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The age-old question: What is an RPG?

Arulan

Member
But rather than going down that rabbit-hole myself, I'd like to link to this article by Felipe Pepe:

Why RPGs are so hard to classify and evolve?

For those of you who do not know him, he's working on the CRPG Book Project, and has written several interesting articles on RPGs, and the importance of gaming history.

Computer RPGs are weird.

Even thought I play & love them since childhood, even though I'm editing a book on CRPGs, even though I've been posting on the RPG Codex for NINE YEARS (Oh god, send help), I can't easily answer one of the hardest questions ever - be it for devs, critics or fans: "define RPG".

So I've decided to sit down and rant a bit on why it's so hard to define this genre, and also why it's a genre that sometimes end restricting its games. Some of it will be obvious, but I hope to offer some decent insights. I even recruited Batman for this.

Buckle up, this will be LOOOOOOONG.

Computer, roll a d20 for me

So in more technical terms, most video-games focus on player skill, while tabletop RPGs rely on character skill - conveyed thought stats and tested via dice-rolls. Each on its own.

But back in 1974 there were already some guys who liked BOTH! They played the original Dungeons & Dragons and were studying with PLATO mainframes at college. And they decided to merge them, programing the mighty computer to "DM" a crude tabletop-like RPG for them:

O44y8JL.jpg


I don't blame them, I can't imagine how hard it was to find a d20 in the 70's.

But by doing this, they created what we call a CRPG - a computer role-playing game!

To sum up:

Tabletop RPG: Has stats. You roll the dice.

Computer RPG: Has stats. The computer rolls the dice.

Other Video Games: No stats, no dice bro.

Oh man, this is so simple, why people get confused?

Why people get confused

[...]
 

Platy

Member
A miserable pile of XP ? But call of duty...

...a miserable pile of NPCs giving Sidequests ? Oh GTA ...

...a miserable pile of turn based Rp* fuck you FF15 !
 

PSqueak

Banned
If it has even the most rudimentary implementation of a D&D inspired character stat building and outcome of actions are still heavily reliant on an RNG, it's what would be an RPG in the explicit sense of videogames.

That's how i personally see it.
 

SalvaPot

Member
What is an RPG but a miserable pile of Angst.

But to answer your questions, is a game where the player can immerse himself in the story as if its their own. Role Playing Game, you are playing a role, even if you don't believe you are the character himself.
 

Consumer

Member
Answer's in the OP -- a game with (upgradeable) stats. Name 1 RPG that breaks this rule. Protip: you can't.
 
I have a suspicion that not many are reading the OP, or more specifically the article in question.

neogaf.gif

Though in all honesty, the title doesn't really reflect the fact this is an article discussion thread.

Also this is a very good article, in my humble opinion.
 

Mephala

Member
The article say it is not because Link does not have stats....

But in both Majora and Ocarina (to say just some examples) Link has diferent "stats" at diferent moments of the narrative

I agree with this assessment but I also think that some of the games are a lot more RPGish than others.
 

PSqueak

Banned
I have a suspicion that not many are reading the OP, or more specifically the article in question.

To be fair, rather than answering the question, the article focuses more on how the author thinks the "genre" evolved the way it did and how it affected the audience.
 

Gsnap

Member
What RPG is, is a terrible name for a genre. Not only can we not use the term literally (role-playing game), as that would describe every game ever made, but we also cannot use it to separate games by gameplay or story structure or anything else. We cannot use it to describe story heavy games, as that applies to too many games to be accurate. We cannot use it to describe games where we create our own character or "make choices", because there's far too many games that do that too. We can't even use it to describe games with "stats", as basic progression structures have made their way into every genre. It's a garbage term that is thrown around whenever it feels appropriate (and it gets even worse when we start adding W's and J's to it). We use it because we're used to using it. Because once upon a time it may have had some meaning, and since then we've simply clung to it. It's far more difficult to create new genre names that work, and have them spread wide enough that people actually use them properly, than it is to just stick with what we've been using even if it is outdated or clunky.

But most of the time when you call something an RPG most people will agree with you or at least naturally understand what you're talking about. So it doesn't really matter, I guess.

Answer's in the OP -- a game with (upgradeable) stats. Name 1 RPG that breaks this rule. Protip: you can't.

Dread.
 
Rocket propelled grenade.

You will not find consensus outside of that.

Rutschnoi Protiwotankowy Granatomjot

"Handused Anti-Tank-Grenade Launcher". It does not say if the grenade is propelled by a rocket and indeed, several RPGs are not using rockets. There is no consensus, not even here.
 

Blobbers

Member
Here, I came up with these rules. A game is an RPG if it meets the following 5 criteria:

1. gotta be able to equip stuff, like weapons, armor and accessories
2. there's levels, leveling up and experience
3. there's a final boss
4. there's a semblance of focus on story and characters, doesn't have to be a good story or well written characters
5. there's an above average focus on the world itself, an rpg often has a grandiose world that tells a story itself
bonus 6th factor that elevates the quality of an rpg:
great soundtrack
 

Arulan

Member
neogaf.gif

Though in all honesty, the title doesn't really reflect the fact this is an article discussion thread.

Also this is a very good article, in my humble opinion.

I suppose I should have made it more clear in the title. If a Mod is reading, could you add: (Read the article) to the title?
 

jblank83

Member
I'll re-recycle two old posts to address the topic question:

The first cRPGs were based on D&D, a game in which a player character was defined as a page of numerical skills/stats. Those skills/stats were challenged by formulas, in everything from combat to conversation, even walking across a slippery floor. Have high dexterity? Higher chance to walk across that floor.

Characters in such systems grow in response to their adventures by leveling, at which point their skills/stats increase (and sometimes decrease) at the player's choice, sometimes at the dungeon master's, in response to special quests and challenges, or even automatically. Leveling is thus most commonly represented by EXP points, though other forms of leveling exist.

cRPGs do not need combat, inventories, dungeon exploration, towns, neutral NPCs to talk with, or anything else as long as these core mechanics are met: player character based on quantifiable skills/stats, complex game formulas which rely on those skills/stats, and the ability of skills/stats to change in response to the outcome of those game formulas. cRPGs often contain choice as well, but not always in any significant manner.

Zelda is not an RPG (meaning all computer and console roleplaying games) because the player does not have a character sheet (skills/stats), it contains no formulas that challenge the player character's skills/stats, and it does not have a complex growth system. Hearts are not experience. They're items. You find them and pick them up, just as you would a mushroom in Super Mario. Once obtained hearts are hit points, but that's not what makes a game an RPG, as every game where you can die in response to damage has hit points, either obvious or hidden from the player's view.

Nor are computer and console RPGs LARPing. That is not their heritage. Their heritage is Ultima and Wizardry, which explicitly emulated the character sheets (skills/stats), leveling systems, and game formulas of Dungeons & Dragons. Someday there may be a sub-genre or unique genre where the only thing that matters is choice and the only reward is a response to that choice, with no formulas to worry about, no skills/stats to groom, and no leveling systems (i.e. purely roleplaying and not a game), but today is not such a day. Today, cRPGs are still D&D -> Ultima/Wizardy -> Everything we have now.

RPGs are a complex genre because they are based on complex formulas. Compare with something like an FPS. An FPS is in first person and you shoot things. Simple. No, or at least few, grey areas.

RPGs are much more. Formulas dictate everything, far more than simple hit detection and health pools. Will a sword strike connect? Check the formula (factor in dex, weapon skill, stamina, sword condition). Will it do damage? Check the formula (factor in armor, opponent defense skill). Does the enemy die? Check the formula (check HP, factor in special skills, special conditions). If it does, what rewards are gained? Check the formulas (exp gained based on both character levels, roll on loot table). Does it change faction standing? Check the formulas (enemy's factions, player's factions, set flags, change values). Did the player level up? Etc etc etc.

That means that by the very nature RPGs are harder to define. They take more work to think about. Further, RPGs have grey areas, overlaps. Many overlap with adventure games (puzzle solving). Some overlap with action games. Some even overlap with FPS games. And vice versa, as games appropriate the "level up" mechanic.

But that doesn't mean the genre label is meaningless, even if new gamers are often unaware of the genre's genesis. Genre labels let us know what to expect from a game. They're useful tools for understanding what we're jumping into. Is it shooting? Is it puzzling? Is it RPG stuff?

Genre labels aren't 100% accurate descriptions of every facet of each and every product all wrapped up in one word. There will be overlap, as each game is something complex and hard to define without volumes of text. They're just quick descriptions to start us off on understanding what the general gameplay is about.

So, it takes work to describe what "RPG" means. That's fine. Some people will misunderstand that term. That's fine as well. Even if we use a new term to describe RPGs which we think is more accurate, there will still be grey areas, misunderstanding. Someone somewhere will still try to classify Zelda as an RPG. Fine.

As long as most people understand the label, as long as it is still a fit term to help most people understand what they should expect from a game, then it will suffice.

As for the article, it addresses some of the history and the definitions the same way I see them. The conclusion is fine. Options are always good. Expecting every game to provide 3 vastly different ways to play is not realistic though. It entails extra engineering, programming, testing, time, and money. Most companies like to streamline all of those things to provide the most cost effective product for the market.

I don't think trying to alter the meaning of the genre label is a useful activity. If adventure games and CYOA games become the "new RPG", we'll need a label for the "old RPGs". If "character choices" becomes the prime determinant of what is and is not an RPG, we will again need a label for old stat based cRPGs. It would be easier to call these alternate games something else, given the history that cRPGs have already established.
 
It's vagueness goes all the way back to its name. "Role-playing game"? Has to be the most hilariously non-descriptive genre name across all media.
 
The real question is: is Zelda a RPG?

Not really. iirc it has always been referred to as an epic adventure.

RPG's of all kinds normally have a leveling system and abilities/spells/traits locked behind a progression. It gives alot of people a sense of accomplishment because most RPGs allow freedom for people to level up as much as they want and controlling how strong a character is before they go into a battle.

Adventure and action games, normally have things behind story sections or particular event triggers. Meaning things a more fixed in terms of what you can do and your progression is skill based , how well you can use what is on hand, versus having the ability to gain a new ability via grinding or fighting something off the beaten path.
 

Griss

Member
Linked article was a tough read, yikes. Calm down there bud.

You have to qualify the term RPG with another term for someone to have any idea what kind of game you're talking about. That's why it's a meaningless, useless term, and why I don't use it.

If I did have to pin it down to one kind of game, it'd be the Bethesda experience. Your character is created by yourself, then entirely defined by your decisions and his combat ability is largely based on stats. Any game where you can say those things can be an RPG.
 
Honestly the simplest definition is that an role playing game is a war game where you play the role of single person instead of a group or an abstracted army.
 
I think part of it is that the term 'role-playing game' is neither explicitly narrative or mechanical in its base description, and as such, can be applied fairly loosely, or borrowed from by other more readily defined genres - much as fantasy often has the same issue in other mediums.

If I say 'First Person Shooter', that explicitly explains both the player perspective but also the main method of progression through the game. 'Platformer', whilst a little less intuitive, still ultimately comes out to referring to your primary challenge in the game - navigating various 'platforms' (whether actual or other characters) as obstacles.

But a 'role-playing game' really doesn't tell much; its kind of a tautology.
 
Here, I came up with these rules. A game is an RPG if it meets the following 5 criteria:

1. gotta be able to equip stuff, like weapons, armor and accessories
2. there's levels, leveling up and experience
3. there's a final boss
4. there's a semblance of focus on story and characters, doesn't have to be a good story or well written characters
5. there's an above average focus on the world itself, an rpg often has a grandiose world that tells a story itself
bonus 6th factor that elevates the quality of an rpg:
great soundtrack


According to these 5 criteria Ninja Gaiden Black is an RPG...

You can equip weapons and suits/armour. You get experience and you can level up. There's a final boss. It does have a bad story. You explore Vigoor and find details about the place while you explore it.
 
I have a hard time considering most RPG these days an RPG. Too many shoehorn you into a character in which you have minimal opportunity to actually role-play. It's usually when the game is narrative focused rather than player-driven. Many JRPG especially are guilty of this I find, though Western RPG are getting that way more and more.
 

Stiler

Member
To me the easiest way to define an rpg is not through it's combat, but rather that you can take a character and then shape and form them how you wish them to be, even if it's a set character (IE Geralt from the Witcher 3).

That's the base-line to define an rpg.

You can have turn -based combat and still be an rpg, you can have real-time combat, real-time with pause combat, etc and it's still an rpg as long as you have ways to define your character/s and shape them.
 
What I like the most about an RPG is when you have the chance to tell people that there is a three headed monkey behind them so that's why Monkey Island will always be the best RPG.
 

Arkam

Member
Like all terms the use gets stretched and transformed over time. For me an RPG is a story based game where the player's primary focus is the player-character. The player-character is the primary conduit of interacting with the game world and can be altered. (as where the game world is essentially stationary) This allows players to experience the game world repeatedly with altered experiences based on altered player-characters.

By "primary conduit of interaction" I mean that the player alters the player-character and then allows the game to play out. Versus USING the character to directly cause actions. So not unlike fantasy sports. You build your team up before the game and then see the results happen. And since those alterations are the only way the character can impact these events the alteration become more important. It brings it to the forefront of the experience.
 
I'll re-recycle two old posts to address the topic question:



As for the article, it addresses some of the history and the definitions the same way I see them. The conclusion is fine. Options are always good. Expecting every game to provide 3 vastly different ways to play is not realistic though. It entails extra engineering, programming, testing, time, and money. Most companies like to streamline all of those things to provide the most cost effective product for the market.

I don't think trying to alter the meaning of the genre label is a useful activity. If adventure games and CYOA games become the "new RPG", we'll need a label for the "old RPGs". If "character choices" becomes the prime determinant of what is and is not an RPG, we will again need a label for old stat based cRPGs. It would be easier to call these alternate games something else, given the history that cRPGs have already established.

Long version of what I said.
 

OmegaDL50

Member
It makes sense when you consider Dungeons & Dragons in comparison to other traditional games like board games and card games.

Very few people take stock of the actual genre itself as reference to it's origin with D&D from over 40 years ago when it was established.

Especially considering the context of the original game with character stat sheets, dice rolls, and a GM who sets the narrative or quest direction, enemy encounters, possible rewards.

Since then people diluted the term with broad generalisations. Especially when people use a hackneyed excuse "An RPG is a game in which you take the role of a character" which could apply to nearly every genre.

However a very few subset of games are classified as RPG as an actual GENRE.

Which brings to the point of people confusing the point of an RPG indicative of a series of gameplay mechanics and not a encompassing genre identifier as a whole.
 
A game where you play a predestined character and role rather than creating one yourself? When you bring the aspect of table-top gaming to an artform is where it gets muddy.

Edit: though referring to RPG as a gaming genre you could apply the D&D inspiration of stat building and character skill like in the OP. Bloodbourne, Xenoblade Chronicles, Fallout.
 
As the article says, it's a bad term that means radically different thing to different people, thanks in large part to marketing. Just look at the thread so far, people posting completely different and narrow criteria for a genre that encompasses a huge amount of games.

Now it's nearly useless for describing games, and as the article says, it's somehow also become too exclusive. A game doesn't need visible stats to be an RPG and a game with stats is not necessarily an RPG.
 

Jigorath

Banned
The entire gaming community never going to agree on one specific definition of an RPG.

So define it however you want.
 
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