Professor Renegade
Banned
All of this boils down to competent game design.
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What is that "certain something" that makes many of us enjoy Japanese games so much?
- Thread starter Imp the Dimp
- Start date
The "focus group" effect is the biggest factor for me I think, as my favorite games from the West are games with really distinct artistic vision (Druckmann/Straley) and my least favorite Japanese games are the ones that feel this way (FFXV).
Design by committee shit will straight up ruin a game for me. I remember thinking Arkham Knight was super polished and solid but just felt completely devoid of personality and I ended up dropping it halfway through.
I don't want to generalize, but I'd say mechanical depth. You can really sink your teeth into the mechanics of japanese games, while a lot of western titles are presentation-first. Not saying one is better than the other (OK, I kind of am), but I do feel like the former ends up being a more rewarding experience.
Version 3.0
Member
Exactly what I was going to post.
To generalize (and therefore be wrong on many counts, but still), Japanese developers seem to prioritize game design, even in the midst of whatever wackiness the game might otherwise have.
Western developers perhaps put presentation as the #1 priority, more often than the game itself.
Cow Goes Moo
Member
we're just all weabs
kingkaiser
Member
What I like
Turn based combat
Charming presentation
Passion for detail
Not taking itself too seriously
What I dislike
Over-sexualization
Infantile humor
Heavily emphasizing on a story that actually doesn't make any sense
Turn based combat
Charming presentation
Passion for detail
Not taking itself too seriously
What I dislike
Over-sexualization
Infantile humor
Heavily emphasizing on a story that actually doesn't make any sense
It makes for funny stories when they can't help themselves, though.
Like what was initially Sony hiring From Software to make an Oblivion clone, ended up giving us Demon's Souls. The project wasn't working, and Miyazaki saw the opportunity to become director and do whatever the hell he wanted.
And it's interesting that the environment there allowed it to happen. They could just have told him "ok, you're director now, but stick to the plan", but no. He just created what he wanted, and everyone followed his vision. That's pretty cool.
A bunch of different things:
-I often enjoy the sort of refracted look in the mirror of Japanese entertainment. So much of Japanese animation, film, and games toys with themes and events in western history and culture but through the eyes of someone not from that world.
It's just weird when you have things like Mother from a guy who, iirc, never went to the USA.
Or things like MGS, so much about the American spy thriller and American politics.
Or things like Fire Emblem, with their strange meeting of western and Japanese medieval tropes.
-Games in translation masks the crappy dialogue and half baked plots of most games. Especially before voice acting. With the sense that I am not getting the words of the developers, I tend to take strange dialogue both more seriously and in good fun instead of pointing and laughing at it.
-Artistic style. Japanese games tend to be more visually appealing to me, with heavier art direction and often less of a push to realism. Japanese visual arts culture has its excesses and its flawed, ugly, or bland examples, but I think it is richer than our own.
-Music. Japanese games tend to have heavier soundtracks than western games and I grew up liking my games with constant, obviously there music.
-Most of the best console oriented games I've played are Japanese. Part of this is that Japanese games set my standards as a child. Part of this is that, I think, Japanese developers really captured the streamlined and simplified console design ethos better than western developers have. Console RPG, Platformers, Linear action games, action-adventure, etc. are all very Japanese dominated genres.
-Nintendo is a very particular, very skilled and polished example of Japanese game design, which also happens to be, I'd contend, the best console publisher/developer in the world by a safe margin. They are also prolific and have a huge thumb on the scale.
-polymorphous perversity. Whether Pokemon or Waifu, Japanese developers have a stranglehold on cute. I love cute monsters. I find guilty or not so guilty, depending on context, pleasure in cute girls in stories usually excised from the trials and tribulations of the modern western sexual life, which, tbh, turns me off and shunts me aside. Japanese games are often simultaneously pandering and 'innocent,' it can be quite the toxic and quite the self-affirming combination. And great escapism.
-I often enjoy the sort of refracted look in the mirror of Japanese entertainment. So much of Japanese animation, film, and games toys with themes and events in western history and culture but through the eyes of someone not from that world.
It's just weird when you have things like Mother from a guy who, iirc, never went to the USA.
Or things like MGS, so much about the American spy thriller and American politics.
Or things like Fire Emblem, with their strange meeting of western and Japanese medieval tropes.
-Games in translation masks the crappy dialogue and half baked plots of most games. Especially before voice acting. With the sense that I am not getting the words of the developers, I tend to take strange dialogue both more seriously and in good fun instead of pointing and laughing at it.
-Artistic style. Japanese games tend to be more visually appealing to me, with heavier art direction and often less of a push to realism. Japanese visual arts culture has its excesses and its flawed, ugly, or bland examples, but I think it is richer than our own.
-Music. Japanese games tend to have heavier soundtracks than western games and I grew up liking my games with constant, obviously there music.
-Most of the best console oriented games I've played are Japanese. Part of this is that Japanese games set my standards as a child. Part of this is that, I think, Japanese developers really captured the streamlined and simplified console design ethos better than western developers have. Console RPG, Platformers, Linear action games, action-adventure, etc. are all very Japanese dominated genres.
-Nintendo is a very particular, very skilled and polished example of Japanese game design, which also happens to be, I'd contend, the best console publisher/developer in the world by a safe margin. They are also prolific and have a huge thumb on the scale.
-polymorphous perversity. Whether Pokemon or Waifu, Japanese developers have a stranglehold on cute. I love cute monsters. I find guilty or not so guilty, depending on context, pleasure in cute girls in stories usually excised from the trials and tribulations of the modern western sexual life, which, tbh, turns me off and shunts me aside. Japanese games are often simultaneously pandering and 'innocent,' it can be quite the toxic and quite the self-affirming combination. And great escapism.
That's largely what I was going to post too.
There's general trends I both like and dislike from both, but in a raw sense of how the game 'feels', generally I seem to prefer the raw mechanics of Japanese games and don't really care enough about photorealism to appreciate the hard work that goes into the presentation of cinematic western games.
They dont try to be a movie like Mass Effect,Uncharted,Tomb Raider or having painfully bad combat systems like Witcher,Skyrim,Dragon Age.Or they are not piss easy like Batman,God of War games.
pretty easy to figure out. if you figure this 3 thing out you make good games.
Most good western games are those who follow this rule. Rocket League for example, extreme tight controls,good gameplay. Overwatch for example. Shovel Knight for example,Crash Bandicoot,Mortal Kombat Shaolin Monks and goes on.
pretty easy to figure out. if you figure this 3 thing out you make good games.
Most good western games are those who follow this rule. Rocket League for example, extreme tight controls,good gameplay. Overwatch for example. Shovel Knight for example,Crash Bandicoot,Mortal Kombat Shaolin Monks and goes on.
I think Japanese games tend to have a more cohesive sense of direction. Not just the MGS series but most other Japanese games tend have a singular vision behind all of their design decision from story to gameplay to music and visuals. Certain western games also have that like DOOM(2016) and Double fine games but for the most part western AAA games have a "design by committee" feel to them. They rarely have singular vision driving them forward as gameplay feels at odds with the story.
I'm in the boat that finds Japanese aesthetics to be generally stronger (even in "Western styles" like the Souls games and Yakuza), and I don't think that even the most critically-praised lower-budget western games really come close in that area. Not to say they can't knock it out of the park mechanically and still look nice enough.
hydrophilic attack
Member
They are just better at making competent gameplay systems in the genres I enjoy most. Their gameplay systems in third-person melee action games and RPGs are just generally more tight and interesting in my opinion. Some Western indie developers are able to compete, but for bigger-budget titles, Western developers are left in the dust
Chill Penguin
Member
Creativity, fantasy and escapism as opposed to grittiness and the more grounded in reality nature of western games.
Sorc3r3r
Member
I think that, in everything men do, there is always a certain level of art, a craftsmanship, the mark of the artist, something that you saw or hear or play in our case and immediately recognise as something done by a very specific talent.
Videogame makers in Japan mark their game way more than in the west, i can see the their soul at work in my games and their games becoming alive for the better or not, but something unique nonetheless.
Something that seldom happens while I'm playing western games, instead often i feel I'm playing a checklist game, a masterful display of technic and knowledge, but totally anonymous.
Videogame makers in Japan mark their game way more than in the west, i can see the their soul at work in my games and their games becoming alive for the better or not, but something unique nonetheless.
Something that seldom happens while I'm playing western games, instead often i feel I'm playing a checklist game, a masterful display of technic and knowledge, but totally anonymous.
poipoipoi9
Member
General optimism and lack of cynicism. I dunno how to properly explain it, but playing something like Yakuza vs something like Sleeping Dogs or later GTA titles and you can see what I mean. Both are pretty serious crime dramas that get fairly dark, but Yakuza's story still feels somewhat hopeful and optimistic by the end whereas Sleeping Dogs wore me out at the end with how miserable everyone became.
So to elaborate further, some spoilers:
Yakuza 0 :
Sleeping Dogs:
So to elaborate further, some spoilers:
Yakuza 0 :
So a bunch of decent people died for nothing and you chose to leave your girlfriend so she wouldn't be caught up with your way of life, but in the end you still have your best buddy with you, and you learn how to live your life to the fullest.
So a bunch of decent people died and you got your revenge, but everything feels empty. You don't know where you truly belong to, and you don't have much left.
As others have said, gameplay and mechanics.
Western devs are bad or afraid of those.
There are exceptions though, but usually from genres I don't care for, like strategy and mobas, and some shooters.
And even western devs try and actually put in work, they never really get it right.
Western devs are bad or afraid of those.
There are exceptions though, but usually from genres I don't care for, like strategy and mobas, and some shooters.
And even western devs try and actually put in work, they never really get it right.
One of the things is creativity. Pretty much every WRPG is based on tolkien and with nothing different about each other aside of better graphics each gen.
Too many games which are just a copypaste from a previous one (cough ubisoft cough). Also the pandering to casualization. Japanese devs are starting to do it, which annoys me a little, but western developers don't even try to balance the game past the normal dfficulty option.
Too many games which are just a copypaste from a previous one (cough ubisoft cough). Also the pandering to casualization. Japanese devs are starting to do it, which annoys me a little, but western developers don't even try to balance the game past the normal dfficulty option.
For me it's mostly really just linearity and genre. I can't play nonlinear games much without getting lost because I have dyspraxia, and a lot of bigger western games are shooters in some form and aiming at things with a reticle is just inherently not fun to me. A lot of western indie games don't fit into either of these categories, though, and still feel weird to me for reasons I can't really pinpoint. It could just be the way the controls/movement feel (especially in something like Limbo).
A lot of PC-exclusive western games are also designed in mind with a PC interface, which just feels off to me. Whenever I play something like Civilization or Sim City I feel like I'm doing homework instead of playing a game. I think western gaming's largely PC-centric roots are part of why I'm not a big fan of them.
A lot of PC-exclusive western games are also designed in mind with a PC interface, which just feels off to me. Whenever I play something like Civilization or Sim City I feel like I'm doing homework instead of playing a game. I think western gaming's largely PC-centric roots are part of why I'm not a big fan of them.
Strangelove77
Member
"Magic" also works here too.
The discussion started out pretty well, but it's pretty much devolving into the nonsensical.
Personally, I'm waiting for someone to cite the "power of friendship" as to why Japanese games are so good.
I've been very outspoken of my disdain for traditional japanese games, especially the generic art styles.
However, I've come to realize that many of my favorite games this generation are japanese. These being Bloodborne, RE7, MGS5 and DS2:SOTFS.
I think the common thread here is that all these games have western aesthetics, but with Japenese gameplay and design. The latter being responsive controls, great combat, fluidity of movement etc.
However, I've come to realize that many of my favorite games this generation are japanese. These being Bloodborne, RE7, MGS5 and DS2:SOTFS.
I think the common thread here is that all these games have western aesthetics, but with Japenese gameplay and design. The latter being responsive controls, great combat, fluidity of movement etc.
petran79
Banned
I remember also liking Western games to the same extent as Japanese games, if not more.
But I feel changes in Western games were far more drastic than what happened with Japanese games in the 90s.
Genres that defined Western computer games were either put to the sideline or lost great deal of their appeal. While Japanese games remained more stable, thanks also to the continuous presence of arcade games.
I mean sure, Western FPS and Action games would still be #1 in the players preferences, but there was still hype for the latest point and click adventure, flight simulator or strategy game.
Games that appeared to be pure computer games instead of a consolized experience and that also defined computer games.
But I feel changes in Western games were far more drastic than what happened with Japanese games in the 90s.
Genres that defined Western computer games were either put to the sideline or lost great deal of their appeal. While Japanese games remained more stable, thanks also to the continuous presence of arcade games.
I mean sure, Western FPS and Action games would still be #1 in the players preferences, but there was still hype for the latest point and click adventure, flight simulator or strategy game.
Games that appeared to be pure computer games instead of a consolized experience and that also defined computer games.
DarkChronic
Member
For me it has always been the creative and imaginative worlds they seem to create.
And cool looking characters. Western developers hardly can come close to character design, save a few exceptions here and there.
And cool looking characters. Western developers hardly can come close to character design, save a few exceptions here and there.
ElfArmy177
Member
Atmosphere
Raven117
Member
The creativity in the artdesign that seems more foreign that what we have in the West.
The attention to the tightness of gameplay.
Pretty much those two things.
While the West has a lock on the "Scope" of games, the East has a lock on gameplay.
(Well, we shall see what BotW does).
The attention to the tightness of gameplay.
Pretty much those two things.
While the West has a lock on the "Scope" of games, the East has a lock on gameplay.
(Well, we shall see what BotW does).
nailbombxx
Member
Good gameplay mechanics usually
Sheriff_Battlesnake
Banned
The philosophical approach. I think they go for headier concepts, even if they often don't stick the landing. I appreciate the attempt and love the outcome.
Xenogears, Chrono Cross, MGS2, so on.
They made me think about things differently, and when I was younger I didn't know what "good execution" looked like so I was blown away.
Xenogears, Chrono Cross, MGS2, so on.
They made me think about things differently, and when I was younger I didn't know what "good execution" looked like so I was blown away.
Barry Burton
Member
In general, there's a much stronger emphasis on game design and polish over presentation and volume of content.
Most of the best-designed and most fun games I've ever played have been Japanese-developed, and many of the Western games that would make that list have been Japanese-published (for example, the only Western games I've played that have great boss fights across-the-board were made by Retro Studios; I don't think that's a coincidence).
Most of the best-designed and most fun games I've ever played have been Japanese-developed, and many of the Western games that would make that list have been Japanese-published (for example, the only Western games I've played that have great boss fights across-the-board were made by Retro Studios; I don't think that's a coincidence).
Silvawuff
Member
I think there's a definite je nais se quoi to Japanese game design with lots of cultural mythos influence that makes a good game.
It could also be our cultural fascination for what makes another culture tick. They enjoy western games across the pond as much as we enjoy what they have to offer.
It could also be our cultural fascination for what makes another culture tick. They enjoy western games across the pond as much as we enjoy what they have to offer.
NOLA_Gaffer
Banned
I've always enjoyed the weirdness of it all. Katamari Damacy, Gitaroo Man, The Munchables, that kind of stuff.
D
Deleted member 752119
Unconfirmed Member
Just some charm/uniqueness for me. It makes games like FFXV enjoyable for me (73 hours and counting with DLC to come) despite the gameplay being kind of meh for me, the sidequests terrible fetch quest or kill x monsters tripe etc.
Gameplay mechanics etc. are probably a big part of it for some, but honestly that's a turn off to me as I like simple games as I play mostly for the immersion/experience, story, characters etc. these days. So things like JRPGs I'll turn down the difficulty if that's an option so I can just focus on those things and not have to dig deep into leveling, gear, battle systems etc.
At the end of the day, I have shifted to prefers western games as those nail the immersive, cinematic type experiences more for me. But I still turn to things like Nintendo games, Gravity Rush, Persona, Final Fantasy for that Japanese uniqueness and charm to get something different.
Gameplay mechanics etc. are probably a big part of it for some, but honestly that's a turn off to me as I like simple games as I play mostly for the immersion/experience, story, characters etc. these days. So things like JRPGs I'll turn down the difficulty if that's an option so I can just focus on those things and not have to dig deep into leveling, gear, battle systems etc.
At the end of the day, I have shifted to prefers western games as those nail the immersive, cinematic type experiences more for me. But I still turn to things like Nintendo games, Gravity Rush, Persona, Final Fantasy for that Japanese uniqueness and charm to get something different.
Imp the Dimp
Member
Some great responses here without too much hostility towards western games. Good manners, GAF.
I very much liked this post:
I very much liked this post:
They're so wierd and wonderful.
Western games feel too mundane, especially AAA stuff. and Japanese games tend to have more refined mechanics.
Though i'm of the unpopular opinion that saints row 4 was delightfully strange and really damned fun to play. And sometimes Japanese games focus too much on fetish bait characters over quality gameplay.
Western games feel too mundane, especially AAA stuff. and Japanese games tend to have more refined mechanics.
Though i'm of the unpopular opinion that saints row 4 was delightfully strange and really damned fun to play. And sometimes Japanese games focus too much on fetish bait characters over quality gameplay.
SolVanderlyn
Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
Same. I didn't even realize I liked Japanese games until I was 13 or 14 despite playing them throughout my childhood. There's something about the way Japanese games look, handle and feel that's ingrained in me as the type of video game I like.
Japanese games feel "tighter" than western games to me. Western games feel much more free and loose, from everything to the animations down to the game design itself. This isn't a bad thing, it's just a different thing. I like western games too, but the more concentrated feel of Japanese games is just my thing.
Love me some チーズケーキ
Experience.
If you grew up playing NES, Mega Drive to Saturn, PS, there is no way you're not influenced by the Japanese culture one way or another.
But if you're young enough that only played pc, xbox or ps3 modern games such fps, sports, moba, the person may never appreciate different experience.
It's like if people don't go out to travel to see for themselves, they'll never have a chance to understand others.
If you grew up playing NES, Mega Drive to Saturn, PS, there is no way you're not influenced by the Japanese culture one way or another.
But if you're young enough that only played pc, xbox or ps3 modern games such fps, sports, moba, the person may never appreciate different experience.
It's like if people don't go out to travel to see for themselves, they'll never have a chance to understand others.
What has happened is that the Japanese games we're seeing on consoles and handhelds aren't so driven by western mass market trends like AAA western console games are. Japanese developers tried that for a bit during the early Xbox 360 years and it failed. Even during that era though, while people were complaining about all the trends western devs were following, many Japanese games ignored what the west was doing for better or worse. Today, a few are taking what I would consider the positive aspects of western games that actually have something to contribute to what they're doing, but aren't trying to copy the whole focus-tested approach whole hog.
There are mass market trends that are taking over the Japanese market, but they're different from the ones prevalent in the west. In the west it's console games going more towards online services, open worlds with XP and loot dropped everywhere, etc. In Japan it's the shift towards mobile games and gatcha games in particular. You can see this with what happened to Konami. As a result, the Japanese games that do reach consoles aren't the ones trying to be all things to all players, they're the games that are already targeting a more focused audience, and thus are more able to stick to a more narrow design vision. RE7 is a pretty good example -- Capcom budgeted the game so low compared to RE6 that it was satisfied with selling just 2 million copies. It looked at what western horror games were doing, borrowed what worked, but didn't try to become a carbon copy of Outlast and Amnesia.
Western console games that aren't possessed with ticking all the AAA box points are becoming exceedingly rare. Most of the recent ones I can even think of are being published by Bethesda Softworks, which has been just about the only big western publisher still doing a lot of single player games that can be completely enjoyed offline: Wolfenstein, Dishonored 2, DOOM, and eventually Prey. The last couple Deus Ex game are a good example to look at. Both of them try to nail a balance between tight and focused but also open-ended level design while all the big action games are either COD-style corridors or open worlds filled with busywork. Deus Ex Human Revolution did a lot of things action games just don't do anymore in how it approached its systems and how the player can interact with the environment. Deus Ex Mankind Divided did those same things, but even it couldn't escape from AAA trends, since it had to have that Breach mode and other stuff connecting players to whatever social network Square Enix was trying to set up. I think people love Witcher 3 so much because it applies AAA budget and production value to an experience with a relatively focused design. It's not really concerned with being Skyrim or Call of Duty. It may have learned some lessons from Skyrim but still set out to largely be its own thing. As a result, Witcher 3 does quest design and world design in a way that felt new and interesting to a lot of players.
Most of the western games that aren't falling into these issues with AAA focus-tested design, but aren't tiny indie games, are on PC. A lot of them seem to be kickstarter games too --- the kickstarter CRPGs, Elite Dangerous, etc. Those games depended on enough people displaying their interest in ideas that in today's market are pretty unique.
There are mass market trends that are taking over the Japanese market, but they're different from the ones prevalent in the west. In the west it's console games going more towards online services, open worlds with XP and loot dropped everywhere, etc. In Japan it's the shift towards mobile games and gatcha games in particular. You can see this with what happened to Konami. As a result, the Japanese games that do reach consoles aren't the ones trying to be all things to all players, they're the games that are already targeting a more focused audience, and thus are more able to stick to a more narrow design vision. RE7 is a pretty good example -- Capcom budgeted the game so low compared to RE6 that it was satisfied with selling just 2 million copies. It looked at what western horror games were doing, borrowed what worked, but didn't try to become a carbon copy of Outlast and Amnesia.
Western console games that aren't possessed with ticking all the AAA box points are becoming exceedingly rare. Most of the recent ones I can even think of are being published by Bethesda Softworks, which has been just about the only big western publisher still doing a lot of single player games that can be completely enjoyed offline: Wolfenstein, Dishonored 2, DOOM, and eventually Prey. The last couple Deus Ex game are a good example to look at. Both of them try to nail a balance between tight and focused but also open-ended level design while all the big action games are either COD-style corridors or open worlds filled with busywork. Deus Ex Human Revolution did a lot of things action games just don't do anymore in how it approached its systems and how the player can interact with the environment. Deus Ex Mankind Divided did those same things, but even it couldn't escape from AAA trends, since it had to have that Breach mode and other stuff connecting players to whatever social network Square Enix was trying to set up. I think people love Witcher 3 so much because it applies AAA budget and production value to an experience with a relatively focused design. It's not really concerned with being Skyrim or Call of Duty. It may have learned some lessons from Skyrim but still set out to largely be its own thing. As a result, Witcher 3 does quest design and world design in a way that felt new and interesting to a lot of players.
Most of the western games that aren't falling into these issues with AAA focus-tested design, but aren't tiny indie games, are on PC. A lot of them seem to be kickstarter games too --- the kickstarter CRPGs, Elite Dangerous, etc. Those games depended on enough people displaying their interest in ideas that in today's market are pretty unique.
randomengine
Banned
Game design
Tbh, I wouldn't call that the philosophical approach. Pseudo-philosophical babble and artistic exploration of things loosely inspired by philosophical texts, isn't particularly philosophical. It is intellectual meandering and masturbation, which is all good fun, but isn't philosophical. It is just sound to match the mood of the images.
It is interesting because I very much do think Japanese game design is more philosophical and it is along the lines people have been hammering on throughout this thread. Tighter game design. Cohesive artistic vision. Japanese games just come across as more theory-driven in design, whereas western games come across, often times, as more loose with their core concepts.
IDK this is hyperbole but is also very much what I feel, seemingly in common with many in this thread.
To me, I've always felt that Japanese developers know how to do 3rd person melee-combat better than the west. That is probably the number one "certain something" to me.
Compared to some Japanese action titles, some western games animation and combat sometimes looks goofy and feels clunky.
I also prefer the art direction most of the time in Japanese games. The weapons and armor that are in Monster Hunter and Dark Souls look so impressive compared to anything I've seen in other western games.
Anyway, I don't hate western games or anything, these are just the quirks that make me like Japanese games slightly more.
Compared to some Japanese action titles, some western games animation and combat sometimes looks goofy and feels clunky.
I also prefer the art direction most of the time in Japanese games. The weapons and armor that are in Monster Hunter and Dark Souls look so impressive compared to anything I've seen in other western games.
Anyway, I don't hate western games or anything, these are just the quirks that make me like Japanese games slightly more.