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Noah Gervais: In defense of Doom 3

AHA-Lambda

Member
A look back at Doom 3 and its 2 expansions both as "an individual horror shooter and as part of the broader Doom franchise"

If you haven't checked out this guys previous work you really should, both his Call of Duty and F.E.A.R. retrospectives where very well received here on gaf

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vn0IMQIlUMQ

Lock if old.
 

Markitron

Is currently staging a hunger strike outside Gearbox HQ while trying to hate them to death
I actually loved Doom 3 at release, when I played the remaster it's flaws were a lot more obvious. Still think it's an under-rated game though.
 

RoboPlato

I'd be in the dick
I'm a fan of Doom 3 as well. The combination of horror elements and Doom combat felt really unique to me. I understand the criticisms from longterm fans but it was a cool game that has a feel all it's own.

Never seen this guy's vids before but I'll definitely give this a watch.
 
This guy's videos are always great to watch, even if I don't always agree with him. Gonna watch all this now. Thanks OP.
 
Watched it earlier. Tended to agree with him, especially with regards to the flashlight. Actually feel like playing the game again.

I'm a fan of Doom 3 as well. The combination of horror elements and Doom combat felt really unique to me. I understand the criticisms from longterm fans but it was a cool game that has a feel all it's own.

Never seen this guy's vids before but I'll definitely give this a watch.

If you have the time, his two hour Call of Duty critique and his FEAR retrospective are well worth it.
 

120v

Member
awesome. love this guy's videos

I played Doom 3 for the first time a few years ago via BFG edition and was surprised how much i enjoyed it and how well the visuals held up. it must have looked mind melting in 2004

if half life hadn't stole its thunder it'd probably be better regarded, despite it not really being a Doom game
 
I liked Doom 3 a LOT when it released. and I think it mostly succeeds with what it does. It was only years later that I realized I wish it was more like Doom 1 and 2, but that's mostly because like Noah says in this video, we've got tons of games structured like Doom 3 now, and very few like Doom 1 and 2.
 

RoboPlato

I'd be in the dick
Not done yet but the way this guy talks about the flashlight mechanic and lighting tech is spot on.
 

Ame

Member
I actually loved Doom 3 at release, when I played the remaster it's flaws were a lot more obvious. Still think it's an under-rated game though.

Same here. Loved it when it first came out. Although I haven't played it since then, so I don't know what I would think of the game now.
 

ZehDon

Gold Member
Awesome, will watch later. I replay Doom 3 every year - still one of my personal favourites. I don't consider it a good "doom" so much as "the best Aliens game we never had."
 

TheSeks

Blinded by the luminous glory that is David Bowie's physical manifestation.
There was TWO expansions for Doom 3?

I know of Resurrection of Evil, the other one was...?
 
Doom 3 is one of the fondest gaming memories I have. Working all summer to save up for a graphics card in my piddly little rig. Getting that and then not having a monitor that could output the resolution I needed...

finally getting it all running in time for release date. It didn't matter that all the human model's heads came to an awkward point, it felt great, and the sound design... :eek:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jsPkDc8JhA

that plasma gun reload
 
There was TWO expansions for Doom 3?

I know of Resurrection of Evil, the other one was...?

The second one, The Lost Mission, was created specifically for the BFG Edition of the game. That is the only place it's available. It uses a lot of assets ripped straight from the main game, including whole rooms.
 
I remember being a bit disappointed in Doom 3 on release, feeling it was too far removed from the gameplay of the original two games, but playing it nowadays... it really needs no defense. It's certainly different from Doom 1 and 2, but it's a damn solid and enjoyable game in it's own right. We would be lucky if more modern games followed it's design.

Also, Noah Gervais' videos are great. If you like games and you're not watching them... well, you should be. They're always very thoughtful and well put together.
 

Big_Al

Unconfirmed Member
I've been playing it recently with the absolute hd/trent reznor sound mods and I must admit I've been warming to it a lot more compared to when I first played it. My biggest complaint is that it isn't really 'Doom' but for what it is I've been enjoying it.
 

Anung

Un Rama
Absolutely adore this guys work even on subjects that don't mean much to me. Just incredibly well thought out and insightful videos.
 

injurai

Banned
This was really well done, It's even nice that he doesn't edit and clean up his talking. You can tell he is reading a prepared write up, which is far above what most youtubers do.

I think it's really good to note the industry that 3 was falling into. You had Half-life 2, Halo 2, Far Cry, Killzone, Metroid Prime 2, and Escape From Butcher Bay. Of course FEAR the next year. The FPS market had been shifting, especially since the first Half-Life's impact on the industry. Fast paced games were being pushed to multiplayer only games like UT and Quake. Slower more campaign driven games were being explored. Death of the author is something I've always found odd. In some sense there is place for it, but in another an author or even entires teams place relative to the market has a strong impact on what is done. I think Doom 3 really succeeded in being something different, and all along expectations were its biggest challenge to surmount.
 

Mr Cola

Brothas With Attitude / The Wrong Brotha to Fuck Wit / Die Brotha Die / Brothas in Paris
Guy does good work, shame he had personal issues that screwed up his rise

His Fear retrospective is a must watch
 

KorrZ

Member
Noah's videos are always excellent, and based on his twitter we should have a Starcraft retrospective up this month as well which I am super excited for.
 
I have a soft spot for Doom 3. It is a good game in its own right that was overshadowed by Half-Life 2 in the gameplay department. It's a fun play through, if not a little straight forward with a little too much emphasis on monster closets. The expansion was pretyt good IMO.

It's funny that he talks about the lack of a use key, that was something that John Carmack was against back in the day and something that he got a lot of slack for. Carmack was always very minimalist when it comes to game design, his philosophy has always been "less is more"" and it always showed in the games that he helmed.

The game was amazing looking for the time and still looks pretty good now. the Hell level was really cool though.
 
All games look exactly the same.

The special thing about ID is that every game has a kind of "signature" look that simply stands apart in its own way and is never surpassed by anything else.

Doom, Quake and Doom 3 all have this special look. With the exception of Quake 2 & 3 that are way more indistinct and not really remain as classics.

(of course I'm talking about the ORIGINAL Doom 3 release, because the new version that is available on Steam is just shit and destroys everything good about Doom 3 graphic and feel)
 
I just replayed Doom 3 sometime last year and had kind of a different experience than originally. I never disliked the game and thought it was fine/ok, but didn't really feel like Doom. However this last playthrough maybe after years of shooters going in a more ADS and modern military direction made me realize just how much Doom 3 does actually feel like Doom. The enemy types, the way you sprint to dodge projectiles, and the weaponry really do evoke the feeling that old Doom did just at a slower pace.

Three things really let down the game though; the shotgun spread is way too large to use on most enemies, and I had a mod that made it tighter so you could use it more like Doom 1 / 2 and the game felt much better. Secondly the sprint is limited so you can't use it all the time. And lastly just for technical reasons the enemy count is much lower than what could be done in Doom and the tighter areas probably wouldn't fit it either.

But in the end I ended up giving it more credit for sticking to Doom as close as it did while still having to update itself for being a modern 3d shooter releasing in the time it did. It's a tough balance.
 
Another fan of Doom 3 here. I understand the complaints but I simply enjoy the game. Love the dark creepy lonely atmosphere.
I dont actually see a lot of dark corners in the Doom 4 footage which disappoints me. Doom 3 laid the feelings of dread on thick.

All games look exactly the same.

The special thing about ID is that every game has a kind of "signature" look that simply stands apart in its own way and is never surpassed by anything else.

Doom, Quake and Doom 3 all have this special look. With the exception of Quake 2 & 3 that are way more indistinct and not really remain as classics.

(of course I'm talking about the ORIGINAL Doom 3 release, because the new version that is available on Steam is just shit and destroys everything good about Doom 3 graphic and feel)

I know what you're talking about regarding the special look Doom 3 has and I love it. I'm not all that bothered by BFG Edition as long as I turn the brightness down a bit. After doing that I don't really perceive any issues.
 

KDC720

Member
DOOM 3 is fine. I think 1 and 2 are far better, but I like that id at least tried something different with 3.

Going for more of an action horror vibe seemed like it would be perfect given that DOOM features a bunch of gnarly looking demons as it's main enemies, and while the game stops being scary after the first few levels, I still think it's pretty good shooter.
 
I have a soft spot for Doom 3. It is a good game in its own right that was overshadowed by Half-Life 2 in the gameplay department.

Really? If anything, I honestly believe that Doom 3 has aged a lot better than Half-Life 2 in terms of gameplay. Half-Life 2's greatest gift to the FPS genre has been physics puzzles, which, while innovative in 2004, are just not very interesting or creative 10+ years on. Doom 3's gameplay is relatively simplistic in comparison, but that's also arguably it's strength - the more fast-paced, action orientated play style still feels good, and indeed, downright unique compared to any other modern game.
 
The gun play in Doom 3 feels sublime, the guns sound and feel powerful and are fun to use, minus the pistol. The game is great as a shooter.

I grew up with the PS1 version of Doom, which had the soundtrack and sound effects replaced making it sound much scarier,
so I was used to the idea of Doom being about horror and was okay with Doom 3's approach.
 
Really? If anything, I honestly believe that Doom 3 has aged a lot better than Half-Life 2 in terms of gameplay.

Well, I wasn't really comparing how these games have aged. But back in 2004 Doom 3 was completely overshadowed by Half-Life 2. People generally preferred the variety of that game over this one.
 

Reebot

Member
I have a vague memory of the BFG edition being broken, or a graphical downgrade. I know he addresses the weird missing portion in the expansion, but wasn't there some change to the lighting model as well?
 

Combichristoffersen

Combovers don't work when there is no hair
Just finished the main campaign and Lost Mission in Doom 3: BFG earlier today, first time I've played the game in.. probably about 10 years. It's still a pretty good game, even though it's quite different from Doom 1 and 2 with the whole action horror FPS thing. Graphically the BFG edition still holds up pretty well, and I'm glad they fixed the flashlight. My only real complaints would probably be that combat can be a chore in those tight corridors and cramped rooms, and the final boss was kinda annoying (since you could fall over the edge and into the Hell Hole).
 
My single favorite thing from Doom 3, the thing which I'm most annoyed didn't get copied by other games is the detailed use of computer systems in the game. I was SO sure when I first played the game that it was the future of gaming, that it would be like a standard feature from then on out. But no, a decade later and I'm still pressing E to "use" in almost everything.

I'd love for them to include some kind of backend into a new idTech or Unreal engine or something specifically to simulate computer systems.
 

TheSeks

Blinded by the luminous glory that is David Bowie's physical manifestation.
The second one, The Lost Mission, was created specifically for the BFG Edition of the game. That is the only place it's available. It uses a lot of assets ripped straight from the main game, including whole rooms.

There was another included in the BFG Edition that came out a few years back

Did not know this. Guess I have a reason to boot up the BFG edition then.
 
I have a vague memory of the BFG edition being broken, or a graphical downgrade. I know he addresses the weird missing portion in the expansion, but wasn't there some change to the lighting model as well?

I'm just going by memory here, but I think they made a lot of the pitch black areas a bit lighter. This, along with a flashlight that can be used any time, were reactions to complaints about the original release being too dark and complaints about the flashlight mechanic. Some areas had the lighting simplified, mostly by removing some light sources. It was thought this was done to help the BFG Edition hit 60fps on Xbox 360 and PS3.

edit: Also I think they moved the whole thing onto id Tech 5, or some version of it, which resulted in none of the mods for the original version working with the BFG Edition.
 
I have a vague memory of the BFG edition being broken, or a graphical downgrade. I know he addresses the weird missing portion in the expansion, but wasn't there some change to the lighting model as well?

I'm not aware of anything being broken. They did make some changes to the lighting. The game was generally brighter than vanilla in BFG, which people didn't like.

But it's worth it to me for the higher supported resolutions & widescreen, checkpoints and other upgrade perks like projectile shadows and better textures. I just do the obvious thing and turn the brightness down a little. That didn't stop the internet from having a meltdown and running around telling everyone that the game was destroyed.
 
I have a vague memory of the BFG edition being broken, or a graphical downgrade. I know he addresses the weird missing portion in the expansion, but wasn't there some change to the lighting model as well?

The one thing that bothered me about the BFG edition was the narrower FOV and the lack of a slider. It could still be changed by modding the .cfg files. But yeah, there are some odd changes with the game.
 

Reebot

Member
I'm just going by memory here, but I think they made a lot of the pitch black areas a bit lighter. This, along with a flashlight that can be used any time, were reactions to complaints about the original release being too dark and complaints about the flashlight mechanic. Some areas had the lighting simplified, mostly by removing some light sources. It was thought this was done to help the BFG Edition hit 60fps on Xbox 360 and PS3.

Yeah, that sounds like what I remember hearing. Weird then that this video would show footage from the BFG edition, since his commentary really reflects the original. Maybe he wasn't aware of the changes?

My single favorite thing from Doom 3, the thing which I'm most annoyed didn't get copied by other games is the detailed use of computer systems in the game. I was SO sure when I first played the game that it was the future of gaming, that it would be like a standard feature from then on out. But no, a decade later and I'm still pressing E to "use" in almost everything.

I'd love for them to include some kind of backend into a new idTech or Unreal engine or something specifically to simulate computer systems.

That stuff was and still is so rad, we can only hope it somehow makes a resurgence. Any indication of it in Doom 2016?
 
My single favorite thing from Doom 3, the thing which I'm most annoyed didn't get copied by other games is the detailed use of computer systems in the game. I was SO sure when I first played the game that it was the future of gaming, that it would be like a standard feature from then on out. But no, a decade later and I'm still pressing E to "use" in almost everything.

I'd love for them to include some kind of backend into a new idTech or Unreal engine or something specifically to simulate computer systems.

I mean for most devs it's probably just unnecessarily complicated. More GUIs and more scripting.... bah!
 
I know what you're talking about regarding the special look Doom 3 has and I love it. I'm not all that bothered by BFG Edition as long as I turn the brightness down a bit. After doing that I don't really perceive any issues.

It's not just a brightness issue. Even with the same setting the old version is superior. The colors are different. And the new version also gets a few minor things wrong and even misses some shaders.

And on top of that, the new version even performs worse.

I really don't know what was the point of changing an engine with a worse one on every aspect.
 
Really? If anything, I honestly believe that Doom 3 has aged a lot better than Half-Life 2 in terms of gameplay. Half-Life 2's greatest gift to the FPS genre has been physics puzzles, which, while innovative in 2004, are just not very interesting or creative 10+ years on. Doom 3's gameplay is relatively simplistic in comparison, but that's also arguably it's strength - the more fast-paced, action orientated play style still feels good, and indeed, downright unique compared to any other modern game.

Can't say I fully agree with your assessment of the two.

Half-Life 2 was about far more than physics puzzles. The two biggest things that the Half-Life series did for shooters was the incredible pacing and storytelling through gameplay. Pacing wise I don't think many shooters have touched Half-Life 2 to this day.

That game constantly has you doing something new almost every step of the way, the physics stuff was just one part of that. You also had vehicle sections and even a couple of times where you fight alongside others. And their way of telling story was incredibly influential as well.

Doom 3 on the other hand was the first time I remember really feeling like a game had atmosphere, which was really due to it's implementation of a unified lighting and shadow system. That was the most realistic damn thing we had ever had up to that point. And the gameplay was incredibly tight and exactly what you expect from an Id game.

I think both games hold up incredibly well in their own way, though enough cannot be said about how forward thinking the tech in Doom 3 was.

Both of these games dragged like hell toward the end though. My biggest gripe with Doom 3 is that the game does very little to break up the monotony of killing the same mindless Imps walking down the same kinds of dark corridors for 10-12 hours. Thankfully the gunplay was great but the small, samey levels didn't exactly lend themselves to much variety. Half-Life wins there.

2004 was such a great year for PC shooters. Far Cry, Doom 3, and HL2 all in the same year, all pushing technological boundaries in different ways a year before the next generation started.
 
The greatest problem of Doom 3 is that, despite looking good, it was a HUGE technological leap BACKWARDS.

From Doom to Doom 2, then Quake we had more complex and expansive environments. Some sense of wonder. And then Doom 3 came it was back down to very tiny and crammed rooms. That's just not the tradeoff one can accept.

Graphical fidelity cannot push back so much what the engine can do. So in the end Doom 3 was an engine that overall could do so much less, and it was so much more limited. Gameplay was shallow and repetitive.

The game simply looking good, within huge technological constraints, just isn't enough to make it into a good game.
 

tr00per

Member
Fantastic video. He pretty much nailed everything, from Carmack's design philosophy and the tech leading the design, to the flashlight and the hell sections. I replayed doom 3 with the "perfected" mod a couple years ago. The hell level was definitely the highlight of the game. I still need to play resurrection of evil :/


I will always have a special place in my heart for doom. It was the best game my computer could run when I was a kid so I played it obsessively.


The gun play in Doom 3 feels sublime, the guns sound and feel powerful and are fun to use, minus the pistol. The game is great as a shooter.


This. That's also why I enjoyed Rage. Id (as they should) knows how guns should look, feel, and sound. The whole time I played Rage I just tortured myself with a doom with that engine. So imagine my glee hearing about the doom 4 leaks. I only hope that the new doom can capture that trademark gunplay. Even if the game is mediocre, as long as it's functional with THAT gunplay, I will love it. Besides there's always snapmap :p


I can't say I agree...


And this. But don't discount that with hl2, valve also brought the source engine, which among other things has made game creators out of countless people. Much as I enjoyed doom 3, if they cut at least 2 chapters out the pacing would have been much better.
 
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