• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

My Beef with Summer Lesson

Dylan

Member
I started typing this in another thread but it became fleshed out enough that I think it warrants its own discussion.

XZgzafS.jpg


Hardly anything surprises me anymore, but I have to admit that I'm a bit perplexed by the net positive reactions to Summer Lesson.

"Yup, I'll buy that." "For sure", "I'm looking forward to it", "Very interested", etc. Some phrases I've heard on various podcasts and GAF posts.

Now, I get that this is probably the first big-budget "human interaction" experience, and most people at least claim to be interested purely from that standpoint. That's fine, but the fact that this game isn't being met by-and-large with an awkward shudder or at least an eye roll paints a very sad picture of the mindset of the gaming audience at large, as well as publishers' perception of what people want.

--Just to get it out of the way; I wouldn't consider myself conservative at all in terms of sexuality or 'artistic expression' or anything like that. I'm not offended by boobs in God of War or shirtless dudes in El Shaddai. People should be free to seek out whatever experiences they want so long as nobody is negatively affected. I also haven't actually played Summer Lesson for whatever that's worth. --

However, I do think it's a bit depressing that this specific kind of experience seems to have been pushed near to the forefront of the VR zeitgeist (at least in Japan) with seemingly little backlash. Importantly, it isn't like there is any confusion as to what this game actually is; the promotional material makes it clear to us "We went to the pool recently! Wanna see a picture?" that this is a game about ogling a young girl, designed to look just a hair old enough not to be morally or legally verboten.

Summer-Lesson-VR-demo-2.jpg


And that isn't even the part that disturbs me. Personally, I think it would be easier to swallow if the game was so transparently sexual that it could be considered fantasy. Say for example this was a game solely about a sexual stereotype who exists for no other reason than to flirt with the player. If it were strip poker for example, or even a girlfriend simulator, my reaction would be "Well, that's not for me, but I can see why someone would want to experience that. So be it."

Where Summer Lesson turns particularly dark for me, from what I've seen so far, is how the game goes out of it's way to really humanize the student. Sure, she's still a Japanese Schoolgirl, and stereotypical as hell, but she also talks about her friends and her family, her interests and her life. She's as close to a human being as anything else we've seen in VR so far.

zlebz7eiol1rwu9i2tfb.gif


But here's why that's fucked up: The game is essentially asking the player to dehumanize this girl, mentally, and secretly. When the student says "We went to the pool, wanna see a picture?" - the suggestion doesn't seem to be "This girl is flirting with you." but rather "this girl is oblivious to the sexual suggestions created by the scenario, and you, dear player, are reaping the benefits." In a real world scenario, surely, there would be some tinge of guilt, or at least an uncomfortable feeling as we ponder our motivations for being there in the first place. Is the fact that this is VR supposed to negate said guilt? Is this the same sense of fantastic escapism that we feel when we jack cars and shoot people in GTA? I'm not so sure.

KTx9UMG.gif


I can imagine a grown adult man, wearing a VR headset, listening to this virtual teen girl talk to him about her academics, her interest in piano, her favourite movie, and all the while his brain is engaged in a veritable psychological magic show, desperately trying to reassure himself that when he bought this game, he was very sincerely interested in experiencing a simulation of what it's like to be a tutor.

It's a depressing thought. And granted, I might be hypersensitive to this type of thing since I just recently started teaching. I find teaching to be an extremely rewarding experience, and maintaining professionalism in that role is something in which I, and likely most teachers, take a great deal of pride. We've all probably heard stories about the creepy high school teacher who shamelessly flirts with their students, and how revolting it seems to us in the real world. But are we revolted purely because of the potential damage to the students? Are we not also reacting to the feeling that fundamentally, we aren't okay with the motivation behind this behaviour? Are we meant to take the headset off and pat ourselves on the back: "I was a perfect gentleman! I feel good about myself."

5B5.gif


The existence (and big name publisher support) of Summer Lesson would seem to argue that we truly do value our sexual urges more so than the accomplishment of being a good educator, and that the only reason this doesn't come to light is that, until VR came along, we lacked a context wherein these tendencies could be experienced without the moral repercussions. Personally I would really prefer to believe that isn't' true.

To be clear, I'm not saying this game shouldn't exist. There are tons of games, books, and movies that don't appeal to me, and I'm fine with their existence so long as I retain the right to openly criticize them. Summer Lesson is no different. It is depressing, though, that this is what we (as consumers of video games) are being served out of the gate for VR (at least in Japan). Looking at the technology involved in creating this game makes me inspired for what could potentially be made in the future. Just off the top of my head, why not a game where you meet an alien, and you have to figure out how to communicate with the creature without language, slowly learning about its species and culture and history through makeshift modes of communication. How about a game where you help a disabled individual who can't walk or see or hear? How about a game where you are the disabled person and you experience what it's like to socialize when everyone around you is fully-abled? How about any number of creative experiences that aren't a stones' throw away from a chikan simulator?

Obviously, if VR succeeds, these games are on their way. But it would have been nice for something like that to carry the flag first, and for Summer Lesson to creep out after the fact, and under the radar.

Again, this is just my first gut-reaction to what I've seen in trailers as well as discussions I've heard on podcasts. So maybe the promotional materials are misleading. Maybe Summer Lesson will ultimately have a surprising heart of gold. Here's hoping.

vlcsnap-2016-09-13-10h27m47s407.png






edit: including this later post in the OP to try to clarify where I think the moral ambiguity stems from:

So here's a real-world example.

Say a 16 year old girl gets a job in an office building. She happens to be very attractive, and her supervisor notices this. The supervisor has lunch with his two male colleagues and says "Hey, you have to see the new intern. She's a knockout."

The supervisor decides to call a meeting with the girl and his colleagues that afternoon about "scheduling". The meeting actually has no real purpose; it's simply intended for the two other men to get a look at the girl. There is no cat calling or groping, everything is done professionally. The meeting ends, and everyone goes back to work.

Is what happened here ethical? Was the girl taken advantage of, in a way that was non-consensual, even if she was totally unaware of the motivations of the men?

I argue that Summer Lesson comes much closer to simulating this example. So is it OK because video game? The girl doesn't actually exist, so no harm done right? But again, I don't give it a free pass. I still think it's valid to question a game that is designed to evoke this type of motivation by the player. I also think it's valid to question why people would want to experience it in the first place.
 
Ok, now I'm curious how lewd this thing really gets.

I thought it's pretty tame? All the gameplay I've seen seems to suggest it's actually about building up a bond with that girl and teaching her english, and some flirting here and there.

And isn't the point of VR that you decide how to act? It's not obligated to look up her skirt.
 

Soulflarz

Banned
Person doesn't like something, judges those that do.

Read OP and actually respond to it then.

If you really don't think such things warrant any discussion at all then perhaps a message board isn't the best use of your time.

This. It's a drive-by "I dislike your thread" post solely because a lot of GAF likes the game so you're okay. Contribute the discussion, there's a lot more being said here about whether or not it's okay to humanize characters and then sexualize them immediately after.



Back to the original message,

I personally don't think through it that much because I can't really humanize a character mentally- I still think "it's a game" - it's also why I had no issues doing the genocide route in undertale. However, I can fully understand why someone who does see humanization in these characters and that we have to sexualize them mentally even though they're supposed to be normal would take offense, and I kind of have to agree with you, the criticism of the game is valid. I don't know where I stand with "annoyed at others playing it" mentality, because they could be taking it all at surface value like I normally take games if the characters aren't extremely compelling, but yeah, I can definitely say I understand your side of that argument. I don't really agree with it, but hey, I get what you're saying?
 

Verelios

Member
Now write this in Japanese, because from what I know this has no possibility of hitting western Shores, and honestly Japan won't care what we think.
 
Ok, now I'm curious how lewd this thing really gets.

I thought it's pretty tame? All the gameplay I've seen seems to suggest it's actually about building up a bond with that girl and teaching her english, and some flirting here and there.

Yeah, for as much as people are touting this as some crazy sexual thing like nothing I have seen really matches the hype.
 
If you really don't think such things warrant any discussion at all then perhaps a message board isn't the best use of your time.

Discuss away, no one is being harmed by this, you are entitled to your opinion but don't expect people to agree with your decision to judge those that have a different opinion.
 
Ok, now I'm curious how lewd this thing really gets.

I thought it's pretty tame? All the gameplay I've seen seems to suggest it's actually about building up a bond with that girl and teaching her english, and some flirting here and there.

And isn't the point of VR that you decide how to act? It's not obligated to look up her skirt.
It's not lewd at all, so this thread says more about OP than the game.

What's happening here?
The screen goes black when you move out of the play area.
 

Soulflarz

Banned
Discuss away, no one is being harmed by this, you are entitled to your opinion but don't expect people to agree with your decision to judge those that have a different opinion.

He isn't judging for a different opinion, he's judging for humanizing someone and then sexualizing them anyways and says it's wrong, because that's considered pretty creepy in normal life, and he's saying that this game is trying to replicate that normalcy and completely drop the standards that come with it. Say your different opinion, even if it is just "I don't think I feel any sort of humanization from playing this game".
 
You are straight judging people who like this stuff. Like "I feel sorry for people who like this" - why? That's some complex ya got.

VR on the consoles already has a wide breath of stuff out and coming out. Batman, Thumper, Wayward Sky, Until Dawn, and there's even an adventure game coming out (or already out) that's for the PSVR. That's not even considering how many VR games are already out for the PC that are wide in breath. It's weird to act like some game situated solely in Japan makes up the whole when it's only a small part.

In short, let people have their fun and get off your high horse.

Edit: Forgot to address Summer Lesson itself. It's not even sexualized. If you wanna draw the humanistic angle, I get that, but due to the tameness of the game, it's hard to feel disgusted all things considered .
 

mario_O

Member
It's not human though. Let people like what they want to like if it's not affecting anyone else.

Yeah this, you cant "dehumanize" a videogame character. Maybe OP thinks people who play Battlefield are mass murderers too.
 

Corpekata

Banned
It's pretty weird. Even if it's not explicit seeing all the posts about how they can't wait to download the next girl throws me off.
 

ZeroX03

Banned
If you really don't think such things warrant any discussion at all then perhaps a message board isn't the best use of your time.

You kinda rigged yourself with that unnecessary last sentence. It's only going to detract from the conversation when you're not only calling out the game but the people who enjoy it for no good reason.

That said I have no opinion either way haha, I probably shouldn't be contributing.
 
Porn will carry the entire VR medium. If moral grandstanding is how you react to this harmless game, you're in for a rough and exhausting future.
 
He isn't judging for a different opinion, he's judging for humanizing someone and then sexualizing them anyways and says it's wrong, because that's considered pretty creepy in normal life, and he's saying that this game is trying to replicate that normalcy and completely drop the standards that come with it. Say your different opinion, even if it is just "I don't think I feel any sort of humanization from playing this game".

How about I respond how I wish instead of you telling me how I should, enough of the backseat modding.

He says plenty that can be considered judging a person and their choice / mindset.
 

Gemeanie

Member
And that isn't even the part that disturbs me. Personally, I think it would be easier to swallow if the game was so transparently sexual that it could be considered fantasy. Say for example this was a game solely about a sexual stereotype who exists for no other reason than to flirt with the player. If it were strip poker for example, or even a girlfriend simulator, my reaction would be "Well, that's not for me, but I can see why someone would want to experience that. So be it."
What, your problem is the girl is too real and not sexual enough?
Sounds like you're the one 'dehumanizing' the character here, but you can wait for DOAX3 VR mode
 
I covered this in the OP. If it were outright lewd it wouldn't be nearly as creepy.
I did read the OP. I find it hard to respond because I feel you're talking about a different game from the one I'm seeing. Which brings me back to what I said in what you quoted.
Now write this in Japanese, because from what I know this has no possibility of hitting western Shores, and honestly Japan won't care what we think.

It just got announced with English subtitles, so I wouldn't be so sure
 

RetroDLC

Foundations of Burden
Different cultures, dude. Something like Dead or Alive Xtreme 3 that aims at a softcore market is far more creepy than Summer Lesson, which is more for the novelty of interacting with a virtual friend.
 

cyberheater

PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
What's happening here?

The dude is desperately trying to look up the girls skirt and the game doesn't let him.


I don't mind that it's a voyeuristic sexual grooming simulator that has the Jimmy Saville badge of approval but lets not pretend it's not.
 

Soulflarz

Banned
How about I respond how I wish instead of you telling me how I should, enough of the backseat modding.

He says plenty that can be considered judging a person and their choice / mindset.

I mean you can reply however you want obviously, but I'm free to say it's not really a fair response to the OP if you're just giving a one sentence reply to a complex topic he gave. Not really important though, so lets move on, it's not really worth either of us being annoyed at each other, apologies for that.

re: your second part, I felt that it showed his mindset was that he humanizes game characters when he plays games and judges off of that, which others don't necessarily do.
 

1upsuper

Member
I understand and agree with a lot of your sentiments, OP. But at the end of the day, no one is going to strictly play games that valorize decent human behavior. People play games with sexual/voyeuristic content and they play games where murder is the means of advancement. I don't think it's realistic to hope that people get fired up about pretending to be disabled in a VR game. They are going to take an interest in what's not possible in life, and what's not morally possible in life. The problems you identify are symptomatic of a much larger problem, if one chooses to see it as a problem.
 

JordanN

Banned
Now write this in Japanese, because from what I know this has no possibility of hitting western Shores, and honestly Japan won't care what we think.

It kinda saddens me that this has now become a Japan thing. Or rather, games like this can only exist in Japan.

If a Western dev has an idea similar to Summer Lesson, I wouldn't want to see them scared from making it. Especially when said content looks tame.
 

Chris_C

Member
I know it's been brought up before, but games like GTA are built specifically so folks can play out insane fantasies they'd never consider in the real world. I'm not trying to excuse what Summer Lesson is or does, I suppose I'm just trying to say "it's complicated."

I'll watch a show like The Walking Dead which has no problem showing the most intense gore, but shies away from showing any sort of nudity. Shows like Spartacus on other hand had were happy to show both graphic sex and violence, and I think that's generally a healthier approach.

My initial thought when I saw Summer Lesson was "That's creepy," but it's since been refined to "it's harmless," and it is, though it is perhaps a reflection on society, and games like this (and GTA) are probably a reflection of the market for games. However, Summer Lesson exists alongside a healthy range of diverse games that don't all focus on violence and titillation, and that's healthy. Maybe. I dunno. Who does, really?

I'm rambling a bit.
 
It looks like it could be a fun VR experience, I would probably buy it if I actually had a VR device available to me. Certainly a lot more immersive than any other VR games I've seen so far, it's a good step forward for this new branch of the medium.

Edit: Oh, it looks like this is going to become one of THOSE threads. Sorry, I thought we were planning on having a mature discussion.
 

packy34

Member
It's a fantasy in the same way that shooters are a fantasy. If you're going to argue that this objectifies/dehumanizes the girl in the game, you also have to argue that you're taking real lives in FPS campaigns.

The truth is - and we've known this for a long time - the vast majority of gamers are able to separate fantasy from reality. There is no reason to judge anyone solely for liking this (or not liking it).
 

Dylan

Member
You kinda rigged yourself with that unnecessary last sentence. It's only going to detract from the conversation when you're not only calling out the game but the people who enjoy it for no good reason.

That said I have no opinion either way haha, I probably shouldn't be contributing.

I actually agree. I'll edit that part out in order to steer this thread away from it becoming about whether or not I personally should be embarassed for people who buy the game, and more about the moral grey area that many people may not consider at first glance.

That said, I still reserve my right to be embarrassed for people who are genuinely excited to pretend to pretend to be excited about tutoring a young schoolgirl.
 
That said, I still reserve my right to be embarrassed for people who are genuinely excited to pretend to pretend to be excited about tutoring a young schoolgirl.

So you edit it out but instead double down on it in a different post.

This thread will go just great

That you think you can judge a person for wanting to play this game makes it hard to take you seriously.

I want to play this because I know it is not real. Games enable me to experience all kinds of things that I would never want to do in reality. It says nothing about me besides the fact that I can separate games from reality more than you.

How will we ever be able to explore the full potential of VR if this is already something that goes "too far"?
 

Soulflarz

Banned
That said, I still reserve my right to be embarrassed for people who are genuinely excited to to pretend to pretend to be excited about tutoring a young schoolgirl.

welp nevermind you just doubled down on your small tangent that implied disdain instead of the original topic you had made.
 

AALLx

Member
That said, I still reserve my right to be embarrassed for people who are genuinely excited to pretend to pretend to be excited about tutoring a young schoolgirl.

Well, I'm embarrassed of judgemental people who are incapable of separating reality from fiction.
 

PAULINK

I microwave steaks.
I really don't understand, why put so much thought into a game that you are not interested in? A simple "it's not my type of game" would do.
 

panty

Member
That said, I still reserve my right to be embarrassed for people who are genuinely excited to pretend to pretend to be excited about tutoring a young schoolgirl.

Okay. I feel sad for you. It's a videogame and thus not real so I don't care if the subject is tutoring a schoolgirl and some people want to "play" this.
 

Alx

Member
player[/I] to dehumanize this girl, mentally, and secretly. When the student says "We went to the pool, wanna see a picture?" - the suggestion doesn't seem to be "This girl is flirting with you." but rather "this girl is oblivious to the sexual suggestions created by the scenario, and you, dear player, are reaping the benefits." In a real world scenario, surely, there would be some tinge of guilt, or at least an uncomfortable feeling as we ponder our motivations for being there in the first place. Is the fact that this is VR supposed to negate said guilt? Is this the same sense of fantastic escapism that we feel when we jack cars and shoot people in GTA? I'm not so sure.

That's hardly a new trope in culture :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingenue_(stock_character)

The ingénue is often accompanied with a romantic side plot. This romance is usually considered pure and harmless to both participants. In many cases, but not all, the male participant is just as innocent as the ingénue is. The ingénue is also similar to the girl next door archetype.

One could argue that the fact that we're dealing with a schoolgirl is creepy indeed (but that's Japan for you), but the naive and unvoluntary flirtation itself isn't really. You could find examples in many TV shows of naive and innocent characters being used for sexual double-entendre.
 
I actually agree. I'll edit that part out in order to steer this thread away from it becoming about whether or not I personally should be embarassed for people who buy the game, and more about the moral grey area that many people may not consider at first glance.

That said, I still reserve my right to be embarrassed for people who are genuinely excited to pretend to pretend to be excited about tutoring a young schoolgirl.

This post made me embarrassed
 

ponpo

( ≖‿≖)
Zzzz. At least wait for something less tame, which will no doubt come, before writing these cookie cutter "Japanese stuff is '''''''''''creepy''''''''''''''" posts. The majority of people playing it seem to be laughing throughout, not engaging in some kind of perverse fantasy.
 

Squire

Banned
That's an excellent write-up, OP.

I do think it's off-putting and for the same reason a lot of this material is. It's not that it's sexual, it's that it's dishonest about that fact.
 

anothertech

Member
I don't see how this game can be considered anything other than fantasy.

Looking at it as anything more is just trying to hard IMO. The more you humanize the characters in the fantasy the more emotion will be elicited. That's really it.

Same exact situation in s GTA game. The more humanized and well written the subject matter, the more attached we get to the characters and world. But everything about the game is just chaotic fantasy fun. That's all there is to it.

There's nothing wrong with making a fantasy more humanized experience.

And Nobody is going to make a rewarding realistic 'teacher simulator' in VR because no one cares about that.
 

wildfire

Banned
It's not human though. Let people like what they want to like if it's not affecting anyone else.

Did you actually process what the OP was saying? What did he/she say?


For now all I'll say is that Dylan goes off to a bad tangent by writing


The existence (and big name publisher support) of Summer Lesson would seem to argue that we truly do value our sexual urges more so than the accomplishment of being a good educator, and that the only reason this doesn't come to light is that, until VR came along, we lacked a context wherein these tendencies could be experienced without the moral repercussions. Personally I would really prefer to believe that isn't' true.

My biggest problem with this is that it is so flawed it's distracting from earlier points that are made that are hard to determine as wrong. He/she is struggling with trying to determine if Capcom's motivation is to slight the educating profession and (s)he speaks about it as if it is a trend when VR game design has been going off in many different directions. It's too soon for that.

I would prefer to focus on what this specific game asks of the player to do and how it has the potential to create some rot in our morals.
 
Top Bottom