• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Greg Capullo (Batman) avoids politics in his work. So, politics found him on Twitter.

Status
Not open for further replies.

cartesian

Member
White people could stand to be talked down to every once in a while
If I wrote "black people deserve to be talked down to on occasion", I would be banned instantaneously and rightly so.

But when someone advocates the very same disrespect, targeted at white people, as an aggregate without qualification, not only is it then acceptable but even somehow ethical. After all - white people, right? Someone needs to take white people down a peg or two. White people are just asking for it.

I despair that the left has driven itself into this increasingly remote territory and I don't think it's a good omen of the things to come.

Yes, of course, black and ethic minority communities are systemically disadvantaged and society must do more to rectify these problems. It is an important and pressing concern and I do recognise it. I accept that the average white people starts from a position of socio-economic advantage not enjoyed by the average black person, and that this is not a fair system, and that it should be challenged.

If you want to change things, the onus is on you as a communicator and a social reformer to persuade the masses to come round to your way of thinking. It's not fair but that's life and we need to adapt to it. The left will never, ever, change things if it seems to be endlessly lecturing down on "white people" about their "white privilege", then accusing them of "white fragility" for reacting against the smug condescension of the lecturers.

If you treat people as aggregates, eventually they will react as aggregates.

This way of speaking about white people comes across as smug, condescending and patronising. It won't win elections. It won't change policies. It won't change people. This movement identified the right problems, and it meant well, but now it's devolving into antagonistic snobbery and the left is eating itself.

This is a political dead-end. The left will go back into the wilderness for a few years until it finds a new way of talking about unfairness that doesn't have the side-effect of aggressively alienating the majority of voters.
 
This way of speaking about white people is a political dead-end. The left will go back into the wilderness for a few years until it finds a new way of talking about unfairness that doesn't centre upon proactively alienating the majority of voters.

More people voted for Clinton than Trump, so it's not "alienating the majority of voters" it's alienating a minority that through the operation of the electoral college was able to exert their influence over the country as a whole. Trump won, but you can't say that a "majority" agrees with your views above.
 

dave is ok

aztek is ok
More people voted for Clinton than Trump, so it's not "alienating the majority of voters" it's alienating a minority that through the operation of the electoral college was able to exert their influence over the country as a whole. Trump won, but you can't say that a "majority" agrees with your views above.
You're kind of proving his point by quote-unquote devolving into antagonistic snobbery.
 

Cyrano

Member
If I wrote "black people deserve to be talked down to on occasion", I would be banned instantaneously and rightly so.

But when someone advocates the very same disrespect, targeted at white people, as an aggregate without qualification, not only is it then acceptable but even somehow ethical. After all - white people, right? Someone needs to take white people down a peg or two. White people are just asking for it.

I despair that the left has driven itself into this increasingly remote territory and I don't think it's a good omen of the things to come.

Yes, of course, black and ethic minority communities are systemically disadvantaged and society must do more to rectify these problems. It is an important and pressing concern and I do recognise it. I accept that the average white people starts from a position of socio-economic advantage not enjoyed by the average black person, and that this is not a fair system, and that it should be challenged.

If you want to change things, the onus is on you as a communicator and a social reformer to persuade the masses to come round to your way of thinking. It's not fair but that's life and we need to adapt to it. The left will never, ever, change things if it seems to be endlessly lecturing down on "white people" about their "white privilege", then accusing them of "white fragility" for reacting against the smug condescension of the lecturers.

If you treat people as aggregates, eventually they will react as aggregates.

This way of speaking about white people comes across as smug, condescending and patronising. To outsiders, it looks like a cult of pity and victimhood. It identified the right problems, and it meant well, but now it's devolving into antagonistic snobbery.

This is a political dead-end. The left will go back into the wilderness for a few years until it finds a new way of talking about unfairness that doesn't centre around aggressively alienating the majority of voters.
White people reacting, especially as an aggregate, is probably the best you could hope for. It means that at the very least they are compelled to act with regards to privilege they previously were unaware of, willingly or unwillingly.

Because right now, the general reaction is nothing at all. And that's a problem. It's only becoming a bigger problem for white people to remain ignorant of, because that ignorance only harms them in the long run (economically now more than ever).
 
More people voted for Clinton than Trump, so it's not "alienating the majority of voters" it's alienating a minority that through the operation of the electoral college was able to exert their influence over the country as a whole. Trump won, but you can't say that a "majority" agrees with your views above.

I voted for Hillary and I agreed with every word that poster wrote. Your mistake is to assume that all who vote with the Democrats are fans of this type of rhetoric.

Also he never said a majority agreed with him.
 

cartesian

Member
More people voted for Clinton than Trump, so it's not "alienating the majority of voters" it's alienating a minority that through the operation of the electoral college was able to exert their influence over the country as a whole. Trump won, but you can't say that a "majority" agrees with your views above.
I wasn't really referring to Trump. I'm European and that my primary frame of reference was the withering of cosmopolitan social democracy in Western Europe.

The issues we're discussing here aren't the be-all-and-end-all for most voters out there; most ordinary voters aren't that obsessed with what a candidate thinks about white privilege because most people don't give politics that much thought. A typical voter on polling day will be influenced by a whole range of concerns - the economy, the job market, schools, healthcare, the charisma of the candidate, what they've read in the newspapers, and so on. I wouldn't claim a majority of voters share my thinking on this topic because a large number of them won't be doing a whole lot of thinking on this topic.

But the problem is more pressing in political circles and especially for political strategists who are tasked with winning power for good causes. I think there is some accumulating evidence, certainly in parts of Western Europe, that this kind of left-wing identity politics, once it becomes politically prominent enough to be visible to ordinary voters, alienates enough of them to be electorally problematic.

Let's put it another way. I'm a white male and I do indeed benefit from a certain level of privilege. I recognise that and I recognise that it's unfair. I'd like to improve society and for all my faults and failings, I am generally one of the good guys. I vote for the good causes, I give to charity, I treat people with respect as best as I humanly can. But I'm not individually blameworthy for my unfair advantage in life and I don't deserve to be disrespected on account of my skin colour.
 
This idea of discrediting someone's opinion just because they are white/certain gender is so stupid and definitely not in line with liberal values. It's one thing pointing out how certain issues effect privileged class less than others. But this "herp derp white people" is so annoying and almost always borderline racist.
 

kmfdmpig

Member
I wonder how much this issue is based on the semantics of the word.

Most people, at least in this thread, recognize that the scales are tipped and therefore the likelihood of success varies based on race, wealth, gender, etc...

Telling someone that benefits from such a system that they are privileged is certainly true, although as some have pointed out in this thread social status is not truly accounted for in this even though it can be one of the most significant sources of privilege. Doing so, however, often seems to them like a diminished of what they've accomplished and leads to push back.

I wonder if there would be more success with the concept if the focus was not on those who are privileged, but those who are not. Would more white/male/straight/cis people understand and sympathize with these concepts if the focus were on the disadvantage that others faced rather than the benefits that white/male/straigt/cis people had? Ultimately it's the same thing as both approaches are focused on the inequality and the differences in opportunity, but they go about it differently. Talking about privilege conjures up images of living in luxury without hard work or overcoming challenges, which people often feel is wrong or leads to them arguing. Making the point that others faced more significant challenges due to systemic issues does not minimize anyone's accomplishments and therefore would likely lead to less argument.

I understand it's no one's responsibility to placate that group, but I wonder if it would be a more successful strategy.
 

BossLackey

Gold Member
Capullo may come with the mindset that he purely draws for escapism and entertainment but Snyder is writing the politics in his Batman stories and Capullo, whether he is aware of it, is assisting with his politics by using his art to visualize it on page.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but that would mean that every single creative work is influenced by politics in some way. If that's the case, then why even talk about it? As someone said earlier, if everything is political, nothing is.
 
Every time someone completes some simple mundane task (in the comfort of their own home) their ancestry isn't bearing down on them demanding to manifest in their creation. I disagree with her premise. If that makes me ignorant, so be it.

But thats exactly how it works. All of us, from me to you to the leader of a country, is affected by their life experiences, culture, etc etc down to the way you urinate to how you eat a sandwich to drawing superheros.

To claim that this isn't true is ignoring the absolute truth of the matter.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but that would mean that every single creative work is influenced by politics in some way. If that's the case, then why even talk about it? As someone said earlier, if everything is political, nothing is.

That doesn't even make sense. If everything is political, everything is.
 

dave is ok

aztek is ok
But thats exactly how it works. All of us, from me to you to the leader of a country, is affected by their life experiences, culture, etc etc down to the way you urinate to how you eat a sandwich to drawing superheros.

To claim that this isn't true is ignoring the absolute truth of the matter.
Sorry, I don't believe that pissing and eating sandwiches is affected by your cultural history.
 

Macam

Banned
You don't think you'd be offended if someone dismissed the validity of your opinion based on your race?

As to the commenter's position, do they have any facts to back up their assumption? Genuinely curious if there is any correlation between race and political engagement.

That's not really what happened, so your first question is moot. As for the second, I'm not really sure what you're looking for there.
 
Sorry, I don't believe that pissing and eating sandwiches is affected by your cultural history.

Do you eat sandwiches without the crust? Thank your parents or friends who influenced you to do that. They were influenced by their local culture, etc etc

You're being inane on purpose. Stop it.
 
I believe many people think of "being political" as commenting on current issues.

I do think this is part of the issue here.

We're talking about drawing pictures of superheroes here. You can easily choose to not interject politics into it.

Every time someone completes some simple mundane task (in the comfort of their own home) their ancestry isn't bearing down on them demanding to manifest in their creation. I disagree with her premise. If that makes me ignorant, so be it.

As for the nature of drawing pictures of superheroes, a poster has already talked about how your worldview and perspective affect that act.

As an artist, and a comic book artist to boot, I have to say that yes, the way I draw a character, whether I mean it to or not, will make a statement. I just finished a four issue mini-series, The Gamma Gals this past April, and I thought really long and hard before I even wrote the script about the type of comic I was making (a superhero series about three teenage girls who gain superpowers), and what I wanted to say with it.

While my goal is always to entertain, I also have to be cognizant of how people will receive that entertainment. I have characters that are black (like me!), white, asian, Mexican, disabled, and LGBT (the three leads, actually). I thought about how the portrayal of those characters would be seen by my readers, and especially readers that could possibly be from those groups. Did it bother me that I had to be more sensitive and aware? No. Why would it? It made the creation of the comic more engaging. I feel like my diverse cast of characters are respectful, and I hope that they don't offend. But if they do, I want to be told why, so I can work to improve it.

My job is to portray the worlds I create as best as I can. But that also means I'm going to be representing a lot of people in some way, shape or form. Whether it's a Muslim shopping in the background, or an overweight person fighting crime (one of my heroines struggles with her weight, for example).

As a black man growing up a fan of comics and superheroes (enough to want to actually become a comic book artist himself), I have to say I was always dismayed at the lack of high profile comic book characters I saw in mainstream comics. I couldn't afford many comic books growing up (another factor that drove me to the profession; I subscribed to the philosophy, "If you can't afford comics, make some yourself!"), so most of my exposure to characters like Batman, Superman, and Spider-Man, were from cartoons and maybe the occasional Superman/Batman book I saved up for and bought in Walgreen. It wasn't lost on me how incredibly white those series were. From the leads, to the supporting cast.

I've mentioned it a million times on NeoGAF, but in school, I was told by my classmates that I couldn't play Batman, Superman, Spider-Man, or the Flash with them, because they were white, and I was black. I could play the bank robber or gang member. I didn't know who John Stewart was. I didn't know who Black Lightning was. I had no idea Black Panther existed. So I grew up, a child of the 80's, thinking that there were no heroes in my favorite genre of all time that looked like me. That had a profound effect on me growing up. It didn't help that non-superhero themed television reinforced the notion that blacks were often the buffoon, criminal, or incompetent as well. Rarely the lead. Rarely the hero. But there was probably one episode where they'd throw the black sidekick a bone and have him do something heroic while the white leads looked on and cheered.

This also had an effect on the very comics I would create myself. I could show you folders and folders of drawings and comic book pages of characters I created. Over 90% of them were white, and the minorities and women were almost always supporting characters, sidekicks, and love interests. That's the effect the white comic book world had on this young black artist.

I'm sad to say that I didn't actually realize I was doing this until I was in my early 20's, and I'd have conversations with my then girlfriend, now wife about representation of minorities and women in comics. As a white woman, her perspective was interesting in a lot of ways, especially when I realized how similar the marginalization of women in American entertainment is to the marginalization of minorities. Those conversations eventually gave birth to the germ that would become The Gamma Gals.

Having to consider what my art is saying to its intended audience is one of the best things to happen to my thinking and creative methods. It's opened up my mind creatively, in that I no longer default to "white male protagonist" when I sit down with this hot new idea that popped into my head while reading the news, or a book, or listening to music, or watching television. And then, when I sit down to draw that protagonist, I don't just think "super model attractive with a perfect figure." It's made my art better. It's made the worlds I create more interesting and feel more real. My backdrops aren't populated solely by perfect looking white people anymore. My leads don't always look like they stepped out of GQ or Cosmo. Sure, those characters still exist and appear in my books (as do lots of white people), but they aren't the sole thing any longer.

I'm glad my work can be criticized. I'm glad that, if the message my art is sending upsets people, that they will open their mouths and tell me, so I can better myself. As someone who's had his artwork looked at and critiqued by J. Scott Campbell, Joe Madureira, Humberto Ramos, and countless others, I have a thick skin when it comes to criticism. Getting overly defensive about your work doesn't help you improve. Greg opened himself up to criticism the moment he posted his comment on Twitter. That's how social media works. He clearly wasn't prepared to engage in the discussion, so I have to wonder, why bring it up in the first place? Nothing I post on my Twitter, Facebook, Tumblr, Instagram, etc, are things I have no desire to discuss. If I don't want to be political, I won't post something political. Being apolitical is still a stance, and it's going to open up discussion. Greg did what a lot of people this election cycle did, and tried to toe a middle ground. That's totally in his rights to do, but it's not going to keep people who lean on either side of the issues to stay quiet.

As a huge fan of Greg's work, I have to say I'm incredibly disappointed in his response. I'm not surprised by the response, but disappointed.

I enjoy having these uncomfortable discussions. Maybe it's because I'm one of the people affected by systemic and institutional racism, and how it has shaped my life, self esteem, confidence, and overall psychology. Calling a white person a white person, and pointing out that there is an inherent privilege afforded to that white person by virtue of being white, isn't racist. It's a statement of fact. That's not some kind of aggressive attack against white people. Nor is it calling a white person that benefits from said privilege a racist when pointing it out.

And I have pointed out how creators of color or other genders have to morph to align with a status quo or be denigrated. They lack the ability to just be there as "apolitical" in the terminology of this thread.
 

PopeReal

Member
My fellow straight white males remain so sensitive that they can't even listen and think for a few fucking minutes before going into meltdown mode.
 
As a black man I will never not find this blame white people for everything under the sun stupid as fuck. Privilege definitely exist but using it as a tool to shut people down is the same as changing an argument you can't win into one you can by reducing the person you're arguing with to a caricature.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom