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Races...do they exist?

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{Mike}

Banned
I remember a year and a half ago in one of my college classes, we had this interesting topic about races, if they exist or not. Our teacher came to the conclusion they don't and are basically a misconception of how we see each other. But I couldn't settle this in my mind, as there is a wide array of caracteristics common to the humans and the animals, though we admit there are animal races and, in most of the cases, human races are seen as a way to disparage blacks to white, by exmple.

The point of this topic is, considering there are stronger, more intelligent, more beautiful and more anything people on Earth, do you think the concept of races is valid when it comes down to humanity as a whole? There's also the more noticable differences between humans, such as skin color that can determine - or not - races. I'm more saying they do exist and we just don't use the term because it can offend some people. And I don't want to start a war between nations either.
 

Boogie

Member
Yes, yes they do.

Daytona%20500.jpg
 

bjork

Member
They exist visually... but otherwise, not necessarily. Though, you've got people accused of acting white or trying to be black or having yellow fever, etc. But all it really is is voluntary segregation by the masses, and the people who choose to see past that shit and rise above, do so.
 

GilloD

Banned
Nothing "exists" in that sense. Do colors? Do makes and models of cars? They're just catagories to fit things into. Of course races "exist", even if it's just a tidy mode of sorting information.

Are there differences between "races" great enough to justify the black/white/whatever we've assigned them? I'd say so, but then again, so would scientific racism
 
{Mike} said:
I remember a year and a half ago in one of my college classes, we had this interesting topic about races, if they exist or not. Our teacher came to the conclusion they don't and are basically a misconception of how we see each other. But I couldn't settle this in my mind, as there is a wide array of caracteristics common to the humans and the animals, though we admit there are animal races and, in most of the cases, human races are seen as a way to disparage blacks to white, by exmple.

The point of this topic is, considering there are stronger, more intelligent, more beautiful and more anything people on Earth, do you think the concept of races is valid when it comes down to humanity as a whole? There's also the more noticable differences between humans, such as skin color that can determine - or not - races. I'm more saying they do exist and we just don't use the term because it can offend some people. And I don't want to start a war between nations either.

It's a very complex issue.


That will quickly devolve in this thread.
 

malek4980

Rosa Parks hater
Races are not genetically discrete groups, but researchers have used genetic information to group individuals into clusters. Researchers have been able to distinguish five different groups of people whose ancestors were typically isolated by oceans, deserts or mountains: sub-Saharan Africans; Europeans and Asians west of the Himalayas; East Asians; inhabitants of New Guinea and Melanesia; and Native Americans. Researchers have also been able to identify subgroups within each region that usually corresponded with each member's self-reported ethnicity.

many human genetic variations tend to cluster by racial groups -- that is, by people whose ancestors came from a particular geographic region. Skin color itself is not what is at issue -- it's the evolutionary history indicated by skin color.
link
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
You mean beyond superficial differences? There are some here and there, but even then not along the same lines as skin color. Genetically speaking, skin color is just an indicator of indigenous geographical latitude. Two people in different parts of Africa are as different as an African and a European are from each other.

Race, as it is commonly used, is entirely cultural.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
happyfunball said:
The only problem is that we think we are special because we are humans and not animals.

If we were animals, we would be classified as different species or sub-species.
No. Species is a matter of genetic exclusivity, not appearance, as all varieties of the house cat are in the same species.
 

pestul

Member
happyfunball said:
The only problem is that we think we are special because we are humans and not animals.

If we were animals, we would be classified as different species or sub-species.
Good God.. we would so not be classified as different species. That would be like saying, my tabby cat is a different species than my black cat.

Edit: uncanny we both chose cats :lol
 

JayDubya

Banned
happyfunball said:
The only problem is that we think we are special because we are humans and not animals.

If we were animals, we would be classified as different species or sub-species.

The domestic dog is a subspecies of Canis lupus, Canis lupis familiaris.

Different "breeds" of Canis lupis familiaris look vastly different but none of them are considered so distinct as to call them different in terms of phylogeny.

The reason I use this example is that clearly you can see the difference between a terrier and a great dane, and their differences are far more obvious and pronounced than that of a caucasian and an african. If they're not separated, it stands to reason that your premise is pretty faulty.

Especially given that in the above example, the sheer size differential almost makes the two entirely reproductively isolated.
 

sammy

Member
happyfunball said:
The only problem is that we think we are special because we are humans and not animals.

If we were animals, we would be classified as different species or sub-species.

a species is mostly defined by the fact that they can't breed with different species ---- if this were the case Mulattoes would bleep out of existence this very moment. Also, we wouldn't all be categorized as Homo Sapians the same way Neandertal were a different species (Homo neanderthalensis, and no, we couldn't breed with them either)

a better comparison between races of human would be 'breeds' ---- but we use "races" because 'breed' implies that the ancestry was manipulated:

"breed
A group of organisms having common ancestors and certain distinguishable characteristics, especially a group within a species developed by artificial selection and maintained by controlled propagation. "

if one day we developed/found a race of people that couldn't produce offspring with other races of Homo Sapiens --- then we might have to consider them an alternate species.
 
sammy said:
a species is mostly defined by the fact that they can't breed with different species ---- if this were the case Mulattoes would bleep out of existence this very moment. Also, we wouldn't all be categorized as Homo Sapians the same way Neandertal were a different species (Homo neanderthalensis, and no, we couldn't breed with them either)

a better comparison between races of human would be 'breeds' ---- but we use "races" because 'breed' implies that the ancestry was manipulated:

"breed
A group of organisms having common ancestors and certain distinguishable characteristics, especially a group within a species developed by artificial selection and maintained by controlled propagation. "

if one day we developed/found a race of people that couldn't produce offspring with other races of Homo Sapiens --- then we might have to consider them an alternate species.

.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
Modern humans are already part of the sub species "homo sapiens sapiens". While homo sapiens are around 250,000 years old, the family tree for the world's population is around 50,000 years old.

happyfunball: More accurately, what makes two populations different species is when they can't or won't interbreed. Yes, some of this IS arbitrary, but whether or not two organisms can physically produce offspring isn't very relevant if they never do and their gene pools remain segregated.

Please, read up on taxonomy. :p
 

Gantz

Banned
Dedalus said:
There is only one human race, but many cultures within it.

IAWTP. I'm so sick of people using the word "race" and "racism" to describe different cultures and desparities between them.
 
Hitokage said:
Modern humans are already part of the sub species "homo sapiens sapiens". While homo sapiens are around 250,000 years old, the family tree for the world's population is around 50,000 years old.

happyfunball: More accurately, what makes two populations different species is when they can't or won't interbreed. Yes, some of this IS arbitrary, but whether or not two organisms can physically produce offspring isn't very relevant if they never do and their gene pools remain segregated.

Please, read up on taxonomy. :p
.
 

Guy

Member
A very large proportion of the scientific community think that races exist, but it's a taboo subject like the fact that homosexuality can be cured. I read many books about the subject, and if you can find Races And Intelligence by Jean Pierre Hebert (it's a pseudonyme used by 4 scientists who would like to remains anonyms) they point out the differences in a psychologics, genetics, anthropologist, socoliogist, psychiatric view etc. There is many more recents studys about the subject available on Internet, espacialy Race, Evolution and Bahavior by J. Philippe Rushton's of the university of Western Ontario. Here's a link http://www.harbornet.com/folks/theedrich/JP_Rushton/Race.htm.
 

Tarazet

Member
IIRC from the discussions in sociology and linguistics classes (feel free to take with a grain of salt): scientifically, no. Socially, yes. And having said that, I think we can all agree that this wouldn't be the first thing that people have subscribed to with no basis in science.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
sonarrat said:
I think we can all agree that this wouldn't be the first thing that people have subscribed to with no basis in science.

Not even close to the first thing...
 

AntoneM

Member
to beat a dead horse, genetically there is no difference between caucasian, latin, african...

however, rascism still exists.
 
As was said Scientifically one can identify genetic variation that can define races, but the ways that we define races socially they do not exist. You can sort out widespread populations (ie sub-saharan african from European), but not necessarily neighboring populations. Our common determinations of race, such as black, white, asian, and latino in the US don't really jive with genetic determinations.
 

aceface

Member
Back in the 1800's different nationalities in Europe were considered to be different races, like the French race, English race, German race etc. There was also racism on this basis like the Irish race was generally considered inferior to the English in lots of newspapers of the time (like in some of the cartoons in "Punch" where the Irish were depicted as apes). Anyways, the answer is no, races are a cultural construct.
 

Tarazet

Member
BigGreenMat said:
As was said Scientifically one can identify genetic variation that can define races, but the ways that we define races socially they do not exist. You can sort out widespread populations (ie sub-saharan african from European), but not necessarily neighboring populations. Our common determinations of race, such as black, white, asian, and latino in the US don't really jive with genetic determinations.

The most convincing suggestion (though I don't believe my sociology teacher was a totally credible scientist) was that races vary more within themselves than between each other. If that's sound - and it probably is - then the whole concept of racial 'variation' is a sham.
 

Stele

Holds a little red book
It 'can' vary more within the race than between, but that's the exception, not the rule. So it's not a sham.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
sonarrat said:
The most convincing suggestion (though I don't believe my sociology teacher was a totally credible scientist) was that races vary more within themselves than between each other. If that's sound - and it probably is - then the whole concept of racial 'variation' is a sham.
No, that's entirely accurate. It's what the forementioned SciAm article mentions.
 
sonarrat said:
The most convincing suggestion (though I don't believe my sociology teacher was a totally credible scientist) was that races vary more within themselves than between each other. If that's sound - and it probably is - then the whole concept of racial 'variation' is a sham.
.
 

Pochacco

asking dangerous questions
White people drive like this *do do do do*
And black people drive like this *bo ba bo ba*

So yes.
 

Stele

Holds a little red book
happyfunball said:
The genetic differences are not enough for a taxonomic classification, though.
But they exist, they're conspicuous, and just because they doesn't exist a taxonomic classification now does not mean there won't be one in the future. This 'race' this thing could like the nurture/nature argument or the French Kingdom/Revolution/Empire thing, it's a pendulum that swings to one extreme or the other once in a while.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
Stele said:
But they exist, they're conspicuous, and just because they doesn't exist a taxonomic classification now does not mean there won't be one in the future.
And in 50 to 100 thousand years be sure to update us on that. :p
 

Takuan

Member
Race as applied to humans is a social construct. We're all homosapiens, people! Our differences are largely cultural/superficial. Let's all make babies together.
 

jgkspsx

Member
{Mike} said:
But I couldn't settle this in my mind, as there is a wide array of caracteristics common to the humans and the animals, though we admit there are animal races and, in most of the cases, human races are seen as a way to disparage blacks to white, by exmple.
Genetically speaking, no, "race" is not a meaningful concept. We're all virtually identical in our genes.

Cultures certainly have a large impact on perception of beauty, behavior, modes of thought, etc. "Race" does not.
 

MrSardonic

The nerdiest nerd of all the nerds in nerdland
this issue has been dealt with for years - check out the wealth of literature in social anthropology and biological anthropology dealing with this. Since so many of you are obsessed with genetics, it has been shown that the genetic difference "within populations" is greater than that "between populations". There is no biological, social, geographic (etc) basis for separating humans into "races". Therefore the issue of "races" is an issue of power.
 

pnjtony

Member
Ask any anthropology student and they will confirm that there is a different bone structure between asians blacks whites and so on. It's more than skin deep. There are different races.
 
Pochacco said:
White people drive like this *do do do do*
And black people drive like this *bo ba bo ba*

So yes.

:lol

"When white peoples power goes out they PANIC
When black peoples power goes out they PLAN IT"
 

Blackace

if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
Hitokage said:
Race, as it is commonly used, is entirely cultural.

no matter what people think, this is how English works! However, we could use the American term "those people"
 
MrSardonic said:
this issue has been dealt with for years - check out the wealth of literature in social anthropology and biological anthropology dealing with this. Since so many of you are obsessed with genetics, it has been shown that the genetic difference "within populations" is greater than that "between populations". There is no biological, social, geographic (etc) basis for separating humans into "races". Therefore the issue of "races" is an issue of power.
.
 

Guy

Member
Why the races in three specific groups are gathered (Caucasian, Négroides and Mongoloides) it's because they are the three dominant groups and that even if there is certain differences between the members of the groups, one can always gathered with a majority of criteria.

The weight of the brain, differences in the size of the skull or ankle, the size of the muscles (see swimming competitions), stage of development , facility or the difficulty with which certain chemical substances are secreted, the position on the scale r-K etc.

When you take each one of these factors there, and that you gather them with the other individuals at whom the results are similar, see the same, you obtains three large classifications. That you call that races or Polo clubs, who cares, it remains that it there a group there inside where everyone is white, a group where everyone is black and a group where everyone is Asian.
 
Does race exist? Yes and no.

Yes, in the sense that there are obvious differences between populations. A Black man is not a White man, and you can tell. To deny the reality of phenotypal differences between people from different regions in the world is as foolish as denying that red and green are different colors on the color spectrum.

No, in the sense that when you go from green to red on the color spectrum, there is no sudden dividing line where it's red on this side and green on that. Green slowly turns orange, and orange begrudgingly gives way to red. Race works the same way. On its most basic level, it's simply natural differentiation by distance. If you go from one person to the next from Nigeria to Finnland, you won't notice any big differences along the way, but when you compare the Finn to the Nigerian at the end of the journey, you will see the difference right away.

So, does race exist? Yes and no.

Human genetic and physical differentiation is subject to natural drift, bottle neck/founder effects, as well as environmental and sexual selection. (For a definition of these terms, please refer to the definitions.)

All of the world's sharp differences can be accounted for by the following:
1. Differentiation as a function of distance.
2. Natural barriers (deserts, mountain ranges, oceans, glaciers, etc.) also has the same effect, but without the result of physically intermediate populations.
3. Sudden expansion of populations, which absorb and or wipe out intermediate types.
4. Different lifestyles which prevent intermarraige: hunter/gatherer vs. farmer vs. herder, different social classes (i.e. India's caste system), different fields or interests (computer geeks marrying computer geeks ... thus the increase of autism in Silicone Valley), different levels of attractiveness (beautiful people only marrying beautiful people), and so on.

From that we have this: Cavalli-Sforza's color map of genetic affinity showing the gradual transitions in the world...

Cavalli_map_OldWorld.jpg


So, both camps are wrong.

Some stick to outdated constructs, that there are discreet "races" and that you are either this or that or a mixture. Others, more post modern, say flat out that race doesn't even exist, that there are more genetic differences among individuals within "races" than that between races. The reality, as always the case, is something in-between.

There are those who think of everything in solid, discreet terms, as if the vast amount of diversity can all be attributed to 3 or 4 discreet "races". In their mind it's as though each "race" just all huddled in a cave by themselves, separated from another "race", until one day they decided to spread. All the variation can be explained by them as a mixture of these basic archetypes/races. Needless to say, it's an outdated view that's been whooped by reality each time, especially the genetic findings of recent years. The notion that each nation (in the meta sense as in nation, tribe, race) forms a discreet block different from others, that each nation has its own lineage, genetic origin, and phenotype apart from others, has proven to be foolish. The nation, your brethren, are nothing but a collection of unrelated peoples, perhaps enemies or different "races" 30,000 years ago, who came together to form a breeding population, which became a new nation/race over time.

On the other side of the opinion spectrum, there are those who take these truths to conclude that "race" doesn't exist. That's also foolish, because it's as blind as saying different colors don't exist.

To be updated.
Got this article from another forum.
 
Ok first things first Homo Sapiens is singular Homines Sapientes is the plural.

I am a Homo Sapiens.
We are Homines Sapientes.

Also
1. Genetic differences exist between all organisms.
2. Genetics similarities exist between all organisms.
3. We can divide groups of organisms into arbitrary degree of similarity which are distinguished by their differences. This is what taxonomy does and the currently recognized taxa are Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus and Species.

The taxon of races lies between the subspecies and the individual.

The only reason I don't believe any such grouping has ever been described (Possibly the Supraspecies of Homo Sapiens Sapiens) is because it would be too damn controversial.

Edit: This is a comment about the article Tree Fiddy posted.

The article tergiversates about the existence of races by stating that there are genetic similarities to such an extent that groupings can be made; However, these groupings are really just a gradient of genetic qualities. The mistake the article makes is in not considering that Homo Sapiens is a successful species and therefore is diversifying in a manner that new groupings would have to be made to describe it.
 

MrSardonic

The nerdiest nerd of all the nerds in nerdland
That article is basically misinterpreting every source it has drawn on. It is not post-modernists who say that "races" do not exist :lol

pnjtony said:
Ask any anthropology student and they will confirm that there is a different bone structure between asians blacks whites and so on. It's more than skin deep. There are different races.

I am an anthropologist - both social and biological. Neither discipline considers "races" to exist outside of politics. Dismissing the concept of race does not mean that you pretend we all look identical and have identical genetics.

happyfunball said:
Well that doesn't appear to be supported by evidence.

it is supported by evidence because it is the evidence which lead to that conclusion being reached. Both biological and social studies have come to the same conclusion and neither argument relies on the other.

Identifying a gene that is only found in people with ancestry from East Asia, or Y-chromosomes only found from Australia, is not a basis for separating humans into "races".
 
on a episode of house they talked about how certain diseases effect various races differently, such as diabetes, but then again its just a TV show and I havent researched any of it. I believe there are races now, but its because of the vastly different lifestyles between them over time. For example, diabetes in african americans is much more common perhaps because of the 'evolution' of the black american genepool over the last 300 years in north america. Another example, some 'races' can also absorb alcohol a lot faster and more effeciently than others.
 
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