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Tencent on an all-out war with Steam in China which is part of Asia

A

Awful Falafel

Banned
dave is ok said:
Honestly, compare Tencent's League of Legends F2P model with Valve's Dota 2 F2P model.

Tens of thousands of hours required to unlock all champions vs. all unlocked from the moment you install.

Why would you want more Tencent in your life?
Click to expand...

In an ideal world the more consumer friendly business model would be the one that succeeds in the market but LoL dominating in Asia and Dota 2 flailing there is directly due to Valve's lack of effort in the region. Why play where all your friends aren't after all? Weak marketing and community support lost Valve tons of money, let's hope they don't repeat the same mistake in other games too.

In my ideal world MOBAs wouldn't exist at all and Valve beat Blizzard to the card game punch and made TF2 wizard poker.
 
Caffeine

Caffeine

Member
I have read many after posts and I agree on many aspects. I know who tencent is i've actually been keeping an eye on the company since 2007ish and they have their hands everywhere. Now there were things i was not aware of like the force installs of such and I have not used the WeGame client or predecessors to know features and such I know they have streaming or something to twitch? That was just pure speculation that they would have better features than steam because other store fronts do bring some interesting things ie origin/uplay that would be great if steam followed or did their own take on.

I think it is a shitty practice, but I also think steam has lots of room for improvement ui, what is approved onto the store (which they are). In some shape or form I think some aspects here could use more elaboration. Rocket league has sold a shit ton on steam, its also only removed from sale in asia ? (people who own it can still redownload it many games get delisted from steam store front) I don't think they would move this toward their world wide client, but thats just speculation.

The developers of rocket league have stated they are open to cross play That would need more details for the asian market.

Its definitely something to watch over the years and see how this plays out.
 
M

MUnited83

For you.
Evolution of Metal said:
Tencent could bring the most wanted Asian games to the western markets. That is an upside and it would help their client compete with Steam.

Origin has better features: games support partial download, sleeker and faster UI, chatbox which doesn't color both parties blue and lump them in the same corner, better voice chat, preview for game keys, trials, free games on the house... Tencent would hit the same brick wall without a massive amount of the exclusive content regardless of the quality of the launcher.

There can be no better platform selling point because Steam has all core features and most importantly everyone is on it, it is like suggesting making a facebook or twitter competitor with improvement.
Click to expand...
Steam already supports partial download , blame Devs for not using it. Originally got their UI completely fucked up with their recent updates so that's out too. Free games? I can tell you right now you can get more free games on Steam in 6 months than you would get in 2 years of on the house program. Trials? Those are up to the game publishers, they can already do trials on Steam. Or do you want Valve to force Devs to offer trials? Because not even EA forces Devs to offer trials. They only offer trials on their own games.... Do you want Valve to offer trials for CS GO? for Dota? Wut
 
D

Durante

Member
dude said:
Man, if there is one thing PC gaming was missing it's bullshit exclusivity deals!
Click to expand...
Apparently some people really do make that argument.

I can't fathom it. At all.

If Steam actually was that horrible it should be trivial to compete by offering a better service rather than by moneyhatting exclusives.

GearFourth said:
Sure but you'll see alot of them like they were paid to stand up for and very Pro-Steam to the end like Durante for example same ones who's really against other western storefronts on PC like Origin, GOG, UWP and that Steam should be the only one taking control of the PC gaming market
Click to expand...
Stop making shit up.

Please feel free to search my full post history for my actual opinion on GoG, Origin, Uplay and other PC platforms like Battle.net, all of which I use. Or even EA download manager, which I also used and which actually prompted me to post on GAF back then about how shit Steam's download speeds were at the time, comparatively. It's all a matter of public record.
I can't help it that Steam is, at this point, an almost perfect platform for what I personally desire in my PC gaming, and incredibly far ahead of all competitors.

UWP is an entirely different matter since it endangers the very foundation of what it means to be a PC game -- not because of its store. (I bought plenty of GFWL titles)

sprinkles said:
I buy 80% of my Steam games outside of Steam because Steam allows competition and many games are cheaper (outside of the big sales) on other storefronts. I use Steam features like In-Home-Streaming and Big Picture mode for most of my time playing PC games, both features do not exist on Origin, UPlay etc.
Click to expand...
Pretty much. That and the Steam controller rebinding API. And SteamVR.
 
I

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
pretty done said:
Already forgot about Dead Rising being W10 store timed exclusive eh?

MS is not exempt. They are awful as well when it comes to this anti-consumer bs.
Click to expand...

There's a difference between that, and literally taking a game already on a platform and deleting it just so only you can have it available. It would be like in your example, MS doing a deal with Activision Blizzard where all Overwatch PS4 copies must be destroyed and delisted from PSN because they threw money to make it exclusive to their ecosystem even though it was a game already out and thriving on different communities.

MS don't even try and make Minecraft exclusive and they own that themselves.
 
T

Tagyhag

Member
opricnik said:
If buying exclusives such anti move and not competiting then what about early days of xbox and microsoft
Click to expand...

There's a difference between funding development of games for exclusivity and "That's a nice completed game you got there, we'll give you money and you take it out of every store and only put it on ours."
 
A

Armaros

Member
Awful Falafel said:
In an ideal world the more consumer friendly business model would be the one that succeeds in the market but LoL dominating in Asia and Dota 2 flailing there is directly due to Valve's lack of effort in the region. Why play where all your friends aren't after all? Weak marketing and community support lost Valve tons of money, let's hope they don't repeat the same mistake in other games too.

In my ideal world MOBAs wouldn't exist at all and Valve beat Blizzard to the card game punch and made TF2 wizard poker.
Click to expand...

Domestic monopolistic giant of a company vs foreign company that must partner with a domestic company.

Anyone expecting anyone beating Tencent on their home turf is fucking cooling themselves.
 
G

GhostTrick

Banned
Durante said:
Apparently some people really do make that argument.

I can't fathom it. At all.

If Steam actually was that horrible it should be trivial to compete by offering a better service rather than by moneyhatting exclusives.

Stop making shit up.

Please feel free to search my full post history for my actual opinion on GoG, Origin, Uplay and other PC platforms like Battle.net, all of which I use. Or even EA download manager, which I also used and which actually prompted me to post on GAF back then about how shit Steam's download speeds were at the time, comparatively. It's all a matter of public record.
I can't help it that Steam is, at this point, an almost perfect platform for what I personally desire in my PC gaming, and incredibly far ahead of all competitors.

UWP is an entirely different matter since it endangers the very foundation of what it means to be a PC game -- not because of its store. (I bought plenty of GFWL titles)

Pretty much. That and the Steam controller rebinding API. And SteamVR.
Click to expand...



It's crazy that people imagine some sort of "platform shilling" or "fanboy war" about a unified platform. It's not about brand or whatsoever, it's about where it's more convenient to play.
 
S

shintoki

sparkle this bitch
This isn't good. It's Tencent and the Chinese government. One ain't moving without the other. This is one of the worst case scenarios for gaming, since companies already have to jump through hoops to get released in China not found elsewhere. It's basically saying you can't sell in the largest market in the world, unless you use us. And it will backtrack outside. 100% sure. This isn't competition.
 
C

Candescence

Member
It's maddening that people think buying exclusives and removing them from existing clients (therefore fucking over existing consumers) is good for competition. I don't even. Also, GearFourth devolving into tinfoil hat nonsense is sad and hilarious.

I'm personally more worried about Tencent's own dominance in China, which is partly due to the Chinese Communist Government greatly favoring local companies. If Tencent really wanted to, they could pull some strings and kill Steam in China completely. That's far worse than any "monopoly" Steam possesses. Foreign companies have a hard enough time in China as it is, Steam can't really compete with Tencent as long as China's government is more than happy to give local companies unfair disadvantages or even do everything in their power to kill foreign competitors, that is not a good thing and anyone who thinks otherwise is a lunatic.
 
R

Ratros

Member
Somehow I feel that our discussion would move in a totally different direction if Tencent is not a Chinese company.

I do not intend to imply any variant of double standard; I was merely saying that as a business entity Tencent is entitled to try out any new strategy (w/in the legal boundaries, of course) to secure their market share. If they have ambitions tapping into the western world, why not give them a go? Steam is a billion-dollar, time-proven, robust and mature business, it should be able to survive competitions.
 
A

Armaros

Member
Ratros said:
Somehow I feel that our discussion would move in a totally different direction if Tencent is not a Chinese company.

I do not intend to imply any variant of double standard; I was merely saying that as a business entity Tencent is entitled to try out any new strategy (w/in the legal boundaries, of course) to secure their market share. If they have ambitions tapping into the western world, why not give them a go? Steam is a billion-dollar, time-proven, robust and mature business, it should be able to survive competitions.
Click to expand...

Tencent is one of the largest tech companies on the planet, backed by the Chinese government. They are THE largest tech company in Asia.

The Chinese government protectionist dogma is widely known and has felled bigger companies then Valve. See Google, Facebook.
 
D

Durante

Member
Ratros said:
Somehow I feel that our discussion would move in a totally different direction if Tencent is not a Chinese company.
Click to expand...
I really don't think so.

Moneyhatting games to be removed from alternative platforms is an utterly shite way to "compete" regardless of who does it.
 
B

BudokaiMR2

Member
opricnik said:
If buying exclusives such anti move and not competiting then what about early days of xbox and microsoft
Click to expand...

I hate to be rude but if you don't know the difference then your opinion really isn't worth much in this discussion.

This is a case of buying the rights to a game already available and deleting it from a store and adding it to their own.

Early Xbox era Microsoft was funding games and creating experiences that wouldn't have existed otherwise.

Please, go ahead and point me to the Dream cast versions of Jet Set Future, Panzer Dragoon Orta, and GunValkyrie. That timeline has to be better than this one.
 
A

Awful Falafel

Banned
Armaros said:
Domestic monopolistic giant of a company vs foreign company that must partner with a domestic company.

Anyone expecting anyone beating Tencent on their home turf is fucking cooling themselves.
Click to expand...

Valve had shown success without home field advantage before by tailoring things to the market. Look at their success in eastern Europe and South America, fair pricing and good service earned them big wins in piracy heavy regions.
 
WaterAstro

WaterAstro

Member
GrimmGrinn said:
Oh god please don't.
Can't even play/download Path of Exile from Steam because BS like this and lost all my progress.
Click to expand...

If you can play a game without Steam, you should, and then link it to Steam like it's a non-Steam game.

Path of Exile support might be able to help you recover your account though.
 
A

Armaros

Member
Awful Falafel said:
Valve had shown success without home field advantage before by tailoring things to the market. Look at their success in eastern Europe and South America, fair pricing and good service earned them big wins in piracy heavy regions.
Click to expand...

You know nothing about China if you think that matters.

Google and Facehook had to bow to the Chinese government fucking them over and favoring domestic counterpart companies.

You think Valve, which are much much smaller can even hope to stop one of the largest Chinese corporations from doing what they want? Backed by the government?

If they wanted to, china could just ban steam and there is nothing to be done about it,
 
C

Candescence

Member
Awful Falafel said:
Valve had shown success without home field advantage before by tailoring things to the market. Look at their success in eastern Europe and South America, fair pricing and good service earned them big wins in piracy heavy regions.
Click to expand...

Eastern Europe and South America, last I checked, also doesn't have the obscene protectionist policies and blatant favouritism of local companies China has (in spite of China claiming that they're open to foreign competition). It's so bad that the likes of Google and Facebook can't properly compete.
 
M

Mrbob

Member
Armaros said:
We want Tencent to do anti-consumer things to whip Valve into shape and do what, somehow be more pro-consumer while we just supported a company doing anti-consumer things in the name of 'competition'?

This logic doesn't work.
Click to expand...

I'm fairly certain those saying this is "competition" are console fanboys who have no idea how Steam works or that you can actually buy Steam games outside of steam at a lower price point.
 
A

Abounder

Banned
Inevitable, and something Valve hopefully has some strategies for. All I can think of is making more exclusive content of their own ala Blizzard (who still has to make all sorts of deals just to do esports in China IIRC)
 
A

Armaros

Member
Abounder said:
Inevitable, and something Valve hopefully has some strategies for. All I can think of is making more exclusive content of their own ala Blizzard (who still has to make all sorts of deals just to do esports in China IIRC)
Click to expand...

All foreign companies must make deals with domestic ones to operate in China. It would take massive leverage to avoid that rule.

Blizzard and valve aren't even close to big enough to avoid it.
 
A

Awful Falafel

Banned
Armaros said:
You know nothing about China if you think that matters.

Google and Facehook had to bow to the Chinese government fucking them over and favoring domestic counterpart companies.

You think Valve, which are much much smaller can even hope to stop one of the largest Chinese corporations from doing what they want? Backed by the government?

If they wanted to, china could just ban steam and there is nothing to be done about it,
Click to expand...

Candescence said:
Eastern Europe and South America, last I checked, also doesn't have the obscene protectionist policies and blatant favouritism of local companies China has (in spite of China claiming that they're open to foreign competition). It's so bad that the likes of Google and Facebook can't properly compete.
Click to expand...

Ok ok guys, I concede that China is a unique situation that is far from being a fair playing field but I still contest that Valve dropped the ball with Dota 2. Would it have mattered in the end with the cards stacked against them? Maybe not but that doesn't mean they should just give up on the region. This situation in particular counts on developers taking the deal or not. Surely Valve's reputation and relationships with these devs should hold some sway, right?
 
S

ScatheZombie

Member
kurahador said:
What the fuck?? Why are these company agree with this???
Click to expand...

WeGame is massively more popular in China than Steam. It's close the equivalent of signing an exclusivity deal with Steam and not putting your games on GoG, in terms of Chinese market share currently.

Western gamers generally don't realize just how massive Tencent is or how much control only a handful of Chinese publishers have over the Chinese market. Generally speaking, if you want to release a western game in China, you go through them or you fail miserably - even WoW has a Chinese publishing partner.
 
G

GrimmGrinn

Member
WaterAstro said:
If you can play a game without Steam, you should, and then link it to Steam like it's a non-Steam game.

Path of Exile support might be able to help you recover your account though.
Click to expand...

Can't, it redirect me to GArena PoE instead of GGG PoE.
I used to play with GGG PoE, then link the acc to Steam, now I can't play with my account anymore since GArena and GGG are separate.

I suppose I could ask GArena Support for acc migration, but it's seems like too much of a hassle. Ah well.

Hope this doesn't affect South East Asia tho.
 
4

4Tran

Member
Ratros said:
Somehow I feel that our discussion would move in a totally different direction if Tencent is not a Chinese company.
Click to expand...
Most of the discussion is about exclusivity, and not about Tencent being Chinese, so no.

Awful Falafel said:
Valve had shown success without home field advantage before by tailoring things to the market. Look at their success in eastern Europe and South America, fair pricing and good service earned them big wins in piracy heavy regions.
Click to expand...
If you think that that compares at all to how tough it can be for foreign companies to compete in China, I've got a bridge to sell you. If you don't have a big Chinese company to cheerlead for you, you're going to get stomped by a local competitor.

Armaros said:
All foreign companies must make deals with domestic ones to operate in China. It would take massive leverage to avoid that rule.

Blizzard and valve aren't even close to big enough to avoid it.
Click to expand...
Is it even possible to circumvent that rule? I can't think of any notable exceptions. Even automakers have to partner with local companies.
 
G

ghibli99

Member
Wait, so it's not a typo that RL is being removed from Steam in China and will now be exclusive on Tencent's client? Interesting that they put the burden of responsibility for that decision on Psyonix as well. Everything just feels wrong about this as an outsider looking in, even though it's probably not an uncommon business practice.
 
S

spindoctor

Member
I imagine all the people cheering this move because Valve is getting competition would be screaming bloody murder if the gloves came off and Valve also decided to compete. Like for example they could tell Psyonix that if Rocket League is removed from Steam China, it will also be removed from the global Steam store. Then Psyonix gets to choose between the Tencent China money or the rest of the global PC market.

There are so many things Valve could do (like enforcing exclusivity clauses or blocking Steam keys) to compete with other stores. I'm really glad that Valve does not subscribe to this business philosophy.
 
A

Awful Falafel

Banned
Now I'm curious about the sentiment the Chinese public has about being denied foreign entertainment. Doesn't Nintendo have zero presence there outside of the outdated iQue 3ds XL? And I hear the PS4 and Xbone were very recent developments there after years of absence so would a regression on PC cause any backlash? I mean, I'm sure the citizens are powerless to do anything but I still wonder how they feel.
 
F

FLAguy954

Junior Member
Durante said:
I don't appreciate this type of "competition". It doesn't help consumers at all but rather restricts their choices.

How is this good for anyone in any way, shape or form?

Good competition would be offering alternatives with superior feature sets that entice customers.

Taking away the option to buy specific games on specific platforms is the very definition of money-hatting, and helps no gamer.
Click to expand...

Exactly. Fuck this exclusivity bullshit.
 
T

Tagyhag

Member
Ratros said:
Somehow I feel that our discussion would move in a totally different direction if Tencent is not a Chinese company.

I do not intend to imply any variant of double standard; I was merely saying that as a business entity Tencent is entitled to try out any new strategy (w/in the legal boundaries, of course) to secure their market share. If they have ambitions tapping into the western world, why not give them a go? Steam is a billion-dollar, time-proven, robust and mature business, it should be able to survive competitions.
Click to expand...

Microsoft is a Western company.

Do you remember what happened here when they moneyhatted Rise of the Tomb Raider?

They got SHITTED on.

And not only that, the scenario wasn't as bad as this one!

1. It was a temporary exclusive
2. The game wasn't already out in other stores for other platforms.

People aren't shitting on Tencent because they're Chinese, they're shitting on them because it's ANTI-CONSUMER.
 
G

GankzyMcfly

Member
I welcome the competition. A lot of people seem to have a set in stone "In Steam we trust" attitude. I guess you guys/gals werent around for the early days of steam.
 
M

MUnited83

For you.
GankzyMcfly said:
I welcome the competition. A lot of people seem to have a set in stone "In Steam we trust" attitude. I guess you guys/gals werent around for the early days of steam.
Click to expand...
This is not competition, and Steam didn't pay for games to be removed from other stores on their early days.
Also, "early days" is a dumbass excuse. You don't get a free pass in 2017 for having a outdated client. If you want to compete, you better be up to 2017 standards.
 
Lister

Lister

Banned
GankzyMcfly said:
I welcome the competition. A lot of people seem to have a set in stone "In Steam we trust" attitude. I guess you guys/gals werent around for the early days of steam.
Click to expand...

Read the thread, there's no reason to retread stuff that has already been explained. This isn't "compeittion" of any type that is good for the consumer.


Also, for clarificaiton on my previous post: I don't think Valve should eb moneyhatting devs, but I do think they should be investing in PC games and PC gaming, EVERYWHERE.

Grab some chinese devs and support them. I think they should invest in the likes of OBsidian and InExile and partner with Sega and PAradox, to make sure the games they put out are well marketed, and continueto be of top quality, and allows them to experiement more without having to fear that a misstep = being out of business.
 
4

4Tran

Member
spindoctor said:
I imagine all the people cheering this move because Valve is getting competition would be screaming bloody murder if the gloves came off and Valve also decided to compete. Like for example they could tell Psyonix that if Rocket League is removed from Steam China, it will also be removed from the global Steam store. Then Psyonix gets to choose between the Tencent China money or the rest of the global PC market.
Click to expand...
That would be horribly stupid on Valve's part. They are where they are right now because they're a convenient place to get games. If they force people to use other marketplaces for their games, then they're the ones that stand to lose out.

Awful Falafel said:
Now I'm curious about the sentiment the Chinese public has about being denied foreign entertainment. Doesn't Nintendo have zero presence there outside of the outdated iQue 3ds XL? And I hear the PS4 and Xbone were very recent developments there after years of absence so would a regression on PC cause any backlash? I mean, I'm sure the citizens are powerless to do anything but I still wonder how they feel.
Click to expand...
PC and mobile games are vastly more popular in China than consoles are so most Chinese gamers don't care. Besides, consoles were always available on the grey market so it wasn't hard to get one if you really wanted to.
 
S

spindoctor

Member
4Tran said:
That would be horribly stupid on Valve's part. They are where they are right now because they're a convenient place to get games. If they force people to use other marketplaces for their games, then they're the ones that stand to lose out.
Click to expand...

That only happens if you assume that developers will choose other marketplaces over Steam. Do you reckon there are many third party/independent developers who would prefer to release their games on Origin/Uplay or this Tencent client over Steam?
 
S

ScatheZombie

Member
A lot of people don't seem to realize the different dynamics between the two companies.

Tencent isn't just a storefront, they are one of the biggest game publishers in China. They publish a ton of western games in the Chinese market - even games from companies that are themselves publishers in the western market. The China territory is a minefield if you don't have a Chinese publishing partner. Tencent just happens to also have a digital distribution platform.

Valve is not a publisher. In China they are just a storefront, and not even the largest one at that.

When you sign up with Tencent, you aren't just signing up to be on their storefront. They're your publisher in China. They market your game - both on their storefront and otherwise. It's also often why Chinese versions of western games seem completely different - from content censorship to monetization schemes. Because they're being published by a different company, Tencent being one of the largest.

These two scenarios aren't really the same and it's pretty clear why a game company would decide to join up with Tencent to maximize their Chinese marketing potential and sales. Valve has a pretty laid back approach to the Chinese market by comparison and offer no real additional marketing or publishing support outside of simply being on their store.

It's two dramatically different approaches.
 
4

4Tran

Member
spindoctor said:
That only happens if you assume that developers will choose other marketplaces over Steam. Do you reckon there are many third party/independent developers who would prefer to release their games on Origin/Uplay or this Tencent client over Steam?
Click to expand...
I don't think that it's worth Valve's while to put that to the test. Goodwill is possibly their most important currency, and playing hardball is one of the fastest ways to lose it.
 
R

RedSwirl

Junior Member
In the midst of all this, do consoles have any freaking chance in Asia? You'd think that market would be the best chance for consoles to grow, and I've seen PlayStation making efforts in Korea and Taiwan.
 
P

Pixieking

Banned
GankzyMcfly said:
I welcome the competition. A lot of people seem to have a set in stone "In Steam we trust" attitude. I guess you guys/gals werent around for the early days of steam.
Click to expand...

10 years is a long-time to hold a grudge, and the industry - PC gaming specifically - has changed a vast amount in that time. How about people realise the facts around Valve and Steam as it is now?
 
BigEmil

BigEmil

Junior Member
RedSwirl said:
In the midst of all this, do consoles have any freaking chance in Asia? You'd think that market would be the best chance for consoles to grow, and I've seen PlayStation making efforts in Korea and Taiwan.
Click to expand...
They try but still nowhere near close as the big markets of PC and Mobile in Asia
 
R

Rathorial

Member
Super...the "competition" is another gigantic company that can't actually compete with a better service or a unique feature.

I'm all for another PC client actively trying to court 3rd party dev interest, because god knows uPlay, Origin and Battle.net only exist to sell their maker's own games.

Paying to remove games and make them artificially exclusive though is about as anti-consumer and anti-PC as I can think though. I already don't like Tencent now, and want that practice gone from the platform.

Guess GoG is the only competition I like to Steam still. Also love the comments that act like other clients can't create features or services to compete with Steam, when they haven't even equaled the feature set of Steam. EA and Ubisoft are about as console-centric companies as I can think of, and yet their clients still don't have a Big Picture Mode equivalent.
 
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