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opricnik
Member
(04-21-2017, 09:58 AM)
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Rather want 1080p60fps first
Pif
Banned
(04-21-2017, 10:02 AM)
I'd really like that this dickwaving 4k fad would die already.

A PS5 sporting upwards of 10TF focused on 1080p60 would be my wet dream. But instead, let's spend resources on a resolution upgrade many people can't even perceive.
pottuvoi
Member
(04-21-2017, 10:11 AM)
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Originally Posted by opricnik

Rather want 1080p60fps first

1080c 60fps or similar would be nice.

Actually 30fps shading and 60fps rasterization should be fun alternative.
vio
Member
(04-21-2017, 10:17 AM)
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Better volumetric effects, lighting, foliage and shadow drawing distance at 1080p.
4k requires too much sacrifice.
Renekton
Member
(04-21-2017, 10:20 AM)
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So 1080p/60 has become the Thor: Dark World
Sad Affleck
Member
(04-21-2017, 11:17 AM)
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I think that expressing my personal preference of performance (at least 60 fps, ideally higher) over everything else could be considered shitposting in the context of this thread so I will answer the question and then explain why it is ultimately without meaning.

I would prefer native 4K at medium settings over chequerboard rendering at high. I have seen games running at 4K on PC and at chequerboard on PS4 Pro and to be honest I don't understand at all Digital Foundry's claims that the difference isn't noticeable. Maybe if you keep the image absolutely still and sit far away, but sit at a normal distance and move the camera and it becomes immediately clear that you are not seeing a native image. The picture becomes fuzzy, it's hard to describe but it's kinda like an extra layer of motion blur being applied over the already existing effects.

However the question is not that important anyway because developers will choose to use the available power in different ways. The PS4 Pro isn't powerful enough to do native 4K at reasonable settings in a modern AAA title so there is no choice there. On Scorpio developers might do native 4K at mediumish settings or they might choose to jse chequerboard rendering to bump the settings higher. I doubt that Microsoft will mandate the use of 4K across the board.

As for the gamers, if someone can't tell the difference between native 4K and checkerboard then I highly doubt he'll be able to tell the difference between medium and high settings. If you can't tell that the whole image isn't being rendered at your TV's native resolution then there'no way you'll be able to discern slightly better shadows or higher-quality ambient occlusion.
nekkid
Member
(04-21-2017, 11:25 AM)
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I wish MS would get their heads out their ass a bit, and realise native 4K isn't the be-all and end-all. I'd rather Halo 6 was checkerboard and effects/lighting maxxed on Scorpio, for example.
komplanen
Banned
(04-21-2017, 11:29 AM)
I think I'd prefer a checkerboard high if 'high' is noticeable to 'medium' in one look. I don't care about graphics quality that is minimal compared to the previous step, like in many cases 'Ultra' is just a tiny difference from 'very high' etc.
FLAguy954
Junior Member
(04-21-2017, 11:53 AM)
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Originally Posted by Pif

I'd really like that this dickwaving 4k fad would die already.

A PS5 sporting upwards of 10TF focused on 1080p60 would be my wet dream. But instead, let's spend resources on a resolution upgrade many people can't even perceive.

People can perceive the difference. What the fuck are you talking about?

You sound like the old guard last generation that was pushing the narrative that we wouldn't need any resolution higher than 720p.
Pif
Banned
(04-21-2017, 11:58 AM)

Originally Posted by FLAguy954

People can perceive the difference. What the fuck are you talking about?

You sound like the old guard last generation that was pushing the narrative that we wouldn't need any resolution higher than 720p.

I have seen 4k TVs running side by side the same movie as a 1080p set. I really had to look closely for a while to be able to tell which one was which. Pretty sure many other random people in there can't even tell a difference.
nekkid
Member
(04-21-2017, 11:59 AM)
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Originally Posted by Pif

I'd really like that this dickwaving 4k fad would die already.

A PS5 sporting upwards of 10TF focused on 1080p60 would be my wet dream. But instead, let's spend resources on a resolution upgrade many people can't even perceive.

What do you class as "many"? There's plenty of people who can definitely tell the difference between a 1080p and a 4K resolution.
LordOcidax
Member
(04-21-2017, 12:01 PM)
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Originally Posted by mlclmtckr

1080p60 Ultra, please.

Fixed
PleaseDontBanMe
Junior Member
(04-21-2017, 12:14 PM)
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Originally Posted by nekkid

What do you class as "many"? There's plenty of people who can definitely tell the difference between a 1080p and a 4K resolution.

I'm honestly one of the few who can't see much of a difference

but i'll admit it could be due to the specific 4k blurays and games I've played (I've only watched three 4k blurays and own a PS pro, never gamed in 4K on PC)
Final Verdict
Member
(04-21-2017, 12:16 PM)
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I think the question comes a bit prematurely.
Because Scorpio can support both native 4k or checkerboard rendering techniques for most modern games (as Microsoft has told us at least), we should see developers who test the techniques to see what looks best. Once we have real world examples, then I think we can have a proper conversation about this that involves far less speculation.
TheAdmiester
Member
(04-21-2017, 12:20 PM)
Native, always. Checkerboarding looks awful.
manueldelalas
Time Traveler
(04-21-2017, 12:32 PM)
If people think checkerboard is so good, why aren't we asking for 1080p checkerboard and better framerate?
Izuna
Member
(04-21-2017, 12:33 PM)
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You really should have posted an example for high vs. medium because for a lot of games it's rarely a huge difference outside of textures and shadows.

Originally Posted by manueldelalas

If people think checkerboard is so good, why aren't we asking for 1080p checkerboard and better framerate?

because that doesn't make their system sound powerful
Dee Dah Dave
Member
(04-21-2017, 12:36 PM)
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Originally Posted by TheAdmiester

Native, always. Checkerboarding looks awful.

I wouldn't go that far lol, it's a very good compromise overall. But I do agree with others that while decent, it still isn't close to a native 4K image. The motion clarity in particular is very noticeable.
Chamber
love on your sleeve
(04-21-2017, 12:38 PM)
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You can tell who hasn't played a game in 4K before. Improvements to IQ are way more noticeable than going from medium to high settings in most games. To say it's not a noticeable upgrade from 1080p is insanity.

Originally Posted by Pif

I have seen 4k TVs running side by side the same movie as a 1080p set. I really had to look closely for a while to be able to tell which one was which. Pretty sure many other random people in there can't even tell a difference.

What movie?
Dee Dah Dave
Member
(04-21-2017, 12:40 PM)
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Originally Posted by Chamber

You can tell who hasn't played a game in 4K before. Improvements to IQ are way more noticeable than going from medium to high settings in most games. To say it's not a noticeable upgrade from 1080p is insanity.

Yup. True 4K is like a graphics upgrade in and of itself. It gives games an entirely new and crisp look.
illamap
Junior Member
(04-21-2017, 12:43 PM)

Originally Posted by pottuvoi

1080c 60fps or similar would be nice.

.

Isn't that basicly rainbow six: siege?. With Ubisofts own chekerboarding algorithms. Works great on that game.
pottuvoi
Member
(04-21-2017, 12:45 PM)
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Originally Posted by illamap

Isn't that basicly rainbow six: siege?. With Ubisofts own chekerboarding algorithms. Works great on that game.

Yup.
Would sacrifice 1080p for 1080c gladly, if it would mean great TAA and stable framerate.
Gisele
Banned
(04-21-2017, 12:51 PM)

Originally Posted by Chamber

You can tell who hasn't played a game in 4K before. Improvements to IQ are way more noticeable than going from medium to high settings in most games. To say it's not a noticeable upgrade from 1080p is insanity.

People pay attention to different things. There's no one correct, ubiquitous solution.

For myself, when you bump the resolution up too high then all of the angles in the meshes become too easy to pick out, and that's something I find highly distracting. It's one of the reasons I don't think Wind Waker scales up well, because all of the models are super low poly.
nekkid
Member
(04-21-2017, 04:05 PM)
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Originally Posted by manueldelalas

If people think checkerboard is so good, why aren't we asking for 1080p checkerboard and better framerate?

Is that not similar to what Killzone SF did, albeit with vertical lines?
pretty done
Member
(04-21-2017, 04:20 PM)
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Originally Posted by Chamber

You can tell who hasn't played a game in 4K before. Improvements to IQ are way more noticeable than going from medium to high settings in most games. To say it's not a noticeable upgrade from 1080p is insanity.

I mean yea it's pretty obvious that anyone saying 1080p doesn't even have a 4K TV.

"Difference in resolution isn't noticeable" is some funny shit in here. Maybe go get an eye exam if you can't notice it. It's clear as day even comparing Uncharted 4 (1440p) to Horizon or Ratchet (2160c)
Pif
Banned
(04-21-2017, 04:21 PM)

Originally Posted by nekkid

What do you class as "many"? There's plenty of people who can definitely tell the difference between a 1080p and a 4K resolution.

I class "many" as the vast majority of people who use a TV. People who can immediately tell if it is a higher res than Full HD are not that common.


Imagine this fun game: I'll sit people in front of a 1080p set and another 4k set. Play the same movie at their respective resolutions. If they can tell them apart correctly they get 1 million dollars. If they fail I'll shoot them twice with my boar hunting carbine.

Nobody would want to play that game. Simple.

Because there isn't that much difference to be seen at normal living room couch sitting distances. If you have a PC and sit 2 feet away from your monitor, now that is another matter.


480p vs 1080 would be ok for them though.
parabolee
Member
(04-21-2017, 04:24 PM)
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I would take 1440p and 60fps over 30fps 4K every single time!

That is what I target with every game with my GTX 1080. I start at 1440p max settings and tweak to get 60fps.
rjc571
Junior Member
(04-21-2017, 04:25 PM)
Whichever results in a higher framerate
komaruR
Member
(04-21-2017, 04:35 PM)
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so does anyone know how hard is it to implement checker boarding rather than native 4k?
think its more of a question to the devs.
now, as for checkerboarding or native 4k, which one has a easier time to accommodate the initial gen console specs? both ms and sony wanted games to be compatible with their initial released console. so its more up to the devs to find the easier path to achieve better picture quality with the relative ease of developement time? probably this is for multiplatform games devs and not first party devs.
nekkid
Member
(04-21-2017, 04:37 PM)
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Originally Posted by Pif

I class "many" as the vast majority of people who use a TV. People who can immediately tell if it is a higher res than Full HD are not that common.


Imagine this fun game: I'll sit people in front of a 1080p set and another 4k set. Play the same movie at their respective resolutions. If they can tell them apart correctly they get 1 million dollars. If they fail I'll shoot them twice with my boar hunting carbine.

Nobody would want to play that game. Simple.

Because there isn't that much difference to be seen at normal living room couch sitting distances. If you have a PC and sit 2 feet away from your monitor, now that is another matter.


480p vs 1080 would be ok for them though.

My wife, who used to insist there was no point in paying for HD on our TV package a few years ago because "you can barely tell the difference", actually admitted that 4K looks amazing.

I'd take that bet all day long, as long as it wasn't some half-assed upscaled 2K movie or a tiny screen.

Watch the Revenant in 1080p and then in 4K and tell me you can't see the difference.
Hairsplash
Junior Member
(04-21-2017, 04:44 PM)

Originally Posted by Pif

I have seen 4k TVs running side by side the same movie as a 1080p set. I really had to look closely for a while to be able to tell which one was which. Pretty sure many other random people in there can't even tell a difference.

You you sure that the same movie was not playing on both?...

you are not going to see a worthwhile difference with a 1080p movie.. (but, buy the 4k set... IMO if the set has fancy 1080p processing, the 1080p movie will look smoother/more film like... 2x2 pixels vs one pixel per visual "element "...nyquist theorem... IMO easier to smooth/antialias

I wonder if you had the same movie in bluray 1080p vs the same movie in 4K on netflix...

Fight!. Fight!. 50Mpbs bluray h264 vs 4k 15Mbps h265 10bit Netflix ...

In any case, walk up to a 4k set until you can see the pixels, do the same on the 1080p set and you will soon prefer the 4K set.
Head.spawn
Junior Member
(04-21-2017, 04:48 PM)
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Originally Posted by Pif

I'd really like that this dickwaving 4k fad would die already.

A PS5 sporting upwards of 10TF focused on 1080p60 would be my wet dream. But instead, let's spend resources on a resolution upgrade many people can't even perceive.

If you can't see the difference between 1080p and 4k, you might as well just stick with the standard PS4/XBO then.

Either that or schedule an appointment with an optician.
ghibli99
Member
(04-21-2017, 04:51 PM)
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It really is dependent on the type of game. However, without over-complicating things, I would take checkerboard high/ultra over native 4K medium, all other things being equal (particularly performance). I play on a 43" TV from about 2-2.5 feet away, so the benefits of 4K aren't lost on me, but I really do have to be paying attention to see the negatives of checkerboard rendering... at which point, you have to ask yourself, are you just analyzing or actually *playing*?
Pagusas
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(04-21-2017, 04:54 PM)
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Originally Posted by Pif

I have seen 4k TVs running side by side the same movie as a 1080p set. I really had to look closely for a while to be able to tell which one was which. Pretty sure many other random people in there can't even tell a difference.

Movies and games are not the same thing, Movies tend not to suffer from aliasing and other rendering issues. 4k cleans up a game image to a staggering degree.

Now downsampled 4k to 1080p is also insanely nice and clean. Both are great, both are lightyears better in quality than a strait 1920x1080 game render. Sense migrating to my 1080ti It is very hard to jump back to 1080p gaming on the consoles.
akira1984
Junior Member
(04-21-2017, 05:01 PM)
Assuming they were using a UHD disc on the 4k and a blu-ray in the other and not using a bluray in both. Also depends on the movie. Some early 4k releases are just upscales basically.

Originally Posted by Pif

I have seen 4k TVs running side by side the same movie as a 1080p set. I really had to look closely for a while to be able to tell which one was which. Pretty sure many other random people in there can't even tell a difference.

mrklaw
MrArseFace
(04-21-2017, 05:08 PM)
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Originally Posted by LCGeek

I'm a mildly enthusiast spec gamer after I find a platform I like. If I have the option to get the best and it's within reason I go for it.

I will never settle on resolution. I say this growing up with black and green or monochrome screens displaying next to nothing in pixel count. Non native on fixed pixel screens is abomination that no one should ever be stuck with. Why on earth do some of you gamers claim to be IQ whores and then use checkerboard on TV screen or shitty pc display, both are shit for IQ. If you're not an IQ whore be my guest and ignore the last wannabe sentence I wrote. Simple reasoning is this. What a game renders at get diluted using crap displays or worse some scaling technology. We make fun of those who use non hdtv cables on hdtv and want hdtv, yet it literally is the same thing to do what I mentioned.

If this is preference based than my money needs aren't a concern and there's no reason for me to need checkerboard with high settings.

I would prefer a blowjob from my 5 ideal lobotomized sex slaves.
I would prefer dab and blunts all day.
I would prefer to not get taxed ever.
See where this is going.

valkyre wrong it's like comparing 30fps to 60fps titles. Titles at higher fps rate still are pushing out a ton of data even if the results may not seem like it. Whose bragging anyways we have gaffer with SLI 1080 and there are no shortage of places showing people with titans in a similar config. At that point you could downsample and still have room to spare. Checkboard is garbage dynamic resolution is like smart calling to me but for pixels.It's also gonna be required as long as we have fixed pixel displays instead of stuff like plasma or crt.

Do you not play any PC games that have sub-native resolution alpha effects? Or sub-native resolution reflections? Or sub-native resolution shadows?

All realtime graphics are smoke and mirrors. Efficient use of graphics processing performance is important to get the best results. Checkerboarding at 2160c isn't really sub-native like it would be if you were upscaling from 1440p. And the parts that are filled in are done a lot more intelligently than your usual interpolation methods.

It seems like a smart solution to the limitations of current processors.
WAR recon zero
Member
(04-21-2017, 05:09 PM)
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Is checkerboard possible in Pc?
grandwizard
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(04-21-2017, 07:20 PM)
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Originally Posted by WAR recon zero

Is checkerboard possible in Pc?

You can switch between checkerboard and native on the fly in R6 Siege and Watch Dogs 2 on PC. The difference is very noticeable, especially in motion.
Outrun
Member
(04-21-2017, 07:29 PM)
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Originally Posted by nekkid

I wish MS would get their heads out their ass a bit, and realise native 4K isn't the be-all and end-all. I'd rather Halo 6 was checkerboard and effects/lighting maxxed on Scorpio, for example.

Didnt they leave it up to the devs how beat to utilize that power?

That said, I have a 1080p set, so I would not mind resources going to fancy effects.
NeoMetallix
Member
(04-21-2017, 07:31 PM)
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I prefer the Temporal Injection route Insomniac is using with Ratchet and Spider-Man.
paulogy
Member
(04-21-2017, 07:33 PM)
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I have a 1080p TV, and will for some time.

Give me every bell and whistle you can at 1080p, please.
Liabe Brave
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(04-22-2017, 03:40 AM)
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Originally Posted by FZW

He didnt say that tho, he said 4k native, 4k textures and 16xAF with room to spare (which is exactly what was happening in the demo)

No, the only version of Forza which has been seen with 16xAF also had its other settings turned way up. The base port version was "only" 4K with much-improved textures.

Originally Posted by Caayn

You seem pretty upset at the Forza demo.

If my tiny factual correction reads as upset to you, you may be projecting. Do you really think it's necessary to add congratulatory shibboleths whenever Scorpio is mentioned?
LukasTaves
Member
(04-22-2017, 03:47 AM)
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I guess it will depend on the game, some effects makes little difference using higher settings, while others are more significant.

Having said that I don't think there will be this scenario, Scorpio is likely to have higher resolution and effects quality, even if not 4k native.

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