the_topher
Member
No, lore-wise it's a completely different franchise
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Dark Souls 3 Story and Lore Discussion [Unmarked Spoilers]
- Thread starter GorillaJu
- Start date
No, lore-wise it's a completely different franchise
The Artisan
Member
wow I didn't know that. from an aesthetic point of view they look like they're in the same universe
So what's the thing that appears in the sky after you beat the first three lords? It looks a bit like the darksign, but since the pilgrim butterflies only appear after it does, I'm thinking it's a hole to some other place, hence why they're called pilgrim butterflies because they're coming through the hole to Lothric. It does also look like it's leaking slightly in Lothric itself, much moreso near the kiln.
Maybe I'm talking out of my ass.
Maybe I'm talking out of my ass.
N
Noray
Unconfirmed Member
Speaking of the Darksign sun, I don't have much in the way of theories yet, but I did just notice that you can't see it from Firelink shrine, despite the fact that it's right beneath Lothric castle. The sky looks normal from there. So that's more evidence that the hub Firelink Shrine is in a different time than the rest of the game.
ps what the fuck are those giant wiry winged things you can see flying all over lothric castle
i never got to see one close up or fight one- the only time they got remotely close was in the dragonslayer armor fight
you can imagine my surprise when a guy in dragonslayer armor got helped out by some weird ass looking dragons
also what's up with all the people turning into trees. is that a DS2 reference?
i never got to see one close up or fight one- the only time they got remotely close was in the dragonslayer armor fight
you can imagine my surprise when a guy in dragonslayer armor got helped out by some weird ass looking dragons
also what's up with all the people turning into trees. is that a DS2 reference?
Iva Demilcol
Member
I have the theory that people are trying to turn into other things (trees or dragons) in order to escape the cycle, pretty much like Aldia did.
I also think that the royal family of Lothric may be descendants of Shanalotte (They are still doing what Shanalotte suggested in vanilla DS2: to inherit the throne in order to link the fire and let anything to play out again). At the same time it's super interesting that it seems Pontiff Sullivan is trying to conquest the land in the name of Aldrich. I'm still unsure about this as well, but it seems that the people in Irythill of the Boreal Valley may be descendants of the old gods of Anor Londo.
N
Noray
Unconfirmed Member
They are the same things. Pilgrim butterflies. Don't ask me why or what because I have no idea. Something is drawing all the pilgrims towards Lothric and the darksign sun.
how do you know they're the pilgrims?
when do you see one transform into one of those things? can you get a close up look at it?
Iva Demilcol
Member
They are not the pilgrims, they are called Pilgrim Butterflies. From the soul of the Dragonslayer Armour:
"The Dragonslayer Armour, controlled by the Pilgrim Butterfly, lost its master long ago, but still remembers their sporting hunts."
The cycle can't be broken free from permanently. I think it's the Fire Keeper who says (after you give her eyes) that she foresee's (to paraphrase) "many tiny flames in the darkness" as the future if you were to refuse to link the fire. One of these tiny flames will inevitably link the fire and keep the cycle going.
No idea at all... Actually at first, I thought they were connected to Aldrich.
Maybe, in some way, it's connected to Oceiros? I have no basis for this other than there are lots of mutated enemies in his garden, but they do look a little like malformed dragons, so they could potentially be linked. The fact that the first boss in the game transforms like that surely means it's significant though.
MegaMelon
Member
Soeven in the Usurpation ending eventually the flame will arise again? Man I was really hoping we'd have permanently moved on from the age of fire what with this being the last(?) dark souls game.
GwyndolinCinder
Member
They are , londor is the land of hollows
Beat Soul of Cinder. One of the best fights in the game.
Fighting Nameless King now, one of the worst. Yeah, the idea and aesthetic is incredible. You wouldn't find it in any other game but fuck me the camera is an absolute disaster.
OT: "Age of Water" is interesting as Water would be the only thing that wouldn't let the embers come back. Incoming Soggy Souls.
Fighting Nameless King now, one of the worst. Yeah, the idea and aesthetic is incredible. You wouldn't find it in any other game but fuck me the camera is an absolute disaster.
OT: "Age of Water" is interesting as Water would be the only thing that wouldn't let the embers come back. Incoming Soggy Souls.
MayhemStrider
Neo Member
I have some disjointed thoughts that might kickstart some ideas with Aldritch, the illusion of Anor Londo and the painted world.
What if Crossbreed Priscilla was actually an illusion Aldritch created for him or herself based off of Yorshka in his illusion world, I'll start with the peculiar doll description
A strange doll in strange dress.
There once was an abomination who had
no place in this world. She clutched this
doll tightly, and eventually was drawn into
a cold and lonely painted world.
Aldritch is definitely an abomination to start with, possibly some kinda abyss originated creature (Conjecture). The gods would definitely have reason to lock away and not want to engage something that is attempting to eat them / has Lifehunt capabilities, for all we know everything in the painted world is a total lie/illusion.
Another thought, I wonder who was actually responsible for the illusion of anor londo, I think we all assumed it was Gwyndolin because he the only one there really. Who knows for sure though. Whats the nature of those illusions, does someone still have to be there to perpetuate it?
Who the heck was Ariamis
Maybe the same tech that allowed for the painted world to exist was the same tech as the anor londo illusion and eventually that came apart unleashing aldritch from whatever the hell the painted world was and it proceeded to eat everything there.
What is the black goop?
Soul of priscilla
Use the soul of this crossbreed bastard (Sidenote Maybe aldritch was actually an attempt of a crossbreed between a hollow and a dragon gone horribly wrong)
child and antithesis to all life to acquire
a huge amount (sic) of souls, or to create
a unique weapon.
Lifehunt scythe DS3
Miracle of Aldrich, Devourer of Gods.
Steals HP of foes using an illusory scythe.
Aldrich dreamt as he slowly devoured the God of the Darkmoon. In this dream, he perceived the form of a young, pale girl in hiding.
Perhaps the painted world was the dream and everything in anor londo's illusion including the fight with gwyndolin was an elaborate illusion while aldritch was eating them and no one locked her away at all.
I know I literally changed my mind like 3 times in the process of writing this, just wanted to share thanks for reading.
What if Crossbreed Priscilla was actually an illusion Aldritch created for him or herself based off of Yorshka in his illusion world, I'll start with the peculiar doll description
A strange doll in strange dress.
There once was an abomination who had
no place in this world. She clutched this
doll tightly, and eventually was drawn into
a cold and lonely painted world.
Aldritch is definitely an abomination to start with, possibly some kinda abyss originated creature (Conjecture). The gods would definitely have reason to lock away and not want to engage something that is attempting to eat them / has Lifehunt capabilities, for all we know everything in the painted world is a total lie/illusion.
Another thought, I wonder who was actually responsible for the illusion of anor londo, I think we all assumed it was Gwyndolin because he the only one there really. Who knows for sure though. Whats the nature of those illusions, does someone still have to be there to perpetuate it?
Who the heck was Ariamis
Maybe the same tech that allowed for the painted world to exist was the same tech as the anor londo illusion and eventually that came apart unleashing aldritch from whatever the hell the painted world was and it proceeded to eat everything there.
What is the black goop?
Soul of priscilla
Use the soul of this crossbreed bastard (Sidenote Maybe aldritch was actually an attempt of a crossbreed between a hollow and a dragon gone horribly wrong)
child and antithesis to all life to acquire
a huge amount (sic) of souls, or to create
a unique weapon.
Lifehunt scythe DS3
Miracle of Aldrich, Devourer of Gods.
Steals HP of foes using an illusory scythe.
Aldrich dreamt as he slowly devoured the God of the Darkmoon. In this dream, he perceived the form of a young, pale girl in hiding.
Perhaps the painted world was the dream and everything in anor londo's illusion including the fight with gwyndolin was an elaborate illusion while aldritch was eating them and no one locked her away at all.
I know I literally changed my mind like 3 times in the process of writing this, just wanted to share thanks for reading.
Is UG Firelink Shrine the future/alternate version of hub Firelink Shrine, based on Shrine Handmaiden recognizing you plus the Seed of the Giant? Also something Belated Champion something.
Also kind of interesting that you get both Artorias' set and Lord's Blade Ciaran's ring in dark Shrine.
Also kind of interesting that you get both Artorias' set and Lord's Blade Ciaran's ring in dark Shrine.
I still think it is Gwyndolin - to me, that's the reason why the moon's out in Irithyll and Anor Londo. In DS1, the moon came out if you killed Gwynevere's illusion or if you killed Gwyndolin himself. In DS3, Gwyndolin is already dead and is essentially animated by Aldritch, which is why the moon is out.
Aldritch is basically a parasite, the more I think about it.
Anor Londo isn't an illusion.
Those are very disjointed thoughts, are you in the camp that Aldrich is Priscilla? Aldrich just seems like a nobody, scum. That decided to devour the gods.
Also to the user who was saying that Yorshka isn't referring to Gwyn and Gwen as family but as religious figures, you're 100% right.
Those are very disjointed thoughts, are you in the camp that Aldrich is Priscilla? Aldrich just seems like a nobody, scum. That decided to devour the gods.
Also to the user who was saying that Yorshka isn't referring to Gwyn and Gwen as family but as religious figures, you're 100% right.
MayhemStrider
Neo Member
Now I'm thinking that priscilla didnt exist and the entire painted world of ariamis and possibly the illusion of anor londo (not the place itself but the illusion that gets dispelled when you attack gwynevere in DS1) is Aldritch possibly simultaneously eating gwyndolin.
This makes no sense. You can fight Gwyndolin. He's not being devoured. This would be a retcon of the highest order and honestly, something incredibly stupid and damaging to the lore.
MayhemStrider
Neo Member
You fight Ornstein too and they imply hes an illusion now. I think we have to start getting weird with our thoughts on these games and stop trying to shackle them to what would make sense in our own physical laws. I'm not trying to pass anything off as fact, I'm just sharing my thoughts.
GwyndolinCinder
Member
Within in reasons, but the things your suggesting have no evidence to support them
MayhemStrider
Neo Member
And just like the rest of the games there isnt going to be enough evidence to support anything regarding the physical laws and differentiating what is dream/illusion or reality of where these games take place, any position we take on any question regarding this is going to have some logic to shut it down on either side of an argument.
GwyndolinCinder
Member
Well there;s a difference between not knowing how the parallel worlds of other plays link together, and shit everything its an illusion because i say so
Considering there are tons of players that didnt kill gwyndolin and Priscilla, they were friendly npcs after all, this is likely the case
MayhemStrider
Neo Member
Ok, you are definitely correct there I forgot that detail. About the illusion being dispelled when you kill Gwyndolin.
MayhemStrider
Neo Member
Hell maybe aldritch is the chosen undead rather than priscilla and all those item descriptions are allegory, priscilla was real but we went into a dreamworld and killed / took her soul along with gwyndolin, nito, everyone in DS1 etc. Maybe thats what a dark lord turns into idfk.
Personally I think Aldrich had that "vision" of Priscilla hidden in the painting and then invaded and devoured her. "Devouring" Lords isn't that different from what the player does in these games but I don't think Aldrich is supposed to be the ultimate form of the chosen undead from the first game.
What I'm not sure about is whether his visions of a "deep sea" were metaphorical (a deep abyss) or literal. I'm hopeful the first DLC pack is about "the deep" with the primordial serpents showing up.
What I'm not sure about is whether his visions of a "deep sea" were metaphorical (a deep abyss) or literal. I'm hopeful the first DLC pack is about "the deep" with the primordial serpents showing up.
Woah I totally missed this, is this in an item description somewhere?
Ornstein's armor is in Archdragon Peak and says he ventured off looking for the firstborn.
SargerusBR
I love Pokken!
Yeah but that leaves the Old Dragonslayer to deal it. Who the fuck is he then?
Iva Demilcol
Member
His armour possessed by a twisted soul or something?
We actually get a soul when we defeat his armour/illusion in DS1, so it's not impossible to assume that he's armour has been "haunted/possessed" during the time we encountered him in DSII.
MayhemStrider
Neo Member
Y'all are talking about the DS2 boss yeah? I imagine ornsteins hollowed self just ended up there at some point, the ds3 boss is just armor posessed by a pilgrim butterfly.
That never had to be Ornstein, honestly. I always thought it was a dude that took on ornstein's armor
N
Noray
Unconfirmed Member
Artorias never linked the flame though. My first thought is not to read too much into it - however there is the grave right outside of Firelink shrine that has Artorias' sword resting against it, and that's where we find the Hornet ring. Who knows.
We don't have any evidence that Aldritch ate Priscilla. He doesn't take on any of her physical attributes like he does Gwyndolyn's. He saw her in his dream and dreamt up Lifehunt based on that, is my read. Yorshka may be Priscilla but I'm not a big fan of that theory simply because she looks and sounds different and has a different name. I can't off-hand think of anything like that in Dark Souls. They may go with a title like "Nameless King", but Yorshka is Yorshka, a name given to her by her "brother", whatever that means. My first read was there's some relation to Ocelotte there, but I haven't worked it out yet. Maybe she was hidden away there by Gwynevere (if that was Oceiros' queen).
As for deep sea, I think they chose those words very specifically, and like I said earlier, in my headcanon they're an allusion to Bloodborne (see the Deep Sea rune, Kos washing up from the sea, the relationship between the Great Ones, dreams, and "great bodies of water", etc). It's vague enough that you can take it or leave it but there's nothing to go on besides two descriptions about "the coming age of the deep sea".
Again, I recommend everyone read this post https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkSouls3JPN/comments/4d53mv/lets_talk_lore_spoilers/ and the other lore posts this dude made. They're not airtight but there's a lot of good info and speculation.
SargerusBR
I love Pokken!
I thought that was Hawkwood's sword since i found his shield there.
N
Noray
Unconfirmed Member
That wouldn't explain the presence of that sword there in UG Firelink Shrine. Also it looks like the OG Artorias sword. Perhaps Hawkwood left his shield there as a tribute to the big dog?
Abyss has never ever been referred to like that before. Again, they chose those words specifically. "Coming age of the deep sea" = \ = "age of the dark". New Londo was not a deep sea. It was a shithole the Sealers flooded to contain the Abyss in lieu of a better, more permanent solution (chosen undead killing the 4 kings which did fuck all, and come to think of it the chosen undead may be responsible for darkwraiths still being around).
Also I think the gooey things are humanity run wild. If you read the description of the dark sigil: "The darkness of humanity seeps from this bottomless pitch-back hole, the gap filled by the accumulation of the curse." Humanity is literally leaking out of Gundyr. It wants the fuck out. It seeks the flame, perhaps? The darksign sun, the pilgrim butterflies flying towards it - humanity is being drawn to the sun, the biggest source of flame left, like moths to the flame. That's what I've got, anyway. Everything is dead, and what isn't dead is pissed the fuck off at being alive in this shit world.
My biggest question is still what it means to be "unkindled", and what makes them different from Undead, ie. why don't we Hollow? We still bear the Darksign:
I think there's something to be said maybe for a connection between UG Firelink and The Abyss, but it seems tenuous... there is no rampant humanity goo there. hnng give DLC pls From.
GwyndolinCinder
Member
Ramblings of tired me, with lack of evidence other than abyss goeeeyyy stuff trail.
Also its very hard to type, when the player character moves in reverse.
Right facts we have;
- Artorias grave/shrine at dark firelink
- we know that Firekeeper returned from abyss, also that someone was imprisoned at dark firelink a female
In reverse order of when we encounter gooey things, bear in mind that the goeey thing is contangeious and an item description ( cant remember which one) tells us
- Abyss goeey enemies start appearing from outside of the dark firelink in the past
- The next place you see the abyss goeey thing is on the rooftop as you head down through lothric the first time
- then right near the first bonfire of lothric there is another gooeey firelink thing
- Then there is a lord vessel and a coiled sword, used to warp? To the future seemingly
-Then the final one you see is ludex gundyr
Past firelink suddenly turns pitch black, almost like the abyss.......
dark firelink == "the abyss", from which the firekeeper returned and upon her arrival gundyr contracts the goeey abyss curse
Edit: fuck when i literally just thought this up whilst typing, i think i have evidence to support this!
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