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"Persona 5 Can't Champion Marginalized Underdogs Without Queer Characters"

https://waypoint.vice.com/en_us/art...thout-queer-characters?utm_source=wptwitterus

When marginalized outsiders come together, they can confront their powerful, privileged antagonists and change society for the better. At least, that's the point that Persona 5 is trying to make: These non-conformist high school outsiders—known as the Phantom Thieves—strike back against the shitty people in power, get justice against abusers, and change the world.

But just how representative of marginalized youth and teenage outcasts can Persona 5 really be, when the cast excludes queer characters altogether? It's an erasure that's difficult to reconcile with the game's ostensibly empowering contemporary message.

But as the game goes on, that outsider perspective becomes less of a core theme and increasingly becomes window dressing. While these characters may feel rejected, their outsider status doesn't always hold up under examination. Honor student Makoto Niijima and corporate heiress Haru Okumura may feel out of place in the world around them, but when it comes to being an outsider, their fundamentally privileged and secure positions don't give them the first idea of what it means to really be isolated and out of place.

This isn't me asking for queer characters who are hurt throughout the story, but for meaningful queer representation is a game with a modern setting and themes. After all, real-world Japan is currently struggling with acceptance for queer youth. Just this spring, Japan's Education Ministry revised their Basic Policy for the Prevention of Bullying to stipulate that "schools should prevent bullying of students based on their sexual orientation or gender identity." While this policy represents progress in Japan, it also shows how the country is still catching-up to the problems confronting queer students. Yet this is one aspect of life in modern Japan that Persona 5 doesn't want to capture

Worth reading. There are some spoilers in the article.
 
Didn't Persona 4 have a gay character? I don't think it should be a requirement that a game about marginalizaed youth has to have an LGBTQ character.
 
Didn't Persona 4 have a gay character? I don't think it's a requirement that a game about marginalizaed youth has to have an LGBTQ character.

Nah that's the thing. P4 very much sidestepped the whole thing. Kanji wasn't gay he was just 'confused'. Of course you can have your own interpretation but the game very much leans on him being straight in the end.

I would really like Persona to tackle these things eventually, but I don't have much faith in the writers that they'd do it well.
 
The no queer thing in 5 is just weird. It seems like one person on the team had Yusuke there and was like "Yknow, we COULD totally do this. I mean its ready right here. You can date your homeroom teacher and a shady goth doctor lady but no gay? Alright whatever"

You'd think after like 9 years they would've done it.

Didn't Persona 4 have a gay character? I don't think it's a requirement that a game about marginalizaed youth has to have an LGBTQ character.

Somewhat. Kanji could reasonably be gay and it wouldn't be a stretch, like Yusuke in 5.
 

Ray Down

Banned
Nah that's the thing. P4 very much sidestepped the whole thing. Kanji wasn't gay he was just 'confused'. Of course you can have your own interpretation but the game very much leans on him being straight in the end.

I would really like Persona to tackle these things eventually, but I don't have much faith in the writers that they'd do it well.

wyQ5ygS.png


If P5 is any indication, they aren't.
 
Kanji is ambiguous in terms of sexuality.

You can think he is or isn't.

I personally didn't think we has.

If you're talking about Kanji, I don't think he was gay.

Nah that's the thing. P4 very much sidestepped the whole thing. Kanji wasn't gay he was just 'confused'. Of course you can have your own interpretation but the game very much leans on him being straight in the end.

I would really like Persona to tackle these things eventually, but I don't have much faith in the writers that they'd do it well.

Yeah, that's the character I think. I only remember from the GB Endurance Run but I thought it was pretty clear he was gay. That was a few years ago, though.
 
wyQ5ygS.png


If P5 is any indication, they aren't.

Uggggggggggh Okama jokes are fucking awful. At least those guys only appear once in a while but still its so shit. Like its the shittiest example of "gay men are rapist predators LOL" I can think of.

You have Lala the bar owner who is cool in the same game and it makes me wonder sometimes what happens
 

Ray Down

Banned
The no queer thing in 5 is just weird. It seems like one person on the team had Yusuke there and was like "Yknow, we COULD totally do this. I mean its ready right here. You can date your homeroom teacher and a shady goth doctor lady but no gay? Alright whatever"

You'd think after like 9 years they would've done it.



Somewhat. Kanji could reasonably be gay and it wouldn't be a stretch, like Yusuke in 5.

It's so weird they let that happened but not even 1 gay option.

You can basically romance all the women aside from Sae I think, but not a single guy at all.
 

Marcel

Member
As a queer person myself I don't think Persona 5 has to do that as some sort of rule. They will include who they think works for the story. I have other media I can enjoy that features queer characters if I want to experience that type of thing.

Demanding this one-size-fits-all thing for entertainment is strange to me but many of my own queer friends partake in this behavior so it is what it is.
 
The way Ann is treated through the whole game is just... the fucking worst too. Fun game, but not half as "woke" as it thinks it is.
 

Gator86

Member
Didn't Persona 4 have a gay character? I don't think it should be a requirement that a game about marginalizaed youth has to have an LGBTQ character.

Need to sit down with this article later, but agreed. If someone is making a game about 3 teenage Muslim girls, for example, that would be super interesting and in no way require an LGBTQ character to have something of value to say.

Also, I'm not sure I trust the Persona writers to do an okay job with LGBTQ characters. All of the non-straight jokes in the series are pretty cringey, in a bad way.
 
He was bisexual if anything. His dungeon clearly hinted that he may have Attraction for same sex.

It could also be taken as a projection of his insecurities based on having feminine hobbies and how people responded to that. You could make a case either way. Like, Rise isn't literally a pole dancing stripper deep down nor does she want to be, but based on her own insecurities and how she's perceived her shadow took that form.

That said he seemed to have a crush on Naoto when they thought he was a boy, so I tend to throw my opinion with the "he's bisexual" crowd. Either way, it was never definitively stated.
 

Ray Down

Banned
Hey instead of focusing resources on a female option or doing a gay romance, in a game that has many social sim elements...

Let put money behind so many shitty animated dumb cut scene's that have fanservice.

Blah.
 

Mesoian

Member
Kanji is ambiguous in terms of sexuality.

You can think he is or isn't.

I personally didn't think we has.

Yeah...golden and Ultimax sort of...clarify. He's not.

In fact all of the interesting stuff they were doing with LGBT+ characters is pretty much undone by the end of the game. It's one of the biggest criticisms against that game.

That being said, consideirng how poorly that stuff was handled in p4, I would have no hope for a LGBT+ character being done well in P5.
 
Yeah, that's the character I think. I only remember from the GB Endurance Run but I thought it was pretty clear he was gay. That was a few years ago, though.

I mean that's it though. They make his whole introduction very much centred around him being gay, then they conclude it as no, he isn't. I can't remember if his social link had much on him working through his sexuality as much as him working on his fear of people in general, but it never really explored if someone came along who was similar to Naoto but actually a guy, if Kanji would still go for them.

But they do leave enough for you to see it how you want I suppose. It does feel like they've sidestepped the issue somewhat.

You have Lala the bar owner who is cool in the same game and it makes me wonder sometimes what happens

I honestly wanna know how the writing works for the Persona team when they can have such cool things going on at the same time as such garbage.

Pls hire me.
 

Shifty1897

Member
It's weird after dealing with the sexuality of several characters in Persona 4 in a very mature and interesting way, we'd go back to the dark ages with Persona 5.

Also, can we stop using the phrase "privileged?" No one has ever been called privileged and not taken it offensively. It doesn't foster open discussion or introspection, it undermines anything that person has ever achieved and shuts them down.
 

Mariip

Member
Nah that's the thing. P4 very much sidestepped the whole thing. Kanji wasn't gay he was just 'confused'. Of course you can have your own interpretation but the game very much leans on him being straight in the end.

I would really like Persona to tackle these things eventually, but I don't have much faith in the writers that they'd do it well.
Guys, could you pleeease play Persona 2?

they fired the writer for that game though, so you're kinda right
 
As a queer person myself I don't think Persona 5 has to do that as some sort of rule. They will include who they think works for the story. I have other media I can enjoy that features queer characters if I want to experience that type of thing.

Demanding this one-size-fits-all thing for entertainment is strange to me but many of my own queer friends partake in this behavior so it is what it is.

I think that's fair, but in the context of what P5 is about its a pretty glaring omission that there isn't an LGBT character or option. And even Fire Emblem Fates let you have an LGBT option but I think that may have just been man/man and not woman/woman. Don't remember, just remember Niles being romanceable as the male avatar.
 

Mesoian

Member
Hey instead of focusing resources on a female option or doing a gay romance, in a game that has may social sim elements...

Let put money behind so many shitty animated dumb cut scene's that have fanservice.

Blah.

It's still a japanese game.

I would be shocked if it wasn't in there.
 

Massicot

Member
The way Ann is treated through the whole game is just... the fucking worst too. Fun game, but not half as "woke" as it thinks it is.

Yep. Here's a good article on it.

http://www.zam.com/article/1453/persona-5-could-say-a-lot-more-if-it-didnt-constantly-objectify-ann

Ironically, the game then proceeds to allow you to control her for the first time, and her battle pose shows her slightly bent forward, her behind presented toward the viewer. Once the battle is over, Ann looks down at her outfit and, seeing how revealing it is, tries to cover herself in a panic. You as the player have the option of either telling her that she should just calm down or to not worry because she looks great; both options invalidate her feelings.

While all the other characters in the party appear to like or at least not mind their Phantom Thieves outfits -- since the point to their appearances in the Metaverse is that they are reflections of their true selves -- Ann clearly feels uncomfortable with hers. If her being in a skin-tight catsuit is her “true” self, then why is she so clearly not a fan of it? This discomfort is a running gag throughout the game: she’ll reiterate her dislike while traveling through the game’s recurring dungeon, Mementos; later, there’s an animated cutscene where male characters ogle Ann’s chest inside a hot car. Her discomfort is never taken as a serious issue. It’s a humorous point -- a joke.
 

Mailbox

Member
I think the article seems to have some weird misunderstanding of persona 5. It's not really about "outsiders" it's about needless social pressuring and people feeling stuck or Imprisoned from their circumstances.

This themeing isn't only to the main cast but also to every confidant in some way.

I think the statement that it "can't" advocate for breaking from social constraints and advocating for "marginalized underdogs" without some sexually marginalized character is straight up not true, but rather that it could have been better to have one or at least talk about the topic since it matches the themes.

But we all know this thread will just end up as people arguing over how "Kanji isn't really gay" for some reason
 

Dantis

Member
I'm of the opinion that they should create what they want to create. I feel like there's an idea that P-Studio (or what was P-Studio and is no more) are obligated to tackle certain themes, which seems somewhat unfair.

If they do a gay party member (and do it well), that's great. If they don't, they don't.

Persona 5 absolutely can exist without them. It does.

EDIT: And that's not even tackling that the idea of outcasts is very much set dressing for the larger theme. Most of the characters aren't the vulgar youths that were advertised, and are socially respected/admired.

Hashino chooses a larger theme and sets the game around it.
 

TheChaos

Member
Hey instead of focusing resources on a female option or doing a gay romance, in a game that has may social sim elements...

Let put money behind so many shitty animated dumb cut scene's that have fanservice.

Blah.

Shitty as it is, it's what sells over there. Dat otaku money.
 
I remember reading something about how P5's cast are supposed to be counter culture but they're all like... straight up.

It's a real shame tbh.
 

Ray Down

Banned
Yeah...golden and Ultimax sort of...clarify. He's not.

In fact all of the interesting stuff they were doing with LGBT+ characters is pretty much undone by the end of the game. It's one of the biggest criticisms against that game.

That being said, consideirng how poorly that stuff was handled in p4, I would have no hope for a LGBT+ character being done well in P5.

I basically forget most of the additional stuff from Golden (especially the fan service stuff they added), aside from Kanji wanting to fight a whole motor cycle gang for you.
 
It's still a japanese game.

I would be shocked if it wasn't in there.

I don't want to be "lol Japan" considering Japan is making tons of otome games for audiences that want that kind of stuff and has many LGBT creators making boys love/girls love but Okama stuff is a strictly Japanese form of shittiness that one would hope would have went away in the 80s
 
Guys, could you pleeease play Persona 2?

they fired the writer for that game though, so you're kinda right

From what I've heard they actually did well with LGBT there yeah! But can I play an old ass PS1 game? The answer may surprise you.

Really hope I'll push through and give them a shot sometime. Plus dontcha fight Hitler in one of the older ones?
 
I think that's fair, but in the context of what P5 is about its a pretty glaring omission that there isn't an LGBT character or option. And even Fire Emblem Fates let you have an LGBT option but I think that may have just been man/man and not woman/woman. Don't remember, just remember Niles being romanceable as the male avatar.

iirc, Fates had a man/man romance in one version of the game and a woman/woman romance in the other version. Which, is a weird way to treat sexuality. "Buy both versions to unlock all the sexualities!"
 
I read this earlier and it was a very good article!

Persona 5 comes really close to dealing with a lot of serious topics but continually let themselves down, mostly in their representation of queer characters and their treatment of some of the female characters.

Really great game, I loved every minute of it, which is why I'm also so in favor of criticisms that could help them make it even better.
 

Jeffrey

Member
So Japan likes 'yuri and yaoi' but not gays? Are there any decent articles that dive in this?

Wonder if it's like how in the US, the top searches on porn sites in conservative areas typically involve lesbians
 

VegiHam

Member
I'm just kinda resigned to not expecting Hashino to write anything queer, at this point. He clearly isn't interested or capable.

Maybe if they let the P3P female route writer- the one responsible for Mitsuru calling out Junpei's sexism and Aigis being super gay- handle Persona 6, we'll see something then.
 

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
I disagree with their take on makoto specifically. So because she lives in a big, she can't know what it means to be alone, and dying inside because of pressure to succeed?
 

Ray Down

Banned
I think that's fair, but in the context of what P5 is about its a pretty glaring omission that there isn't an LGBT character or option. And even Fire Emblem Fates let you have an LGBT option but I think that may have just been man/man and not woman/woman. Don't remember, just remember Niles being romanceable as the male avatar.

There was a woman/woman option with Rhajat, the Tharja look alike.
 
As problematic as the treatment in Persona 4 could be at times, I think I would've rather had a game that at least tried to talk about queer issues (and failed in non-trivial ways) than a game that basically ignores them altogether except for cheap jokes. And I say this as someone who really enjoyed Persona 5. Of course, Persona 2 shows that this is a false dilemma; we shouldn't have to choose between two not-so-great options.

I wonder if some of this has to do with the difference in core conflict between the two games. Persona 4 is all about understanding and accepting yourself for who you are, which includes dealing with your own identity issues; someone trying to decide if they're queer or trans is an obvious part of that (even if ultimately the game shies away from actually giving us those characters).

Persona 5 is about pressure to conform to society and feeling like you have a place of belonging amongst others. While this SEEMS like this should also be ripe for queer representation for pretty obvious reasons, I wonder if this is a particular blind spot in Japanese society (or the Persona team in the specific) where they still think of lack of queer acceptance as an individual problem, rather than a systemic one. Obviously, I'm not an expert in the culture, and it's not like I can speak from experience. But it kind of feels like outside certain niches, LGBT representation isn't really a thing that gets talked about as a hot-button topic in the same way it does in certain parts of the West. On the one hand, that probably means much less violent rhetoric around the subject from anti-LGBT people (or fewer of them, maybe); on the other hand, that could also just mean a sort of silent repression where people don't talk about shunning LGBT people but it kind of happens as a matter of course.
 

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
So Japan likes 'yuri and yaoi' but not gays? Are there any decent articles that dive in this?

Wonder if it's like how in the US, the top searches on porn sites in conservative areas typically involve lesbians

Japan is not a monolithic entity. People have different opinions on different subjects, all the time

There are pieces accepting of social justice in a way we westerners understand, and there are very conservative places as well. In terms of the law however, they are behind the west
 

Raging Spaniard

If they are Dutch, upright and breathing they are more racist than your favorite player
I agree that Persona 5 could have done better in this subject, but its silly to bring it up as a big deal since it does a better job than 90% of games out there. Its a series thats always been big on inclusion (P2 and P4 come to mind), specially coming from Japan. Dont let perfect be the enemy of good.

Its weird and it happens a lot, as soon as one game tries to do something different, people complain for it not being different ENOUGH yet no issues when most other games dont even try.
 

Marcel

Member
I think that's fair, but in the context of what P5 is about its a pretty glaring omission that there isn't an LGBT character or option. And even Fire Emblem Fates let you have an LGBT option but I think that may have just been man/man and not woman/woman. Don't remember, just remember Niles being romanceable as the male avatar.

It's an omission, sure, but Japan seems to be of two minds about how to do it as the article and people in this thread are pointing out. They have the gay predators played for laughs as well as Lala who is positively depicted.

I don't know. I've been playing Japanese games ever since I was a kid and I've just grown to not expect a whole lot of nuance where issues of queerness are concerned. The nice thing is there's so many more LGBTQ games and voices out there that you can boost those up rather than worry about what the popular kid is doing.
 

Gator86

Member
It's weird after dealing with the sexuality of several characters in Persona 4 in a very mature and interesting way, we'd go back to the dark ages with Persona 5.

Also, can we stop using the phrase "privileged?" No one has ever been called privileged and not taken it offensively. It doesn't foster open discussion or introspection, it undermines anything that person has ever achieved and shuts them down.

It's a fair point in terms of people responding defensively to specific accusations of privilege about their group, but it's not inaccurate because privilege absolutely exists and is pervasive. Pretending we live in some perfect meritocracy, when we don't to an absurd degree, is pretty disingenuous. You can only go so far trying to cater to fragility until you can't discuss a subject coherently anymore.

But all of this is slightly off topic...
 

Dantis

Member
I'm just kinda resigned to not expecting Hashino to write anything queer, at this point. He clearly isn't interested or capable.

Maybe if they let the P3P female route writer- the one responsible for Mitsuru calling out Junpei's sexism and Aigis being super gay- handle Persona 6, we'll see something then.

Azusa Kido. She's gone with Hashino to Studio Zero I think.

I disagree with their take on makoto specifically. So because she lives in a big, she can't know what it means to be alone, and dying inside because of pressure to succeed?

Makoto makes it explicitly clear that she was fine internally before you came along. She's not dying inside, she just feels guilty and trod upon.
 
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