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KuwabaraTheMan · Apr 17, 2017

sturmdogg said:
And when the show tanks because of the outrage and negative press? Remember the all-female Ghostbusters? Better be safe than sorry. Create a Time Lady show spin off, if it's a hit THEN make the Doctor a woman.

Edit: unless you get Joss Whedon to be the showrunner. So far as I know he's the only person who knows how to make strong female characters interesting without being preachy.

This is idiotic reasoning. If thin skinned bigots were going to stop watching the show because a female actor was cast as the Doctor, then they would have been equally likely to stop watching due to "the gay agenda", or including characters like Martha, or Captain Jack, or Bill. You can't make your casting decisions for the show based around "please, won't somebody think of the bigots?" And "better safe than sorry" is a pretty terrible way to take Doctor Who. It's at its best when it is taking risks.

The show wouldn't tank. For everyone person who posted a hateful rant online and said "I'm never watching again" (but then still watched so they could complain, anyway), you'd get people who were intrigued to see the new direction. You don't think there would be millions of people who would tune in after hearing "the Doctor is a woman now", just out of curiosity to see how it worked?

And Whedon? lol at him being the only person who can make strong female characters.

Fuu · Apr 17, 2017

zeemumu said:
I wasn't really feeling it. They used that nightclub scene a lot but didn't expand on it enough. A montage of them hanging out might've helped.

I thought she assimilated it like The Thing. That seemed to be what she was trying to do to Bill.

I said the exact same thing to a friend, it would have been nice if the club scene had them hanging out or having a normal talk.

8bit · Apr 17, 2017

sturmdogg said:
Edit: unless you get Joss Whedon to be the showrunner. So far as I know he's the only person who knows how to make strong female characters interesting without being preachy.

Or maybe give the job to a woman?

Quick · Apr 17, 2017

8bit said:
Or maybe give the job to a woman?

I don't know, 8bit, women don't know women and only Joss Whedon knows women.

Bluth54 · Apr 17, 2017

There would probably be outrage at a non British showrunner or Doctor.

I don't care who the showrunner is as long as they produce high quality Who.

I do understand why a new showrunner may not want to rock the boat with their first Doctor and go with a safer option for their first Doctor though. If say Moffat had decided to stay for a couple more years I could totally see him going with a female Doctor to replace Capaldi.

peanutbutterlatte · Apr 17, 2017

I'd take any Yank who knew how to cobble together a fairy decent script over Chibnall. Still think we're in for some dark times and people will end up missing Moffat.

Bluth54 · Apr 17, 2017

peanutbutterlatte said:
I'd take any Yank who knew how to cobble together a fairy decent script over Chibnall. Still think we're in for some dark times and people will end up missing Moffat.

Yeah I'm worried that his run will be a big dip quality wise compared to the last 10 seasons but I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

tomtom94 · Apr 17, 2017

So, to overthink things massively - speculation on this whole possible new Doctor leak and in particular one thing Moffat loves to do...

I'm keeping this out of spoiler tags because it's basically just speculation, with the exception of the actor's name since it's still based on an unofficial possible leak, but if you don't want to read here's your warning.

I'm sticking with they haven't cast Chibnall's Doctor yet. BBC have said "no casting decisions have yet been made for series 11" and we can only believe them. Agents leak stories like this to the press all the time, as do the BBC, mainly because it helps them in negotiations. It is entirely possible, though a bit "4D chess", that the BBC leaked this story on purpose to see what the reaction would be.

Reading between the lines, it is possible that they have cast

Marshall

in series 10. I think somebody above pointed out that the BBC's press release is deliberately cryptic in this regard. If true, the leaking of the story to the press suggests it perhaps came from an agent who wants to keep a client in the public eye - obviously, if true, the BBC clearly wants to keep this casting silent, otherwise it'd have been in the Radio Times synopses, but the other camp probably want to show that he has some more work to put on the CV.

What does this have to do with Moffat? Well, one thing Moffat has done a number of times is write characters into what appear to be background roles and are then revealed to be significantly more important (typically villains) - Jim in Sherlock, Missy in Who, etc. Hell, he just did it in Sherlock series 4. The production team also very good at keeping things under wraps - remember when we all thought Maisie Williams was only going to be in one episode?

So here's my theory -

Kris Marshall

is the bad guy for the season and/or the Christmas special. He's going to appear initially in heavy make-up / wig as a background character and then PLOT TWIST he's actually the Doctor's long-lost brother or the Master's long-lost uncle or whatever.

It's even possible that he's genuinely been cast as the 13th Doctor, and the twist is that Chibnall will inherit 14... but that sounds dumb even by Moffat standards, so probably not.

peanutbutterlatte said:
I'd take any Yank who knew how to cobble together a fairy decent script over Chibnall. Still think we're in for some dark times and people will end up missing Moffat.

People used to complain about RTD, now he's gone people praise him and complain about Moffat, can't see the cycle stopping when Chibnall takes over, it's like Zelda games, (n-1) is always the best.

Jason Frost · Apr 17, 2017

For Canadians like me that missed the first episode, it is available on the Space Channel website and with Space on demand too.

peanutbutterlatte · Apr 17, 2017

^RTD and Moffat have both written some excellent episodes though, a compliment that cannot be afforded of Chibnall.

Exterminieren · Apr 17, 2017

peanutbutterlatte said:
^RTD and Moffat have both written some excellent episodes though, a compliment that cannot be afforded of Chibnall.

I'd go to bat for The Power of Three any time you like, and 42 and Dinosaurs on a Spaceship are perfectly fine. Of his Who work, I'd only say the Silurian two-parter was less than good fun, and that suffered from problems way beyond Chibnall's control.

There's also Broadchurch, which, let's face it, is the reason that Chibnall's getting the job.

Tregard · Apr 17, 2017

Capaldu regenerates into 13 for the Christmas Special, and then 13 regenerates into 14 at the end of the Christmas special. Needless to say, Moffat gets the last laugh.

Boem · Apr 17, 2017

Exterminieren said:
There's also Broadchurch, which, let's face it, is the reason that Chibnall's getting the job.

Sometimes I feel like the only person who didn't like Broadchurch (although plenty of people didn't like the second series obviously). It's saved by a very strong cast, and it looks pretty, but it's a very, very standard police/detective drama. Just dull, honestly.

I have the same criticism towards Broadchurch as I do towards his work on Who: it's mostly just executing a standard version of a given formula, without being able to infuse it with a unique sense of personality. It's not offensively bad, but it's never good either. It's just there. Safe, dull, television. You're right though - the popularity of Broadchurch got him the job.

I'm not completely going for doom and gloom yet - a lot of it will depend on the writers he's willing to attract, and going for a more American-style writer's room can help with those problems. But as flawed as Moffat could be, I loved his work dearly. It was always different, unique, and even with the occasional dodgy episode (which you'll find in any era of Who), I'm confident in saying that his time on the show proved to be a golden period. One of the, if not the best showrunner for my tastes. Saying this while understanding he's not for everyone of course, and that's totally fine. But I don't expect 2018 onwards to be nearly as appealing to me.

Never, never forget that Chibnall is the writer who gave us this monstrosity of a story:

We're doomed.

Dalek · Apr 17, 2017

Boem said:
Sometimes I feel like the only person who didn't like Broadchurch (although plenty of people didn't like the second series obviously). It's saved by a very strong cast, and it looks pretty, but it's a very, very standard police/detective drama. Just dull, honestly.

I have the same criticism towards Broadchurch as I do towards his work on Who: it's mostly just executing a standard version of a given formula, without being able to infuse it with a unique sense of personality. It's not offensively bad, but it's never good either. It's just there. Safe, dull, television. You're right though - the popularity of Broadchurch got him the job.

I'm not completely going for doom and gloom yet - a lot of it will depend on the writers he's willing to attract, and going for a more American-style writer's room can help with those problems. But as flawed as Moffat could be, I loved his work dearly. It was always different, unique, and even with the occasional dodgy episode (which you'll find in any era of Who), I'm confident in saying that his time on the show proved to be a golden period. One of the, if not the best showrunner for my tastes. Saying this while understanding he's not for everyone of course, and that's totally fine. But I don't expect 2018 onwards to be nearly as appealing to me.

Never, never forget that Chibnall is the writer who gave us this monstrosity of a story:

We're doomed.

Ugh....don't remind me.

Sir_Crocodile · Apr 17, 2017

Moff was a great writer for RTD but a poor showrunner (and his writing while showrunner suffered, I assume from massive overwork)

Maybe Chibers will turn out to be a crap writer but a great showrunner lol

plagiarize · Apr 17, 2017

Exterminieren said:
I'd go to bat for The Power of Three any time you like, and 42 and Dinosaurs on a Spaceship are perfectly fine. Of his Who work, I'd only say the Silurian two-parter was less than good fun, and that suffered from problems way beyond Chibnall's control.

There's also Broadchurch, which, let's face it, is the reason that Chibnall's getting the job.

Pretty much how I feel too. <3 Power of Three.

And season three of Broadchurch is literally the best thing he's ever written, so he's coming onto Who at a career high.

Boem said:
Sometimes I feel like the only person who didn't like Broadchurch (although plenty of people didn't like the second series obviously). It's saved by a very strong cast, and it looks pretty, but it's a very, very standard police/detective drama. Just dull, honestly.

I have the same criticism towards Broadchurch as I do towards his work on Who: it's mostly just executing a standard version of a given formula, without being able to infuse it with a unique sense of personality. It's not offensively bad, but it's never good either. It's just there. Safe, dull, television. You're right though - the popularity of Broadchurch got him the job.

Generally seen as a step down, granted, season two was far from a standard version of a given formula.

I'm not completely going for doom and gloom yet - a lot of it will depend on the writers he's willing to attract, and going for a more American-style writer's room can help with those problems. But as flawed as Moffat could be, I loved his work dearly. It was always different, unique, and even with the occasional dodgy episode (which you'll find in any era of Who), I'm confident in saying that his time on the show proved to be a golden period. One of the, if not the best showrunner for my tastes. Saying this while understanding he's not for everyone of course, and that's totally fine. But I don't expect 2018 onwards to be nearly as appealing to me.

Never, never forget that Chibnall is the writer who gave us this monstrosity of a story:

We're doomed.

Chris Chibnall can write female characters better than any *man* I can think of. That's what I'm mostly looking forwards to after six seasons of Moffat and the way he writes women.

KuwabaraTheMan · Apr 17, 2017

Yeah, Chibnall wrote Cyberwoman in Torchwood (although I would argue that the script wasn't a major issue there; it was just the horrible design, and that wasn't his fault), but he also wrote some really superb scripts for Torcwhood. Countrycide, Adrift and Fragments were all Chibnall scripts, and all are usually mentioned among the highlights of the first two series.

tomtom94 · Apr 17, 2017

Major question for Chibnall: will he produce 13 episodes or only 12?

Exterminieren · Apr 17, 2017

tomtom94 said:
Major question for Chibnall: will he produce 13 episodes or only 12?

I wouldn't be surprised if it was less than that. While we quibble that Moffat "only" delivers 12, that's still on the high end for a series of British drama.

paradox121 · Apr 17, 2017

Boem said:
Sometimes I feel like the only person who didn't like Broadchurch (although plenty of people didn't like the second series obviously). It's saved by a very strong cast, and it looks pretty, but it's a very, very standard police/detective drama. Just dull, honestly.

I have the same criticism towards Broadchurch as I do towards his work on Who: it's mostly just executing a standard version of a given formula, without being able to infuse it with a unique sense of personality. It's not offensively bad, but it's never good either. It's just there. Safe, dull, television. You're right though - the popularity of Broadchurch got him the job.

You're not alone, count me in as mostly anti-Broadchurch. I mean, I guess to its credit it may as well have been genetically grown in a lab to harvest the biggest audience; middle-class white people, idyllic visually striking setting, two leads who have 'issues' but are still relatable played by well-known acting powerhouses, death of a young child that you can mine for a wealth of emotional beats, a murder mystery where 'everyones a suspect' (but really it'll just be someone implausible), and a cast of characters played by recognisable faces who all have dark secrets that get revealed about two-thirds of the way through.

To Chibnall's credit though, I will say that you can only read so much into his DW episodes / other work. With the ability to do anything with the show, potentially with any actor (depending on how the BBC is feeling) we don't know how much he'll shake things up.

Boem · Apr 17, 2017

paradox121 said:
You're not alone, count me in as mostly anti-Broadchurch. I mean, I guess to its credit it may as well have been genetically grown in a lab to harvest the biggest audience; middle-class white people, idyllic visually striking setting, two leads who have 'issues' but are still relatable played by well-known acting powerhouses, death of a young child that you can mine for a wealth of emotional beats, a murder mystery where 'everyones a suspect' (but really it'll just be someone implausible), and a cast of characters played by recognisable faces who all have dark secrets that get revealed about two-thirds of the way through.

Yeah that reminds me how much that mystery in the first season was bullshit (I gave up early in the second series so I can't comment on much past that). It just kept throwing up new suspects with obvious gaps in their alibis, and in the end the solution turned out to be something completely random, engineered to get the biggest, most surface-level emotional response. For a mystery/detective story, the plot was just cheap and badly constructed through and through.

But you've explained my problems with it better than I ever could. I won't go on with complaining about Broadchurch since this thread isn't even about that.

And I'm willing to be open minded. I won't judge the new season before I see it.

Not · Apr 17, 2017

This gonna be a good season. I can tell.

Gonna get the most out of the best Doctor as possible

And I'll be mad if the 13th Doctor isn't a chick, but if the white guy they inevitably swap Capaldi with is a third as good as he ended up being, eh who gives a shit.

MaKTaiL · Apr 17, 2017

There is a theory that Kris Marshall has been casted as the

Valeyard

.

WrenchNinja · Apr 18, 2017

Fun episode. I like Bill so far.

Thought the water monster was going to be that thing from Water of Mars.

Blader · Apr 18, 2017

MaKTaiL said:
There is a theory that Kris Marshall has been casted as the

Valeyard

.

Moffat said he doesn't like the Valeyard or even understand what it is. But that could also just be a feint to throw people off.

Magwik · Apr 18, 2017

Blader said:
Moffat said he doesn't like the Valeyard or even understand what it is. But that could also just be a feint to throw people off.

Or changed his mind over 3 years

Santiako · Apr 18, 2017

The Valeyard is a terrible concept that I hope never cones back.

Axiom · Apr 18, 2017

Blader said:
Moffat said he doesn't like

the Valeyard

or even understand what it is. But that could also just be a feint to throw people off.

Moffat lies, as well he should, but he doesn't seem prone to reintroduce potentially good ideas that were badly written just to do them right. Not to mention the idea is so fundamentally complicated that it'd probably be better to do an original character that fits the same mold - like

The Dream Lord from Amy's Choice

, without the backstory

Though this could all be because 80s Who ideas are largely ignored.

funkystudent · Apr 18, 2017

MaKTaiL said:
There is a theory that Kris Marshall has been casted as the

Valeyard

.

Just like Missy was gonna be the Rani, right? Some people have been tossing around the Valeyard shit for years. Its never happening.

The best thing I can say about the rumored Marshall casting is I have no strong feelings one way or another. A perfectly OK actor. Maybe a few years older then I expected and not exactly someone squarely targeting the fangirl demo like I expected but not exactly a pick that fills me with excitement and hope. Feels like the BBC talent pool ran a bit dry more then anything.... Like they wanted him to host another generic panel show that didnt work out so now new is Dr Who just so he has something to do.

Kinsei · Apr 18, 2017

MaKTaiL said:
There is a theory that Kris Marshall has been casted as the

Valeyard

.

The theory for every new major male casting is that he's the Valeyard. I wouldn't put too much stock in it.

Jason Frost said:
For Canadians like me that missed the first episode, it is available on the Space Channel website and with Space on demand too.

This also goes for Canadians that don't have cable. If you just wait until the day after an episode airs than you can watch it legally on the Space website.

KuwabaraTheMan · Apr 18, 2017

Blader said:
Moffat said he doesn't like the Valeyard or even understand what it is. But that could also just be a feint to throw people off.

He also spent 15+ years talking about how much he hated the Time Lords and Gallifrey as a concept, but he still decided to bring them back a couple of years ago.

SlipperyFishes · Apr 18, 2017

Axiom said:
Moffat lies, as well he should, but he doesn't seem prone to reintroduce good concepts that were badly written just to do them right.

We don't have The Rani for instance. Though this could all be because 80s Who ideas are largely ignored.

We might eventually. But I'm pretty sure we are going to have a very different reveal:

Missy is Susan - not The Master. She just lied as part of her efforts to help him.

I watched Dark Water again last week and this stood out:

DOCTOR: Two hearts.
MISSY: And both of them yours.
DOCTOR: You're a Time Lord.
MISSY: Time Lady, please, I'm old-fashioned.
DOCTOR: Which Time Lady?
MISSY: The one you abandoned, Doctor. The one you left for dead. Didn't you ever think I'd find my way back?

I wouldn't be surprised if Moffats last hurrah was to make a grand reveal that leads to another redemption (

hence the lingering on the photo of Susan

) of someone abandoned long ago:

However, Susan feels that she has to stay with and take care of her grandfather. The Doctor, realising that Susan is now a grown woman and deserves a future away from him, locks her out of the TARDIS and leaves after a tearful farewell.

Slightly Live · Apr 18, 2017

The

first Time Lord

will be joining

Peter Capaldi

for Doctor Who Christmas special.

Spoiler link from the Mirror.

In the plot,

the 1st Doctor has to help the 12th play out his last mission in the TARDIS. The pair must work together to save home planet Gallifrey by moving it to another dimension.

Fans will discover the close-up shot of Capaldi's eyes from the 50th special, The Day of the Doctor, was actually the start of his own regeneration.

The scene, which was the only glimpse that viewers got of Matt Smith's successor during the entire episode, will be returned to at Christmas as Capaldi transforms into the 13th Doctor.

The Elite · Apr 18, 2017

Slightly Live said:
The

first Time Lord

will be joining

Peter Capaldi

for Doctor Who Christmas special.

Spoiler link from the Mirror.

There has been smoke on this for a while. Hope it's true.

That plot doesn't make much sense though. Isn't that basically what happened in the 50th?

Edit. Nvm. Now it makes sense.

lastplayed · Apr 18, 2017

Saw it last night and found it enjoyable at least. It's nice to have it back on telly.

I actually like the idea of the Doctor and Nardole travelling around getting up to no good. It's refreshing to see a male companion for a change, would be even better if he was the proper co-star, although I know a full on male companion will probably never happen.

Slightly Live · Apr 18, 2017

Proteus said:
There has been smoke on this for a while. Hope it's true.

That plot doesn't make much sense though. Isn't that basically what happened in the 50th?

It's a side story explaining how

the 12th got there, apparently in the middle of his regeneration.

Broken Joystick · Apr 18, 2017

Slightly Live said:
The

first Time Lord

will be joining

Peter Capaldi

for Doctor Who Christmas special.

Spoiler link from the Mirror.

Oh shit that's cool.

Bobby Roberts · Apr 18, 2017

Oh shit, I was wondering if that loose end was going to get tied up in this season.

KuwabaraTheMan · Apr 18, 2017

Slightly Live said:
The

first Time Lord

will be joining

Peter Capaldi

for Doctor Who Christmas special.

Spoiler link from the Mirror.

Fucking Moffat...

We really don't need to see some cheap impersonator pretending to be William Hartnell. Leave the first Doctor alone.

SlipperyFishes · Apr 18, 2017

KuwabaraTheMan said:
Fucking Moffat...

We really don't need to see some cheap impersonator pretending to be William Hartnell. Leave the first Doctor alone.

But they have the perfect setup here:

An_Adventure_in_Space_and_Time__David_Bradley_tells_RT_about_the_role_of_a_lifetime.jpg

Bobby Roberts · Apr 18, 2017

Jesus, Ku.

David Bradley != "cheap impersonator"

KuwabaraTheMan · Apr 18, 2017

Bobby Roberts said:
Jesus, Ku.

David Bradley != "cheap impersonator"

Not a comment on him as an actor. But he isn't Hartnell, and I don't see why we should pretend that he is. He doesn't look much like him, he sounds nothing like him, and he's a completely different type of actor. The first Doctor is beloved because of Hartnell's performance, and I don't have any faith in Bradley being able to capture that (unlike say, Peter Purves in his Companion Chronicles, who can draw on his working with Hartnell and his friendship with him outside of the show to create a loving impression within the confines of a narrated story, but not something that would really work if he was playing the Doctor). I'm not really a fan of recasts in general, and I don't see what the point is in bring "the First Doctor" back played by a different actor. He's "The Doctor as played by William Hartnell".

funkystudent · Apr 18, 2017

Personally holding out hope for one last attempt at explaining why Capaldi was also that dude in pompeii.

Like he was hiding out and also blanked him memory kinda like what happened in Family of Blood or something silly.

SlipperyFishes · Apr 18, 2017

KuwabaraTheMan said:
Not a comment on him as an actor. But he isn't Hartnell, and I don't see why we should pretend that he is. He doesn't look much like him, he sounds nothing like him, and he's a completely different type of actor. The first Doctor is beloved because of Hartnell's performance, and I don't have any faith in Bradley being able to capture that (unlike say, Peter Purves in his Companion Chronicles, who can draw on his working with Hartnell and his friendship with him outside of the show to create a loving impression within the confines of a narrated story, but not something that would really work if he was playing the Doctor). I'm not really a fan of recasts in general, and I don't see what the point is in bring "the First Doctor" back played by a different actor. He's "The Doctor as played by William Hartnell".

I don't see your problem

Richard Hurndall also played the first Doctor after Hartnell passed away. There is prescedent here to allow another actor to fill shoes. Bradley was phenomenal in playing Hartnell that I would believe he could pull the strings together.

Caelus · Apr 18, 2017

funkystudent said:
Personally holding out hope for one last attempt at explaining why Capaldi was also that dude in pompeii.

Like he was hiding out and also blanked him memory kinda like what happened in Family of Blood or something silly.

They already explained it though

Carn82 · Apr 18, 2017

funkystudent said:
Personally holding out hope for one last attempt at explaining why Capaldi was also that dude in pompeii.

Like he was hiding out and also blanked him memory kinda like what happened in Family of Blood or something silly.

Didn't they explain that in an episode? I can recall that it got tackled somewhere; that he chose a familiar face or something.

KuwabaraTheMan · Apr 18, 2017

SlipperyFishes said:
I don't see your problem

Richard Hurndall also played the first Doctor after Hartnell passed away. There is prescedent here to allow another actor to fill shoes. Bradley was phenomenal in playing Hartnell that I would believe he could pull the strings together.

Yes, and Hurndall was dreadful. He didn't sound a thing like Hartnell, and the whole story was a complete mess. They also had John Guillor do a very poor attempt at pretending to be Hartnell in The Day of the Doctor. Both of those attempts were pretty bad (and Moffat was responsible for the second one). Why should I believe this will be any different?

Pretty much everyone agrees that Hurndall's casting in The Five Doctors was a disaster by this point. I can't remember the last time I even saw someone defend it. You can't recapture the magic of Hartnell without Hartnell. I just don't see the point in "bringing back a Doctor" if it's not the original actor. The Doctors are a product of the actor who played them. Peter Davison coming back for Time Crash was cool. Paul McGann getting his regeneration story in Night of the Doctor was cool (even if the script was a bit lame). Tom Baker cameoing in The Day of the Doctor was one of the few bright spots in that episode. But this is just silliness. Recasts are dumb.

funkystudent · Apr 18, 2017

Caelus said:
They already explained it though

Carn82 said:
Didn't they explain that in an episode? I can recall that it got tackled somewhere; that he chose a familiar face or something.

That was about as half assed and throw away as it could have possibly be though.

If they wanted they could do a lot more. If not, no biggy.

TheOMan · Apr 18, 2017

Sooooooo, what happened to the sample that The Doctor took?

I'm wondering if that's gonna show up later in the season.

Blader · Apr 18, 2017

KuwabaraTheMan said:
He also spent 15+ years talking about how much he hated the Time Lords and Gallifrey as a concept, but he still decided to bring them back a couple of years ago.

You also just reminded me that following the 50th, Moffat said the next 50 years of Doctor Who would be about running to, rather than from Gallifrey, only to have the Doctor rediscover Gallifrey three years later. :lol

So, yeah, Moffat lies.

Slightly Live said:
The

first Time Lord

will be joining

Peter Capaldi

for Doctor Who Christmas special.

Spoiler link from the Mirror.

I love the idea, although for some reason I thought they had already revisited

Capaldi's eyes from the 50th

at some point already.

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