the engine and the scaling system were purposefully to stem the negative hate train that inevitably crops up around these issues. Most CMs tend to turn a blind eye to those things.
This is why level scaling is pretty awful to me in all situations. You look at a super mutant and your thought process should be "run" if you are a low level. Instead you have a shot at killing it just because it has a level cap that has been scaled to your level. The world should be menacing at low levels and only the most exotic and powerful foes should give you pause at higher levels.SirPenguin said:
ZombieSupaStar
Member
I dont mind Fallout 3s leveling system is a comprise from A) The world is your level, nothing you do matters like in Oblivion. or B) All these areas you cant go into right now or you will get 1 shotted come back at level 15 (like an mmo).
What I want from Skyrim leveling is:
-For meager thieves NOT to go from scraps to glass armor once I hit *insert level*, have more difficult thieves appear, but keep a few losers to slap around, around.
-For there to be a level 5 imp when im level 40 that I can 1 shot punt across the room, that was a hard fight at level 2
-For there to be dungeons I wander into too early and get my face punched off by an undead minotaur
-For the same said dungeon to have some nice loot in the final chest If I am able to find a way to get it, not just (SET loot.level=player.level ON open.chest).
Fallout 3 had it the closest to what I want. New Vegas was good also, aside from those damn cazadors that even deathclaws have nightmares over. :lol
they tried to fix that a bit with Super Mutant ranks, but it didnt really work, They should have found a better enemy to make the mindless cannon fodder and left super mutants to be more like Deathclaws, in the "oh shit" department, same with the enclave.
What I want from Skyrim leveling is:
-For meager thieves NOT to go from scraps to glass armor once I hit *insert level*, have more difficult thieves appear, but keep a few losers to slap around, around.
-For there to be a level 5 imp when im level 40 that I can 1 shot punt across the room, that was a hard fight at level 2
-For there to be dungeons I wander into too early and get my face punched off by an undead minotaur
-For the same said dungeon to have some nice loot in the final chest If I am able to find a way to get it, not just (SET loot.level=player.level ON open.chest).
Fallout 3 had it the closest to what I want. New Vegas was good also, aside from those damn cazadors that even deathclaws have nightmares over. :lol
Ceebs said:
they tried to fix that a bit with Super Mutant ranks, but it didnt really work, They should have found a better enemy to make the mindless cannon fodder and left super mutants to be more like Deathclaws, in the "oh shit" department, same with the enclave.
Synth_floyd
Banned
Less skills? Yay. They should get rid of speech craft. It was useless. And the skill that you get by running when running just means pushing your analog stick all the way which you do all the time. And 5 schools of magic vs. 6 is no problem.
More skills is good but more pointless skills = bad
And totally glad they're redoing the level up system. HATED the old one. Had to grind a bunch of random skills before a level up to get those annoying +5 bonuses to my stats.
More skills is good but more pointless skills = bad
And totally glad they're redoing the level up system. HATED the old one. Had to grind a bunch of random skills before a level up to get those annoying +5 bonuses to my stats.
Minsc
Gold Member
Ceebs said:
Oh, I see how I might be getting confused. I don't like the idea of the actual types of enemies changing based on your level, just to some extent the level of those enemies changing.
I'd want the dungeon with the lvl 20 lich to still have a lvl 20 lich when you're level 2, but it'd be fine if it the lich's power scaled to a small extent over time.
Maybe best would be if it didn't scale though, the more I think about it. Just leave some randomness in though, and let the creatures be randomly generated in a finite level range when entering the area that doesn't scale or depend on your level.
Evolved1
make sure the pudding isn't too soggy but that just ruins everything
SirPenguin said:
Fallout really gives no indication how they might scale loot, if at all. There wasn't really that much stuff in FO... at least not like the amount of armor & weapons in a TES game.
So even if the game follows the Fallout formula for leveling and enemies... still no idea if they're repeating what Oblivion did with loot.
This is something that I have to know. I swear I can look past nearly everything else. But loot scaling destroys my thief characters that I love to play in TES games. (until Oblivion)
ZombieSupaStar
Member
Minsc said:
Im pretty sure Fallout 3 had something like that, each area had a range to spawn enemies in like DC ruins sector 9 or whatever has a range of 10-15 and if your level 5 you'll be fighting level 10 enemies, if your level 12 you'll be fighting like 13 enemies, and if your level 30 you'd still only fight level 15 enemies.
But looking back at my vanilla playthroughs, I cant think of any area that I walked into in my low levels that was very very very obviously level 10+ enemies.
SirPenguin
Member
Hmm, not sure I understand. Supers were tough at low levels for me. I know they leveled up with me as I did, but all this did (as far as I understand) is increase the chance to see "Overlords" and...uh...the other Adjective Super Mutants. That felt very natural to me, like any other RPG that has variations of enemies to signify that they are tougher.Ceebs said:
Now, I agree that on the surface it can be kind of annoying, especially if it becomes too meta and you think, "oh, I better clear out the cave now before I reach level 10, otherwise it'll be populated with more tier 2 enemies", but it's a small price to pay.
Oblivion had a similar idea, but instead decided to actually replace enemies. As mentioned, rats really did become liches. Bandits - not "bandit leaders" or anything - started wearing the top tier armor. That was nonsense.
An ideal for me would be a dungeon that featured enemies tagged a certain way being random in a dungeon. For instance a mountain crypt would have enemies that are tagged as "undead" like your skeletons and liches. It would then have a dungeon level so each enemy should be within a few levels of that range. You could also use the skeletons as lower tier monsters and just have like a group of 5 lvl 10's be considered a lvl 20 creature. That give you plenty of variety and the dungeon could be different every time you explored it due to the random nature of the enemy selection. (You would still want placed boss and special creatures though)Minsc said:
BlazingDarkness
Member
Level-scaling: It is coming back
fucksake
fucksake
Grimm Fandango
Member
bounchfx said:
As people have said, it can influence mission design, making traversing and exploring less friendly.
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
Not surprised they did away with classes. Classless systems are my ideal but i know in my bones Howard is doing this because its "easier" and not because they put a bunch of thought into it. The most thought they probably put into it was how much it would save them by not having to pay someone to do class art. Probably saves Bethesda a couple thousand dollars.
Getting rid of Mysticism now? ill be shocked if this is the only skill thats cut.
God damn.. how did the guy responsible for those shit awful Terminator games get into my fucking Elder Scrolls?
Getting rid of Mysticism now? ill be shocked if this is the only skill thats cut.
God damn.. how did the guy responsible for those shit awful Terminator games get into my fucking Elder Scrolls?
Sounds promising, hopefully the dungeons really are unique. I'd rather have less dungeons than 20 of the same texture set. Crafting and farming could be cool as hell I'll hope for the best. I really hope combat is improved, please let it be gory with decapitations and the like,(fallout style) no more wooden swords plox. The level scaling and whatnot is disappointing if it is like F3 however then so be it, that game still felt intense. *runs to check out scans*
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