I just read a conversation on Facebook about this, want to know how GAF feels about this. I want to keep this as open ended as possible, so the question is basically what's in the title - obviously, cultures learn from each other, and they are constantly changing - when do culture's appropriate other cultures? Where is the line drawn? Can you give examples?
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Where's the line between cultural cross pollination and cultural appropriation?
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Ray Wonder
Founder of the Wounded Tagless Children
I've always struggled to see where this line is as well.
Zeus Molecules
illegal immigrants are stealing our air
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0060528184/?tag=neogaf0e-20
John Leland wrote a whole book on this in regards to entertainment and in the end he was basically guessing and bullshitting. There is no way to tell outside usually the audience response and what forces shaped the end result to begin with.
The closest I can come is if its being commercialized its usually appropriation to some regard if its not done for the love of money then its more likely to be some form of cross pollination. Even then that's just a broad definition that can't really answer the question.
Add globalization and the internet and its even harder as the creation of new from the old is becoming easier and quicker.
John Leland wrote a whole book on this in regards to entertainment and in the end he was basically guessing and bullshitting. There is no way to tell outside usually the audience response and what forces shaped the end result to begin with.
The closest I can come is if its being commercialized its usually appropriation to some regard if its not done for the love of money then its more likely to be some form of cross pollination. Even then that's just a broad definition that can't really answer the question.
Add globalization and the internet and its even harder as the creation of new from the old is becoming easier and quicker.
One and done. I'm sure there's a fluffier way to put it involving dominant cultures and punching down and all that bollocks.
Hah, tell that to the minorities that act "white".
It becomes appropriation when the originator of said culture is disrespected or forgotten. Anything else I would perceive as talking points or plain jealousy.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
My impression was that it was appropriation when the new community is praised for the particular cultural act, but the old one condemned. That's why it is appropriation/taking away. If both are praised equally, that's just acculturation.
When you borrow from another culture, but you maintain a hatred for or a disdain of that culture, that's appropriation. And when you literally try to revise history or pretend that you actually invented the things that you got from another culture, that's wrong.
Black Americans invented every major form of music in the US. But you wouldn't know this because it's been whitewashed. Many of the hit songs from the 1950's and 60's were white artists, stealing the work of black artists, and doing a worse job with the music! Elvis stole black dance moves and music, performed them for white America, and never credited the source, for instance.
And it's not just limited to music and dance. Fashion, slang, even food, all stolen from us. But a lot of times it's warped to fit the mainstream. Full lips and big butts are desirable in white women. Black women with these traits are still shown as less attractive. Tanned skin, another example, or certain hairstyles.
You can have cultural cross pollination in a respectful way. That's not what we have here in America, not between black culture and white culture, at least.
Black Americans invented every major form of music in the US. But you wouldn't know this because it's been whitewashed. Many of the hit songs from the 1950's and 60's were white artists, stealing the work of black artists, and doing a worse job with the music! Elvis stole black dance moves and music, performed them for white America, and never credited the source, for instance.
And it's not just limited to music and dance. Fashion, slang, even food, all stolen from us. But a lot of times it's warped to fit the mainstream. Full lips and big butts are desirable in white women. Black women with these traits are still shown as less attractive. Tanned skin, another example, or certain hairstyles.
You can have cultural cross pollination in a respectful way. That's not what we have here in America, not between black culture and white culture, at least.
When someone feels like their culture is being treated like a weird museum/zoo/freak show exhibit.
I remember reading Japanese stores playing black people to stand outside their stores and go "Yo yo yo!". Have no idea where I read that but if it's something that happens then that's problematic right?
Edit: You've got a major chip on your shoulder SmokyDave.
I fixed that to make it accurate. I hope you don't mind.
How is that an example of a culture taking on aspects of another culture?
The line is drawn by angry mobs.
The angry mobs depends on the cultural atmosphere and chance factors like how many vapid idiots latch onto a cause celebre*.
*note that this doesn't say that cultural appropriation is a line drawn by vapid idiots - only that they can contribute towards getting arbitary lines drawn... as in the case of asian americans getting outraged about the kimono cultural exchange.
The angry mobs depends on the cultural atmosphere and chance factors like how many vapid idiots latch onto a cause celebre*.
*note that this doesn't say that cultural appropriation is a line drawn by vapid idiots - only that they can contribute towards getting arbitary lines drawn... as in the case of asian americans getting outraged about the kimono cultural exchange.
Kenshin001
Member
I'd say that is pretty accurate, though I live in Japan and many celebrate Christmas without having the faintest clue what it's about and that to me is cultural appropriation.
xKilltheMx
Member
The real one and done.
This has nothing to do with white people doing it (like smokey and whoever else would say) it has to do with a double standard.
Idiots.
I know. Do you think you haven't?
FTFY
xKilltheMx
Member
This on the other hand is not (unless the japanese are celebrating it and then condemning others who do at the same time.)
I'd agree on it being extreme. Though in america this is more the case than not from my observations.
Ray Wonder
Founder of the Wounded Tagless Children
That seems a little extreme for the cases I've seen people talking about cultural appropriation. So by your definition it doesn't really happen that often. Especially nowadays, and in hip hop.
DragonSworne
Banned
It's cultural appropriation if you don't live in the location of the culture or interact with people from that culture to sustain a community.
For example, the character Tom Cruise played that become a Samurai is not cultural appropriation. Timmy in suburban Atlanta becoming a samurai after watching the movie is.
For example, the character Tom Cruise played that become a Samurai is not cultural appropriation. Timmy in suburban Atlanta becoming a samurai after watching the movie is.
So I have a few definitions now, but I feel like I'm not understanding certain parts. One common point is that if the original culture is being disrespected/hated by the appropriating culture. How is this tracked? Is it on a case by case, ie, if the artist borrowing/appropriating hates the culture they take from? Or if the "culture" they belong to does? And how would we know which culture that person belongs to? Ethnicity? Region? I think I want this to be formulaic, but I'm realizing that it really isn't.
dave is ok
aztek is ok
No one takes something from a culture they hate. Artists like Elvis were given mountains of shit for playing "black" music when they started, but they loved the culture and the music.
Nowadays they're almost all rewritten as racists. Here's an op-ed from a while back wondering how Elvis came to be known as one.
Nowadays they're almost all rewritten as racists. Here's an op-ed from a while back wondering how Elvis came to be known as one.
Making the store/club in question seem 'hip' and 'urban' by having black people act stereotypically African-American outside of them.
Plus I think the Washington Redskins logo is another classic example.
Another one that's always left me feeling incredibly uncomfortable is when Bollywood films film in Australia or Europe and have a dance scene in which there's a ton of random white girls used as the backup dancers behind the main hero/heroine. There's a hell of lot of weird stuff to unpack there let me tell you.
Unfathomability
Neo Member
Appropriation always makes me think of Marie Antoinette playing a milkmaid in her little pretend-farm on the palance grounds. Going "look at me, I'm a peasant!" while wearing silk and using butterchurns made of gold.
I guess it is taking the signifiers of a culture without engaging in the culture itself - symbols or aesthetics "rejigged" or used to evoke a sense of "otherness".
I guess it is taking the signifiers of a culture without engaging in the culture itself - symbols or aesthetics "rejigged" or used to evoke a sense of "otherness".
tkscz
Member
Was about to bring up Japan as I've noticed they do it with multiple cultures.
Honestly, if I were to say something were appropriation, it would be to take something from a culture and claim it as your own, without crediting or giving respects to the culture it was taken from. I can't agree with the idea that "it's when white people do it", because European culture as been appropriated by other cultures around the world. And so have African cultures by more than just white people. But I assume GAF is referring to the US only.
Out of curiosity, is this a case of "leave our shit alone until your majority gets your shit together" sort of thing? Or if I exhibit some sort of acknowledgemnt and/or respect for the origin, can I then write a silly Vanity Fair article about "afros"? Is that distinction still up for discussion or generally agreed on?
I agree completely.
White people have invented an enormous number of things that other people and cultures use every day. Penicillin. Refrigeration. Automobiles. Fast food.
And it's totally cool that other peoples use these things or copy these things and I'm glad they do. But imagine if some of these things -- for instance, fast food -- were ridiculed and loathed when white people were starting them up. Then Black businessmen started fast food chains, and suddenly everyone agrees that fast food is awesome and cool.
That is the part of "cultural appropriation" that people don't like: the tendency for Asian or Black or Indian (or whomever) culture to be considered stupid or uncouth until white people try them. It's fine -- great, even -- that some white people might wear traditionally black hairstyles, except for the fact that these hairstyles were considered gross or profesionally inappropriate until white people started wearing them.
I don't make an interesting discussion on generic terms into a racial issue. Most of the examples I thought of were Japanese in nature and so this side tangent of "Oh poor us white people" is just weird.
teruterubozu
Member
Babies
But it never gets counted as "cultural appropriation".
If I were to say someone using something made by white people were engaging in cultural appropriation of my white culture I would instantly be labeled racist.
Kenshin001
Member
Nobody really does that though do they, I mean claims it as their own? The Japanese example they are just taking part of Western culture and transplanting it into their own without understanding its significance in the original culture. You could say the same thing about the Native American headdresses worn at music festivals. It doesn't bother me that Japanese read Western books or listen to Western music, that is cross pollination, but it bothers me they adopt this custom that has deep religious and cultural roots and turn it into a charade.
Imagine you have a friend who comes up with a phrase that he thinks is appropriate -- new slang, in other words. Lots of friend circles have this sort of insider lingo, right?
And that's fine and cool. Your friend invents some phrase, everybody laughs, and everybody starts using it. That's the totally fine part of cultural appropriation.
Now imagine, instead, that your friend creates a phrase and everybody acts like it's not cool, that it's tacky or lame. But then a few weeks later, another friend uses the same phrase, and everybody laughs and the phrase catches on and this "other friend" is considered cool and clever.
That second example is what people don't like when they complain "cultural appropriation."
And that's fine and cool. Your friend invents some phrase, everybody laughs, and everybody starts using it. That's the totally fine part of cultural appropriation.
Now imagine, instead, that your friend creates a phrase and everybody acts like it's not cool, that it's tacky or lame. But then a few weeks later, another friend uses the same phrase, and everybody laughs and the phrase catches on and this "other friend" is considered cool and clever.
That second example is what people don't like when they complain "cultural appropriation."
Warm Machine
Member
No one owns culture. It is in the public domain of the human experience. It is meant to be displayed and shared. Society the world over has benefitted from this for thousands of years.
Japanese people do it to everyone including white people ALL KINDS of white people. What they do to traditional Christian symbology is just, sometimes, man.
Christmas usually has no significance in western culture anymore. It's just an exercise in materialism that has largely become a secular holiday. At least where I live.
tkscz
Member
You know what, I can agree with this.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Can you name something a) white people and only white people did for a long time, which was b) criticised by black people, which c) has been adopted by the black community, but d) is still only praised by black people when black do it (and conversely condemned when white people do it).
If you can, you've found cultural appropriation from white people. I can't think of anything at all.
I absolutely agree that would be cultural appropriation of white culture if this were to occur -- I just think it's extremely unlikely to occur given the current landscape. But if it did happen, it would be cultural appropriation. If, for instance, white people invented a new genre of film, and most people ignored it and thought it was dumb, and then Asian people started making films in this new genre and then everybody suddenly discovered this genre is awesome and cool and the genre takes off, that would be cultural appropriation.
In the western world, however, it's very unlikely for something invented by white people to be un-cool until other ethnicities do it.
theepicoftyler
Member
Cultural appropriation is gross because in a lot of cases it's the majority culture taking something and giving it like the "Non-minority seal of approval". Something that was seen as outside of the norm or counter culture is all of a sudden accepted because someone outside of that culture said ti was okay.
Metaphoreus
This is semantics, and nothing more
I don't think that's the same thing. "Acting white" is better characterized as "cultural abdication." The offense is that the person isn't acting in accordance with a culture identified with a group of which the person is a member. But cultural appropriation is when someone adopts some feature typically identified with a group of which the person is not a member.
Frankly, both seem anti-progressive. At a time when even traditionally immutable personal characteristics such as gender are viewed as subject to alteration, how can it possibly be wrong to adopt the social dress, speech, music, or mannerisms of groups in which you are not a member, but with which you nevertheless identify?
So in this case, who is "everybody"? Is the other friend someone who thought it was uncool? Or did he think it was always cool? Or does it matter how he thinks? Is everybody the majority of people? Loud minority? The incorporeal masses? This is where I have trouble
T
Transhuman
Unconfirmed Member
WHAT. Ernest Duchesne wasn't white, he was French. I wouldn't use a single thing made by those mold-growing snail-slurpers.
The issue is when there is some distance between those who found the new trend tacky or lame and those who appreciate the new trend and want to try it out for themselves. In this case you end up with a person who likes something and wants to use it to express themselves being shamed for it because of other people who this person had nothing to do with who mocked the trend.
This pretty much. People put far too much stock in culture itself, especially since nobody gets to choose which one they're born into.
This is also accurate.
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